Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[masterful]

That doesn't mean that all suspects are immediately S tier, just that the pokes in S tier are most likely to become suspects. It's not a rule, just an indicator.

 

[flea]

Would definitely propose moving Haxorus up to B-Tier. Look at PK Gaming's "Enter the Dragon" RMT. That kind of team still works, folks! Banded Haxorus has one safe switch in, Skarmory, a pokemon that's pretty anemic in its usage right now due to the prevalence of rain, and is completely eliminated by Magnezone. It also has a couple notable advantages over Kyurem-B, such as neutrality to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch as well as access to amazing boosting moves like Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. It's not terribly difficult to revenge kill, but that's not its role, its niche is to wallbreak and make way for another Dragon to come in lategame and sweep. And in that role, it is literally second to none. Even bulky Steel types can be 2HKO'd after some prior damage. Throw this thing in your lead spot and watch it wreak havoc. I'd move it up to B tier no question.

 

[Takion]

Would definitely propose moving Haxorus up to B-Tier. Look at PK Gaming's "Enter the Dragon" RMT. That kind of team still works, folks! Banded Haxorus has one safe switch in, Skarmory, a pokemon that's pretty anemic in its usage right now due to the prevalence of rain, and is completely eliminated by Magnezone. It also has a couple notable advantages over Kyurem-B, such as neutrality to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch as well as access to amazing boosting moves like Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. It's not terribly difficult to revenge kill, but that's not its role, its niche is to wallbreak and make way for another Dragon to come in lategame and sweep. And in that role, it is literally second to none. Even bulky Steel types can be 2HKO'd after some prior damage. Throw this thing in your lead spot and watch it wreak havoc. I'd move it up to B tier no question.

I do have to second this as Haxorus has unique versatility, and if set up correctly can devastate teams.

On a side note...
Alright...I dont want to bring up a heated debate but has anyone felt that Arcanine has a small niche in the OU? I've been testing an Agility build which would allow him to outspeed Keldeo, Tornadus and hit them hard with a Wild Charge. I understand that its typing and base speed are weaknesses but with its power it can hurt teams not prepared for it.

Thoughts, opinions on whether it should be a D rank pokemon?

 

[BurningMan]

Would definitely propose moving Haxorus up to B-Tier. Look at PK Gaming's "Enter the Dragon" RMT. That kind of team still works, folks! Banded Haxorus has one safe switch in, Skarmory, a pokemon that's pretty anemic in its usage right now due to the prevalence of rain, and is completely eliminated by Magnezone. It also has a couple notable advantages over Kyurem-B, such as neutrality to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch as well as access to amazing boosting moves like Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. It's not terribly difficult to revenge kill, but that's not its role, its niche is to wallbreak and make way for another Dragon to come in lategame and sweep. And in that role, it is literally second to none. Even bulky Steel types can be 2HKO'd after some prior damage. Throw this thing in your lead spot and watch it wreak havoc. I'd move it up to B tier no question.

As a choice bander Haxorus is kinda outclassed by Kyurem-B. While Kyurem-B might have some more weaknesses it got a lot more bulk and since CB Dragons usually tend to be kamikaze wallbreakers the weakness to priority isn't that bad since almost every other offensive Pokemon outspeeds both of them anyway. Most of the time both will nuke one Pokemon of the of the opposing team with outrage and die next turn to a revenge killer anyway.

Roserade is C-Tier at best it is usually outclassed by Celebie, Ferrothorn and Amonguss and the only reason i would ever use it was if i would desperatly need a Grass type with spikes thats not weak to fighting. Its main drawback is it's lackluster defense wich makes it really easy to force it out. It has great SpA but Grass sucks as an offensive type especially with middeling speed, poor offensive movepool and no way to boost up (well it gets growth but that sucks outside of sun and sun already has the completly superior Venusaur). It got a niche but it's not a big one so C-Tier fits it imo.

 

[Pocket]

Kyurem-B has better special bulk, but Haxorus more often than not survives physical hits better than Kyurem-B, thanks to its lack of weakness to Fighting, Rock, and Steel-type moves. Kyurem-B is also ranked A, so I find it perfectly justified for Haxorus to rank B.

