Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[ShootingStarmie]

I'm sorry but are we really putting Gyarados in the same ranking as Terrakion? Gyarados gets pretty hard walled by a lot of Pokemon, and it's checked by so much stuff even at +1. Saying Gyarados is the best sweeper outside of Rain is pretty absurd, but it's your opinion I guess. I happen to think it's pretty mediocre, and I'll explain my reasons now.

It's weak to Stealth Rock

Stealth Rock should be assumed when entering the field, and Gyarados is taking 25% of it's health just from switching in. This deteriorates it's impressive bulk, as without the weakness to SR, it could switch into big threats (Keldeo, Politoed, etc) much easier.

Low Speed

While Dragon Dance does some what patch this up, it's still being out sped and KOed by common revenge killers. Terrakion, Latios, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, etc are all common choice scarf Pokemon that have the potential to OHKO Gyara after SR. It's also walled hard by quite a few Pokemon depending on it's moveset. Rotom-W, Skarmory, Latias, Ferrothorn etc can threaten it out if they have the correct moves / Gyarados doesn't have the correct moves. The standard Gyarados set I believe is Sub DD Bounce Waterfall, and with this set every Pokemon listed here can beat it.

It just isn't what it used to be

Base 125 attack just isn't all that great any more. The power creep from gen 4 to gen 5 was pretty insane, and now we have base 170 attackers running around with STAB Outrages (Banded Kyurem-B), Sheer Force Landorus, Specs Keldeo, Banded Terrakion etc. It just isn't hitting as hard as you'd like.

Predictable

There's basically only two sets I've ever seen Gyarados run. Rest Talk and Sub DD. Knowing this it's pretty easy to deal with.

Anyway, just my views on why Gyarados shouldn't be +A rank. I don't feel this Pokemon is a top threat unlike most if not all Pokemon in +A. A is fine for Gyarados now, and it will probably drop a rank if Landorus or Keldeo are banned.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Base 125 Attack is still good, it's just that Gyarados's main STAB move has relatively low Base Power. It also doesn't run a boosting item on its most common set. Calling base 125 Attack not "all that great anymore" isn't necessarily true, as Thundurus-I has base 125 Special Attack, and it's now Uber (of course, it has Nasty Plot, a more powerful STAB move, and often ran Life Orb). Comparing it to stuff like Choice Band Terrakion and citing their difference in base stats as what makes Terrakion much stronger isn't really accurate either.

Of course, I don't care what rank Gyarados is in, but using its base Attack as reasoning for it being comparatively weaker is misleading.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Stealth Rock-weak does not prevent a pokemon from rising ranks. Seriously this is hardly relevant. If youre using gyarados you have spin/magic bounce support and honestly i had been able to sweep teams easily even with rocks on the field. Who cares about its low speed as well, thats why youre using a substitute. In order to revenge kill gyarados you have to take a hit from it and it can then switch out and try to sweep later. No revenge killer can keep switching into gyarados through the match, also please explain me how is keldeo revenge killing gyarados at all when hidden power bug and ice are all the rage now. And no, base 125 is still pretty good. Keep in mind that terrakion and keldeo have base 129 offenses. And seriously:
4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 106-126 (30.02 - 35.69%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Just keep setuping and attacking . The only thing skarmory can do is phaze you, as he loses in last pokemon situations, ferrothorn loses if he has gyro ball while rotom w bulk set is forced to atk gyarados with volt switch, breaking the sub but being forced to switch out which means something else will have to tank a hit. ''Predictable'' is no argument either. Terrakion is very predictable as well yet sits at A+ Rank. @Ice cream theres no such thing as easily revenge killing gyarados. He simply setups a sub as you send in your revenge killer and hits it hard before switching out. None of these revenge killers (not even rotom-w) can keep tanking waterfalls and bounces through the match.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

A lot of Gyarados's use comes from its unique typing, while it brings a stealth rock weakness, it also brings a lot of useful resistances and immunities that help balanced teams in particular out: Fighting, Water, Ground, Bug, ect.

