Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[PDC]

Regenerator does greatly appreciate the help of Rapid Spin, at least on a defensive Pokemon like Tangrowth. The types of teams it is on really appreciate and almost require Spin support on them to be effective. Tangrowth is usually featured on stallish teams which really need and want Rapid Spin support in order to mantain their ability to continuously take hits and switch around. Without a Rapid Spinner Tangrowth is nowhere near as bulky and consistent, especially if there is more than 1 hazard on the field. Stealth Rock + Spikes will usually decapitate and wear Tangrowth down over time due to its lack of Recovery outside of switching out. I don't think Thangrowth is overly amazing, but it definitely can do a lot of things Celebi can't do. Tangrowth avoids the Pursuit from the likes of Tyranitar which is very helpful, and although it is nowhere near a solid Keldeo counter, the likes of Breloom and Terrakion can't break through Tangrowth with Tyranitar Pursuiting. Personally I think Power Whip is better on Tangrowth due to its increased strength and power to hit Terrakion very hard even in Sand. This makes sure you aren't falling behind too far back in the damage that you need to KO a certain threat like Tyranitar or Terrakion. Ferrothorn is definitely more useful as it can actually beat Rotom-W and Politoed without being afraid of a strong Hydro Pump 2HKOing it or doing upwards of 40% due to Tangrowth's rather weak SDef. Tangrowth was definitely better in the Excadrill era where it was bulky enough to take on Excadrill and Sand Veil Garchomp with HP Ice and Power Whip. Right now Tangrowth can definitely enjoy checking Landorus-T, who's Double Dance set is one of the most dangerous in the current metagame.

 

[Homeslice]

I'll go with B- for Tangrowth right now after seeing what else he has besides Regenerator. While Leaf Guard is inferior to Hydration, the point is Tangrowth can also work in a Sun SpeedStall/Normal Stall environment with Chlorophyll and Leaf Guard, respectively
It's not amazing but I think the slight versatility is enough to push him from C to B-

 

[Meru]

Waaaay back in the Excadrill meta, I made a stall team popular with Tangrowth but I have to say that this meta isn't as favorable to it. Tangrowth only excels at beating physical Ground-types, which haven't dominated the meta since BW1 with Sand Force Landorus, Excadrill, and Sand Veil Garchomp. In conjunction with newfound competition from Amoonguss, I think it should stay in C.

 

[PK Gaming]

Update

Tyranitar up from A+ rank ==> S rank

This change a reflection of the obvious direction the metagame is heading towards. BW OU is still a matchup heavy meta, but sand is unquestionably the most consistent team style, and consistency wins games. Top players have been claiming sand is superior to rain for months now, and i've just kind of been oblivious to the whole thing. Oh well!

Frankly, this change has been long overdue.

 

[Chou Toshio]

So counter able = not S?

 

[Gary]

Update

Tyranitar up from A+ rank ==> S rank

This change a reflection of the obvious direction the metagame is heading towards. BW OU is still a matchup heavy meta, but sand is unquestionably the most consistent team style, and consistency wins games. Top players have been claiming sand is superior to rain for months now, and i've just kind of been oblivious to the whole thing. Oh well!

Frankly, this change has been long overdue.

This change makes me so happy. Still, I wouldn't just factor its ability to summon sand as its only reasoning for going S-rank. Banded Tyranitar is one of the most feared Pokemon in the metagame right now, especially with Keldeo still being OU. The massive amount of support T-Tar brings with its ability to trap the Lati twins, both who are very common and huge threats to a large majority of the metagame, and also Celebi, one of the best specially defensive walls that can wall a lot of Pokemon commonly seen on sand teams, like Keldeo for example. Tyranitar's specially defensive set is just so damn bulky and hard to wear down, with the ability to setup SR in the face of a lot of things. All in all, T-Tar's amazing ability to whip up Sand, trap very problematic threats, break through walls, and huge bulk should make this thing an S-rank Pokemon, regardless of its weakness to common priority, Scizor, and Ground-typing. It's just such an all around amazing Pokemon in this metagame, and is easily metagame defining.

