That's why I said even if it's not viable. English - do you speak it?
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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That's why I said even if it's not viable. English - do you speak it?
Discussion about Salamence is over. I am going to try another system that Red Cat suggested, in order to make sure that voters can be more informed about each theorymon before voting. In this voting round, we will discuss the whole slate for 4 days before we vote. You can discuss about any of the 4 theorymon you like, as long as you have something contructive and useful to say. Obviously, as the discussing part will happen before we vote this means that there will be no discussion part of the winner after the voting is over, but the winner will still go to the archive and in the ladder of the next month.
Speaking about the ladder, here is what i will do, because the PS stuff has been kinda busy and the ladder for this month will be very late as you can tell. I will keep the theorymons of the past month for the next month too, which means that the Theorymon ladder of May will have both the theorymons of March and April.
Let's go to our slate now, which will consist of all the theorymon that made it in the second place in the past voting results. So we have:
Speaking about the ladder, here is what i will do, because the PS stuff has been kinda busy and the ladder for this month will be very late as you can tell. I will keep the theorymons of the past month for the next month too, which means that the Theorymon ladder of May will have both the theorymons of March and April.
Let's go to our slate now, which will consist of all the theorymon that made it in the second place in the past voting results. So we have:
- Snow Warning Kyurem (Chesnaught)
- Water Shuriken Cloyster (Thisisafake name)
- Poison Heal Goodra (Treecko)
- Refrigerate Avalugg (amzaneok)
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Snow Warning Kyurem - If I'm not mistaken, Chesnaught's reasoning for his submission was to increase the viability of hail? If that's so, I don't think having another hail setter will give the archetype a boost; it doesn't fix the fact that hail abusers are all Ice-type, which as we all know is a terrible defensive typing. In addition, I'm struggling to think of non-Ice-type Pokemon that can abuse the weather without being hurt by its residual damage. So unfortunately I don't think this has that much competitive merit outside of giving Kyurem 100% accurate Blizzards, which admittedly is a niche over Kyurem-B. I just don't know whether it's a good niche.
Water Shuriken Cloyster - Water Shuriken gives Cloyster STAB priority and prevents it from getting revenge-killed easily. While it's a cool buff, I don't think this is that good for discussion outside of seeing what Cloyster can now force out.
Poison Heal Goodra - I like it. It gives Goodra reliable recovery and prevents it from being hit by status effects. Giving Goodra more longevity would likely allow it to check special attackers more effectively while still packing offensive presence.
Refrigerate Avalugg - I'm just not sure if unblockable Rapid Spin will give Avalugg a new lease at life. It's definitely a unique niche and it already has a bunch of cool things going for it, but unfortunately Ice is just a horrible defensive typing. Its low Sp. Def doesn't give it any favors because the two ghosts it's supposed to spin against can still beat it by spamming Shadow Ball. In addition, by patching its Sp. Def with Assault Vest, you lose out on the one thing that prevents it from getting worn down: Recover. So yeah, it doesn't look that much more viable than before.
Despite my criticisms of the other options, I actually like all of them except Avalugg.But I'm going with Poison Heal Goodra for this round. Apparently we're not voting yet. More discussion though so yay?
Water Shuriken Cloyster - Water Shuriken gives Cloyster STAB priority and prevents it from getting revenge-killed easily. While it's a cool buff, I don't think this is that good for discussion outside of seeing what Cloyster can now force out.
Poison Heal Goodra - I like it. It gives Goodra reliable recovery and prevents it from being hit by status effects. Giving Goodra more longevity would likely allow it to check special attackers more effectively while still packing offensive presence.
Refrigerate Avalugg - I'm just not sure if unblockable Rapid Spin will give Avalugg a new lease at life. It's definitely a unique niche and it already has a bunch of cool things going for it, but unfortunately Ice is just a horrible defensive typing. Its low Sp. Def doesn't give it any favors because the two ghosts it's supposed to spin against can still beat it by spamming Shadow Ball. In addition, by patching its Sp. Def with Assault Vest, you lose out on the one thing that prevents it from getting worn down: Recover. So yeah, it doesn't look that much more viable than before.
Despite my criticisms of the other options, I actually like all of them except Avalugg.
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Poison Heal is pretty neat for Goodra since he doesn't learn any reliable recovery move. This gaves him an easier time with statuts, increasing his longevity for more special walling and stuff. Somewhat a special version of Gliscor ... Only slower but more offensive.
As deepbluejeer said, despite the fact that Refrigerate is appealing on Avalugg, ice typing and piss poor special defense aren't a saving grace since all the ghosts in OU can pretty much KO him. But I must admit, this is still pretty cool.
Water Shuriken sure is a cool toy for Cloyster for revenge killing frail things without the speed of Shell smash.
As deepbluejeer said, despite the fact that Refrigerate is appealing on Avalugg, ice typing and piss poor special defense aren't a saving grace since all the ghosts in OU can pretty much KO him. But I must admit, this is still pretty cool.