 

[BurningMan]

Kyurem-B has better special bulk, but Haxorus more often than not survives physical hits better than Kyurem-B, thanks to its lack of weakness to Fighting, Rock, and Steel-type moves. Kyurem-B is also ranked A, so I find it perfectly justified for Haxorus to rank B.

Mmh yeah i just reread the definition of B-Tier and think it actually fits quite well, most sets are outclassed by other Dragons but it can actually run a lot of different sets effectively so it kinda works well on the ever popular DragMag teams.

 

[LilOu]

NOMINATING DRAGONITE TO S RANK

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").

Dragonite has massive physical attack and once he get a dragon dance he can proceed to sweep with little help. He only need 1 or 2 turns to set up and hit very hard with Outrage or Fire Punch for steel types. Dnite doesnt need the help of weather to make his job. The access to extreme speed is really nice dealing huge damage to scarf pokes before you get the +2 speed. Talking about his counters: Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory can be took down with fire punch (Except Skarmory which is easily destroyed by teammates like magnezone or rotom w). Landorus-T and gliscor can be crippled by ice punch depending on your needs. The use of lum berry really helps him with the status and with the confusion once you finish using outrage. Moreover, he has access to multiscale, an awesome ability that grants that you have a free and safe dragon dance if your multiscale is not broken (thanks god Genesect is gone cause he didnt mind the multiscale).

Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.

Dragonite has A LOT of sets that can be performed ezly increasing his unpredictability.

-Dragon Dance and Choice Band. These are the common sets and no one doubts his power.

-Substitute + Dragon Dance. This set works really nice in stall teams and, if your opponent is not smart, he will have a bad time dealing with this. The main purpose of the set is to set a sub, roost of damage, set dragon dance and repeat the progress until you get sufficient boosts to sweep.

-Parashuffler. Similar to the one before. Take an attack that he will resist cause of his ability, then paralyze, then sub, wait for a "the pokemon is paralyzed, it cant move" and roost. Then time to dragon tail stuff and repeat the same progress. Again, thanks that genesect is gone he has another opportunity to work.

-Tank (Rain). "While many Dragonite sets aim to break holes, this set aims to deal with many common threats to rain teams thanks to its numerous resistances and the all-important Multiscale. Thanks to being made for rain, it has the ability to hit back hard as well, which is a key advantage over the Multiscale shuffler set. Out of every single set contained in this analysis, this set is the best abuser of Multiscale, taking advantage of Roost to stall out even super effective attacks from some of the most monstrous attackers in existence. Dragon Tail is able to be used at key times if Multiscale is intact, as well as STAB Hurricane and perfectly-accurate-in-rain Thunder to hit back hard." Took from Smogon.


What do you think about Dragonite in S Rank?

 

[nygerman]

The problem with azelf is that it's only really good set in that I would consider for a team in either of the Stealth Rock sets, is outclassed partially by other "suicide" leads. Mew boasts better bulk to get up rocks easier, and can still use explosion like azelf with normal gem explosion having a pretty solid power output coming from mew. Deoxy-D is the real killer, access to spikes with better bulk and recovery pretty much outclasses azelf when it comes to leading for the purpose of setting up hazards. Azelf may have uses besides from setting up those hazards, but most of the time you will be exploding after set up, with little difference in execution to mew and accomplishing less in the long run than deo-d. You can bring up the offensive sets, but I haven't even seen them once yet on showdown, and when I saw them on PO I found them pretty underwhelming and easily dealt with. Azelf is probaly a C rank as it faces very stiff competition for the suicide lead slot, with imo mew being better for that sort of role. Also the CB set being like terrak doesn't make sense, Terrak is throwing around amazing high powered STAB's off his already impessive Attack, making it nearly impossible to switch into. Azelf has a pretty poor STAB and pretty much U-turn being the only move terrakion is slightly envious of. I can support Azelf for C rank but idk if it should be any higher.

Also chou I know kingdra is pretty good in the current meta as I was using both mixed and special rain dance sets on my last few teams, but you can't forget that most players who need ferrothorn to keep kingdra in check will save it so it can do that job. Assuming Ferrothorn has LO it will be fairly easy to wear down if you have prio moves with hazards up, not to mention afore mentioned ferrothorn forces it out for a net loss of 22% of HP every time it switches into SR + Attacks, so although ferro will be getting worn down, kingdra will also be taking damage in the process. Or are you running specs? Anyways I know kingdra is good ATM I just can't see it being A tier.
(I legitmatly want to know what kingdra set this is it seems pretty good)

Suicide leads are no longer common, because you can't afford to waste a pokemon anymore.