 

[Sam]

Every time I bring up Gothitelle it doesn't seem to get much discussion. I'd like to again nominate Gothitelle for (at least) A-rank. Simply put, it's the best trapper. Depending on the set, it can take out nearly anything that your team is weak to. It dissuades the opponent from using choiced fighting moves, and is able to really gain momentum back pretty quickly. It's stats may not be the best, but that's why it isn't banned. It has enough bulk to take some hits, enough speed to be able to run an effective scarf set, and enough offensive prowess to get the job done. It works really well to facilitate sweeps on most offensive teams, but it can also work well on balanced teams as well. I don't know much about defensive teams, but it seems like it could work there too. Overall, Goth's level of support is simply amazing for most teams and I think it most definitely deserves to be moved up.

 

[100%]

I agree. I'd honestly go as far to say Gothitelle is S-rank just because EVERYTHING in OU benefits from Gothitelle's support one way or another. Trapping abilities are incredible and something like Gothitelle has the potential to revenge kill / take out every threat in OU with the right move. It's a very flexible Pokemon too because it can fit on every team archetype and enhance it in some way. I'll just go through the list of relevant OU Pokemon and show how they benefit from Gothitelle's support one way or another.

Hide

Alakazam - Can trick SpD Jirachi a Choice Scarf to cripple it or trap and kill Scizor with Specs HP Fire

Blissey / Chansey - Takes out Fighting-types such as Breloom, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, ect with either a Scarf or Specs set

Breloom - Takes out Celebi with a Signal Beam and Amoongus with Psychic

Celebi - Revenge kills Gengar and takes out Scizor with HP Fire

Cloyster - Takes out Jellicent and Tentacruel pretty easily with its Specs set

Conkeldurr - Traps and kills Slowbro and Skarmory with T-bolt

Dragonite - Eliminates stuff like Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and revenge kills annoying Mamoswine

Ferrothorn - Traps and kills Fighting-types and Rapid Spin users

Forretress - Traps Spin blockers with either a Scarf set (Gengar) or a Specs set (Jellicent)

Garchomp - Deals with Steel-types and revenges Mamoswine

Gengar - Can Trick Scarf Jirachi, making it easy for Gengar to beat it with SubDisable

Gliscor - Cripples Bronzong with Trick and destroys Skarmory with T-bolt

Gyarados - Kills Ferrothorn with HP Fire and and Trick Porygon2

Heatran - Removes Fighting-types and revenge kills Dugtrio and Landorus-T with HP Ice

Hippowdon - Traps Ninetales, Politoed, and Abomasnow

Jellicent - Takes out Celebi with Signal Beam and Ferrothorn with HP Fire

Keldeo - Removes Celebi, Amoongus, and Toxicroak

Kyurem-B - Takes out or cripples Steel-types

Landorus-T - Deals with Skarmory and Ferrothorn

Lati@s - Takes out Ferrothorn should it lack HP Fire and cripples other annoying Steel-types like jirachi

Mamoswine - Takes out Skarmory

Ninetales - Traps Politoed, Abomasnow, and Hippowdon

Politoed- Traps Ninetales, Abomasnow, and Hippowdon

Reuniclus - Takes out Celebi and cripples Jirachi

Rotom-W - Revenges Celebi and Ferrothorn

Salamence - Messes with Steel-types that annoy mence

Scizor - Takes out Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Gyarados

Skarmory - Takes out Rapid Spin users

Starmie - Deals with Ferrothorn

Tentacruel - Revenge kills Ground-types with HP Ice

Terrakion - Takes out Breloom, Scizor, Skarmory, and Hippowdon

Thundurus-T - Destroys Gastrodon and Celebi

Toxicroak - Takes out Gyarados and Jellicent

Tyranitar - Takes out all other weather inducers

Venusaur - Helps keep sun by trapping and killing most weather starters

Volcarona - Takes out Tentacruel, Terrakion, and Keldeo

Obviously Gothitelle can't run all of these moves and items at the same time, but is has the potential to do some serious work for every type of team and will pretty much always make itself useful. So yeah, Gothitelle for S-rank or at the very least A-rank. This thing is probably the most underrated OU Pokemon, lol.

I'd actually say A-Rank, but S-Rank is way to far, lol. The trapping abilities are very beast, but Gothitelle isn't extremely threatening, because it has good Special Defense, but average Special attack relying on Life Orb, Choice Specs, or a super-effective move to do good damage, but due to its Psychic-typing, it has a wide movepool making LO not necesary. Choice Specs and Expert Belt are probably its best sets now, and Choice Scarf if you wan't something to take faster threats like Starmie. It's very slow, but Shadow Tag is Shadow Tag, and its typing is a two-way, so I'm going for A-Rank or B+ Rank. I'm kind of in this, because there is no A- Rank. PK Gaming, make one!