Water Shuriken sure is a cool toy for Cloyster for revenge killing frail things without the speed of Shell smash.
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Ah well, since alexwolf says discussion for every theorymon is allowed, then I'll talk about some sets:
Kyurem:
Cloyster:
Kyurem:
Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest / Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor
The appeal of this set is obviously revenge-killing using stupidly high-powered moves. In particular, this can act as a cool check to Mega Charizard Y, coming in on something like SolarBeam and canceling out Zard's Drought. In Hail, Fire Blast is only a 2HKO, while Kyurem can outspeed and 2HKO with Blizzard:
252 SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 160-189 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 175-207 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
Stuff like Landorus and Garchomp are obviously KO'd if they're not Scarfed. Kyurem has enough bulk to live Stone Edge from Garchomp and KO back with Blizzard:
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 238-282 (60.8 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kyurem is also safe from Landorus as long as it doesn't come in on Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 250-294 (63.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
95 speed is actually pretty decent for a Scarfer, neatly outrunning Adamant Scarf Excadrill (even if Modest) and Landorus-T (if Timid). So I can see it functioning pretty well.
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest / Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor
The appeal of this set is obviously revenge-killing using stupidly high-powered moves. In particular, this can act as a cool check to Mega Charizard Y, coming in on something like SolarBeam and canceling out Zard's Drought. In Hail, Fire Blast is only a 2HKO, while Kyurem can outspeed and 2HKO with Blizzard:
252 SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 160-189 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 175-207 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
Stuff like Landorus and Garchomp are obviously KO'd if they're not Scarfed. Kyurem has enough bulk to live Stone Edge from Garchomp and KO back with Blizzard:
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 238-282 (60.8 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kyurem is also safe from Landorus as long as it doesn't come in on Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 250-294 (63.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
95 speed is actually pretty decent for a Scarfer, neatly outrunning Adamant Scarf Excadrill (even if Modest) and Landorus-T (if Timid). So I can see it functioning pretty well.
Cloyster:
Cloyster @ White Herb / Lum Berry
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast
- Shell Smash
A good thing about having priority is that you can afford to sacrifice some Speed for more power. You also somewhat solve its 4MSS by giving it both priority and coverage/secondary STAB in a single move. It's a bit hard to fit Hydro Pump to get past physical walls now though, but it's not something that can't be solved with team support.
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast
- Shell Smash
A good thing about having priority is that you can afford to sacrifice some Speed for more power. You also somewhat solve its 4MSS by giving it both priority and coverage/secondary STAB in a single move. It's a bit hard to fit Hydro Pump to get past physical walls now though, but it's not something that can't be solved with team support.
I don't like Water Shuriken Cloyster. Simply put, I don't see how adding Water Shuriken to Cloyster would benefit the meta in a good way. Sure, Water Shuriken allows it to get past a variety of threats with extremely powerful priority and would allow it to beat lots of stuff in fewer moveslots, but apart from that, how is it affecting the meta? I don't foresee anything becoming more or less prominent because of Water Shuriken alone, someone would need to convince me it isn't just a mindless offensive buff.
I feel that Kyurem is in the same boat. Hail teams are unlikely to become more prominent given that they can hardly take advantage of the short turns and the benefits aren't good enough. I see Snow Warning as allowing Kyurem to switch into Mega Zard Y, but it is still 2HKOed by Fire Blast and can't OHKO first. All it gets is probably a better Ice-type move and allowing it to beat Mega Venusaur who cannot use Synthesis effectively, but apart from that I feel it's another single mon buff.
This is the reason I like the other two nominations better. Poison Heal Goodra is probably my favorite because it is now a fantastic counter to stall, it can absorb special attacks more readily and cannot be worn down easily, and making Goodra more viable introduces another defensive Dragon-type into the game, which is great for countering various threats such as Thundurus, Rotom-W and Charizard Y.
Refrigerate Avalugg is also something I like quite a lot. Avalugg gives hazard stacking teams a lot more viability due to the unblockable Rapid Spin. Right now the only other Rapid Spinner worth using is Excadrill but it still doesn't beat Balloon Aegi. Avalugg would be able to beat all spinblockers yet without the cost of letting a Defiant user set up or without getting rid of your own entry hazards. While Ice typing is horrible, Refrigerate also allows it to take on a tanking role by using a moveset with Return / Recover / Rapid Spin. I don't know how much of an impact this would make, but it would really be interesting to see unblockable Rapid Spins in this meta with good enough physical bulk to spin on a decent variety of Pokemon.
I feel that Kyurem is in the same boat. Hail teams are unlikely to become more prominent given that they can hardly take advantage of the short turns and the benefits aren't good enough. I see Snow Warning as allowing Kyurem to switch into Mega Zard Y, but it is still 2HKOed by Fire Blast and can't OHKO first. All it gets is probably a better Ice-type move and allowing it to beat Mega Venusaur who cannot use Synthesis effectively, but apart from that I feel it's another single mon buff.
