The difference is that HP Ice Breloom is a terrible gimmick that seriously hampers Breloom's usefulness to your team, while Garchomp's options are all very viable. No one can give you a concrete check to Garchomp if Garchomp has viable ways of beating it. Its not like chomp is becoming a weaker 'mon by using Fire Blast to wreck Skarmory. It uses Earthquake + Dragon STAB + whatever you want. Breloom wants Mach Punch + Bullet Seed + Spore + Stone Edge + Low Sweep + HP Ice? Its gotta pick what its gonna be walled by. Chomp doesn't have that problem at all.
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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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The difference is that HP Ice Breloom is a terrible gimmick that seriously hampers Breloom's usefulness to your team, while Garchomp's options are all very viable. No one can give you a concrete check to Garchomp if Garchomp has viable ways of beating it. Its not like chomp is becoming a weaker 'mon by using Fire Blast to wreck Skarmory. It uses Earthquake + Dragon STAB + whatever you want. Breloom wants Mach Punch + Bullet Seed + Spore + Stone Edge + Low Sweep + HP Ice? Its gotta pick what its gonna be walled by. Chomp doesn't have that problem at all.
This is BW2, Garchomp is too slow to pull of a SD LO sweep. The faster stuff = half of your opponent's team, sometimes even more.
Landorus is S-Rank. If he can be there, chomp should be too.
Garchomp can hit hard from both attacking stats, has Rock Polish, and has access to U-turn?
The difference between an Landorus sweep and a Garchomp sweep is the fact that garchomp needs to boost its offenses and can still be revenge killed very easily. However, Landorus has so much more raw power where it needs it that it must only set up a rock polish to outspeed everything that's not ice shard. Garchomp just doesn't have a specific niche, anything that it wants to do is usually done better by most other dragons. Haxorus and Kyurem-B for power, Salamence for scarfing, Dragonite for boosting. It's just not substantially better than any of the other dragons at most of the stuff they do.
Same rank /=/ being identical. You know thats not what i am talking about so dont try to make it look like it is.
Garchomp doesnt NEED to do anything. What makes it good is its versatility. Choiced Band, Choice Scarf, Swords Dance, Rocks + Swords Dance, Bulky, Sub Swords Dance. It also can run Yache or Haban to take care of revenge killers. Thats also why Landorus is a great threat. Its not there cause it has sand force and rock polish. Its there cause its versatility allows it to go both physical or special making it hard to counter until you find out what set its running. And no, Garchomp inst outclassed by anything. The amount of sets it can run are only comparable to Dragonite which is a VERY different dragon.
Terrakion, Starmie, Scarfer. That's 3 not including additional scarfers, priority users, and checks that will guarantee Chomp is phazed out.
You made the comparison, as if Landorus being in S-Tier has anything to do with Garchomp at all. Landorus is S-Tier because it can hit you from both ends hard, can boost from both ends or it's speed to outpace everything in OU, and can maintain momentum with U-Turn making it an amazing Choice user. Chomp doesn't have these qualities, so there is no reason to compare the 2.
No, Landorus is definitely in S thanks to Sand Force, Sheer Force, and especially Rock Polish. In fact, this is exactly why Garchomp should not be S. Landorus hits MUCH harder basically for free, and he has a way to boost his speed, something that Garchomp does not have.
Garchomp not having a way to boost his speed outside Choice Scarf and Salac Berry are IMMENSELY important to the way he plays. Salamence and Dragonite are better end-game sweepers almost entirely because they have Dragon Dance to help their speed. After two boosts, both of them are basically only stopped by Ice Shard and Scizor's Bullet Punch. Garchomp has no way of doing this. Yes, he has Swords Dance, and he outclasses Haxorus in some ways because base 102 Speed IS good, but I think most of you are failing to comprehend just how crippling that lack of speed-boosting move is to him sweeping.
Garchomp not having a way to boost his speed outside Choice Scarf and Salac Berry are IMMENSELY important to the way he plays. Salamence and Dragonite are better end-game sweepers almost entirely because they have Dragon Dance to help their speed. After two boosts, both of them are basically only stopped by Ice Shard and Scizor's Bullet Punch. Garchomp has no way of doing this. Yes, he has Swords Dance, and he outclasses Haxorus in some ways because base 102 Speed IS good, but I think most of you are failing to comprehend just how crippling that lack of speed-boosting move is to him sweeping.