 

[BurningMan]

Suicide leads are no longer common, because you can't afford to waste a pokemon anymore.

yeah thats why deo-d is so bad...

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

No, Roserade is not A rank at all. Roserade has one giagantic crippling flaw over her fellow grass type bretheren: her defense makes Blissey look like a physical wall. To put this into perspective, a pursuit from choice scarf tyranitar does slightly more damage to Roserade than Celebi, pursuit is super effective on Celebi, Celebi is literally twice as physically bulky. Those means that Roserade can't do anything that Celebi does outside of taking scalds and volt switches, Roserade can't take a hit from close combat, Roserade can't take an earthquake, and most importantly Roserade literally takes Breloom twice as worse. Because Roserade has to pump so much into defense just to not be eaten alive by pursuit, its special investment is lost and its a serious bit less specially bulky than Celebi as well. So defensive wise Roserade is literally eclipsed by Celebi in every way.

I am not totally disowning Roserade though, its ability to absorb toxic spikes and use spikes is indeed a niche. Celebi and Amoonguss are more often than not though much better pokemon for the job. B or C rank should do, I am more pushing for C.

I am ok with Arcanine in D rank, it has its merits, though be is small.

 

[LilOu]

yeah thats why deo-d is so bad...

I dont think so, in a playstyle like HO you MUST set up hazards until dead (you can call it suicide lead if you want) but azelf is different in so many ways from Deo-d. I think that nygerman was refering to non-HO playstyle where you cant lose a pokemon just to set up rocks (there are another ways to set up rocks without sacking something)

 

[Gary]

Agreeing with Gary2346http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4505087&postcount=1003 about Mienshao - this Pokemon kicks butt in OU. It particularly makes a great Scarfer, checking Garchomp, Salamence, and Volcarona on top of Haxorus, Dragonite, and Gyarados. In addition, Reckless-boosted HJK provides it nuking power quite rare on fast Scarfers, allowing it to sweep late-game with surprising efficiency. Even Fighting resists, such as Dragonite and Landorus-I, find themselves in a 2HKO range after SR. U-turn is nice to pivot to a more suitable teamate when Mienshao is not ready for its HJK spree.

The one major flaw in Mineshao is its paper-thin bulk, unlike some bulkier scarfers like Landorus-I or even Salamence. However, its nuke power combined with its great Speed even for BW2, SR resistance, and access to U-turn makes for a solid Scarfer choice in OU. You guys should give it a spin! Most certainly a solid C-Tier, as Gary2346 requests!

Finally someone who at least responds to my request. Thanks Pocket! Don't forget about Mienshao's amazing Regenerator ability, which I honestly have found more success with because it increases his overall longevity, and takes full advantage of U-Turn. However, I would use Reckless over Regenerator ONLY if I have a spinner on my team. Without a spinner however, Mienshao suffers terribly from Spikes, making it just that much easier to take down, whereas Regenerator renders Spikes almost completely useless if Mienshao switches out.

 

[Frog]

I will not elaborate now but I will if necessary.
Feraligatr for C.
Kyurem-B to B.
Donphan to B.
Magneton for D.
Azumarill for C.
Roserade for C.
Shiftry for D.
Sawsbuck for C. (Way better than lilligant lol)
Jumpluff for D.
Blastoise for D.
Crawdaunt for D.
Jynx for D.
Venomoth for D.
Qwilfish for D.
Tornadus-T to A.
Deoxys-D to A.
Chandelure to C.
Garchomp to B.
Conkeldurr to B.
Heracross to C.

I understand explanations are needed and they will come... Eventually.

 

[Sacaen]

Donphan to B.

Donphan's only unique niche as a spinner is that he's the only one that can Spin and Roar and set SR. Otherwise he's a pretty bad spinner due to his slow speed, lack of recovery outside leftovers, vulnerability to spikes and Tox spikes, and very exploitable low special defense (most spin blockers will hit him from the special side forcing him out).

He fits well with other C-tier pokemon.

Tornadus-T to A.
Deoxys-D to A.

I understand explanations are needed and they will come... Eventually.