This is the reason I like the other two nominations better. Poison Heal Goodra is probably my favorite because it is now a fantastic counter to stall, it can absorb special attacks more readily and cannot be worn down easily, and making Goodra more viable introduces another defensive Dragon-type into the game, which is great for countering various threats such as Thundurus, Rotom-W and Charizard Y.
Refrigerate Avalugg is also something I like quite a lot. Avalugg gives hazard stacking teams a lot more viability due to the unblockable Rapid Spin. Right now the only other Rapid Spinner worth using is Excadrill but it still doesn't beat Balloon Aegi. Avalugg would be able to beat all spinblockers yet without the cost of letting a Defiant user set up or without getting rid of your own entry hazards. While Ice typing is horrible, Refrigerate also allows it to take on a tanking role by using a moveset with Return / Recover / Rapid Spin. I don't know how much of an impact this would make, but it would really be interesting to see unblockable Rapid Spins in this meta with good enough physical bulk to spin on a decent variety of Pokemon.
I like Snow Warning Kyurem, so here I go :
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 56 HP / 220 SAtk / 236 Spd
Modest / Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Roost / Dragon Pulse
The classic Sub-Kyurem, with Blizzard in place of Ice Beam. The added power is quite huge, in fact :
That's only a few calcs, but with Assault Vest running rampant, a few more residual damages are always good. No one (except Kyu-B, Mandibuzz and Magic Guard Clefable) in OU is immune to hail, and threats are generally bulky and hard to kill. These 6% can help a lot.
Evs to outrun Jolly Nite, though you can go down to 200 EV to outspeed Adamant Excadrill, and have some more power. A shame that Hail doesn't buff some bulk for Ice-mons, it would be great.
I don't think Kyurem will go off the roof (it still has the same issues), but every bit helps, and again, these residual damages can do a lot.
Refrigerate Avalugg is, for me, meh at best. The Pokemon is already far from good, and while having a good Ice STAB (hello Return) would be great, a mono-Ice typing is awful for a defensive Pokemon. Unblockable Rapid Spin ? Meh, the most used spinners (Excadrill, Starmie, M-Blastoise) generally don't give a fuck about ghosts, and we have Defog too.
It is not bad by any means, but it won't change the metagame for sure.
Poison Heal Goodra is great. I'd prefer Regenerator (a Choice Specs would be amazing) because with Poison Heal, we are restricted to Toxic Orb, and lose a good amount of power.
However, Goodra would be the single best switch-in to Rotom-W (and H too !), because of the burn immunity and, generally, a lot more reliable to check special threats through the game. I think a simple set like this :
Goodra@ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Protect
Would have some success. Of course, we can go defensive with Dragon Tail to check Greninja more reliably (Ice Beam is a 3KO if SR aren't up).
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 56 HP / 220 SAtk / 236 Spd
Modest / Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Roost / Dragon Pulse
The classic Sub-Kyurem, with Blizzard in place of Ice Beam. The added power is quite huge, in fact :
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 214-253 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 262-309 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Whether Rocks are up or not, Talonflame can't come in.
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 180-213 (68.9 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 220-261 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Thanks to the power and the hail damages, a OHKO can happen.
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 134-162 (36.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
Go tank this fat green flower turtle.
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 150-177 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
That means that is Conkeldurr switch on us, and we use Sub / Blizzard on the switch, we win (even if we take a Mach Punch in the process).
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 262-309 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Whether Rocks are up or not, Talonflame can't come in.
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 180-213 (68.9 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 220-261 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Thanks to the power and the hail damages, a OHKO can happen.
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 134-162 (36.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
Go tank this fat green flower turtle.
220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 150-177 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
220+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
That means that is Conkeldurr switch on us, and we use Sub / Blizzard on the switch, we win (even if we take a Mach Punch in the process).
That's only a few calcs, but with Assault Vest running rampant, a few more residual damages are always good. No one (except Kyu-B, Mandibuzz and Magic Guard Clefable) in OU is immune to hail, and threats are generally bulky and hard to kill. These 6% can help a lot.
Evs to outrun Jolly Nite, though you can go down to 200 EV to outspeed Adamant Excadrill, and have some more power. A shame that Hail doesn't buff some bulk for Ice-mons, it would be great.
I don't think Kyurem will go off the roof (it still has the same issues), but every bit helps, and again, these residual damages can do a lot.
Refrigerate Avalugg is, for me, meh at best. The Pokemon is already far from good, and while having a good Ice STAB (hello Return) would be great, a mono-Ice typing is awful for a defensive Pokemon. Unblockable Rapid Spin ? Meh, the most used spinners (Excadrill, Starmie, M-Blastoise) generally don't give a fuck about ghosts, and we have Defog too.
It is not bad by any means, but it won't change the metagame for sure.
Poison Heal Goodra is great. I'd prefer Regenerator (a Choice Specs would be amazing) because with Poison Heal, we are restricted to Toxic Orb, and lose a good amount of power.
