OU The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Halcyon.]

Thundurus-T, Volcarona, Venusaur, Specs Politoed, Magnezone, Heatran, all beat Jirachi. Jirachi can't touch Gengar, but I guess it can spam Wish+Protect. Jirachi also needs rain support to survive fire attacks, but weakens itself more by giving it a pseudo-weakness to Water.

 

[PDC]

Volcorona, Heatran, Hydreigon, Kyurem-B (some variants like CB Can just straight up 2HKO), Venusaur (HP Fire + Sun does (90.09 - 106.18%) at +2), Thundurus-T, NP Celebi, Starmie, and Kingdra to be exact can all break through Jirachi. Under Rain, which Jirachi is commonly seen, Kingdra can absolutely break down Jirachi with a Choice Specs Surf or Hydro Pump. Sometimes, Jirachi can't even beat the dragons it's supposed too without a paralysis. In fact, Jirachi relies on its paralysis for checking most of the Pokemon it is praised for beating.

 

[MikeDawg]

I think one of the largest draws to jirachi is its ability to hax things (body slam paralysis, iron head flinch, etc.)

But the fact that this is a somewhat significant part of using it also means it is somewhat unreliable as you can go entire games without a single para/flinch/etc., failing to perform a big part of why we were using it

If you are going for a tourney win (especially one where you are a bit outmatched), it's great.

But in ladder runs it is bound to disappoint more times than you would like

 

[Magcargo]

Am I the only one who thinks that Hydregion and Salamence should be the same rank? I mean, both have good, but not great speed, both have a mediocre defensive typing and both are amazing Wallbreakers. They have small advantages over each, but in the end, both are exactly the same.

I agree that these two guys should go up to S-Rank. Terrakion is amazing, despite its weakness to priority. It, along with Keldeo, set the Speed tier in BW2. Its amazing STAB combo not only means that only a handful of pokemon can counter it, but it also means that Terrakion can run any move that it wants to in the last two slots. This means that you customize the last two slots for your team's needs. This is what makes Terrakion such a good lead, as it can set up Stealth Rock reliably and threaten opposing leads with either taunt or its STAB moves. Its not as good as it was in BW1, but its still good enough for S-Rank IMO.

Garchomp is very similar to Terrakion, except that it has worse speed, but weaknesses less priority moves and better defenses than terrakion. The main difference between Terrakion and Garchomp, however, is that Garchomp can get past all of its counters rather well. Skarmory and Bronzong take a large amount of damage from a Sun boosted Fire Blast, while Landorus-T and Gliscor cannot tank Rain boosted Aqua Tails. Garchomp is an amazing offensive lead, thanks to its access to SR, its amazing STAB combo and most importantly, Rough Skin. Rough Skin allows Chomp to beat other leads using contact moves, as Garchomp is powerful enough to bring down opposing leads to their Focus Sash (assuming that its running Fire Blast). Another cool thing about Chomp is that its one on the few offensive pokemon in the tier able to run a defensive set. Thanks to its good 108 / 95 / 85 defenses, Garchomp can make use of its rather decent support movepool, including options like Stealth Rock and Dragon Tail. Overall both Garchomp and Terrakion are amazing pokemon in the metagame and should be upgraded to S-rank.

Sorry if I was confusing.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I dunno about Terrakion. People are picking other Fighting types (like Keldeo and Breloom) over Terrakion, and you can see why when you realise both Breloom and Keldeo can function in Sand AND Rain, where as Terrakion can only really work amazingly in Sand. Sure, you can put Terrakion in a Rain team, but it just isn't "as good" as the other 2.

Then there's priorty. Scizor is the most common Pokemon in OU, and Breloom is in the top 10, prehaps the best checks to Terrakion (when isn't behind a Sub). Latios is also a pretty good check to Terrakion, which is also seeing really high usage (I believe it's in top 10, but don't quote me on that one).