I'd really like to hear your explanation behind these, as Torn-T and Deo-D are some of the best in OU. Take them out of S-Rank and you may as well eliminate S-Rank all together.

And Chomp, while not seen as much as predicted when he was first dropped down from ubers with the sandveil, is still enough of a threat to maintain an A rank, especially with Gene gone. His SubSD, band, and scarf sets are still quite good.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I would like to nominate Tornadus (its Incarnate forme) for C rank.

Tornadus-I is still usable on OU, even though it seems to be outclassed by its Therian form. Although it's true that it is slower, frailer and lacks Regenerator, which are three fators that make Tornadus-I's survivability significantly lower than its Therian form, Tornadus-I still has some niches. A good set that Tornadus-I can pull off is AcroBat. Tornadus-I has Prankster and a higher Attack stat than Tornadus-T, two things that separate him from its Therian counterpart. I've recently used Tornadus-I as a Scarfer. This seems like an absurd, but Tornadus-I is actually makes a decent, if not great, user of Choice Scarf. Even without a boosting item, Hurricane is still very powerful and 2HKOes most things that doesn't resist it. Tornadus-I has the edge over Tornadus-T here, since Tornadus-T doesn't outspeed anything notable that Tornadus-I can't outspeed with a Scarf, and Tornadus-I packs much more of a punch thanks to its higher SpA. The only thing that Tornadus-I doesn't have is Regenerator, but hey, you can (and in fact, must) always use a spinner to mitigate that. Also, Tornadus-I can outspeed some dangerous threaths, like Choice Scarf Keldeo, Terrakion (with its Salac Berry activated), Modest Venusaur and Adamant Stoutland on sun and sandstorm, respectively, and even Dragonite and Cloyster with +2 speed under their belt.

Finally, Tornadus-I can still pull off the Hurricane set, though there aren't much reasons to use it over Tornadus-T. The only advantage that I can think of as of now is Prankster. As Tornadus-T lacks Prankster, Tornadus-I has the advantage of always being capable of setting up rain with Rain Dance if something happens with your Politoed, even if there is something that can outspeed and kill him. However, this is a minor advantage compared to Tornadus-T's Regenerator and higher speed.

So, although the green genie is constantly being overshadowed by its Therian form, it still has some perks over it. While many times you are better off using Tornadus-T, there are some things that Tornadus-I can do better, which is a reason to consider it. Those are the reasons why Tornadus-I should be considered C-Rank. It even perfectly fits on the description of "C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks." The crippling flaws on question are frailty, and the Pokemon in question that is typically superior to Tornadus-I is its Therian form, which is a better choice most of time.

 

[shrang]

Anyone else think Volcarona should be A rank? I know it has a "crippling weakness" (namely SR), but it is just so ridiculously good when SR is not around that I reckon it should be better than B rank. If SR was NOT around, I'd seriously consider it being S rank. Anyway, even with Stealth Rock, Volcarona is still a huge threat, since a 50% Volc is usually still as likely to sweep a team as a 100% one. Stealth Rock, in most of the cases, is just an inconvenience that "prevents it doing its job consistently" (A tier description) rather than a huge crippling flaw that knocks it down two tiers. The fact that it has a number of sets that can let it be used in any form of weather, as well as bulky and offensive threats just speaks volumes of this thing's versatility, IMO.

Move Volcarona to A rank

 

[Lavos]

Anyone else think Volcarona should be A rank? I know it has a "crippling weakness" (namely SR), but it is just so ridiculously good when SR is not around that I reckon it should be better than B rank. If SR was NOT around, I'd seriously consider it being S rank. Anyway, even with Stealth Rock, Volcarona is still a huge threat, since a 50% Volc is usually still as likely to sweep a team as a 100% one. Stealth Rock, in most of the cases, is just an inconvenience that "prevents it doing its job consistently" (A tier description) rather than a huge crippling flaw that knocks it down two tiers. The fact that it has a number of sets that can let it be used in any form of weather, as well as bulky and offensive threats just speaks volumes of this thing's versatility, IMO.

Move Volcarona to A rank

100% support for this.