I do agreee though, it is ranked a bit to high for my tastes, I wouldn't mind seeing it (and maybe Lucario) drop, but they still have solid uses.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

You're asking for two turns of setup, no competent player is gonna give you that. Something like Skarmory or Perish song Politoed will fuck it up.



Stealth Rock limits that. And don't just say "Oh I can pack magic bounce and rapid spin user", it's not always going to work. And the things that can take a hit from it and KO back is plentiful, see Cloyster, D-nite, Kyurem-B, ect.



Why would Latios use Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor?

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 229-270 (64.87 - 76.48%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just a little bit of prior damage and it's GG for Gyarados.



Stealth Rock adds up you know, and BB still can do a chunk.



Great job cherry picking. Most Ferrothorn run power whip, and Gyro Ball breaks Gyara's sub at +1. Not to mention that Ferro can stall it out with Leech Seed + Protect. Making Bounce useless. Rotom-W breaking Gyarados's sub and switching into Latios or any other kind of fast Scarfer stops your cute little sweep. Not to mention that Sub+Stealth Rock will have Gyarados under 65%(counting Leftovers), making it easy pickings for that Latios I mentioned.



Yeah, because Gyarados can just keep switching in and out and not take any Stealth Rock damage, cause you know, your rapid spin user or magic bounce user will work every time, right?

He doesnt need two turns. The principle is the same as with kyurem-b sub sets. You set up a sub as they send in a check, then you either setup a dragon dance to outspeed and kill them next turn, or if theyre too bulk or fast you attack them before switching out. Your entire argument is based on Stealth Rocks being present on the field 100% of the time. Aside from being downright absurd it becomes more ridiculous when you were talking about volcarona and dragonite being superior, both of which have a lot more rocks problems. Also yes, i dont know why LatiAS would use dragon pulse. Seriously, if youre going to modify my arguments to suit your needs im done here.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

@Ice Cream For all you're saying about Rapid Spin users not working every time, well the same can be said about getting Stealth Rocks up. And there's a set for Latias called Calm Mind as well. And we probably shouldn't use Garchomp's SD set because you can switch into Scarf Latos or Scarf Keldeo and revenge kill it. Or if its Sub SD we can U-turn with our Scizor and revenge with Latios even if its Salac Berry. As for Gyarados, I think it is fine where it is. It doesn't have the immediate power and speed of Pokemon in A+ like Terrakion and Garchomp, but he's more a set-up and pay mon. Also just another nitpick, for everyone saying Skarmory is a sure-fire counter, you're forgetting about the Taunt+DD set and its Defensive set. Also, saying 125 Base Attack is a reason Gyarados is bad, is flat out stupid. That's the same number as Reuniclus, who's a major threat. The main problem with his is his weak STAB's and Bounce having the 2-turn effect. Gyarados also has 2 amazing abilities in Intimidate (Which makes setting up easier, if you say come in on a Ferrothorn Stealth Rock or Spikes) and Moxie (Which makes sweeping easier). His speed is a let down, but it is remedied to an extent by Dragon Dance. Also, his main checks are rather easy to wear down, with Skarmory and Ferrothorn being the only large exceptions. Rotom-W is ridiculously easy to wear down with Stealth Rocks and just chipping away at its health. Skarmory can be beaten after a little prior damage by running Taunt on your moveset. Not to mention its power is boosted in Rain. That's all I'm going to say for now since I feel i really got into a confusing as hell rant about this, but I don't think Gyarados should be any lower than A-Rank.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

Stealth Rock IS a given battle condition, that's been established by pretty much every good player. It's not ridiculous because it's true, look at every suspect thread. And even if Stealth Rock isn't there, the HP cost to setup a sub is equivalent to Stealth Rock. It's getting worn out one way or another. D-nite and Volca have reliable recovery fyi, but I guess that doesn't matter because Gyarados is bettur. Modify your argument? Who revenges it with Latias? You're using Latios. And Latias would much rather Roar it out anyway. I will admit that I misread that (one letter difference), but that doesn't make your argument any more substantial.