And finally we talk about Terrakion's counter(s). I believe Landorus-T is a counter to Terrakion, as Terrakion misses the 2HKO on Landorus-T with Stone Edge after SR (and I haven't even mentioned how much 80% accuracy sucks). Landorus-T is also being using a lot in the metagame (I think it's top 20). I could also mention lesser used counter, like Slowbro, Gliscor, and Tangrowth, but I think I've got my point across. Not S rank imo.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Am I the only one who thinks that Hydregion and Salamence should be the same rank? I mean, both have good, but not great speed, both have a mediocre defensive typing and both are amazing Wallbreakers. They have small advantages over each, but in the end, both are exactly the same.

I agree that these two guys should go up to S-Rank. Terrakion is amazing, despite its weakness to priority. It, along with Keldeo, set the Speed tier in BW2. Its amazing STAB combo not only means that only a handful of pokemon can counter it, but it also means that Terrakion can run any move that it wants to in the last two slots. This means that you customize the last two slots for your team's needs. This is what makes Terrakion such a good lead, as it can set up Stealth Rock reliably and threaten opposing leads with either taunt or its STAB moves. Its not as good as it was in BW1, but its still good enough for S-Rank IMO.

Garchomp is very similar to Terrakion, except that it has worse speed, but weaknesses less priority moves and better defenses than terrakion. The main difference between Terrakion and Garchomp, however, is that Garchomp can get past all of its counters rather well. Skarmory and Bronzong take a large amount of damage from a Sun boosted Fire Blast, while Landorus-T and Gliscor cannot tank Rain boosted Aqua Tails. Garchomp is an amazing offensive lead, thanks to its access to SR, its amazing STAB combo and most importantly, Rough Skin. Rough Skin allows Chomp to beat other leads using contact moves, as Garchomp is powerful enough to bring down opposing leads to their Focus Sash (assuming that its running Fire Blast). Another cool thing about Chomp is that its one on the few offensive pokemon in the tier able to run a defensive set. Thanks to its good 108 / 95 / 85 defenses, Garchomp can make use of its rather decent support movepool, including options like Stealth Rock and Dragon Tail. Overall both Garchomp and Terrakion are amazing pokemon in the metagame and should be upgraded to S-rank.

Sorry if I was confusing.

I don't think Salamence should be in B+ rank because
A.) Salamence's base 100 speed over base 98 DOES make a difference as it can speed tie with all the base 100's or be faster if it is running choice scarf or speed nature.
B.) Salamence has better typing as Dark/Dragon leaves you weak to U-turn and Mach Punch while Salamence resists both of those moves. Dragon/Flying does give you a SR weakness but not being weak to Bug/Fighting is better IMO due to the popularity of U-turn and Mach Punch.
C.) Salamence has Moxie as an ability which makes it very deadly as it can become unstoppable after a boost or 2. Hydregion has levitate which is a useful ability but in terms of sweeping/wall breaking I find Moxie better.
D.) Salamence has access to Dragon Dance while Hydregion does not. This is mainly useful as it can boost its speed as well as its attack. Combined with Moxie this can make Salamence very hard to stop. While Hydregion doesn't really get to use any boosting moves without giving up one of its coverage moves.
E.) Salamence has better mixed attacking stats than Hydregion with 135/110/100 vs 105/125/98. Hydregion may have the edge on special attack but Salamence still has a better speed and significantly better attack while not as worse special attack. I feel that this makes Salamence the better mixed attacker than Hydregion.

This is just my Opinion but overall I find Salamence a better pokemon than Hydregion for the reasons stated above.

I Don't think that Terrakion should move to S rank for reasons starmie already stated but I agree with Garchomp as it really is a good 'mon with a lot of flexible sets and can be quite unpredictable. It runs a scarf,band, sub-salac, and a support set all very well among other sets I really think it could be S rank as really the only thing that kinda counters it is Skarmory and Bronzong.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

There is no real difference between base 98 and base 100 anymore. The only other base 100 that runs max speed at all is volcarona and even if hydreigon was faster than it it would still lose and even if salamence was slower than it it would still beat it.