Part of what makes Garchomp so difficult to deal with is the variety in his sets. Sure, he's not like Landorus who can smash things hard right from the get-go by virtue of his abilities and boost his speed via Rock Polish, but Garchomp can easily slap on a move or item and instantly remove a counter/check from the list. Skarmory? Fire Blast off a workable base 80 Sp.Atk. Air Balloon Heatran? Substitute. Mamoswine or bulky Water troubles? Yache Berry. That base 102 base speed is also enough to set him apart from other Dragons, as all but Lati@s either are outsped or at best tie with Volcarona, Thundurus-T, Landorus-I, Salamence, Celebi and Jirachi. Unlike Lati@s, he isn't boned the minute a Tyranitar or Scizor switches in, making him harder to get rid of, and can even utilize Rough Skin and land some chip damage on foes to ensure certain KOes.
Yes he is there cause of its versatility. My comparison is that Garchomp is also versatile. Of course in a DIFFERENT way.
You talk like if Garchomp needed Life Orb.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 255-300 (72.03 - 84.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 250-295 (67.75 - 79.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
When you use yache berry this kinda of thing happens.
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 234-276 (65.36 - 77.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 257-304 (71.78 - 84.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 179-213 (50 - 59.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
When you use Yachey Berry the number of Pokemon that can revenge kill you drops. Life Orb is just icing in the cake to guarantee the OHKO on Landorus-T.
This gives Garchomp the freedom to choose whatever item it wants. Also come on, youre actually saying Skarmory is some kind of rain staple? I dont know about you but i usually see that thing in weatherless or sand.
I'm sorry but this just isn't true. What KO's is Garchomp missing out on by not having a Life Orb at +2? At +2, even without a Life Orb, Garchomp 2HKO's the entire OU tier after rocks. The only thing that can survive more than two hits is Physically Defensive Skarmory in the Rain, and Bronzong. Both of these are easily fixed by having sun up instead. And I would rather get the KO on Starmie or Keldeo expecting to revenge than an increased possibility of getting the KO on Skarmory in the rain. Increasing the survivability of Garchomp seems more important, in my opinion.
Yeah people need to understand that Landorus is a whole lot different then Chomp. Of course, probably the biggest reason why Landorus is S-Rank is because of his abilities. Sand Force makes him a monster revenge killer in Sand, and with the combination of Earthquake and Stone Edge, he can pretty much maul half the tier. He also has access to U-Turn, and has a much more usable special attack then Chomp which allows his physical sets to run HP Ice. Then of course, he has Sheer Force. Sheer Force combined with Life Orb is pretty much a free +1 SpA boost, which immediately makes him a threat as soon as he's sent out into battle. Garchomp however, requires at least one free turn of set up, possibly two if you count Substitute. Still, Garchomp's 102 speed leaves him open to common Choice Scarfers, Mamoswine, and Rain Teams. He has to hide behind a Sub in order to survive. Landorus however, has access to Rock Polish, which now gives him boosts equivalent to Agility and +1 SpA. This makes Landorus an instant threat just with one turn of set up, and with near perfect coverage Landorus only needs a few Pokemon out of the way before it can wreck havoc upon teams. Chomp sometimes has to sacrifice both its item and two move slots in order to help it properly set up.
I feel that Landorus is in S-Rank due to his instant power, better boosting move (that fits his stats), and has two amazing abilities that makes him powerful on both spectrum's of attacking, making him very unpredictable and dangerous. Chomp is very good, but not S-Rank. I feel he's mid-high A-Rank though.
I feel that Landorus is in S-Rank due to his instant power, better boosting move (that fits his stats), and has two amazing abilities that makes him powerful on both spectrum's of attacking, making him very unpredictable and dangerous. Chomp is very good, but not S-Rank. I feel he's mid-high A-Rank though.
Yache Chomp only misses a few 2HKOs that LO Chomp would get.
Quagsire
Skarmory
Cresselia
Bulky Gyarados
Lando-T
OHKOs
Sp Def Rotom W
Offensive Dragonite through Multiscale
Scarf Lando-T
The rest of the stuff I didn't really feel were worth mentioning (Milotic). Point is, Garchomp really doesn't need LOs power boost if it can get off the Swords Dance, so long as you've hit Skarmory once or twice throughout the match. The ability to tank an Ice attack that would otherwise slaughter you, though, is really really good, and can save your ass in a tight spot.
Quagsire
Skarmory
Cresselia
Bulky Gyarados
Lando-T
OHKOs
Sp Def Rotom W
Offensive Dragonite through Multiscale
Scarf Lando-T
The rest of the stuff I didn't really feel were worth mentioning (Milotic). Point is, Garchomp really doesn't need LOs power boost if it can get off the Swords Dance, so long as you've hit Skarmory once or twice throughout the match. The ability to tank an Ice attack that would otherwise slaughter you, though, is really really good, and can save your ass in a tight spot.