However, Goodra would be the single best switch-in to Rotom-W (and H too !), because of the burn immunity and, generally, a lot more reliable to check special threats through the game. I think a simple set like this :
Goodra@ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Protect
Would have some success. Of course, we can go defensive with Dragon Tail to check Greninja more reliably (Ice Beam is a 3KO if SR aren't up).
I'm kind of tempted to NOT vote PH Goodra because I think with Curse it may end up being broken. It's essentially super Hydration and super Leftovers in one on one of the bulkiest special pokes around with really good resists and Curse can just put it over the top. This pretty much means you need Outrage to kill this thing, and if you have a Fairy then this is easy to take advantage of. Or am I wrong?
Oh, I love this new format.
Snow warning kyurem is cool, passive damage on like, 98% of the meta, but I don't see it being a viable weather setter, simply because there's no point to set up hail. He deals 31.25% over 5 turns, and gets a 100% accurate blizzard, but he'd be a lot better if there were a decent hail abuser.
I don't know why all the hate for Water Shuriken Cloyster, he gets the immediate niche of a decent revenge killer, and pokes like conk can no longer automatically end his sweep. Sure it's offensive, but he gets utility, and is significantly less vulnerable defensively, so I'd hardly call it mindless
We're gonna hear a lot about goodra, so I don't think I'll say much on him besides his main flaw of poor recovery is fixed, and he's immune to status. Good for him
Avalugg is another one that I just don't see working. Unblockable rapid spin and decent stab moves are there, but his terrible typing and one sided defenses don't make me jump to use him.
Right now, I'm planning on basing my decision on how the goodra discussion turns out, so let's see how this goes
Snow warning kyurem is cool, passive damage on like, 98% of the meta, but I don't see it being a viable weather setter, simply because there's no point to set up hail. He deals 31.25% over 5 turns, and gets a 100% accurate blizzard, but he'd be a lot better if there were a decent hail abuser.
I don't know why all the hate for Water Shuriken Cloyster, he gets the immediate niche of a decent revenge killer, and pokes like conk can no longer automatically end his sweep. Sure it's offensive, but he gets utility, and is significantly less vulnerable defensively, so I'd hardly call it mindless
We're gonna hear a lot about goodra, so I don't think I'll say much on him besides his main flaw of poor recovery is fixed, and he's immune to status. Good for him
Avalugg is another one that I just don't see working. Unblockable rapid spin and decent stab moves are there, but his terrible typing and one sided defenses don't make me jump to use him.
Right now, I'm planning on basing my decision on how the goodra discussion turns out, so let's see how this goes
Pokemon such as Mega Mawile, Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, SD Aegislash, Calm Mind Unaware Clefable, Azumarill, SD Bisharp, TG Manaphy, and SD Mega Scizor, can boost faster than Goodra can, blast through it even after a couple of Curse boosts, or just ignore the Curse boosts (Unaware Clefable). Those are more than enough checks and counters for a physical Curse set, not to mention that it would have pathetic power before boosting and it would need plenty of boosts to start dishing respectable damage, at least two. The metagame is too strong for Curse Goodra to be anything spectacular imo.
scorpdestroyer Water Shuriken Closyer can be used not only as a sweeper, but as a check to dangerous offensive threats. For example:
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 198-237 (57.8 - 69.2%)
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 130-153 (43.6 - 51.3%)
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 121-144 (44.4 - 52.9%)
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sand Rush Excadrill Excadrill: 429-507 (118.5 - 140%)
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 153-183 (63.4 - 75.9%)
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops in Rain: 204-242 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As for Snow Warning Kyurem, the ability to check weather sweepers such as Excadrill, Kabutops, and Kingdra, the ability to directly combat rain teams as it makes for a great switch-in to Politoed, and the ability to fare somewhat better against weather inducers are all advantages that add a lot of utility to this suggestion, certainly enough to not be classified as a mindless offensive buff. Oh, and Kyurem can actually use Icy Rock, thanks to reliable recovery and good bulk, so semi-Hail teams could become a viable gimmick again, who knows.
Imo, all of those suggestions are excellent and interesting, but the one i would like to see the most is Poison Heal Goodra. Goodra finally becomes able to take advanatge of its great special bulk, decent power, and good defensive typing to check or wall the threats it wants to, such as Mega Charizard Y, special Aegislash, special Thundurus, Keldeo, Greninja, Landorus, Mega Venusaur, Gengar, Rotom-W, and more, while not being easy as fuck to overwhelm, meaning that it can be played more elastically and aggressively, and invest more in SpA without getting 2HKOed by most special attackers.