 

[BKC]

I agree with Jirachi and Garchomp for S rank, they are easily two of the best mons in the metagame. Jirachi can do a million different things, while Garchomp isn't as diverse but still has his fair share of what he can do and is incredibly powerful. Both can fit in on literally any kind of team and are the essence of consistent efficiency.

Not so sure about Terrakion but honestly I wouldn't be opposed to him moving up there as well.

 

[Lazybeef]

While we are talking about how S-rank is too thin and how some things could be moved up, I am going to nominate Scizor for S-rank.

It can run a variety of sets, and is extemely hard to counter because of how well it utilizes U-turn. Pokemon that can take on one set might not be able to handle a different set. For example, skarm and gliscor can handle the CB variant, but they are both decimated by the offensive SD variant.

Scizor can greatly benefit a team, and it requires very little support to do so.

Edit: Oops, I mistook Scizor for lucario in the case with skarm. Scizor cannot OHKO skarm even after a boost. MB.

 

[Homeslice]

Garchomp and Jirachi yes, Terrakion and Scizor no. Rachi and Chomp for reasons stated about, Terrakion isn't good enough (seriously, this has been brought up so many times, there was a very good argument against it about 7ish pages back I think, go look at it, it's not moving up) And as for Scizor, no, I'll try to make this as organized as possible

Firstly, when people see how high Scizor's usage is they automatically think it's the best Pokemon. While it's surely A+ Rank material, it simply is not S rank. If you look at the two S-Rank mons, one is Politoed, who brings in the absolute most powerful and abundant weather in the game, and the other is Keldeo, one who anyone can argue has almost no counter and can simply get around most anything with an Hidden Power as coverage. Keldeo is also the strongest special attacker in the game, and has a great Speed tier. Keldeo will almost never give your opponent free turns or have you lose momentum, and Politoed sets up these factors for almost the whole game, and can actually somewhat support the team unlike Ninetales. Scizor does not almost guarantee huge momentum like the other two. A Choice-locked Scizor (the most common one) is extremely easy to force out, once you know he's choiced (which really, you can figure out based off what he does in his first couple turns) all you have to do is bring in a resist to whatever he's locked into. Magnezone and Gothielle can easily come in and outright OHKO him (Magnezone more than Goth, she just has to come in on not U-Turn or Pursuit) and almost anything faster that resists BP (or in some cases can just be neutral to it) can usually come in and 1-2HKO Scizor. I'm not saying he doesn't hit hard, just sometimes it's not enough or it's easy to play around.

Next, this versatility Lazybeef brought up in that one set's counter loses to another set simply isn't completely true. Skarmory hard counters Scizor under all circumstances. If it's SD, Skarmory usually runs Taunt or Whirlwind. No other set has the immediate power to break through him, and Skarmory has time too do whatever it wants. While Forretress isn't able to do anything back to Scizor, it's pretty much in the same boat except Scizor can set up a couple of Sword Dances on it. Hippodown can handle all sets also, and Gliscor usually can unless Scizor is running something crazy like HP Ice. He's got a list of hard counters and they're good at their job.

Lastly, Scizor is limited to a certain set of moves in almost all of his sets. What scizor is every going to run something outside of Bullet Punch/U-Turn or Bug Bite? All other sets will either lose coverage by using SD, or have Pursuit or Superpower on them, with the extent of Scizor's coverage going to his Acrobatics set (Flying type moves). It could also run Roost, but again is losing out on coverage it wants.

While Scizor certainly is a menace, I'm simply not worried about him when I see him in Team Preview like I am with mons like Rachi/Keldeo/Chomp. He's easy to handle, and I don't think he has a HUGE amount of pros that outweigh cons to make him S-Rank. His pros certainly outweigh his cons, but not as much as those in S-Rank do.

 

[Sam]

I made posts about moving TTar up to S and Gothitelle up to A- that seemed to get no discussion. While TTar's viability may have gone down a bit when Lando was banned, it's still the best pursuit trapper and it's support is as good, if not better than Politoed's imo.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I made posts about moving TTar up to S and Gothitelle up to A- that seemed to get no discussion. While TTar's viability may have gone down a bit when Lando was banned, it's still the best pursuit trapper and it's support is as good, if not better than Politoed's imo.

