Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[amzaneok]

Also, bar Rotom-W and Tentacruel, most bulky water available in the meta tends to bring little utility to the team outside scald, defog, knock off, and SR are all very abusable moves, which should give it an edge over other bulky water, one should use Empoleon as a support over a wall I think.

The problem is that the era of bulky Water-types is close to dead. It's not the typing that it used to be. This metagame has a much larger emphasis on resistances than neutral damage, as opposed to previous generations.

Its niches are just roles that are done much better by multiple, separate Pokémon who fit on teams much better than Empoleon does, especially considering the Steel-type nerf.

While Empoleon can do a bunch of different utility roles at once, it's just not particularly great at any of them. With the wide distribution of Knock Off, Defog, and Stealth Rock, there is very little reason to force two of the three (or god forbid all) of those onto one subpar Pokémon.

alexwolf y u no liek my suggestion of Gale Wings Articuno??? qq so flavor. many hurricane. such priority. wow.

 

[Chou Toshio]

What you're looking at is what he cannot do that the other bulky waters can. The steel typing is what gives him the edge in defenses. Surprisingly, Empoleon can hold his own against Mega-Mawile (So long as that burn proc happens)

Empoleon is one of those pokemon that are not pivots but are meant to sap the opponent in some way upon the opponent switching in a counter and (most likely) get the hell out ASAP.

What you're saying makes no sense-- I literally cannot figure it out. Can I request some clear English that is easier to understand?

In any case, the issue that I'm point out is that there ARE almost NO threats that Empoleon can switch in on and do well. It doesn't matter what type of play-style you're using if the vast majority of the major Pokemon in the metagame can beat you to a pulp.

Especially if you're a defensive Pokemon-- it doesn't matter what kind of support you can bring, or even how many resistances you have-- you won't be successful if almost every Pokemon in the metagame can do massive damage to you on the switch-in.


If Empoleon takes extra turns roosting off EQ damage from switching into Gliscor, that means it'll just be force out again without having used any support moves when Gliscor just switches out to one of [almost everything in the metagame] that beats Empoleon one-on-one.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf y u no liek my suggestion of Gale Wings Articuno??? qq so flavor. many hurricane. such priority. wow.

Actually, it is a good suggestion and i will include it for the next voting round, so dw.

Also, an advice to anyone that wants to submit a theorymon. Don't suggest mindless offensive buffs. The metagame is already very offensive and we don't need more powerhouses, such as Boomburst Meloetta and Shell Smash Lapras. If you want to suggest something offensive, you should be sure that it adds something positive to the metagame and is not just one more powerful attacker. For example, Latios is a strong and fast special attacker that brings a lot to the table other than offensive presence, thanks to its good resistances, special bulk, and Defog.

For this reason, defensive buffs are more what i am looking for. Giving to not so viable Pokemon buffs that will allow them to successfully fill a defensive niche in the OU metagame. If your suggestion does that and doesn't contradict the flavor of the Pokemon, it's very likely to get slated. This doesn't mean that suggestions about offensive buffs won't get slated, just that i will be much more careful about them, and i will only pick them if they come along with some utility instead of sheer force.

So, please before submitting your suggestion, take a second to think about how this suggestion will fit in the metagame. This thread is not so that we can talk about mindless buffs to random Pokemon, but for us to find ways to improve the OU metagame by giving buffs to not so viable or completely unviable Pokemon.

 

[Salemance]

alexwolf y u no liek my suggestion of Gale Wings Articuno??? qq so flavor. many hurricane. such priority. wow.

He also gets a heck of a lot of suggestions (heck I see five new ones a day on his page). Takes time to sort em and pick what's what.

Call me crazy, but I am thinking of Roost Empoleon as a little more.....explosive I guess.

With the ability to now heal more than 6% of his health each turn, he could take an offensive in vein of Bulky SD Scizor (except with Agility or so for boosting and Speciap attacks obviously). I realize it might have been posted already, but it could be interesting to see. Sadly he doesn't get a boosting move or priority (specially based ones mind you) so it may not be the best.