My main problem with your post was that you were saying that Rocks had to be given, but being able to get Rapid Spin to work was a completely unviable argument. Roost isn't used much on Dragonite because it would much rather have priority or another coverage move, but I do agree that it is better than Gyarados as a Dragon Dance sweeper. On Volcarona however, if rocks are up since they are a given battle condition, you lose a coverage move with your recovery slot and are now checked by many more Pokemon. And you're not in a very good situation either. If you roost, your opponent can just go into Terrakion or Keldeo. If you Quiver Dance, they still get that chance to switch in and if they have a Scarf, outspeed and KO. And yeah I agree that most people don't revenge it with Latias (I've seen a few scarf ones though), and Roar can phase Gyarados, but not many run Roar in the first place.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

This post might have a few typos because I'm typing from my moblie, so please excuse that.

Anyway

SSB

Stealth Rock is enough reason to not bring a Pokemon up a rating lol. By your logic, Moltres should be A+ rank. I mean why not? It counters top threats and SR shouldn't be a reason for it not going up right? You're acting as if caring Rapid Spinners / Magic Bouncers pvents SR 100% (hint: it doesn't).

What do you mean that a revenge Killer has to take a hit first? This just isn't true. You're assuming you have a Sub up, and you're at +1hich is very unlikey since Gyarados can't set up on much.

Also, you need to re-read my post. I said Keldeo has the potential to revenge kill it (which it does). If you're Gyara is at 50% with no sub and I bring in my Keldeo, are you really going to leave it in? Because even without HP electric, hydro pump in the rain (which is usually ran with Keldeo or Gyarados) is still taking it out.

Everything else I wanted to say was basically said very well by Ice cream.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Stealth Rock IS a given battle condition, that's been established by pretty much every good player. It's not ridiculous because it's true, look at every suspect thread. And even if Stealth Rock isn't there, the HP cost to setup a sub is equivalent to Stealth Rock. It's getting worn out one way or another. D-nite and Volca have reliable recovery fyi, but I guess that doesn't matter because Gyarados is bettur. Modify your argument? Who revenges it with Latias? You're using Latios. And Latias would much rather Roar it out anyway. I will admit that I misread that (one letter difference), but that doesn't make your argument any more substantial.

Im not saying gyarados should keep worning himself down through the entire game. But doing that early game to weaken its checks and then actually sweeping late game is what his set is the entire point of his set. What makes gyarados stand out is its excellent typing (which allow it to setup on the top 1 pokemon) , water stab (which you can either abuse yourself with your own rain, or turn the opponent rain against him/her) and ridiculous good abilities (moxie makes it nearly unstoppable once it starts killing, intimidate improves its sweeping chances). Btw if dnite and volca are running boosting move+roost they can get forced out by revenge killers and if they run substitute too they will have no coverage.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

This post might have a few typos because I'm typing from my moblie, so please excuse that.

Anyway

SSB

Stealth Rock is enough reason to not bring a Pokemon up a rating lol. By your logic, Moltres should be A+ rank. I mean why not? It counters top threats and SR shouldn't be a reason for it not going up right? You're acting as if caring Rapid Spinners / Magic Bouncers pvents SR 100% (hint: it doesn't).

What do you mean that a revenge Killer has to take a hit first? This just isn't true. You're assuming you have a Sub up, and you're at +1hich is very unlikey since Gyarados can't set up on much.

Also, you need to re-read my post. I said Keldeo has the potential to revenge kill it (which it does). If you're Gyara is at 50% with no sub and I bring in my Keldeo, are you really going to leave it in? Because even without HP electric, hydro pump in the rain (which is usually ran with Keldeo or Gyarados) is still taking it out.