I still can't understand the appeal behind Refrigerate Avalugg. Maybe I'm underestimating the utility of an unblockable Rapid Spin, but Defog has shown us that unblockable hazard control isn't unmanageable. Avalugg sucks too much to be useful, even with Refrigerate. For starters, things that want Rapid Spin support generally are weak to hazards, and using a hazard remover that is vulnerable to all forms of hazards would compound weaknesses of the teammates you're trying to support. It's a defensive Ice-type, which everyone knows is absolutely awful especially with that terrible base 46 Special Defense. Sure, you can patch it up with Assault Vest but then you lose Leftovers and Recover, making it extremely easy to wear down. Really, all this thing looks like is an Ice-type Donphan and that really doesn't change with Refrigerate. This slate is one you can't really go wrong on, sans Avalugg, though I think Goodra seems like the most interesting because Kyurem and Cloyster don't really promote much discussion when it just boils down to Blizzard spam and more priority in a metagame already infested with priority .
A few thoughts on the current slate:
- Snow Warning Kyurem isn't really much of a team player due to how Hail isn't very useful and won't last long enough to make defensive abilities worth it. The only teammates I can imagine directly benefiting from the weather condition are Pokemon who want 100% accurate Blizzard (which is redundant with Kyurem for obvious reasons,) and Pokemon who want Ice-type Weather Ball (Raikou, I suppose.) Snow Warning directly benefits Kyurem, who loves Blizzard Spam, residual damage on non-Ice types and having an ability it can actually use. Kyurem could have a slew of viable sets with this ability, from Choice sets to SubRoost and more.
- Water Shuriken Cloyster isn't a mindless offensive buff by any means, but I don't see it shaking up the metagame in any particular way. It makes Cloyster's sweeps harder to stop, but I don't see it getting a lot of use on support sets. I dunno, it's just not as interesting a topic (in my opinion.)
- Poison Heal Goodra seems remarkably similar to Poison Heal Snorlax. Great special bulk, good offensive stats, and the ability can really only be utilized in one way. It's a great idea, but I don't see how discussion would really be different than the Snorlax discussion (aside from typing differences and lack of STAB Facade.)
- Refrigerate Avalugg is too slow and frail on the specially-defensive side to really merit use as a spinner, even with unblockable Rapid Spin. The only real spinner at the moment, Excadrill, already scares Gengar and Aegislash with (Mold Breaker, Super Effective,) Earthquake, making spinblocking a risky prospect. Both of those spinblockers don't have a problem hitting Avalugg in the weaker defensive stat and outspeeding him, either. I don't see Refrigerate Avalugg having a meaningful impact.
I really don't want to vote for Poison Heal Goodra. Not because I think it'll be OP, which it won't be, but because it's yet another Poison Heal suggestion. I can appeciate the ability, but I'm a little sick of seeing it. I think Poison Heal Snorlax made me sick of seeing the ability, to be honest. This is a good idea, but I think we need to take a break from defensive Poison Heal suggestions. I'll avoid talking about it any further, anyways.
But I didn't come here just to bash Goodra, as I have a few things to say about the other theorymons. Water Shuriken Cloyster is alright, and it's certainly a buff, given the extra priority it gets to get the jump on weakened foes without needing to set up Shell Smash, but I wouldn't say it's a significant buff, since base 95 attack only deals so much damage from a base 75 attack, even with STAB. He really needs the Shell Smash boost to deal large amounts of damage with it, and since it doubles your speed, it really defeats the purpose of using its priority unless you're scared to death of Talonflame, and you'd be better off using Razor Shell if you ask me.
Refrigerate Avalugg is a decent idea, and I think is worth testing out anyways. With Rapid Spin as an Ice-type move, nothing can block it and prevent hazards from being spun away, which is always neat. Plus, he can actually take physical hits better than Hippowdon, which is a great asset to have in my book, and being able to hit hard with Refrigerate Return is an excellent bonus. But lacking any weaknesses aside from Ice and having 4 rather crippling weaknesses really lets him down, and having base 46 special defense makes him easy prey for special attackers,but he at least has Sturdy to survive a hit and do his job at least once. Being vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards and having a Stealth Rock weakness does no favors for him, especially since his role is switching into and spinning away hazards. Not the best idea, but far from the worst.
And finally, we have Snow Warning Kyurem. This is a mix of good and bad; on the good side, base 130 special attack and STAB 110 attack in Blizzard are amazing to have, and having base 95 speed is also good for wallbreaking. His equally good base 130 attack shouldn't be overlooked, so he can hit special walls harder. But that's really it. In terms of consistent weather summoners in OU, Mega Charizard Y can easily 2HKO with Fire Blast, whether it's in the sun or hail, and (Mega) Tyranitar has to be cautious of Focus Blast if sand isn't up, but there aren't any problems aside from that, though Specs sets can KO even with sand up. In terms of special sweeping, base 95 speed only goes so far, and there are a plethora of speedsters that can take him on. His bulk is excellent, and does have Roost to keep himself alive, but like Avalugg, he's vulnerable to every hazard and weak to Stealth Rock, not to mention that he has a terrible defensive typing leaving him with 5 exploitable weaknesses. This will likely get my vote, but I'm none too impressed with this one.