Arguably I just like the idea of his defensive options as is (Water/Steel is so fun) but I wouldn't mind seeing what offensive options he could to throw people off.

EDIT: Also, I felt the need to mention this as I saw something of comparing him to other bulky waters. He, like Tentacruel, is immune to one of the most common status or ways that most have used to destroy bulky waters in the past (Toxic if you didn't know) and, unlike Tentacruel, he has the ability to heal reliably (yet Tenta does get better abilities, but that's for another day).

They may also be competing for the same slot as they both carry very common things. Being able to have great Sp Def walling (while both being a bit weak physically with Scald fixing that a bit) but Empoleon gets the ability to also set up rocks as well, thus making it harder to choose between the two of them.

That's all I got their. Carry on.

 

[alexwolf]

It's worth noting that the combo of Hydro Pump + Flash Cannon is r by only Mega Venusaur, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Keldeo, and Gyarados out of S and A ranks from the viability ranking thread. Mega Venusaur is fucked if Flash Cannon drops Mega Venusaur's SpD and can't immediately threaten back Empoleon, Manaphy is 4HKOed at worst by Hydro Pump and can't 2HKO max HP Empoleon even at +3 (without Life Orb) and takes ~50% from LO Hydro Pump if it brings Empoleon into Torrent range, and Keldeo takes 38% min from LO 252 SpA+ Empoleon's Hydro Pump, leaving only Gyarados and Rotom-W as good switch-ins, both of which are 3HKOed by Hydro Pump and have no reliable recovery. Add to this the utility that Defog brings to the table, Empoleon's ability to check some dangerous common Pokemon, such as Lati@s, Greninja, Heatran, Azumarill, and Genesect, and the great longevity provided by Roost, and you have a very useful Pokemon in your hands, with a very unique niche. That's the set i am thinking about:

Empoleon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pumo
- Flash Cannon
- Roost
- Defog / Roar

 

[Jaroda]

I can see a somewhat decent semi-stall core with Empoleon, Gliscor and Tyranitar. Tyranitar brings in sand, is specially defensive, still hits hard and can set up rocks. Gliscor absorbs status and abuses Knock Off and Toxic to rack up passive damage. Empoleon takes Water and Ice moves and can phaze out sweepers racking up more passive damage and stall with Roost. Unfortunately AV Conkeldurr kind of fucks up this core if Gliscor can't Toxic stall him.

Anyway I kind of knew that Roost wasn't what Empoleon needed to cut it in this meta, which was why I didn't throw my cote that way. He isn't bulky enough and too slow to abuse Roost. His typing is good as a pivot sometimes, but he's just underwhelming really.

 

[amzaneok]

Actually, it is a good suggestion and i will include it for the next voting round, so dw.

Also, an advice to anyone that wants to submit a theorymon. Don't suggest mindless offensive buffs. The metagame is already very offensive and we don't need more powerhouses, such as Boomburst Meloetta and Shell Smash Lapras. If you want to suggest something offensive, you should be sure that it adds something positive to the metagame and is not just one more powerful attacker. For example, Latios is a strong and fast special attacker that brings a lot to the table other than offensive presence, thanks to its good resistances, special bulk, and Defog.

For this reason, defensive buffs are more what i am looking for. Giving to not so viable Pokemon buffs that will allow them to successfully fill a defensive niche in the OU metagame. If your suggestion does that and doesn't contradict the flavor of the Pokemon, it's very likely to get slated. This doesn't mean that suggestions about offensive buffs won't get slated, just that i will be much more careful about them, and i will only pick them if they come along with some utility instead of sheer force.

So, please before submitting your suggestion, take a second to think about how this suggestion will fit in the metagame. This thread is not so that we can talk about mindless buffs to random Pokemon, but for us to find ways to improve the OU metagame by giving buffs to not so viable or completely unviable Pokemon.

ilu xoxo ♡

I suggested it because it requires more team support than Talonflame but it would have an arguably higher reward. I'd like to see a bit more of weather honestly (although I played UU last generation and I'm sure all of you who played OU are tired of the rain).

I'll start thinking about defensive changes though. I think that's a good direction for this thread in general, although I'm a bit uninspired by Roost Empoleon.