Don't get me wrong, Tyranitar is an amazing Pokemon, but it doesn't support a team as much as Politoed. It doesn't even come close imo. The benefits that rain bring to the table far out weigh the benefits that sand brings. Yeah Tyranitar also supports the team in countering Latios, but then I feel you're putting too much pressure in winning the weather war and countering Latios. Then we talk about Tyranitar's x4 weakness to Fighting type attacks, which are everywhere in OU. Also being weak to Ground, Water, Grass, Bug, and Steel, and I don't think we have an S rank Pokemon here.

Tyranitar is great, but S rank? Na

 

[GCSChris]

While we are talking about how S-rank is too thin and how some things could be moved up, I am going to nominate Scizor for S-rank.

It can run a variety of sets, and is extemely hard to counter because of how well it utilizes U-turn. Pokemon that can take on one set might not be able to handle a different set. For example, skarm and gliscor can handle the CB variant, but they are both decimated by the offensive SD variant.

Scizor can greatly benefit a team, and it requires very little support to do so.

The thing with Scizor is he is pretty much CB(like 95% of the time, at least in my experiences) or SD. That's not that many sets, though I agree with you that it is a versatile pokemon, but I really can't see it being S-rank due to it's predictability of which set it runs. Taking into consideration the definition of S-rank and how good Scizor is, I still see it as A because of its lack of many sets.

I made posts about moving TTar up to S and Gothitelle up to A- that seemed to get no discussion. While TTar's viability may have gone down a bit when Lando was banned, it's still the best pursuit trapper and it's support is as good, if not better than Politoed's imo.

Tyranitar is an incredible pokemon. However, like ShootinStarmie said it's weak to a lot of common types, and come NOWHERE NEAR the support Politoed supplies for its team. T-tar is great along with the sand it brings, giving rock types a SpDef boost, but T-tar will probably be the only rock type on the team. Don't get me wrong, this boost is awesome. T-tar has amazing attack and boosted SpDef when he summons Sand, as well as amazing utility against Lati@s. However, Politoed (and rain as a weather) is on a whole new level above T-tar (and sand). Politoed can run a multitude of sets and brings a +1 boost to all water moves and halves Fire attacks for the entire team with its rain. This utility outweighs chip damage (let's not forget its on both sides) and a SpDef boost to Rock-types by a landslide. No Pokemon in OU even compares to the utility Politoed brings to a team, which is why it is S-rank. I love T-Tar, use it a lot, and it's one of the best OU Pokemon in BW2, but it's not S-rank.

Also, I have little experience using/against Gotheitelle, but I really don't think it's A- rank material; I'm surprised it's as high as it is.

 

[Sam]

The point I made in an earlier post is that TTar's level of support isn't limited to just sand. Pursuit support (although I made this argument when Lando-I was still around, so it isn't as strong anymore), with the addition of sand, is pretty what brings TTar close to Politoed. It's able to make certain Pokemon (well now, mainly Keldeo though other months appreciate the support) that much better. Perhaps as good as Politoed? Maybe not, but it's still top level support in the tier. It isn't exactly a slouch on offense, either.

As for the weaknesses, TTar isn't really going to fall to a SE attack that isn't fighting, and the majority of the time that's either telegraphed pretty easily. At the same time, most fighting types are common choice users, and forcing the opponent in to a choiced fighting type attack early in the battle (where TTar is more commonly used) is a liability and opens up hole for more switch-ins. It's typing may not be a blessing, but it certainly isn't terrible given its stats.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Defensive Politoed is complete trash imo; it's better off using Choice Specs. Politoed is imo better if it just fires extremely powerful Hydro Pumps. Tyranitar, however, has monstrous special bulk in the sand and can actually set up Stealth Rock and get rid of many more threats (like Forretress). Tyranitar's quad-weakness to fighting-type attacks is why stuff like Gothitelle and Lati@s are its best partners. Pursuit is also an amazing move, and is one of Tyranitar's keys to success.
The special defense boost it gets from sandstorm somewhat makes up for T-tar's 7 weaknesses. And did we forget about its other sets? Bandtar for example puts Tyranitar at a massive base 604 Attack. Nothing really wants to take a Stone Edge unless it resists it (Conkeldurr). Scarftar is a great revenge killer, and a great trapper as well, thanks to it being faster than stuff like Lati@s, Gengar, stuff like that.

