Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Mood4food77]

gourgeist gets a huge buff to it's subseeding set by the addition of prankster, something like

Gourgeist-XL @ Leftovers
Prankster / Careful
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Will-O-Wisp
Substitute
Leech Seed
Phantom Force / Seed Bomb / Protect

Max special defense as you now have prankster wisps to boost up that physical defense. 85/122/75 is not terrible bulk and it has a decent defensive typing. It'll pretty much check every non-fire offensive pokemon out there. Final Slot is so that you're either not ruined by taunt or that you can stall a little more with Protect. Straight forward, will be effective as fuck, I mean seriously, do people think Prankster won't make him viable? Prankster is a freaking stupid ability that will make almost anything with some semblence of a support movepool a threat. I mean, Sableye is literally a shit pokemon but it's got Prankster.

Also, the Small Gougeist has the fastest D-bond in the game now thanks to Prankster, gimmicky but can be useful.

 

[royzizzle]

ive theorized druddigon with different typing before, but not steel, instead poison.

you can maximize physical bulk and help check many sweepers. however, i theorized this back in gen5 when fighting type sweepers were all the rage. it is far less relevant now

i really like the thick fat togekiss idea. in my mind charizard has been overcentralising the metagame and at one point i even had furfrou :) and chansey on the same team because charizard showed up on every team i played against.

 

[Full_Korbe]

Your calcs in this discussion has no sense.
Even now gourgeist can tank. Prankster didn't help tanking hits.
Even if he is bulky, why has a low usage?

The greatest difference is that every calc have posted are nearly 2KO on Gourgeist. From now, he can burn them (or force them out, which still great) or sub if you predict a switch-in. If your opponent mispredict one single time, he is going to be on pain. Let's say you come on Garchomp, and he has a Char-X waiting. If you sub when his Char-X, you are free to Leech Seed. From now, you can either switch on your counter or disable the move used (well, he was smart and did not use Flare Blitz, don't it obviously).

Gourgeist will be an "annoyer", as you said. But with its great defenses, many Pokemon fail to make a lot of damages to him, while they completely destroy Sableye. I mean, you can come on Excadrill for free, with nothing to fear ! And even if your opponent predicted it, he must bring a powerful special (or Fire) Pokemon to force out Gourgeist. Even Mamoswine can only do about 30% after being burned.
The "weakness" of the most popular "annoyer" is that they are frail. Whismiscott is frail, Sableye is frail. They are easily forced out. Gourgeist... Well, nope.

Red Cat : While you are right, they still don't want to be burned / Leech Seeded. If you bring Skarmory or Hippowdon, Gourgeist can easily burn them and that cut a part of their bulkiness. The most solid one would be Heatran then, because Leech Seed is easier to shrug off. And Magic Guard Clefable as you said.
And I forgot about the "bypass Sub part'" of Hyper Voice, then, that's also true. But they also don't want to be Leech Seeded or burned in the case of Mega-Gardevoir, so they have to hope for a sub on their switch... But the Gourgeist player may be aware of that.

 

[-Flygon-]

So, we have some people arguing about how Gourgeist will be broken with Prankster, and some that say that he would be outclassed by SABLEYE. What has the world come to? XD

He won't be broken, because there are enough Pokemon (Talonflame, Both Charizards, and Special/Mixed Aegislash come to mind) that can
check/counter it, ignoring WoW, or forcing it to accept it's fate with Destiny Bond. He's RU at the moment. One ability won't make him OP in OU.

And SABLEYE. If Gourgeist got Prankster, I would forget it existed, tbh. Sableye has crap defense, and the only advantages, as said before, are Taunt and STAB Foul Play, while Gourgeist has the SubSeed combo, as well as WoW, and great physical bulk, so you can invest in it's poorer Sp. Def.

I think I summed it up well. It's not OP, but it would be the best Prankster in the tier, imo.