I do think a bulky attacker set like alexwolf posted would be its best bet at supporting its team. Empoleon really needs that Special Attack investment to keep from being set up on by a switch-in. I almost wouldn't even slash Leftovers on the set, either, as Life Orb really takes advantage of its new found reliable recovery.

 

[Antihaxxer]

It's worth noting that the combo of Hydro Pump + Flash Cannon is r by only Mega Venusaur

??? What ? How can Venusaur resists Steel type ?

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I can see a somewhat decent semi-stall core with Empoleon, Gliscor and Tyranitar. Tyranitar brings in sand, is specially defensive, still hits hard and can set up rocks. Gliscor absorbs status and abuses Knock Off and Toxic to rack up passive damage. Empoleon takes Water and Ice moves and can phaze out sweepers racking up more passive damage and stall with Roost. Unfortunately AV Conkeldurr kind of fucks up this core if Gliscor can't Toxic stall him.

Anyway I kind of knew that Roost wasn't what Empoleon needed to cut it in this meta, which was why I didn't throw my cote that way. He isn't bulky enough and too slow to abuse Roost. His typing is good as a pivot sometimes, but he's just underwhelming really.

AV Conkeldurr cannot KO Gliscor is it hasn't been statused. And if it has been statused, Gliscor can stall it out.

 

[amzaneok]

??? What ? How can Venusaur resists Steel type ?

It doesn't. It can just stomach Empoleon's Flash Cannon easily with its bulk, unless Empoleon scores a Special Defense drop on Venusaur.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Water / Steel isn't much better coverage than Fire / Steel, and we all know how that goes for Heatran-- who is basically superior to Empoleon in every stat, and with an arguably better defensive type (it's better).

Empoleon's not doing damage that's at all impressive without max SpA and a boosting item-- but with its mediocre defenses and god-awful speed, it's not holding up to anything without heavy investment into HP and defense/spD.

I think if you try to make some weird offensive set with Flash Cannon, you are definitely barking up the wrong tree in terms of trying to make this OU viable.

Besides Alex, you know that the only viable offensive Empoleon in history was Agility booster, which isn't going to break through the meta with flash cannon (and no ice beam), and really has almost nothing to do with Roost.



Also, I'd like to say that the idea of making theorymons only with the perception of somehow "making the metagame better" is incredibly pretentious-- as what "makes the metagame better" is also completely subjective. Not to mention-- if we're only talking about theorymons we design to have some obvious "benefit to the metagame", you've pretty much made the discussion before it's even begun, and it will progress in a predictable and boring fashion. Just saying. Besides, a good theorymon is one that's fun and interesting and drives discussion-- not one that "is good for the meta" (whatever that means).


If an idea is a brainless, offensive boost, without anything interesting or worthy of discussion, no one will vote for it-- I don't think it's necessary for the OP to only pick those ideas he sees as good for the meta from the start.

edit: Fairy Missy though, I must say is a brilliant theorymon.

Roost Empoleon is a great idea from a flavor standpoint-- but as you can see from the discussion, it's not one very good to "impact the OU meta."

 

[alexwolf]

Water / Steel isn't much better coverage than Fire / Steel, and we all know how that goes for Heatran-- who is basically superior to Empoleon in every stat, and with an arguably better defensive type (it's better).

Empoleon's not doing damage that's at all impressive without max SpA and a boosting item-- but with its mediocre defenses and god-awful speed, it's not holding up to anything without heavy investment into HP and defense/spD.

I think if you try to make some weird offensive set with Flash Cannon, you are definitely barking up the wrong tree in terms of trying to make this OU viable.

Besides Alex, you know that the only viable offensive Empoleon in history was Agility booster, which isn't going to break through the meta with flash cannon (and no ice beam), and really has almost nothing to do with Roost.



Also, I'd like to say that the idea of making theorymons only with the perception of somehow "making the metagame better" is incredibly pretentious-- as what "makes the metagame better" is also completely subjective. Not to mention-- if we're only talking about theorymons we design to have some obvious "benefit to the metagame", you've pretty much made the discussion before it's even begun, and it will progress in a predictable and boring fashion. Just saying. Besides, a good theorymon is one that's fun and interesting and drives discussion-- not one that "is good for the meta" (whatever that means).