Tyranitar deserves to be S rank imo.

 

[PDC]

Defensive Politoed has its merits, as it actually is a lot bulkier than you think. It is a pretty decent fail-safe most of the time due to a bulky Perish Song force out or a Toxic + Protect crippling effect. Tyranitar is cool, but it really is taking a completely more offensive role at the moment than a defensive Rocker one. Choice Scarf is really regaining popularity and becoming a completely new threat with Keldeo and the now banned Landorus-I. Tyranitar is a great Pokemon, but S Rank is overkill. Tyranitar has so many weaknesses to priority and overall disadvantages that prevent it from being S Rank due to its plethora of common weaknesses. Sure, Tyranitar is a great trapper who works amazingly with some of the top sweepers in the metagame right now, but that doesn't itself bring it up to S Rank. Tyranitar is definitely a good A Rank Pokemon, but it really just doesn't fit S Rank at all. The new metagame has been kind, yet unforgiving to it. Keldeo and Breloom have a huge resurgence in popularity and both completely shut it down. Rain teams completely put less bulky Tyranitar under immense pressure as they can't switch in too often as almost always they will be at a disadvantage. It is decently vulnerable to hazards and against some teams it can literally just sit their and do nothing.

 

[MikeDawg]

Can someone please elaborate/give a log/something to explain why chomp is s-rank (or even really A+ rank? I simply don't see it and never really had much success using it, nor have I struggled against it.

Yes, it can run a few sets (with a few meaning sr lead, sd, and scarf for the most part, with possible minor variations) but it really isn't spectacular at any of them from what I've seen.

I think the SR set is its best bet atm. It has the ability to almost always get up rocks and possibly do some damage on a favorable matchup (though its two move coverage is very easily walled by something like skarmory)

The SD set is just not that great atm. Unless you are facing an unfortunately slow team (in which case there are more threatening things than chomp to look out for), 102 speed does not cut it, especially when one of its weaknesses is one of the most common offensive types in the game. It is outsped and 1hkod by very common pokes (starmie, latis, keldeo, mamoswine, etc.) meaning that you don't ever need even a good check to it as forcing it into outrage (or coming in on setup) will mean death for it. I think yache berry is an underrated option as now it can only be "revenged" by dragons, but the odds of coming across a team with hp ice keldeo as the only thing faster than chomp are not good. Sub salac is swell, I guess, aside from the fact that priority is everywhere and priority users aren't all that easy to do away with.

The scarf set just isn't all that great of an idea unless you offer ample support. Locking yourself into a ground move or an unboosted outrage (ie virtually all of garchomp's options) is an awful idea and is just asking to get set up on (be it hazards or dragon dances).

If there is error in my observations, someone please correct me (pls with evidence, not just theorymon. Ty <3), but as of right now I can't see garchomp as being anything more than a solid poke.

 

[Hot N Cold]

SR + 3 atk or SR + SD with rocky helmet / sash is probably the most utility set of Garchomp, Sword Dance all out attacker is just probably most wallbreaking set to break everything (physical skarmory in Rain is clean 2hko by LO Garchomp aqua tail after a Sword Dance thought) or just SubSalac which can sweep if you lacks of a faster scarfer / priority users. Choice Scarf Garchomp have nice things over others scarfers like resistances to Stealth Rock, Dual Chomp beats some of the most dangerous Substitutes users like SubCM Latias or SubKyurem (both) with a great bulk also Rough Skin is very underrated, on offensive teams this is a way to deal with stuff like Scizor, Jirachi or Breloom, Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet quits 29%~ of the health to the opponent iirc Which is very nice since Garchomp can take 2-3 atacks wear down a lot of physical threats such Scarf Jirachi or CB Scizor.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Nominating Tangrowth for B- ranking