But I didn't come here just to bash Goodra, as I have a few things to say about the other theorymons. Water Shuriken Cloyster is alright, and it's certainly a buff, given the extra priority it gets to get the jump on weakened foes without needing to set up Shell Smash, but I wouldn't say it's a significant buff, since base 95 attack only deals so much damage from a base 75 attack, even with STAB. He really needs the Shell Smash boost to deal large amounts of damage with it, and since it doubles your speed, it really defeats the purpose of using its priority unless you're scared to death of Talonflame, and you'd be better off using Razor Shell if you ask me.
Refrigerate Avalugg is a decent idea, and I think is worth testing out anyways. With Rapid Spin as an Ice-type move, nothing can block it and prevent hazards from being spun away, which is always neat. Plus, he can actually take physical hits better than Hippowdon, which is a great asset to have in my book, and being able to hit hard with Refrigerate Return is an excellent bonus. But lacking any weaknesses aside from Ice and having 4 rather crippling weaknesses really lets him down, and having base 46 special defense makes him easy prey for special attackers,
And finally, we have Snow Warning Kyurem. This is a mix of good and bad; on the good side, base 130 special attack and STAB 110 attack in Blizzard are amazing to have, and having base 95 speed is also good for wallbreaking. His equally good base 130 attack shouldn't be overlooked, so he can hit special walls harder. But that's really it. In terms of consistent weather summoners in OU, Mega Charizard Y can easily 2HKO with Fire Blast, whether it's in the sun or hail, and (Mega) Tyranitar has to be cautious of Focus Blast if sand isn't up, but there aren't any problems aside from that, though Specs sets can KO even with sand up. In terms of special sweeping, base 95 speed only goes so far, and there are a plethora of speedsters that can take him on. His bulk is excellent, and does have Roost to keep himself alive, but like Avalugg, he's vulnerable to every hazard and weak to Stealth Rock, not to mention that he has a terrible defensive typing leaving him with 5 exploitable weaknesses. This will likely get my vote, but I'm none too impressed with this one.
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He can't have Sturdy and Refrigerate at once. If he has to worry about a decently strong special attack, he's not surviving it.
You continue to be one of the most obnoxious posters on this forum -_-
Aaaanyways...
Snow Warning Kyurem would be good for his viability. It lets him spam blizzard, which is very helpful for his offensive sets, while Hail damage chips away at opponents if he his running a roost set. The ability to break a huge number of sashes and bypassing sturdy (and ability held by many steel types/rock types who would be immune to sandstorm chip) is a big deal, and Kyurem actually has solid all-round stats. Having a useless ability can be enough to decide whether a pokemon becomes either incredibly useful or completely outclassed (like imagine if Mamoswine got pressure instead). I think Kyurem is a strong stall pokemon with a lot of versatility and this buff would help him a lot for all of his sets.
Refridgerate Avalugg is a fun idea, and I think it would be quite a large boost to him. As a spinner, the ability sturdy is pretty useless for him when it will be broken by switching into entry hazards, so Refridgerate is pretty much a direct upgrade for that role. The sheer power of Refridgerate is what is going to push Avalugg into viability as a spinner I think, rather than the utility of ice rapid spin. There isnt much that can soak up a fully invested Return from Avalugg so he can use switches as a chance to spin. I think this is how he will likely be played: wallbreaker with rapid spin as a side option.
He blows chunks out of his checks if they switch into Return:
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%)
And he has the gimmicky option of Power Herb refridgerate boosted Skull Bash, which will increase your defense by 1 and instantly hit with a 170 BP STAB move.
Also, just for laughs: 252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Rapid Spin vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 239-286 (66.7 - 79.8%)
I dont really play with Cloyster or Goodra, or know their movesets well enough so I wont say anything on them. I think they both sound like they would make a huge impact on the metagame
Ah, I had a brain fart. Corrected.
I hope you realize that by simply saying this you confirm his statement.
Water Shuriken cloyster would be a fun idea, allowing it to sweep better and maybe even viably use a choice band (though if you really want to spam priority with choice band, Talonflame still has the market cornered).
Seeing Avalugg as a wallbreaker in OU would be hilarious, but hilarious in that I have no idea what to expect. It would be absurdly strong, as your calc against Rotom proved, but it would still be extremely slow and specially frail, and while it's physical bulk would still be impressive, life orb would compromise that somewhat. I think that this would be an excellent addition to theorymon simply because i have no idea what to expect, while we have some idea what would happen with the others, Kyurem would start blizzard spamming, goodra would either become a viable wall or the new Curselax, and cloyster is rather obvious, but Refrigerate avalugg would encourage more creativity than the other options.
Magma
Guest
The 10 point drop wasn't my main point, it was more of the icing on the cake.
The fact that "just spam Blizzard" has never been a thing in OU is my main point (although, this could be do to the fact that Kyu had to depend on others to set up Hail, so auto-hail Kyu could change things.) I dunno... I just see choiced BlizzSpam sets getting walled and worn down faster than they can wall-break.