If an idea is a brainless, offensive boost, without anything interesting or worthy of discussion, no one will vote for it-- I don't think it's necessary for the OP to only pick those ideas he sees as good for the meta from the start.

edit: Fairy Missy though, I must say is a brilliant theorymon.

Roost Empoleon is a great idea from a flavor standpoint-- but as you can see from the discussion, it's not one very good to "impact the OU meta."

Heatran doesn't have Defog and Roost, which is why the set i posted could work. Heatran also checks different Pokemon. Hydro Pump + Flash Cannon is used simply because it's the best coverage you can get with two attacking moves. It's not that Hydro Pump + Flash Cannon seperately is something special, it's the combo of good power, lack of hard counters out of the best Pokemon in OU (S and A ranks), Roost + good bulk with which Empoleon can check some common offensive Pokemon, and the utility of Defog that make this set intriguing, at least in theory. And why do you compare Empoleon's offensive role in last gen with its possible offensive role in this gen? Obviously Defog and Roost make a huge difference and could make such a set viable.

As for my view on good theorymons, it is just this, my view. I didn't say that only theorymons that fit my view will make it to the slate, only that they would be more likely to make it. And i nowhere talked about ''obvious'' benefits to the metagame, this is your intepretation. Does Roost Empoleon have an obvious benefit to the metagame? No, otherwise we wouldn't have all this discussion about what role Empoleon would take with Roost. You and other good posters are smart enough to get the subtle positives that a theorymon would bring to OU, and this is what we want in this thread, to see how each one of us finds potential uses of a theorymon into the metagame. It's not like i am asking from you to only suggest ideas that fulfill a completely specific and predetermined niche. For example, all the Pokemon that we discussed so far fell under my view of a good theorymon and still produced and are producing great discussion (exclude Mega Ampharos, which was my pick), at least imo. Fairy / Ghost Mismagius seems as a positive presence to the OU metagame because it checks dangerous Pokemon while being very manageable itself, simple as that. Does this mean that that i made the discussion before it even happened as you stated? Of course no.

Anyway, we can discuss this more on irc, so let's continue discussing Empoleon now.

 

[Mood4food77]

here's the thing with giving roost to empoleon, even with it, would we use it over something like latias? who gets defog, roost, and has a much better stab in dragon attack

it's also faster and immune to spikes, toxic spikes, and sticky web, something that empoleon unfortunately isn't, while yes, empoleon has slightly higher SpA and learns SR, it has a massive thing called 4MSS and is slow as balls while being weak to EQ

roost will definitely help empoleon but it doesn't solve the flaws that he has which is why i'm going to suggest this

Empoleon @ Air Balloon
Torrent / Modest
252 HP / 252 SpA / 6 SpD
Roost
Stealth Rock / Defog
Scald / Surf / Hydro Pump
Ice Beam / Whatever filler move you want

now that empoleon has recovery, he doesn't have a need for leftovers. Air Balloon is to help mitigate his biggest flaw in his weakness to EQ (which is everywhere). While he can defog, i think we are going to find that role is better off to something that is immune to all hazards sans SR like latias or mandibuzz (pokes who also don't have a huge problem with 4MSS), but using defog over SR actually makes it like a mega blastoise with a recovery move (something stoise really wishes he has)

removing a common weakness like EQ will help him in a lot of ways

 

[Chou Toshio]

Gotcha Alex. Thanks for the clarification on those points.

Back at Empoleon-- I was responding to your suggestion of using Flash Cannon and Water-STAB--

Both of these attacks (whether it's Steel or Water) are not known for great super effective coverage. They're known for good neutral coverage, and (while I think the list of pokes that resist both is too long) a relatively small list of resisting pokes is only possible because both of these are fairly good STAB options with decent neutral coverage.

The thing about neutral coverage STAB attacks is that they NEED power behind them to be effective. Example: There's nothing scary at all about Latias' Dragon Pulse when she's running a fully defensive set...