 

[Gary]

I have to agree that Gothitelle is probably the better trapper right now because it's not restricted to trapping specific Pokemon like Dugtrio is, who is really only useful for trapping T-Tar, Heatran, Ninetales, and Jirachi. Gothitelle on the other hand isn't limited at all in what it can trap successfully, and it's a much more reliable all around trapper that is a lot easier to fit onto a team then Dugtrio. I do agree with 100% that Goth's piss poor stats are what really keeps it from being a top tier trapper, and it's mono Psychic-typing doesn't give it many useful resistances to take advantage of other than the Fighting-type. I think the biggest problem with Goth is its pathetic speed stat, which keeps it from being able to abuse its Specs set as effectively. For example, Specs Gothitelle can't effectively trap LO Starmie in the rain because it's KOed by Hydro Pump. Gengar can't be trapped because it destroys Goth with Shadow Ball first. Sash Alakazam can get a hit off before Goth breaks its Sash or Tricks it Specs, and even then Zam doesn't really mind the Specs THAT much. Gyarados in the rain destroys Goth with Waterfall. Breloom outspeeds the Specs set and can Spore it to sleep, then proceed to use Bullet Seed and possibly kill it in merely two turns. The Scarf Gothitelle set IMO is just way to weak to use effectively, it's still very slow, and it only seems to be useful in Tricking the occasional wall here or there (which I can do with Scarf Latios anyway).

All in all, I feel that Goth's all around shitty Speed stat combined with a below average SpA stat keeps it from being really good. It's either too slow, or too weak depending on what set you run. It can't effectively trap certain things that it NEEDS to be able to trap, and it's defensive typing makes it hard for Gothitelle find opportunities to switch in or trap. It's a good Pokemon, but it wishes it were better. I think B+ is fine for it, because while it's flaws keep it from being absolutely amazing, its trapping abilities and great movepool keep it from being as one sided as Dugtrio. Many would say that Dugtrio is arguably a better trapper in this current meta because of how common the Pokemon I listed above are and how Dugtrio can easily trap them, but Goth is still very underrated and almost just as good if not better at trapping all around. I just don't think it's good enough to be a solid A-rank Pokemon, nor Dugtrio. Both have their share of flaws. I feel like Goth has more potential to be A-rank then Dugtrio though.

 

[Sam]

See, the thing with Goth is that between the item, moves, EV spread, etc., Goth can be essentially tailor made for your team. Goth has a variety of things that it CAN do, but on a given team it's not going to need to do all of them. Icecream made a good list of what Goth can do. On a given team, obviously it's not going to be able to do all of that, but it can do what you need. If getting a certain pokemon on your opponent's team out of the way is absolutely necessary, Goth can do that for most threats. That's simply unprecedented amount of support. Goth's speed isn't really an issue since it's enough to be able to outspeed most offensive mons with a scarf, which is all it really needs.

 

[Schpoonman]

My problem with Gothitelle has always been that he's so damn WEAK. The Specs set can't even 2HKO SpDef Hippowdon without Grass Knot.

 

[PDC]

Gothitelle is a very interesting case, but I ultimately agree with Gary in his B+ ranking. Gothitelle works very well with virtually everything. But I really do believe one of Gothitelle's best partners is SD U-Turn Lando-T. You can absolutely destroy every single one of SD Lando-T's counters such as Rotom-W, Hippowdon, Skarmory, and basically everything else that can stop it. Gothitelle + Kyurem-B + Landorus-T works amazingly and does very well as a combination that really puts Gothitelle to work. Gothitelle is a good Pokemon, very underrated, but I really don't think it deserves S Rank. Psychic is kind of a average mono-type to actually put into place, its just not something that is really too "amazing." B+ Rank fits it probably the best out of everything.