 

[Takion]

Anyone else think Volcarona should be A rank? I know it has a "crippling weakness" (namely SR), but it is just so ridiculously good when SR is not around that I reckon it should be better than B rank. If SR was NOT around, I'd seriously consider it being S rank. Anyway, even with Stealth Rock, Volcarona is still a huge threat, since a 50% Volc is usually still as likely to sweep a team as a 100% one. Stealth Rock, in most of the cases, is just an inconvenience that "prevents it doing its job consistently" (A tier description) rather than a huge crippling flaw that knocks it down two tiers. The fact that it has a number of sets that can let it be used in any form of weather, as well as bulky and offensive threats just speaks volumes of this thing's versatility, IMO.

Move Volcarona to A rank

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Technically speaking Volca does fall into all of those...

However, let me present points for both For and against it.

Against:

Rain Teams are just to good, and with Keldeo on the loose Volca will have a difficult time

Needs a Rapid Spinner desperately...other wise its weakness to not only stealth rock but spikes make it easy for a kill

Very weak to statuses e.g. thunder wave and poison

For:
1x Quiver Dance could potentially spell GG. Kills Psychics hard.

It actually can be utilised in the rain...with the use of hurricane.

It allows to be a great counter to sun teams.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Throwing out my support too. What's really interesting at the moment is how few players currently prepare to deal with Volcarona. With a significant decline in the number of Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Landorus, players often find themselves unable to make a revenge kill without having to sacrifice multiple team members. With the sun up and Giga Drain, Scarf Keldeo, the premier revenge killer in BW2, will find itself struggling to take out a healthy Volcarona after it has a Quiver Dance boost.

To be honest, I wouldn't say Volcarona even requires that much support. Sure, you ideally need Rapid Spin support, but that's not too much of an ask, considering how a Rapid Spin user is a great asset for all teams anyway. The support required extends little further than that - it's not fully dependent on sun, and after a Quiver Dance it can do serious damage to even some of its checks. If the sun is up, a +1 LO Fire Blast will OHKO 56/0 Gyarados, 0/4 Dragonite and 0/0 Salamence after they take Stealth Rock damage.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Yea, I completely agree with Volcarona to A rank. In fact, I'm surprised that it wasn't there before.

Also, I'd like to bring up a previous point that wasn't addressed about moving Espeon to B rank. It's not only the best Baton Pass receiver in the entire game (Full BP wouldn't exist without Espeon), but it's also has niche roles on offensive teams. It's able to pass CM or set up fast Dual Screens, all while blocking hazards. Xatu is better at switching into hazard setters and Breloom, but Espeon has an offensive presence and access to Baton Pass, which makes it unique and effective enough to be Rank B. It's not worse than Xatu; it's just different.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

On Tornadus-N, its also a bit stronger than Tornadus-T. For example Tornadus-N has a pretty solid chance to 2HKO Chansey with superpower when Tornadus-T can't ever, even with rocks. Life orb is outclassed by Tornadus-T now but specs still has its merits. For example specs HP-ice garantees a 2HKO on spD Zapdos, a hurricane a 1HKO on Terrakion, it 1HKOs Gachomp 81% of the time (compared to 31% of the time for Tornadus-T), without rocks it 1HKOs Scizor 93% of the time as opposed to 43% for Tornadus-T. Overall there is about a 9% damage difference in power, so if you are running a quick hyper offensive rain team, it might be worth the toss up. You only lose out speeding Starmie, Alakazam, Dugtrio, and scarf-Tyranitar, so the speed loss isn't to much.

 

[LilOu]

Dragonite to S Rank

Hide

NOMINATING DRAGONITE TO S RANK



Dragonite has massive physical attack and once he get a dragon dance he can proceed to sweep with little help. He only need 1 or 2 turns to set up and hit very hard with Outrage or Fire Punch for steel types. Dnite doesnt need the help of weather to make his job. The access to extreme speed is really nice dealing huge damage to scarf pokes before you get the +2 speed. Talking about his counters: Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory can be took down with fire punch (Except Skarmory which is easily destroyed by teammates like magnezone or rotom w). Landorus-T and gliscor can be crippled by ice punch depending on your needs. The use of lum berry really helps him with the status and with the confusion once you finish using outrage. Moreover, he has access to multiscale, an awesome ability that grants that you have a free and safe dragon dance if your multiscale is not broken (thanks god Genesect is gone cause he didnt mind the multiscale).




Dragonite has A LOT of sets that can be performed ezly increasing his unpredictability.