 

[DaiGuren]

So, we have some people arguing about how Gourgeist will be broken with Prankster, and some that say that he would be outclassed by SABLEYE. What has the world come to? XD

He won't be broken, because there are enough Pokemon (Talonflame, Both Charizards, and Special/Mixed Aegislash come to mind) that can
check/counter it, ignoring WoW, or forcing it to accept it's fate with Destiny Bond. He's RU at the moment. One ability won't make him OP in OU.

And SABLEYE. If Gourgeist got Prankster, I would forget it existed, tbh. Sableye has crap defense, and the only advantages, as said before, are Taunt and STAB Foul Play, while Gourgeist has the SubSeed combo, as well as WoW, and great physical bulk, so you can invest in it's poorer Sp. Def.

I think I summed it up well. It's not OP, but it would be the best Prankster in the tier, imo.

Let us discuss those so-called counters, shall we?

Talonflame - if CB Talonflame comes in on a predicted D.Bond, then TF is either forced out(giving Gourgeist free Sub) or they both die together, both win-win for Gourgeist player. If not wearing CB, TF can get a SD/Roost while Gourgeist uses Sub then uses Leech Seed next turn, then switch to appropriate counter after that. So yeah, Talonflame is only a counter if it manages to come in on a move that is not D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed. Otherwise, its a check.

Both MegaZards - in the same boat as TF, if either form comes in on D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed, they can either be sub-seeded to death, or kill Gourgeist and itself. Not really a counter, but a shaky check(both will be sub-seeded to death if Gourgeist is behind a sub).

Special/Mixed Aegislash - if it comes in on a D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed, it will be subseeded to death(Shadow Sneak can't OHKO a healthy one), and if it comes in on a WoW, it will be burned then sub-seeded to death. Again, it is only a check if Gourgeist is not behind a sub. Otherwise, both variants of Aegislash will lose to Gourgeist.

So yeah, even Garde/Sylveon will be crippled if it comes in on a predicted Leech Seed, or in Garde's case Leech Seed and WoW. But Gourgeist always has the option to kamikaze by killing itself and Sylveon/Garde.

 

[-Flygon-]

Let us discuss those so-called counters, shall we?

Talonflame - if CB Talonflame comes in on a predicted D.Bond, then TF is either forced out(giving Gourgeist free Sub) or they both die together, both win-win for Gourgeist player. If not wearing CB, TF can get a SD/Roost while Gourgeist uses Sub then uses Leech Seed next turn, then switch to appropriate counter after that. So yeah, Talonflame is only a counter if it manages to come in on a move that is not D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed. Otherwise, its a check.

Both MegaZards - in the same boat as TF, if either form comes in on D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed, they can either be sub-seeded to death, or kill Gourgeist and itself. Not really a counter, but a shaky check(both will be sub-seeded to death if Gourgeist is behind a sub).

Special/Mixed Aegislash - if it comes in on a D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed, it will be subseeded to death(Shadow Sneak can't OHKO a healthy one), and if it comes in on a WoW, it will be burned then sub-seeded to death. Again, it is only a check if Gourgeist is not behind a sub. Otherwise, both variants of Aegislash will lose to Gourgeist.

So yeah, even Garde/Sylveon will be crippled if it comes in on a predicted Leech Seed, or in Garde's case Leech Seed and WoW. But Gourgeist always has the option to kamikaze by killing itself and Sylveon/Garde.

You know, I was typing a snarky remark to this, but I see your point. Thanks for clarifying my mistakes, I'll put my foot in my mouth on that subject. I don't know who to vote for now, I HATE Togekiss, and Druddigon is terrible. I guess I'll stick with Togekiss (UGH.), so I can still contribute. Hope there are more palatable options next time, but nbd.

 

[Seiterman]

Let us discuss those so-called counters, shall we?