The issue with chomp is that it MUST get off that swords dance turn 1 if it wants to do anything. Please, don't even talk about scarfchomp doing anything. At any rate, chomp can muscle through and beat a lot of defensive checks, but the same can't be said for offensive ones, even with a yache. It isn't exactly about covering the weaknesses, because chomp will also have trouble taking nukes of attacks from keldeo or terrakion or latias or latios. Garchomp is just too slow to pull off a very effective sweep with all the non-scarfed revenge killers that can just put huge dents in it. Every offensive team has at least one, usually two of these, while defensive teams will have at least two checks to garchomp because its checked by things that check a lot of other pokemon.
It's very good, but its just not on the level of "perfect" at S-rank
It's very good, but its just not on the level of "perfect" at S-rank
Garchomp doesn't even need SD to be threatening guys. A simple set with Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast, D-Tail and LO has no counters in OU, and is amazing at forcing switches and racking up entry hazards damage. Please no mention of Ice Shard as Terrakion is weak to much more priority users and look where he is. Yeah Terrakion has a better STAB combo and a better Speed tier, but Garchomp is not far behind, with near flawless STAB coverage, amazing bulk, SD, and the ability to beat every one of its coutners.
SD + Yache Berry or LO Chomp, LO + 4 Attack Chomp, and even SubSD Salac Chomp are all lethal sets that can easily sweep through teams or wallbreak. I would really like to ask the people that say Garchomp isn't a good sweeper, have you ever used it in a Dual Screen HO team? Because if you haven't it all makes sense. Excluding LO Lati@s and Specs Latios, nothing else can revenge kill it with Dual Screens up, allowing it to easily take the Scarfer of the opponent out. Then it can maybe get a second kill or seriously damage something, and then your other sweepers can sweep without fearing a revenge kill. The choice sets are not the best around, but they are still good enough, and add to Garchomp's versatility.
So all in all, Garchomp is versatile, powerful, bulky, fast (not very fast but still fast enough to do its job) and has few flaws, that are easy to cover.
I also want to clear a misconception. Every suspect will come out from the S-Rank, true. But the opposite isn't always true. Not every Pokemon in the S-Rank has to be a suspect, as Terrakion and Landorus show us.
Garchomp for S Rank pls!
SD + Yache Berry or LO Chomp, LO + 4 Attack Chomp, and even SubSD Salac Chomp are all lethal sets that can easily sweep through teams or wallbreak. I would really like to ask the people that say Garchomp isn't a good sweeper, have you ever used it in a Dual Screen HO team? Because if you haven't it all makes sense. Excluding LO Lati@s and Specs Latios, nothing else can revenge kill it with Dual Screens up, allowing it to easily take the Scarfer of the opponent out. Then it can maybe get a second kill or seriously damage something, and then your other sweepers can sweep without fearing a revenge kill. The choice sets are not the best around, but they are still good enough, and add to Garchomp's versatility.
So all in all, Garchomp is versatile, powerful, bulky, fast (not very fast but still fast enough to do its job) and has few flaws, that are easy to cover.
I also want to clear a misconception. Every suspect will come out from the S-Rank, true. But the opposite isn't always true. Not every Pokemon in the S-Rank has to be a suspect, as Terrakion and Landorus show us.
Garchomp for S Rank pls!
Balloon Heatran gets his Balloon broken with D-Tail and can't switch in again. Intimidate Gyarados gets 2HKOed by Outrage after SR, and if it is defensive gets fucked up by D-Tail + SR, Vaporeon is 2HKOed by EQ. The only good check out of those you mentioned is Landorus-T.
I never said that Garchomp has no checks, but to see people claim that it is easy to counter is ridiculous, so i simply mentioned one set without counters (OU counters at least).
You can try and mention as many checks as you want, but this won't change the fact that 4 attacks Garchomp is deadly in spike stacking offense and that SD Garchomps is one of the most deadly Pokemon behind screens.
4 attacks LO garchomp is a great way to deal out damage and force a ton of switches, but it's just not enough to push garchomp into S-rank in my opinion. Of course we will disagree and nothing's going to change that, but without a swords dance boost the number of pokemon that can take garchomp on jumps like crazy. Almost nothing defensive that is relevant will be ohkoed and while they're not exactly going to OHKO garchomp back every defensive team carries at least one ice move. Just taking a look at some of the defensive calculations from last page, without that swords dance boost Hippowdon, Landorus, Skarmory, even Starmie can take on Garchomp.
That's not to say that 4 attack with D-tail isn't a bad set, in fact I would hesistate to say that's its best set because its a niche unique to garchomp. But the bottom line is that without SD garchomp's just not powerful enough to demolish teams on his own and with it he's too slow in this meta to sweep.