 

[Lolazo]

i think toxicroak and tornadus can up to A- rank and gengar gyarados can down to the same rank, toxicroak is awesome in rain can wall TTar, keldeo, politoed (lol 3 S rank Pokemon) and can Toxic her counters, Tornadus has the best STAB in the metagame, Good coverage and Some versality (Specs, Sharp Beak, LO, Acrobat), and Powerful moves.
Gengar is somewhat weak and Pursuit weak, besides the fact that Landorus is Banned and jirachi being better, and Gyara loses the niche with landorus banned and is easily walled

 

[ciaranroy]

I agree with Toxicroak and Tornadus going up, but disagree with lowering Gyarados and Gengar. I don't quite know what you mean by saying Jirachi is better than Gengar, as they have literally nothing in common. And I also don't know how base 130 special attack classifies as "weak". Gengar has an amazing niche as an offensive spinblocker, and its SubDisable set is absolutely infuriating to play against. Keep it A. Also, Gyarados is an absolute monster, especially in rain. It sets up with ease on a plethora of OU Pokes, even more if it runs Intimidate. It has two ridiculous stabs that are only resisted by 2 Pokemon in the top 100, one of which is barely seen at all. Sure, Bounce is very unreliable, but its pretty hard to play around when you have a few boosts and nothing is switching in with impunity. Also, Rotom-W can do nothing against SubDD if it doesn't run Thunderbolt. Keep that A as well.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I think Zapdos should be moved down to C rank. Zapdos's main niche was to counter Landorus-I (without SR), who is now banned. As such, Zapdos is now outclassed by Thundurus-T, who packs much higher Special Attack (145 vs 125), Nasty Plot, a trolly base Speed and a wider special movepool which allows it to do things Zapdos could only wish for, such as getting rid of Tyranitar.

 

[MikeDawg]

I think the issue with goth is that it is tailored to eliminate walls for the most part

And this is great on paper, until you realize that 80% of the time it won't be a gliscor stopping your terrakion, it'll be a scizor/lati/keldeo/etc

Goth would be great in a stall based meta... Not this one

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to nominate Toxicroak for A rank.
Toxicroak is by large THE best counter to Keldeo: it can not only negate Keldeo's rain-boosted scary water attacks but also can beat out Ttar(which is the biggest thing for me, since Ttar pursuit traps most of Keldeo's counters).

Toxicroak also functions well on rain teams, setting Bulk Up with ease and sweeping.
Overall, I think with the prevalence of Keldeo in the current metagame, Toxicroak should be A(at least until Keldeo is banned, that is to say).

 

[RotomPoison]

Nominating Kabutops for B- rank

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

Kabutops is the only spinner that can also act as a rain counter other then Starmie, however, Kabutops has the ability to boost his attack using Swords Dance, is able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame in rain, and even without boosting has a higher attacking stat and better secondary STAB. Kabutops, also unlike Starmie, is not Pursuit weak, has a high defense stat, and has the ability to crush stall in or out of rain.

Kabutops outside of rain is too slow to handle offense, and faces competition from Omastar offensively and defensively as a rain counter and late game sweeper, though it can still differentiate itself from Omastar by being physically based (offensively) and not being setup bait like Forretress.

Kabutops cannot always sweep even in rain but does hit rain teams on their lower defensice stat, and is one of the fastest available spinners in OU while providing an offensive presence, so it does fulfill an offensive and defensive (supportive) niche.

Edit: lol 69th post (sorry I had to say it)

 

[Boondocker]

Nominating Kabutops for B- rank

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support.

Kabutops should be C rank IMO. You cant use him effectively on a rain team. And the chance you run into an opposing Politoad is like 25% (too lazy to check stats, but i know its well under 50%). So basically 75% of the time you are running a crap mon. Plus if you run Rapid Spin you don't have room for Swords Dance (water+rock coverage is sub-par). This means C rank because Kabutops needs unlikely support from an opposing Politoad or an entire team built around rain dance to be effective.

 

[RotomPoison]

Yes he is better against rain, but the main point of using it supportively is spinning, which it can do out of rain when played well, and it isn't 100% outclassed by other spinners, when used offensively he can destroy defensive teams and destroy anything slower then it on offense.

 

[vyomov]

Nominating Cobalion for B-Rank.
Cobalion is a severely underrated team supporter that can act as an amazing lead with Volt Switch and SR and can also offer a lot to the defensive backbone of the team.
Very underrated imo.