You won't see Water or Steel used on many Pokes that are not water or steel types themselves. What this also means is that Empoleon needs serious bite behind these attacks to make them noteworthy-- ie. SpA investment and most likely Life Orb. Add in Roost, and you only get 1 more slot.

Making a set that does ALL of the following:
a) Isn't set up fodder (can STING with its attacks, or has Roar or Toxic)
b) Has sufficient survivability (Speed or Bulk combined with defensive typing suitable for being effective in the meta)
c) Has the attacks Water-, Steel-, and Roost
d) Differentiates itself from Heatran by supplying valuable support via Defog or SR

Is unreasonable. This is what I was trying to get at.

Roost's most likely implication on Empoleon is, as stated in the very first post of this discussion-- a defensive set that supplies defog/SR support (or BOTH) while keeping up its threat level with Scald, and maybe Roar or Toxic. This is undeniably a route similar to Heatran, though not outclassed by heatran.

However, it is my opinion, stated in my earlier posts, that Empoleon's weaker defensive stats, extremely common weaknesses, and failure to be identifiable as a noteworthy counter to specific, top threats*, mean it is a poor choice even if it had reliable recovery. Reliable recovery only takes you so far when almost everything hits you super effective, and your defensive stats are a little on the weaker side of the tier.

Now if you're suggesting that offensive Empoleon sets could become more viable because of a greater viability of defensive sets... I mean, it's possible, but it still seems far-fetched imo.


*Heatran at least has Genesect and Talonflame-- and yes, I do expect a BIG Heatran drop if Genesect sees a ban)

 

[Salemance]

I personally think that this is, overall, just to make the metagame more interesting I guess. I'd rather have more options than too few (heck, I've even discussed with a few friends how much more fun if we had something competing with Gengar for a position as a ghost).

Back to Empoleon, I think his Offensive set is great example as I don't see why he shouldn't be able to run one when others often do. Did he have one that he was known for? Sure, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have other successful ones and Roost could make it much better by allowing it to heal off the residual damage from Life Orb. Truthfully I think he'd be fine, even if he is a little odd.

 

[alexwolf]

a) Isn't set up fodder (can STING with its attacks, or has Roar or Toxic)
b) Has sufficient survivability (Speed or Bulk combined with defensive typing suitable for being effective in the meta)
c) Has the attacks Water-, Steel-, and Roost
d) Differentiates itself from Heatran by supplying valuable support via Defog or SR

But those are exactly the things that the set i posted does. It's not set up fodder for nothing out of the S and A rank, not even for Manaphy. It has sufficient bulk and survivability to check Pokemon such as Greninja, Latios, Latias, CB Azumarill, and Genesect, all common offensive threats in OU. It also has all the moves you mentioned. Finally, this set differentiates itself from Heatran by walling threats that Heatran can't, having Water STAB, Roost, and Defog.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

For this reason, defensive buffs are more what i am looking for. Giving to not so viable Pokemon buffs that will allow them to successfully fill a defensive niche in the OU metagame. If your suggestion does that and doesn't contradict the flavor of the Pokemon, it's very likely to get slated. This doesn't mean that suggestions about offensive buffs won't get slated, just that i will be much more careful about them, and i will only pick them if they come along with some utility instead of sheer force.

So, please before submitting your suggestion, take a second to think about how this suggestion will fit in the metagame. This thread is not so that we can talk about mindless buffs to random Pokemon, but for us to find ways to improve the OU metagame by giving buffs to not so viable or completely unviable Pokemon.

Well if you want a Defensive Buff, how about we give (Mega) Aggron a means of reliable recovery, perhaps Slack Off, only problem is no real reliable Recovery fits Aggron, the two closest would be Slack Off and Recover, but there's always been wierd things like Dodrio flying or Cobalion learning Volt Switch, so I digress, back to Roost Empoleon.