Also talking about it under screens support is a terrible argument; it's not like anything under dual screens is going to be revenge killed successfully by anything. Dual screens is far too much support to be considered normal conditions.
That's not to say that 4 attack with D-tail isn't a bad set, in fact I would hesistate to say that's its best set because its a niche unique to garchomp. But the bottom line is that without SD garchomp's just not powerful enough to demolish teams on his own and with it he's too slow in this meta to sweep.
Also talking about it under screens support is a terrible argument; it's not like anything under dual screens is going to be revenge killed successfully by anything. Dual screens is far too much support to be considered normal conditions.
I would like to add rotom-h to the C-Rank. Rotom-H's defensive typing allows it to check dangerous threats like scizor, venusaur, ferrothorn and magnezone, while its base 105 special attack allows it to deal respectable damage. The main reason why it shouldn't be in a higher rank is that it is vulnerable to rain, tyranitar and most dragon types, but C-Rank is a completely reasonable rank.
I'm going to second Rotom-H for C-Rank. It lacks the fantastic typing as Rotom-W, and has a Stealth Rock weakness, but it can do a lot of the same things Rotom-W can while being a viable Fire type and one of the few pokemon to resist BoltBeam. I'd say C-Rank is fine.
This is false. 102 base speed is still phenomenal in Gen 5. I think you're looking at speed the wrong way; while 108 speed (which the S-Ranked Terrakion and Keldeo have) may look a ton better than 102, unboosted the only thing it misses out on in OU that 108 gets is the speed tie with the 108s themselves.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Ok, what exactly makes Gyarados, Gengar, Jellicent, Lucario, Tentacruel and Gliscor B tier?
Gyarados: Offensive DD Moxie is easily one of the most frightening sweepers in the tier specially in rain. Solid bulk and the ability to easily setup on stuff like Scizor plus excelente coverage with that coveted water stab makes it hard to deal with it.
Gengar: SubDisable nuff said. Stuff like Terrakion and Conkeldurr fold at the sigh of this set. Unresisted coverage with only 2 moves coming out of 130 sp atk is nothing to scoff at. The ability to wall and sometimes beat blissey and chansey depending on the moves you choose is also a great selling point that most people overlook.
Jellicent: This thing walls Keldeo. It also stops bulkytoed , ferrothorn, forretress and other defensive mons cold with taunt and will-o-wisp. It can easily take neutral or resisted hits with its awesome defenses and great typing + ability and shutdown most physical atkers with will-o-wisp. It can even use a specs set with waterspout to surprise its counters.
Lucario: Setup a Swords Dance and sweep. This thing cleans like a boss. Just get stealth rocks up and watch as stuff falls to either Close Combat or Extremespeed. That awesome typing makes up for its defenses. Being able to switch in band ttar and band terrakion stone edge AND setup in their faces is not something many pokemons can brag about. Ice Punch shut downs Gliscor shenanigans.
Tentacruel: This thing single-handlely gives rain teams headaches and can be used to great effect in a rain team. Excellent typing, rain dish, acces to rapid spin and toxic spikes and an excelent sp def allows it to take on a variety of threats, notably the feared choice scarf/specs keldeo, while supporting its team at the same time.
Gliscor: Put. this thing. on sand. Toxic switch ins and start alternating between sub and protect. Earthquake those steels. Seriously its a non-brainer. It can easily stall anything that is slower than it and inst immune to poison. Its also one of the few pokemons that can claim to switch in any move from terrakion.
I'd like a A rank at best.
Ok, what exactly makes Gyarados, Gengar, Jellicent, Lucario, Tentacruel and Gliscor B tier?
Gyarados: Offensive DD Moxie is easily one of the most frightening sweepers in the tier specially in rain. Solid bulk and the ability to easily setup on stuff like Scizor plus excelente coverage with that coveted water stab makes it hard to deal with it.
Gengar: SubDisable nuff said. Stuff like Terrakion and Conkeldurr fold at the sigh of this set. Unresisted coverage with only 2 moves coming out of 130 sp atk is nothing to scoff at. The ability to wall and sometimes beat blissey and chansey depending on the moves you choose is also a great selling point that most people overlook.
Jellicent: This thing walls Keldeo. It also stops bulkytoed , ferrothorn, forretress and other defensive mons cold with taunt and will-o-wisp. It can easily take neutral or resisted hits with its awesome defenses and great typing + ability and shutdown most physical atkers with will-o-wisp. It can even use a specs set with waterspout to surprise its counters.