-Dragon Dance and Choice Band. These are the common sets and no one doubts his power.

-Substitute + Dragon Dance. This set works really nice in stall teams and, if your opponent is not smart, he will have a bad time dealing with this. The main purpose of the set is to set a sub, roost of damage, set dragon dance and repeat the progress until you get sufficient boosts to sweep.

-Parashuffler. Similar to the one before. Take an attack that he will resist cause of his ability, then paralyze, then sub, wait for a "the pokemon is paralyzed, it cant move" and roost. Then time to dragon tail stuff and repeat the same progress. Again, thanks that genesect is gone he has another opportunity to work.

-Tank (Rain). "While many Dragonite sets aim to break holes, this set aims to deal with many common threats to rain teams thanks to its numerous resistances and the all-important Multiscale. Thanks to being made for rain, it has the ability to hit back hard as well, which is a key advantage over the Multiscale shuffler set. Out of every single set contained in this analysis, this set is the best abuser of Multiscale, taking advantage of Roost to stall out even super effective attacks from some of the most monstrous attackers in existence. Dragon Tail is able to be used at key times if Multiscale is intact, as well as STAB Hurricane and perfectly-accurate-in-rain Thunder to hit back hard." Took from Smogon.


What do you think about Dragonite in S Rank?

I suggested Dnite for S rank due to its capability to sweep significant portions of the metagame and its large possibilities to use different movesets with effectiveness.

Anyone agree? (Click the SHOW button to read my proposition)

 

[PK Gaming]

=====
update
=====

added Mienshao to C-tier
added Tornadus-I to B-tier
moved Haxorus up from C-tier ==> B-tier

====

No objections with adding Mienshao to C-tier and Tornadus to B-tier. Even with the existence of Tornadus-T, Tornadus-I is still a powerful threat because of its fast Speed and Hurricane. I you're doubting its viability in OU I would give this team a look.

Haxorus was a bit tricky to place. Even Genesect banned, the metagame wasn't very kind to it since everything hits fast & hard. That said, I got some mileage out of the CB set (I honestly think its better than CB Kyurem, since Haxorus can actually kill steel-types ) and the Dragon Dance set, which is pretty decent with a yache equipped. It's viability on DragMag teams speak for itself.

@Volcorona: You're going to have to sell me on why its A-tier. I understand that Volcorona is difficult to deal with once it's set up, but setting up sweep in this metagame is legitimately difficult. Rain is everywhere, and while you may argue that it just lets Volcorona abuse Hurricane, it also gives water-types a STAB boost which makes it easier to kill/weakens its Fire-STAB. Scarf Keldeo is around every corner, and can always revenge kill +1 Volcorona. Even Tornadus-T (who is omnipresent) is a good check since it resists all of its moves in the rain and can maul it with Hurricane. Even if we discount those incredibly common checks, is it really on par with the likes of Keldeo, Landorus and the majority of the offensive threats in A-tier? These are risk free sweepers who don't need SR removed to do their job and can function in almost any weather. In BW1, I wouldn't have hesitated to place Volcorona in A-tier, but its really a shell of its former self in BW2, and it shows. Volcorona is non-existent on the PS ladder, and before you cry foul and say "lol PS ladder" it wasn't very common on the Suspect ladder either (#29).

@Espeon: Yeah I'd say you've made your point Super Mario Bros. Any objections? I'm just about ready to move this thing to B-tier.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I also support Espeon for b-tier. Magic bounce is annoying enough by itself, but with so many teams relying on offensive Pokemon like keldeo, garchomp, terrak, lando, thund (poke that fall just short of espeon's 110 speed), it' surprising how many offensive teams have no practical way of dealing with it.

 

[Gehenna]

Why is Landorus-T in B-tier? Terrakion is the top physical threat in OU, and Landorus is the only hard counter in the tier, not to mention other physical threats like Garchomp and Ttar. It also has access to Intimidate, SR, STAB EQ, Voltturn abilities, etc.

I also support Espeon for b-tier. Magic bounce is annoying enough by itself, but with so many teams relying on offensive Pokemon like keldeo, garchomp, terrak, lando, thund (poke that fall just short of espeon's 110 speed), it' surprising how many offensive teams have no practical way of dealing with it.

Xatu really outclasses it.