Roost Empoleon would naturally be a niche Pokemon given the offensive nature of the Meta right now, but it would still be a solid addition to it's movepool, but the biggest problem I'd see would be spreading itself too thin. A Roost + Defog Set would only have two attacking options and would be conflicted between investment into offense so it can hit respectively hard or investment into defensive Stats so it could take a hit well, which in a more Defensive Roost Role, Empoleon would find competition between Skarm and Mandibuzz both of which sport better bulk then Empoleon who also have Roost and Defog. I see Empoleon as a interesting case, being a jack of all trades, master of none. It can be competent in several roles but not particularly outstanding at many of them.

But hey, that's my view of the matter, perhaps I'm being a idiot and missing something really obvious, feel free to enlighten me if that is indeed the case.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Fair enough.

Empoleon does have one of the best offensive stats for a Water-type in the game. To me, it's just that Water isn't the devastating attacking type it used to be. Also 252 HP Empoleon has ok bulk, but it's nothing amazing. The set you described does indeed do what you say, but its survivability will be hard pressed, Roost or no-- it can certainly sting with LO, but LO's damage, poor speed, and common weaknesses will make surviving hard.

If I were going to use Empoleon, I would also use 252 Modest LO-- might even go 3 attacks + Roost.

Still, with its resistances and good attacking power, it can probably do well enough in the mid-game, dealing out damage and checking key threats a few times. It's still shaky, and wouldn't likely make the OU list, but it's something. It wouldn't be unviable.

I wouldn't consider it a reliable Defogger compared to the speedy Lati@s or the bulkier-than-the-world Mandibuzz though.

 

[alexwolf]

I agree that it would still be a niche Pokemon even with Roost, but at least its niche would be significantly bigger. I could see it getting bumped from C rank to B- with Roost for example.

 

[amzaneok]

We have already discussed that Empoleon with Roost is not going to be a defensive or support behemoth in the metagame when it's not particularly threatening and not nearly as bulky as it needs to be. Because of that, I think it's the right direction for us to be discussing a bulky attacking set to better find a niche for the penguin with new access to Roost.

Chou is very right to be comparing this Pokémon with Heatran, as well, but the one thing (offensively, as we have talked about defensive competition already) Empoleon could really do that Heatran doesn't like to do is run Life Orb due to reliable recovery. Niches that aren't outclassed and work effectively are often what make Pokémon OU viable.

Unfortunately, I don't feel like Roost Empoleon's niches are very good.

I'll look into this a bit more to see if I can find a more interesting application of Roost, later.

 

[Chou Toshio]

For reference as to how much this thing stings:

252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 161-191 (49.6 - 58.9%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 268-316 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 203-242 (68.1 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon in Sun: 310-366 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 265-312 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 283-334 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 242-285 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 184-218 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO


It's too bad Empoleon isn't faster... Roost + 3 Attacks is really good on something that has the speed to pull it off, and Empoleon can certain manage enough power (especially if it activates torrent...)

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, Heatran and Latias are probably the two Pokemon that Empoleon would be competing with the most. Heatran as a Steel-type special wall that can burn things, set up SR, and phaze, and Latias as an offensive Defog user with reliable recovery that can check some offensive Pokemon.

I think that checking Greninja and Azumarill will be two of the main reasons to use Empoleon over the other two in your team, as both are significant offensive threats that are not easy to deal with, especially for offensive teams.

 

[Salemance]

Truthfully I don't think the point of this was to make it S rank material, but just better no? Make it to were it is thought of when teambuilding, and not completely dismissed.

Can it check Azumarill reliably though? Last I checked, a great many ran Superpower, and Empoleon may require a burn prox to activate it. And in comparison to what Chou said, it may be better if it had been a faster attacker, but with it having Torrent, could it not function extremely well as a slow attacker only to heal later on in the battle? With Torrent activated, it may make it much, much stronger (at least guaranteeing a OHKO on some).

In the comparison to said calcs, I changed Hydro Pump's Base Power to 165 to show its power after Torrent:

252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 395-465 (132.5 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 304-359 (102 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 360-425 (127.2 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 242-286 (74.6 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(The Genesect calc and Aegislash calc are sorta silly in retrospect, more as if to just show the damage possible since they were posted previously)


A slight or great improvement no?