However, the Substitue set is a different story. After seeing Full_Korbe's calcs, I can definitely get on board with this set, so I will back down from my original statement of Snow Warning Kyurem being "pretty useless."
I'll give my opinion on the rest of the slate later in the week.
Great format change :)
Let's go:
Refrigerate Avalugg, it is not a huge buff as the big problem og avalugg is its type, the worse type ever for a defensive mon, but given its physical bulk and its potential ice rapid spin should give it a good niche, one of the best rapid spinner ( just behing excadrill i guess). That could be help to break the deoxys/aegislash/bisharp core and that is good for the meta ! Edit : just to be clear, ice rapid spin is far better than defog since it is not affected by taunt and cannot be used by defiant/competitive users.
Snow Warning Kyurem, A very good anti rain/sand team, getting a 100% accurate blizzard + some extra damage is nice for kyurem, but, it still miss some coverage moves as the dragon+ice stab is not good at all in term of coverage. The fact is, with the drop of rain ans sand team, i'm not sure it will find a niche in the meta.
Water Shuriken Cloyster, That buff is really nice, that cloyster will suit very well the meta since people look for more and more priority rather than scarfers. Moreover Cloyster may have other roles than the standard shell smash set that is good for the cloyster itself. I really like that change as we did not get so much move add so far.
Poison Heal Goodra, poison heal is all that goodra needs actually, good recovery, no more anoying status. With its great special bulk and good moovepool, it will be usefull no doubt. What annoys me is we already got Snorlax poison heal and i'm affraid the meta will be more impacted by those new poison heal users than they did alone. I do not know if we have to take that in consideration before voting; anyway goodra is already a good check/counter for several common threats, and that buff will give it more longevity and versaltility, a good add on for the meta.
Let's go:
Refrigerate Avalugg, it is not a huge buff as the big problem og avalugg is its type, the worse type ever for a defensive mon, but given its physical bulk and its potential ice rapid spin should give it a good niche, one of the best rapid spinner ( just behing excadrill i guess). That could be help to break the deoxys/aegislash/bisharp core and that is good for the meta ! Edit : just to be clear, ice rapid spin is far better than defog since it is not affected by taunt and cannot be used by defiant/competitive users.
Snow Warning Kyurem, A very good anti rain/sand team, getting a 100% accurate blizzard + some extra damage is nice for kyurem, but, it still miss some coverage moves as the dragon+ice stab is not good at all in term of coverage. The fact is, with the drop of rain ans sand team, i'm not sure it will find a niche in the meta.
Water Shuriken Cloyster, That buff is really nice, that cloyster will suit very well the meta since people look for more and more priority rather than scarfers. Moreover Cloyster may have other roles than the standard shell smash set that is good for the cloyster itself. I really like that change as we did not get so much move add so far.
Poison Heal Goodra, poison heal is all that goodra needs actually, good recovery, no more anoying status. With its great special bulk and good moovepool, it will be usefull no doubt. What annoys me is we already got Snorlax poison heal and i'm affraid the meta will be more impacted by those new poison heal users than they did alone. I do not know if we have to take that in consideration before voting; anyway goodra is already a good check/counter for several common threats, and that buff will give it more longevity and versaltility, a good add on for the meta.
Wow, much interesting stuff here. I vote for Refrigerate Avalugg, 'cause Avalugg is the worst one of the four, so I would gladly see a buff for him. Snow Warning Kyu is very good and we know that; Water Shuriken Cloyster would be a beast, having 2 stab priorities; and Poison Heal Goodra might be interesting. But I want to gove something barely usable a chance.
Where not voting yet, but when we do vote mine will probably go to Water Shuriken Cloyster
Also when is the ladder going to be updated with last month's theorymons,its been 17 days. If this months theorymons are uploaded at a time where we cant use them for atleast a week, if at all, then I request that we upload both last months theorymons and this months theorymons in May, allthough I hope it doesnt come to that
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Ok then, sorry for the misunderstanding, I usually don't frequent this meta.
My thoughts :]
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 336-396 (90.5 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
lel hail too but still
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 492-580 (121.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 572-676 (141.5 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 349-412 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 349-412 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 310-366 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Specs Kyurem OHKOes all of them, this is the most powerful Kyurem really. Scarf is a very good set too, it can revenge kill shit with its power Blizzards and I feel like it is a great buff that isn't an offensive mindless buff unhealthy for the meta, but a very nice one that can be very good.
- Snow Warning Kyurem (Chesnaught)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 336-396 (90.5 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
lel hail too but still
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 492-580 (121.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 572-676 (141.5 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 349-412 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 349-412 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 310-366 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Specs Kyurem OHKOes all of them, this is the most powerful Kyurem really. Scarf is a very good set too, it can revenge kill shit with its power Blizzards and I feel like it is a great buff that isn't an offensive mindless buff unhealthy for the meta, but a very nice one that can be very good.