Talonflame - if CB Talonflame comes in on a predicted D.Bond, then TF is either forced out(giving Gourgeist free Sub) or they both die together, both win-win for Gourgeist player. If not wearing CB, TF can get a SD/Roost while Gourgeist uses Sub then uses Leech Seed next turn, then switch to appropriate counter after that. So yeah, Talonflame is only a counter if it manages to come in on a move that is not D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed. Otherwise, its a check.

Both MegaZards - in the same boat as TF, if either form comes in on D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed, they can either be sub-seeded to death, or kill Gourgeist and itself. Not really a counter, but a shaky check(both will be sub-seeded to death if Gourgeist is behind a sub).

Special/Mixed Aegislash - if it comes in on a D.Bond, Sub or Leech Seed, it will be subseeded to death(Shadow Sneak can't OHKO a healthy one), and if it comes in on a WoW, it will be burned then sub-seeded to death. Again, it is only a check if Gourgeist is not behind a sub. Otherwise, both variants of Aegislash will lose to Gourgeist.

So yeah, even Garde/Sylveon will be crippled if it comes in on a predicted Leech Seed, or in Garde's case Leech Seed and WoW. But Gourgeist always has the option to kamikaze by killing itself and Sylveon/Garde.

Destiny Bond in and of itself isn't a good reason to disregard any of those answers to Prankster Gourgeist. It's a great last-effort kamikaze move, but it, you know, comes with the price of losing Gourgeist. It's hard to call it a win for the Gourgeist player when they no longer have Gourgeist. =/

Also I think you're underselling some of those Mons anyway (Talonflame in particular.)

Talonflame can really come in on whatever it wants to, honestly, barring Phantom Force (which is a bad idea, anyway.) Destiny Bond is a deterrent, but if the opposing player wants Gourgeist gone, they're still totally free to do it. If you Sub, he can just break it (and Talonflame's Brave Bird outprioritizes anything Prankster Gourgeist can do, so if you want to continue having Subs up you need to do it again immediately.) Leech Seed is annoying, but Talonflame can still KO you regardless, so it's not that big a deal (and SD/Roost sets can Roost off the damage anyway, while setting up. Obviously WoW is a no-go, and the most likely attacking move Gourgeist would have, Seed Bomb, is barely damaging due to a quadruple resistance.

SD/Roost sets can probably go so far as to use Gourgeist as set-up fodder. Also, keep in mind how many moves you have. If you want Destiny Bond, it probably needs to go in over WoW, and a lot of players are probably not willing to give up WoW.

 

[Der Richter]

One ability won't make him OP in OU.

I'm sorry to be that guy, but yes, the right ability might do it OP. Do we all remember Blaziken? XD
I don't think that Prankster Gourg would be THAT broken, but top tier OU for sure (I've been using it for a long time, and I can say that he's more than a decent mon already like it is).

 

[-Flygon-]

I'm sorry to be that guy, but yes, the right ability might do it OP. Do we all remember Blaziken? XD
I don't think that Prankster Gourg would be THAT broken, but top tier OU for sure (I've been using it for a long time, and I can say that he's more than a decent mon already like it is).

Wow, I really feel stupid now. XD Yeah I remember Blaziken now, you make a great point there. And you're probably right, probably gonna be top tier OU, definitely not below, and hopefully not over. You sure do learn a lot about the game from this thread, that's for sure. :)

EDIT: I think I'll vote for Gourgeist, now that a few points have been made against him being OP. Mostly so I don't have to vote for Togekiss. XD

 

[DaiGuren]

You know, I was typing a snarky remark to this, but I see your point. Thanks for clarifying my mistakes, I'll put my foot in my mouth on that subject. I don't know who to vote for now, I HATE Togekiss, and Druddigon is terrible. I guess I'll stick with Togekiss (UGH.), so I can still contribute. Hope there are more palatable options next time, but nbd.