Lucario: Setup a Swords Dance and sweep. This thing cleans like a boss. Just get stealth rocks up and watch as stuff falls to either Close Combat or Extremespeed. That awesome typing makes up for its defenses. Being able to switch in band ttar and band terrakion stone edge AND setup in their faces is not something many pokemons can brag about. Ice Punch shut downs Gliscor shenanigans.
Tentacruel: This thing single-handlely gives rain teams headaches and can be used to great effect in a rain team. Excellent typing, rain dish, acces to rapid spin and toxic spikes and an excelent sp def allows it to take on a variety of threats, notably the feared choice scarf/specs keldeo, while supporting its team at the same time.
Gliscor: Put. this thing. on sand. Toxic switch ins and start alternating between sub and protect. Earthquake those steels. Seriously its a non-brainer. It can easily stall anything that is slower than it and inst immune to poison. Its also one of the few pokemons that can claim to switch in any move from terrakion.
I'd like a A rank at best.
Seconding this. Rotom-H has fantastic offensive and defensive typing, and can wall a good portion of the meta game, while hitting a good portion of it for super effective damage as well. Although Rain weakens his potential just like every other Fire type in the meta, there's more to Rotom-H then just spamming Overheat. He can fill almost the exact same role as Rotom-W as a Specially Defensive wall, and has great support moves such as Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, and Trick. His Electric typing sort of helps nullify his other STAB when facing a Rain team, as he can still pose a threat against common Rain teammates such as Gyarados, Tentacruel, and even Keldeo when he's Scarfed. Rotom-H is the same exact Pokemon as Rotom-W, but with different typing. The biggest difference is Rotom-H's Stealth Rocks weakness, which hinders its walling capabilities. Still, they fill different roles in teams, and both are a great counter to their respectable weather typing. Although Rotom-W is a much better fit in this meta, Rotom-H can patch up certain holes in teams that maybe Rotom-W can't because of its different typing. Rotom-H is definitely a good Pokemon, and deserves more usage. I feel like it's a solid C-Rank.
Nominating Donphan for D-rank.
The sole reason Donphan exists is to rapid spin, and more than half of the time, it fails at doing the only job it's designated for because of the sheer amount of offensive attacks it cannot take. Not only that, but it fails to spin-block on every viable ghost type in OU. Sub-disable Gengar beats Head Smash Variants. Jellicent can either taunt on an incoming Foresight or cripple it with will-o-wisp. Sableye, just like Jellicent, has no difficulty stopping Donphan. To make matters worse, Donphan functions sorely as a support Pokemon that lacks reliable recovery. Meaning in the course of a drawn out match, it will be worn down by the very hazards it's supposed to get rid of. Minus Rapid spin, as a support Pokemon, it's outclassed 100% by Hippowdon. Hippowdon not only has reliable recovery, but can actually take a hit on the special side and retaliate appropriately. As for offensive sets, they're outclassed by Landorus(T)due to their superior stats and abilities. Above all else, there really is not much reason to use Donphan, as Xatu, and hell, even Sandslash can function as a better (pseudo)rapid spinner than Donphan due to its ability to be useful when against an opposing sand team. It's niche on sun teams has long overstayed its welcome. The rising omnipotence of rain doesn't help its cause either. It needs to go to D-rank and drop to UU, where it belongs.
Agreed. I'm sorry, but Donphan is terrible in this meta game. It has no reliable means of recovery, mediocre special defense, terrible speed, terrible defensive typing, and even common physical attackers such as CB Terrakion can 2HKO it after Stealth Rocks. The only useful typing that Donphan resists is Rock types, which other physical walls like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Gliscor can take no problem. As you said, unlike Starmie or even Forretress Donphan has no way of really crippling or doing any significant damage to spin blockers. He's a sitting duck in this rain infested meta game, and even Sun teams would rather have Dugtrio on their team then the fat elephant that is Donphan. Also, don't even mention Ice Shard. It can't even 2HKO Garchomp or Landorus.
Funny thing is, Donphan wouldn't even fit well in UU either. There are more spin blockers used in UU, all of them which can take on Donphan no problem. Cofagrigus can set up CM all day on Donphan's pitiful Earthquakes. Frosslass can OHKO him after Stealth Rocks with one of her Ice moves. Dusclops can burn him and proceed to Curse stall. Chandelure can pretty much OHKO with any of it's STAB moves and Energy Ball. Also, there are a ton of bulky water types like Empoleon, Milotic, and Suicune who can really mess up Donphan, all who even out speed him too.
Donphan is just...meh. Actually, meh is an understatement. I don't even know why people use Donphan over other spinners. He's not good at all. D-Rank is good.
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