- Water Shuriken Cloyster (Thisisafake name)
- Poison Heal Goodra (Treecko)
- Refrigerate Avalugg (amzaneok)
In my defense...
Food for thought. Tyranitar is the only hazards setter I can think of at the moment that threatens Avalugg more than it does Excadrill. Choice Band is used to maximize power and see if they can really make it past hazard setters. Deoxys-S threatens both Excadrill and Avalugg, although I'm pretty sure Psycho Boost is a lot more common than 252 Atk Fire Punch. Excadrill still will not like switching into a Crunch from Tyranitar, not to mention a Superpower, although it's usually a better match up for Excadrill. The common Air Balloon Heatran is the in a similar boat.
I'd argue that Avalugg is MUCH better at pulling off a Choice Band set due to having a stronger STAB with no immunities and great neutral damage unlike Excadrill. As such, Avalugg is actually able to plow through almost every big hazard setter out there on a good set. Excadrill can't even when using Choice Band, which it doesn't commonly do.
And this isn't about spinblocking, so don't bring up Aegislash or Gengar. With Refrigerate, why would they bother switching in when they know they can't block it..? The point is that the enemy is now forced into a crappy position... take a huge powered Refrigerate Return (or coverage) to the switch-in, or lose their hazards. Both of these options suck.
Also...
252+ Atk Choice Band Avalugg Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 502-592 (191.6 - 225.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Neither are particularly happy to switch in.
Really though, if I had to choose another theorymon besides my own, it would be Snow Warning Kyurem due to becoming a newly huge obstacle for weather teams while also directly helping itself out a little... That's not a bad conversation to be had. I kind of feel like the rest won't offer much of an impact to the metagame, or won't provide good discussion. We have already discussed the power of Poison Heal when we talked about Poison Heal Snorlax, so I really don't feel like Goodra is much better of a discussion (although, duh, there are still major differences). I feel like Snow Warning Kyurem and Refrigerate Avalugg bring something new to the conversation.
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 363-427 (119.4 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~0 SpA Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 198-234 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 502-592 (138.6 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 972-1144 (254.4 - 299.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Avalugg Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 256-302 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 306-361 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
~252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Avalugg: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 426-504 (101.4 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 398-470 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 363-427 (119.4 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~0 SpA Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 198-234 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 502-592 (138.6 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 972-1144 (254.4 - 299.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Avalugg Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 256-302 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 306-361 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
~252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Avalugg: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 426-504 (101.4 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 398-470 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 80-95 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 303-357 (125.2 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~252 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 200-236 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
~4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 186-220 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. Air Balloon Excadrill: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
~252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 560-660 (154.6 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 162-192 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 422-500 (132.7 - 157.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 510-602 (126.2 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 222-262 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-210 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 132-156 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
~4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 308-366 (85 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 303-357 (125.2 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~252 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 200-236 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
~4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 186-220 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. Air Balloon Excadrill: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
~252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 560-660 (154.6 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 162-192 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 422-500 (132.7 - 157.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 510-602 (126.2 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 222-262 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-210 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 132-156 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
~4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 308-366 (85 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Food for thought. Tyranitar is the only hazards setter I can think of at the moment that threatens Avalugg more than it does Excadrill. Choice Band is used to maximize power and see if they can really make it past hazard setters. Deoxys-S threatens both Excadrill and Avalugg, although I'm pretty sure Psycho Boost is a lot more common than 252 Atk Fire Punch. Excadrill still will not like switching into a Crunch from Tyranitar, not to mention a Superpower, although it's usually a better match up for Excadrill. The common Air Balloon Heatran is the in a similar boat.
I'd argue that Avalugg is MUCH better at pulling off a Choice Band set due to having a stronger STAB with no immunities and great neutral damage unlike Excadrill. As such, Avalugg is actually able to plow through almost every big hazard setter out there on a good set. Excadrill can't even when using Choice Band, which it doesn't commonly do.
And this isn't about spinblocking, so don't bring up Aegislash or Gengar. With Refrigerate, why would they bother switching in when they know they can't block it..? The point is that the enemy is now forced into a crappy position... take a huge powered Refrigerate Return (or coverage) to the switch-in, or lose their hazards. Both of these options suck.
Also...
252+ Atk Choice Band Avalugg Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 502-592 (191.6 - 225.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Neither are particularly happy to switch in.
Really though, if I had to choose another theorymon besides my own, it would be Snow Warning Kyurem due to becoming a newly huge obstacle for weather teams while also directly helping itself out a little... That's not a bad conversation to be had. I kind of feel like the rest won't offer much of an impact to the metagame, or won't provide good discussion. We have already discussed the power of Poison Heal when we talked about Poison Heal Snorlax, so I really don't feel like Goodra is much better of a discussion (although, duh, there are still major differences). I feel like Snow Warning Kyurem and Refrigerate Avalugg bring something new to the conversation.
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