Feel free to discuss, it is not my intention for you to stop posting about the subject. I myself would like to be corrected if I either made a mistake or a fallacy. I just think that, Prankster Gourgest is too powerful for OU. It is checked by a ton of threats(mainly strong Fire/Ghost-Types) if Gourgeist is not behind a Sub. Behind a Sub, its checks are reduced to Infiltrator/Pixilate Hyper Voice users, Prankster Taunt, stallbreaker Talonflame(shaky), maybe Sap Sipper Goodra with Leftovers, and some other obscure counter that is generally not worth it in OU. Out of all those checks, only Prankster Taunt-users doesn't fear D.Bond.

Of course, Gourgeist can always switch out to a counter, which means the Gourgeist-player will ALWAYS have the momentum in his/her favor, unless Talonflame/Thundurus pivots out with u-turn(stallbreaker TF doesn't carry it)/volt switch.

 

[-Flygon-]

Feel free to discuss, it is not my intention for you to stop posting about the subject. I myself would like to be corrected if I either made a mistake or a fallacy. I just think that, Prankster Gourgest is too powerful for OU. It is checked by a ton of threats(mainly strong Fire/Ghost-Types) if Gourgeist is not behind a Sub. Behind a Sub, its checks are reduced to Infiltrator/Pixilate Hyper Voice users, Prankster Taunt, stallbreaker Talonflame(shaky), maybe Sap Sipper Goodra with Leftovers, and some other obscure counter that is generally not worth it in OU. Out of all those checks, only Prankster Taunt-users doesn't fear D.Bond.

Of course, Gourgeist can always switch out to a counter, which means the Gourgeist-player will ALWAYS have the momentum in his/her favor, unless Talonflame/Thundurus pivots out with u-turn(stallbreaker TF doesn't carry it)/volt switch.

Thank you for the kind response, and you do have a point about the potency of Gourgeist. It won't be overpowered, imo, but it will be up there with the S ranks. I guess we won't truly know unless we try it out, so I'm voting for Gourgeist. :) What's everyone else thinking?

 

[Der Richter]

In the end I think I'll vote for Togekiss. Even though Gourgeist is my favourite, I think it's too big of a buff. A core "Tyranitar-Gourgeist-Klefki?" might ruin the day of many people.
Paradoxically, Steel Druddigon and Prank Gour might be best buddies, the latter covering the weaknesses of the former. Just think about this team: Steel/Dragon Drud, Prank Gourg, Azumarill (covering the weaknesses of the first two), Chansey (for wish), Galvantula (for Sticky Web), Talonflame (for revenge killing). I think it might be interesting.

 

[some hero]

In the end I think I'll vote for Togekiss. Even though Gourgeist is my favourite, I think it's too big of a buff. A core "Tyranitar-Gourgeist-Klefki?" might ruin the day of many people.
Paradoxically, Steel Druddigon and Prank Gour might be best buddies, the latter covering the weaknesses of the former. Just think about this team: Steel/Dragon Drud, Prank Gourg, Azumarill (covering the weaknesses of the first two), Chansey (for wish), Galvantula (for Sticky Web), Talonflame (for revenge killing). I think it might be interesting.

That trio(drug/Azu/gourg) is only good because of Prankster Gourg. That pokemon is broken enough to make a garbage partner not completely useless.

 

[Der Richter]

That trio(drug/Azu/gourg) is only good because of Prankster Gourg. That pokemon is broken enough to make a garbage partner not completely useless.

Yeah, I was thinking about something to make this Druddigon avaiable, and noticed that Gourg might help a lot, checking fight and ground weaknesses, and burning the very likely physical counters to Drud. Azumarill covers fire and dark, and with the help of wow and seeds the switch ins should be pretty easy.

 

[Pyritie]

Feel free to discuss, it is not my intention for you to stop posting about the subject. I myself would like to be corrected if I either made a mistake or a fallacy. I just think that, Prankster Gourgest is too powerful for OU. It is checked by a ton of threats(mainly strong Fire/Ghost-Types) if Gourgeist is not behind a Sub. Behind a Sub, its checks are reduced to Infiltrator/Pixilate Hyper Voice users, Prankster Taunt, stallbreaker Talonflame(shaky), maybe Sap Sipper Goodra with Leftovers, and some other obscure counter that is generally not worth it in OU. Out of all those checks, only Prankster Taunt-users doesn't fear D.Bond.