Everything else I wanted to say was basically said very well by Ice cream.

You think that moltres would be A+Rank without rocks? You also think that rocks is the sole reason why a fire/flying mon with 90 speed isnt higher rank in a tier where water and electric moves are everywhere and 108 is the standard for speed? Also by this logic volcarona should be dropped since its murdered by all hazards. Rocks are not a good reason to keep an excellent pokemon from high ranks. Gyarados is a truly terrifying sweeper in and outside of rain and should not by shut down just because of that.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

This post might have a few typos because I'm typing from my moblie, so please excuse that.

Anyway

SSB

Stealth Rock is enough reason to not bring a Pokemon up a rating lol. By your logic, Moltres should be A+ rank. I mean why not? It counters top threats and SR shouldn't be a reason for it not going up right? You're acting as if caring Rapid Spinners / Magic Bouncers pvents SR 100% (hint: it doesn't).

What do you mean that a revenge Killer has to take a hit first? This just isn't true. You're assuming you have a Sub up, and you're at +1hich is very unlikey since Gyarados can't set up on much.

Also, you need to re-read my post. I said Keldeo has the potential to revenge kill it (which it does). If you're Gyara is at 50% with no sub and I bring in my Keldeo, are you really going to leave it in? Because even without HP electric, hydro pump in the rain (which is usually ran with Keldeo or Gyarados) is still taking it out.

Everything else I wanted to say was basically said very well by Ice cream.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

What do you mean that a revenge Killer has to take a hit first? This just isn't true. You're assuming you have a Sub up, and you're at +1hich is very unlikey since Gyarados can't set up on much.

Scizor, CC locked Terrakion, Surf/SS Keldeo, Draco locked Latios, Celebi, Volcarona, Spec D Jirachi, Toxicroak, Non-Specs Politoed, Breloom (When running Intimidate), Donphan, EQ or Fire move locked Chomp and SR Chomp with Dragon Claw (With Intimidate), Bulk Up Conk, Gastrodon, Gliscor, Heatran, Infernape lacking Stone Edge, Landorus without Psychic, Tentacruel, and Vaporeon lacking Roar...and that's only Pokemon in the current OU tier. Not even including UU Pokemon with a niche that see some decent usage. So yeah, definitely not much. Also you may want to delete your post glitches when you get back to a normal computer xD

Read my above post, the difference is between the number of Stealth rock users vs spinners. And the fact that hazards are usually setup on turn 1. Which pretty much makes them a given in any realistic situation.

I've had battles where offensive pressure turn one can keep the opponent from getting rocks up, not to mention that almost every team using Gyarados will be running a spinner since its mandatory support for him, as well as Volcarona and Dragonite.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Hey guys, I'm really sorry for the spammy posts, but my phone connection is terrible. I actually don't know how to delete posts with Smogon's new format, so I'm sorry about it being spammy. I expect the posts to be deleted (as well as this one).

 

[Subject 18]

Predictable

There's basically only two sets I've ever seen Gyarados run. Rest Talk and Sub DD. Knowing this it's pretty easy to deal with.

Anyway, just my views on why Gyarados shouldn't be +A rank. I don't feel this Pokemon is a top threat unlike most if not all Pokemon in +A. A is fine for Gyarados now, and it will probably drop a rank if Landorus or Keldeo are banned.

How can you say predictability is a reason to keep it from being A+ Rank while Breloom, the face of predictability, also sits in the A+ Rank? Every time you see a Breloom you have a pretty good idea of what it's going to do. Chances are it is going to Spore, Swords Dance and start Mach Punching. I'm not making a case for Gyarados since I have pretty limited experience using it. I just didn't think that your argument was very convincing.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

How can you say predictability is a reason to keep it from being A+ Rank while Breloom, the face of predictability, also sits in the A+ Rank? Every time you see a Breloom you have a pretty good idea of what it's going to do. Chances are it is going to Spore, Swords Dance and start Mach Punching. I'm not making a case for Gyarados since I have pretty limited experience using it. I just didn't think that your argument was very convincing.