Tangrowth is ridiculously bulky on the physical side. Base 100 HP and base 125 def make this thing nearly impossible to break down on the physical side. It's one of the few counters to top physical power houses, like Banded Terrakion, Banded Tyranitar, and Dragon Dance Dragonite. Not even Skarmory can claim to counter these Pokemon. Tangrowth is no slouch offensively either, as it has a very respectable base 110 special attack, allowing it to not be set up bait for Sweepers. Tangrowth also has pretty reliable recovery in the form of Regenerator, so it's not like you can even wear Tangrowth down. The given EVs allow Tangrowth to tank just about any physical attack.

Sleep Powder offers great utility, as it basically makes one Pokemon useless for the rest of the game on your opponents side. Giga Drain is STAB, and hits pretty nicely on Water types like Politoed and Rotom-W. It also offers some recovery, which can be nice is some situations. HP Ice offers the best coverage for Tangrowth, as it hits Dragonite, Salamence, and Landorus-T, all threats that Tangrowth will be switching into. Leech Seed offers even more recovery, as well as forcing a lot of switches, racking up residual damage.

The main reason why I wouldn't nominate Tangrowth any higher is mainly because its outclassed by Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has steel typing, allowing it to tank Dragon type attacks better than Tangrowth. Ferrothorn also has much better SpDef, and access to SR and Spikes. The only benefits I can think of when using Tangrowth > Ferrothorn is Regenerator, and Sleep Powder.

 

[MCBarrett]

Nominating Tangrowth for B- ranking

Tangrowth is ridiculously bulky on the physical side. Base 100 HP and base 125 def make this thing nearly impossible to break down on the physical side. It's one of the few counters to top physical power houses, like Banded Terrakion, Banded Tyranitar, and Dragon Dance Dragonite. Not even Skarmory can claim to counter these Pokemon. Tangrowth is no slouch offensively either, as it has a very respectable base 110 special attack, allowing it to not be set up bait for Sweepers. Tangrowth also has pretty reliable recovery in the form of Regenerator, so it's not like you can even wear Tangrowth down. The given EVs allow Tangrowth to tank just about any physical attack.

Sleep Powder offers great utility, as it basically makes one Pokemon useless for the rest of the game on your opponents side. Giga Drain is STAB, and hits pretty nicely on Water types like Politoed and Rotom-W. It also offers some recovery, which can be nice is some situations. HP Ice offers the best coverage for Tangrowth, as it hits Dragonite, Salamence, and Landorus-T, all threats that Tangrowth will be switching into. Leech Seed offers even more recovery, as well as forcing a lot of switches, racking up residual damage.

The main reason why I wouldn't nominate Tangrowth any higher is mainly because its outclassed by Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has steel typing, allowing it to tank Dragon type attacks better than Tangrowth. Ferrothorn also has much better SpDef, and access to SR and Spikes. The only benefits I can think of when using Tangrowth > Ferrothorn is Regenerator, and Sleep Powder.

I could see Tangrowth in C rank because it really does need a good amount of support to be effective. It needs a Special Wall of some sort to be paired with since its special defense is absolutely abysmal for a Defensive Pokemon. Plus it also needs some support in the form of a Rapid Spinner to make its Regenerator ability any useful. While these types of Pokemon usually lend themselves to the type of team Tangrowth would be seen on, namely Stall teams, it is a pretty significant amount of support nonetheless and Tangrowth absolutely needs it to be effective. Plus it is outclassed by Ferrothorn like you said and arguably Amoonguss as well, despite it being more specially bulky it can take Fighting Type moves just as well thanks to its Poison Typing. Roserade is a similar Poke that is more effective as well thanks to its ability to lay down entry hazards effectively and its more reliable form of Recovery. However, like you said it has some great niches, being able to tank Physical attacks like a champ and having access to Sleep Powder are pretty useful so it seems like a worthy C rank poke to me.