 

[Chou Toshio]

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 530-624 (142.47 - 167.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 132-156 (35.48 - 41.93%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 352-415 (94.62 - 111.55%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO


252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 374-440 (100.53 - 118.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 93-110 (25 - 29.56%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 248-292 (66.66 - 78.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Superpower OHKO's Empoleon no matter what it does.
Azum with Waterfall will force Empoleon to immediately go for the Roost.
Belly Drum Azum doesn't fair as well, but has a chance to one-shot offensive Empoleon, and will win against defensive if it doesn't get burned or roared.

By the way, here's a breakdown of how Speciall Defensive empoleon takes hits from the meta:

S:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 268-316 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon in Sun: 225-265 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 283-334 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 134-158 (36 - 42.4%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 278-328 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 93-109 (25 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

A+
0 Atk Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 184-218 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 366-432 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 116-138 (31.1 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 326-384 (87.6 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 328-385 (88.1 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 146-172 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 114-134 (30.6 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 237-280 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 204-242 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 530-624 (142.47 - 167.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 246-290 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 318-374 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 272-322 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 410-486 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 188-222 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 260-306 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 308-366 (82.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 434-512 (116.6 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 182-216 (48.9 - 58%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 402-474 (108 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 91-108 (24.4 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega Mawhile: Knock Off and Brick Break win outright, Fire Fang fails to 2HKO without +2, and Iron Head Mawhile will have a hard time here.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 434-512 (116.6 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 272-322 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(CB or mega TTar destroy Empoleon)

Overall there are more impressive calcs than I imagined! (like SURVIVING Lando-I's Earth Power, and only being 3HKO'd by +3 Manaphy)
However, overall, you can see that it's a tough time for empoleon as expected.

 

[alexwolf]

Discussion about Roost Empoleon is over, thanks to those who participated. Here is the next slate:

• Gale Wings Articuno (amzaneok)
• Protean Porygon2 (Molk)
• Dragon / Fairy Altaria (Cshadow)
• Rattled Emboar (U-Ralph)

You have 24 hours to vote. Only vote for one theorymon, and the theorymon with the most votes wins. Don't forget to bold your votes, otherwise they won't count. In the case of a tie, we will vote again for the two theorymon that tied, with another day time limit. Happy voting!

And here is the merit behind each theorymon:

Gale Wings Articuno: Priority flying moves are amazing, as Talonflame has showed us, even on a Pokemon that would otherwise have absolutely no viability in OU. Articuno's Specs Modest Hurricane hits as hard as Adamant CB Talonflame's Brave Bird, but unlike Talonflame, Articuno can get past checks and counters such as Tyranitar and Heatran much easily with the appropriate Hidden Power. Also, Articuno hits the metagame on its special side, which is certainly less prepared for. Finally, Articuno has really nice bulk, which it can take advantage of with priority Roost while still hitting hard with a Life Orb, checking Pokemon such as Landorus, Mega Venusaur, Garchomp, and Mamoswine.

Protean Porygon2: With Protean, Porygon2 becomes an excellent tank, getting a 50% boost to whichever move it uses after tanking a hit, so it will finally be able to OHKO the Pokemon it walls. Also, thanks to excellent bulk, movepool, and Recover, Porygon2 will be the first Protean user in OU that can take advantage of this ability defensively, which is very intriguing to say the least.

Dragon / Fairy Altaria: Walling both Mega Charizard formes at the same time? Yes please. Excellent support moves in Heal Bell, Perish Song, Roar and reliable healing in Roost give it a lot of potential defensively. Remember how Clefable turned from a good RU Pokemon to a good OU pokemon with its new Fairy-typing? Altaria has similar potential with its good bulk, reliable recovery, and excellent support options.

Rattled Emboar: Emboar can switch into U-turn from Pokemon such as Genesect and Scizor, get a Speed boost and do some late-game cleaning. After a Speed boost, it speed ties with Greninja, while also being able to KO the most common revenge killer, Talonflame, with Sucker Punch after SR. It can also check Bisharp while getting a Speed boost from Knock Off, which is great. In general, tanking easily U-turns and Knock Offs to do some late-game cleaning, while still having ok wallbreaking potential early-game, and checking some popular Pokemon will probably make Emboar a viable and unique choice in OU.