^ This and the fact that Gyarados can run other sets. It can run Ice Fang over Bounce to hit Dragons and EQ so Ferro can't spam Protect on Bounce. Not to mention the Taunt set I brought up earlier. Also just a nitpick some people still run Poison Heal Loom, and it actually isn't bad atm. Nice and not expected as much so it can really wreck havoc. Also you can run Fighting Gem + Focus Punch over SD to nail common switch ins for tons of damage.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

You think that moltres would be A+Rank without rocks? You also think that rocks is the sole reason why a fire/flying mon with 90 speed isnt higher rank in a tier where water and electric moves are everywhere and 108 is the standard for speed? Also by this logic volcarona should be dropped since its murdered by all hazards. Rocks are not a good reason to keep an excellent pokemon from high ranks. Gyarados is a truly terrifying sweeper in and outside of rain and should not by shut down just because of that.

Wait a second, you just said that Electric attacks and low speed should prevent it from moving up (sounds a lot like Gyarados). I mean Moltres can boost it's speed with Agility, so what's the difference? Also. My logic isn't that Volcarona shouldn't move down, but I believe being so weak to SR is one of the biggest reasons it isn't S rank

How can you say predictability is a reason to keep it from being A+ Rank while Breloom, the face of predictability, also sits in the A+ Rank? Every time you see a Breloom you have a pretty good idea of what it's going to do. Chances are it is going to Spore, Swords Dance and start Mach Punching. I'm not making a case for Gyarados since I have pretty limited experience using it. I just didn't think that your argument was very convincing.

You're acting as if that was my only reason Gyara shouldn't move up to +A rank. This is one of the many reasons it shouldn't move up. While I disagree with you that Breloom is predictable (it can run an amazing wall breaker set with Focus Punch and fighting Gem, requiring different checks), it doesn't matter if Breloom is predictable, because it has so much else going for it, unlike Gyarados.

 

[Gary]

Icecream, I see where you're coming from with a lot of your arguments against Gyarados being A+ Rank, but seriously, there is no need to be rude about it. You need to learn to respect other people's opinions towards specific Pokemon's viability, and if you don't agree with it, there's no harm in stating your reasoning, but calling us "fanboys" for thinking a certain Pokemon deserves more usage then it's getting, is just plain rude. Every time you argue against something, you seem to overreact like it's some kind of huge deal or something. If you don't think Gyarados deserves A+ rank, then tell us why, instead of just rudely striking down anyone who disagrees with you. It's ruining competitive discussion, and it could possibly keep other players from posting their thoughts out of fear of being shot down. If people are putting words in your mouth, just ignore them. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. I feel like their's no need to reiterate any further.

Anyways, I just wanted to share my thoughts about my recent experiences with Toxicroak. I'm not asking to bump it up a rank or lower it, but I just want to share my thoughts. First of all, up until a few days ago, I've never tried Toxicroak, most likely because I'm not a huge fan of using weather. Now, I'm happy I got the courage to build a rain team with Toxicroak, because this thing is fucking fantastic. The SD set is comparable to Lucario in sweeping potential, because it packs similar power, coverage, and priority. Unlike Lucario, Toxicroak can't be stalled out by LO recoil due to Dry Skin, and on top of it, Croak is actually gaining an extra 2% each turn instead of losing 10%. Sucker Punch beats out Latios and Latias, two very common checks to almost all of Croak's other sets, while also KOing Salamence after SR. It can KO Max HP Jirachi with Cross Chop, its a fantastic Keldeo check, it can switch into anything that Breloom wants to throw at it bar Spore, and it's a great check to Terrakion as well. It can use opposing Tentacruel as setup fodder because it can't do shit against Croak due to its immunity to Scald and Toxic. Even Jellicent can't technically beat Croak 1v1, because all Jellicent can do is burn it, while Croak can just setup to +6 and kill it with Sucker Punch or even Ice Punch. Overall, I used to wonder why Toxicroak was all the way in B+ rank with other notable rain threats such as the extremely potent Tornadus, Lucario, and Magnezone, but now I can clearly see why. It's reliance on rain keeps it from going any higher, but it's such a good sweeper in rain that I can clearly see why B+ rank fits it well.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Wait a second, you just said that Electric attacks and low speed should prevent it from moving up (sounds a lot like Gyarados). I mean Moltres can boost it's speed with Agility, so what's the difference? Also. My logic isn't that Volcarona shouldn't move down, but I believe being so weak to SR is one of the biggest reasons it isn't S rank