 

[Spinda]

Nominating Tangrowth for B- ranking

Tangrowth is ridiculously bulky on the physical side. Base 100 HP and base 125 def make this thing nearly impossible to break down on the physical side. It's one of the few counters to top physical power houses, like Banded Terrakion, Banded Tyranitar, and Dragon Dance Dragonite. Not even Skarmory can claim to counter these Pokemon. Tangrowth is no slouch offensively either, as it has a very respectable base 110 special attack, allowing it to not be set up bait for Sweepers. Tangrowth also has pretty reliable recovery in the form of Regenerator, so it's not like you can even wear Tangrowth down. The given EVs allow Tangrowth to tank just about any physical attack.

Sleep Powder offers great utility, as it basically makes one Pokemon useless for the rest of the game on your opponents side. Giga Drain is STAB, and hits pretty nicely on Water types like Politoed and Rotom-W. It also offers some recovery, which can be nice is some situations. HP Ice offers the best coverage for Tangrowth, as it hits Dragonite, Salamence, and Landorus-T, all threats that Tangrowth will be switching into. Leech Seed offers even more recovery, as well as forcing a lot of switches, racking up residual damage.

The main reason why I wouldn't nominate Tangrowth any higher is mainly because its outclassed by Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has steel typing, allowing it to tank Dragon type attacks better than Tangrowth. Ferrothorn also has much better SpDef, and access to SR and Spikes. The only benefits I can think of when using Tangrowth > Ferrothorn is Regenerator, and Sleep Powder.

Tangrowth has insane physical bulk, it takes physical dragon attacks well enough. I'd argue not having a steel typing is what sets it apart from Ferrothorn because it doesn't need rain to beat things like ddnite, it can actually wall fighting types, etc. it has a resistance to earthquake which is actually a huge help. It might not have as many resistances, but it has the bulk to make up for it, not having to worry about these Common weaknesses a steel typing would give it is what makes it so great.

 

[termi]

I believe the "What if Pokemon X did/didn't have this/that"-discussion belongs to this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/theorymon-session.3484688/

I personally agree with moving Tyranitar up to S-rank. While sand doesn't really benefit much in OU that's not Tyranitar or Stoutland, it does provide you with an easy way to disrupt other weather conditions. It's more of an anti-weather, and while hail kinda works like that too, Tyranitar is a good mon that abuses its own weather with success, whereas Abomasnow is dreadful (we're talking about a Pokemon that has no base stats higher than 92 and a whopping total of 7 weaknesses that can easily be exploited by anything that is faster (which is a lot)). Tyranitar, meanwhile, has a titanic attack stat, a very usable special attack stat, a great movepool (including Stealth Rock) and a titanic bulk in sand. His typing is a bit of a letdown, defensively, but he has a ton of utility and is simply a better Pokemon than Politoed will ever be when disregarding the utility of their respective weathers. There's just not much in the tier that can take even supereffective hits as well as Tyranitar and retaliate with brutal force. 4X Fighting weakness is a bummer, but if you let your Tyranitar stay in on a Breloom/Conkeldurr/Terrakion/Keldeo you might want to wonder what the hell you're even doing.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I believe the "What if Pokemon X did/didn't have this/that"-discussion belongs to this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/theorymon-session.3484688/

I personally agree with moving Tyranitar up to S-rank. While sand doesn't really benefit much in OU that's not Tyranitar or Stoutland, it does provide you with an easy way to disrupt other weather conditions. It's more of an anti-weather, and while hail kinda works like that too, Tyranitar is a good mon that abuses its own weather with success, whereas Abomasnow is dreadful (we're talking about a Pokemon that has no base stats higher than 92 and a whopping total of 7 weaknesses that can easily be exploited by anything that is faster (which is a lot)). Tyranitar, meanwhile, has a titanic attack stat, a very usable special attack stat, a great movepool (including Stealth Rock) and a titanic bulk in sand. His typing is a bit of a letdown, defensively, but he has a ton of utility and is simply a better Pokemon than Politoed will ever be when disregarding the utility of their respective weathers. There's just not much in the tier that can take even supereffective hits as well as Tyranitar and retaliate with brutal force. 4X Fighting weakness is a bummer, but if you let your Tyranitar stay in on a Breloom/Conkeldurr/Terrakion/Keldeo you might want to wonder what the hell you're even doing.