Couldn't you say the same thing about mega banette (ignoring its required setup turn for the sake of argument)? Granted it doesn't have leech seed, but it's got the priority destiny bond or substitute that it can do on switch-ins.

M-Banette is annoying once it gets going but it's not terribly difficult to play around. It just grinds your momentum to a halt and forces you to status it or find another way to kill it without losing one of your own pokes in the process. And he's RU!

Is there anything else that I'm forgetting besides better bulk and leech seed that m-banette doesn't have that makes gorgeist "too powerful for OU"? Or is it just those two things + the vulnerable prankster-less setup turn?

 

[Full_Korbe]

But Banette main problem is, as you said, terrible bulk + no recovery (not even Leftovers). 64/75/83 is incredibly meh for switch-in opportunities. Most strong neutral attacks just OHKO Banette
Also, Banette only way to recover health is Pain Split. Gourgeist has Leech Seed + Leftiers (+ Protect). He can't sub-stall effectively. And Gourgeist Grass-typing is, for me, a great thing : Water / Ground resistances are huge, and you can generally play along the weaknesses.

I think that what differentiates Banette from Gourgeist is still the recovery, which is huge. It's basically one free sub each other turn.

 

[Pipotchi]

Couldn't you say the same thing about mega banette (ignoring its required setup turn for the sake of argument)? Granted it doesn't have leech seed, but it's got the priority destiny bond or substitute that it can do on switch-ins.

M-Banette is annoying once it gets going but it's not terribly difficult to play around. It just grinds your momentum to a halt and forces you to status it or find another way to kill it without losing one of your own pokes in the process. And he's RU!

Is there anything else that I'm forgetting besides better bulk and leech seed that m-banette doesn't have that makes gorgeist "too powerful for OU"? Or is it just those two things + the vulnerable prankster-less setup turn?

Mega banette is a mega slot. You will always be trading your most precious team slot for something of equal importance at MOST. The majority of the time, you will be trading down, and trading your mega slot for a less important pokemon on your enemy's team. With gourgeist this is flipped- you will always be trading for something of equal importance or higher, which is a huge change and makes it one of the safest additions possible for your team. A change in bulk etc is great too, but mainly its the fact that after doing whatever you wanted to achieve with gourgeist, you also get at least a 1 for 1 trade. With mega banette you almost never get your money's worth when you make the trade, which can be problematic if you don't manage to get much done before your time is up.

also gourgeist can hold focus sash, which guarantees it a free switch-in to bring a stop to any sweeper. Like imagine if ditto could hold focus sash as well as choice scarf and how op that would make it, being able to switch in and stop a sweep without even having to lose a pokemon first. It would instantly be crazily reliable as a revenge killer and probably reach S tier. Thats how I see the comparison between mega banette and gourgeist

 

[alexwolf]

It's voting time. You have 24 hours to vote and you must send your votes to Salemance.

 

[Salemance]

Voting will end at 9pm Central time or that's when I will call it. Make sure you send your votes in before and good luck! Hope your candidate wins!

Happy Voting!

 

[Valmanway]

Guys, if you want to vote, you gotta PM Salemance.

 

[U-Ralph]

Oh i'm so sorry, i read too fast but i enjoy that change

 

[En Passant]

Shouldn't you change the title to go with it? Also, why the change?

 

[amzaneok]

Shouldn't you change the title to go with it? Also, why the change?

Prevents bandwagon-ing.

 

[Salemance]

I guess it goes without saying that try not to delete this conversation as we can re-use it for future theorymons and all. Just thought I might need to say it and all :D

 

[Salemance]

DO NOT PM ME A VOTE CONTAINING SLACK OFF RHYPERIOR!

If you have done so, please re vote as rhyperior is no longer on the slate. Thank you! :D