Moltres cant boost its offenses, moltres cant tank water moves, moltres stabs arent boosted by rain. Moltres like every single fire type has a hard time surviving in a rain dominated metagame while gyarados as a water type is hugely benefited by it. Volcarona has SO many problems besides rocks including horrible typing, horrible coverage options leaving it easily walled regardless of its choices, physically frail, easily revenge killed by common scarfers (unlike gyarados it has no room for substitute due to its already limited coverage). Again, rocks alone arent preventing anything from going up ranks, thats a very simple view of a pokemon viability. Since gyarados is able to overcome its speed problems with dragon dance+substitute and is able to overcome physical walls with rain boosted waterfalls and stealth rock remain as the only flaw it needs team support to deal with it perfectly fits into A+ Rank as a top tier threat.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Moltres cant boost its offenses, moltres cant tank water moves, moltres stabs arent boosted by rain. Moltres like every single fire type has a hard time surviving in a rain dominated metagame while gyarados as a water type is hugely benefited by it. Volcarona has SO many problems besides rocks including horrible typing, horrible coverage options leaving it easily walled regardless of its choices, physically frail, easily revenge killed by common scarfers (unlike gyarados it has no room for substitute due to its already limited coverage). Again, rocks alone arent preventing anything from going up ranks, thats a very simple view of a pokemon viability. Since gyarados is able to overcome its speed problems with dragon dance+substitute and is able to overcome physical walls with rain boosted waterfalls and stealth rock remain as the only flaw it needs team support to deal with it perfectly fits into A+ Rank as a top tier threat.

Sorry but you obviously have no experiance with using Moltres. Rain boosts its Flying Stab as it can freely Spam 100% accurate moves, while it can also be terrifiying for Sun Teams to face, because of it's choice specs boosted Fire Bla in the Sun. You're acting as if Moltres should be taking water type attacks, which is just plain silly. Moltres doesn't need to boost it's offenses, as it's generally strong enough with Choice Specs or a LO (neither of which Gyara run) and runs full EVs investent (again, Gyra doesn't run).

I've already explained to you how Dragon Dance doesn't fix Gyara's speed issue, while Agility on Moltres does fix it's speed.

As for Volcarona, I said the main it isn't S rank is because of stealh. But hey, this is theory mon, and it's just my opinion, but I'm sure most people would agree that Volcarona would be S rank without it's SR weakness.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Sorry but you obviously have no experiance with using Moltres. Rain boosts its Flying Stab as it can freely Spam 100% accurate moves, while it can also be terrifiying for Sun Teams to face, because of it's choice specs boosted Fire Bla in the Sun. You're acting as if Moltres should be taking water type attacks, which is just plain silly. Moltres doesn't need to boost it's offenses, as it's generally strong enough with Choice Specs or a LO (neither of which Gyara run) and runs full EVs investent (again, Gyra doesn't run).

I've already explained to you how Dragon Dance doesn't fix Gyara's speed issue, while Agility on Moltres does fix it's speed.