If we're making Tyranitar S rank because it checks other weathers so well, surely we need to make Ninetales S rank as well? I dont agree with this tbh. I never thought Hetran was S rank material in the Genesect era just because it countered it so well.

 

[termi]

If we're making Tyranitar S rank because it checks other weathers so well, surely we need to make Ninetales S rank as well? I dont agree with this tbh. I never thought Hetran was S rank material in the Genesect era just because it countered it so well.

But Tyranitar checks other weathers while still being, y'know, really good, whereas Ninetales is mediocre and not very versatile. You can run a specially offensive set and a defensive set and that's it. Neither of them are even really good because Ninetales doesn't have the offensive presence to be a huge threat (if you bring your own weather inducer in there's a fat chance that Ninetales can barely damage it and has to switch out) and defensively it's alright, but fire typing is less than ideal for a defensive set (lol stealth rock weakness). Tyranitar can run a defensive set due to its titanic bulk (granted, rock/dark typing still sucks defensively, but Ttar's bulk stands tall above Ninetales'), support its team with SR or go for sheer power with a Band or a Scarf.

Tyranitar doesn't just counter weather, he is an amazing Pokemon in many regards, being able to deal with Psychic types with a Band-boosted Pursuit (also Ghosts, but they tend to burn him before switching so that's some risky business) and just giving his team a ton more than Ninetales ever could, despite the fact that sand carries little utility.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Tangrowth has insane physical bulk, it takes physical dragon attacks well enough. I'd argue not having a steel typing is what sets it apart from Ferrothorn because it doesn't need rain to beat things like ddnite, it can actually wall fighting types, etc. it has a resistance to earthquake which is actually a huge help. It might not have as many resistances, but it has the bulk to make up for it, not having to worry about these Common weaknesses a steel typing would give it is what makes it so great.

Is ice not a "Common" weakness?

I could see Tangrowth in C rank because it really does need a good amount of support to be effective. It needs a Special Wall of some sort to be paired with since its special defense is absolutely abysmal for a Defensive Pokemon. Plus it also needs some support in the form of a Rapid Spinner to make its Regenerator ability any useful.

I'd argue that any physical wall operates at it's best when paired with a special wall, and vice versa; there are few teams that don't opt to run a special wall, so I'd argue that this isn't necessarily a valid point to denote Tangrowth.

Additionally, Regenerator doesn't always need rapid spin support to be effective; it helps alleviate the pressure of hazards, especially if the opposing team is lacking spikes. While it appreciates spin support- as any wall in the game does- it's actually not as cramped by hazards as many Pokemon. It alleviates almost all of the damage it incurs by switching in to 3 layers spikes and stealth rock with regenerator, whereas Ferrothorn, whom we seem to inevitably use as the comparison for physically bulky grass types, would take over 25% of it's health. The only real difference in taking hazards well is Toxic Spikes, which are rare enough that I don't think it would warrant dropping Tangrowth a whole tier.

Anyway, what really differentiates Tangrowth, aside from sleep powder and lack of a four times weakness, as mentioned above, is the fact that it's set up fodder for less things; with HP Ice and Giga Drain, it can stop Sub Gyarados or Dragonite from setting up, something Which Ferrothorn can't always do (dragonite always gets sub up, Gyarados needs burn, but since it's partnered with Politoed so often, that's not a big deal). Ferrothorn relies overly much on leech seed and status to prevent set up, which often means it can't beat substitute sweepers.

Additionally, it should be noted that Tangrowth has other support options like knock off and aromatherapy to differentiate it. Knock off is especially interesting since it's one of the few viable users of knock off in the tier (the other being Tentacruel, who generally has better things to be doing with its moveslots).

However, Ferrothorn frankly counters so much more, so it's generally preferable, along with the obvious hazard support.

But all in all, I agree with B-