As for Volcarona, I said the main it isn't S rank is because of stealh. But hey, this is theory mon, and it's just my opinion, but I'm sure most people would agree that Volcarona would be S rank without it's SR weakness.

As powerful as moltres hurricanes are it still cant boost it further to break through special walls unlike gyarados who can break through physical walls and gyarados rain boosted waterfalls are every bit as powerful as moltres hurricanes. Moltres shouldnt be taking water moves because its weak to them. Tanking water moves is crucial in this meta and gyarados ability to do that gives it a huge advantage over other sweepers. Also gyarados runs full investment in atk, what are you even talking about.

 

[MikeDawg]

Just to clarify, the general bulkydos "standard" doesn't use max attack. But the spread that I've seen accepted by multiple top-tier battlers (lavos for example) does use 252+.

You lose the ability to outspeed scarf 108s, but if you are behind a sub that is irrelevant as they are likely the only poke on the other team that outspeeds you and the sub saves you (and keldeo cant do much anyway)

 

[ShootingStarmie]

As powerful as moltres hurricanes are it still cant boost it further to break through special walls unlike gyarados who can break through physical walls and gyarados rain boosted waterfalls are every bit as powerful as moltres hurricanes. Moltres shouldnt be taking water moves because its weak to them. Tanking water moves is crucial in this meta and gyarados ability to do that gives it a huge advantage of other sweepers. Also gyarados runs full investment in atk, what are you even talking about.

Okay, let me get this straight. Gyarados isn't getting past physical walls like Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and Hurricane is hitting much harder on neutral Pokemon. The problem is that Moltres isn't trying to get past Blissey, and I never said it could. It's meant to wall break and it actually does get past a lot of special walls like Jirachi and Celebi. Yes taking water moves is crucial in this game, but if you're really going to use this argument then you could say its crucial to not be SR weak. And yeah, that was a mistake on my part, Gyarados does run full attack, but my point still stands that it's weaker than Moltres.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

Volcarona's coverage isn't bad...

Icecream, Ferrothorn can't break Gyarados's Substitutes with Power Whip when using the common 168 HP / 4 Def EV spread and Gyarados can set-up multiple Dragon Dance's and smack it with Bounce, which it doesn't resist.

^ He nailed it. You always say that you can't assume you can get a rapid spin...well you can't assume Ferrothorn is running Protect. And yeah Volcarona has pretty good coverage, with the only Pokemon I think of atm that can wall its STABs are Keldeo, Terrakion, Gyarados, Heatran, Moltres, and Dragonite (Not counting Mence because its frail as hell and iirc +1 Fire Blast OHKO's with rocks up). And people aren't saying Gyarados should be A+ because they're fanboys lol. I think it should stay A, but I can see why people would think it could be A+. Its one of those Pokemon thats right on the brink for me, since it has defined counters that can be difficult to play around, but some are easily worn down. That and it if you're not prepared for it, it can wreck you easily.

Okay, let me get this straight. Gyarados isn't getting past physical walls like Skarmory.

Once again, people run Taunt DD if their team can handle Rotom-W easily and they have rain support.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Just to keep this clear, the reason i said volca has bad coverage is because fire+bug is easily walled by several threats and volca only has room for one coverage move. If it could run hp rock, giga drain, dual stabs on the same set without losing quiver dance it would definitely be unwallable save for sp def tran which can tank hp rocks.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Once again, people run Taunt DD if their team can handle Rotom-W easily and they have rain support.

Okay, just remember that Gyarados only has 4 move slots like every other Pokemon. If its running Taunt then I'm guessing its dropping Bounce? I'm not sure on that, but if it is dropping Bounce then so many other Pokemon deal with it. Keldeo, Toxicroak, Jellicent, Vaporeon etc. However if it drops Sub, then you're going to be easy to deal with for Rotom and other Electric types (I know you said you run Taunt when you can deal with electric types, but there are ways around that, and isn't a justification to say Rotom doesn't deal with it).