 

[False Sense]

I actually agree with Cobalion for B- Rank. While it certainly isn't as good or as versatile as Keldeo and Terrakion, Cobalion still manages to carve a niche for itself in OU with its surprisingly effective mixed set. With a moveset of Close Combat, Volt Switch, and HP Ice, and while holding an Expert Belt, Cobalion is capable of hitting a good portion of OU for quick super effective damage, and is excellent for breaking through a wide variety of walls while also being a pivot for other teammates with Volt Switch. It's great defense and typing also let it take a few stray hits, which is always nice. Not to mention it can run Taunt in the last moveslot to shut down walls and render them useless. Or you can even run Stealth Rock if you don't have anything else to put it on. Overall, I think it has a unique niche in OU as a one-of-a-kind wallbreaker, and does not require an excess amount of support that typical C-Rank pokemon require. I think B- Rank is suitable for it.

 

[Kidogo]

Toxicroak should stay in B+ at best. It's a decent keldeo check I guess (although 2HKO'ed by neutral specs HPs, and secret sword if any prior damage), and a good sweeper in rain, but it's honestly not all that threatening--it's relatively slow, and is weak without a boost (and even with, it can't get past physical walls). It has defensive typing that leaves it weak to multiple common attacking types, meaning it has difficulty setting up bar on stuff that is choice-locked. It does have cool auto-recovery, and it can set up in the faces of bulky waters, which is imo by far its biggest perk. But it's hugely dependent on rain and is honestly not too threatening even with it. I'd honest put it in B, but B+ is fine I guess given how popular rain is.

 

[Homeslice]

Couple things

It dissuades the opponent from using choiced fighting moves

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 153-180 (54.44 - 64.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is literally the only Fighting type in OU I'd give a choice item and unless you're running scarf I just 2HKO you because you had to switch in. Scarf misses the OHKO without major hazards support anyways. (Actually this might be wrong now that I think about it because of SpD drop but I'm too lazy to go do calcs again but in that case only viable version of Goth is Scarf and one viable set usually means B Tier for me) Goth is fine where it is, every time I see it I don't think anything of it because I know I can pretty much 2HKO it with anything deserving of a teamslot

I posted something about Toxicroak literally 3 pages back about how it shouldn't move up

Zapdos needs to move down, it has no niche now that Lando-I was banned

I used Cobalion in like post Deo-D pre Lando-I ban era I think and it was substantially underwhelming. Like I guess its moveset appeal is cool and all until you realize it can actually hurt anything and is almost completely outclassed by Lando-T except for the fact it has a Steel/Fight typing which is cool I guess but that's no where near enough merit for B- and If there was an option for it I'd put it in C- ranking (and I think it's like C right now, not even C+) so I honestly can't agree with it. I'd much rather use Virizion which is more helpful because it jacks up Keldeo and TTar while Cobalion doesn't and Specially Defensive mons are more valuable than physically defensive mons right now so I'd rather move up Virizion before Cobalion but who knows maybe Cobalion is awesome now that Lando-I is banned (but probably not.)
And I'm not sure where you're getting this defensive backbone stuff from because Cobalion is just a slightly less bulky version of Skarmory and Skarmory struggles to hold its own considering the amount of special attackers thrown everywhere so it's not doing much, and being weak to Fighting and Ground makes you weak to two of the most prevalent attacking types in OU so it's not looking good there
It's almost completely outclassed by Ferrothorn too which has much better overall bulk and is also decent at attacking stuff but sure if you don't like blissey or something and you refuse to run any physical attackers Cobalion could work I guess

And after rereading my Toxicroak stuff and my Cobalion arguments Virizion actually seems pretty cool so I'll be playtesting it to try and get reqs and posting my thoughts here

 

[PDC]

CORN ON THE COB

Cobalion seems underwhelming at first. To be honest when dragonuser used in in World Cup I was very skeptical in its effectiveness and how it would work. But Cobalion is definitely worthy of B- rank. Not only does it have a great speed stat, it can definitely do more damage than you would think. While a bit weak on the offenses, Cobalion does make it up with a pretty solid typing and good resistance to hazards. Cobalion really brings in support in different ways. I personally think Cobalion is possibly one of DragMag's biggest threats, and because of that it definitely should earn some recognition. The Expert Belt set can gain fast (albeit weak) momentum with Volt Switch, revenge threats like Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, Landorus-T, and previously Landorus-I very well with an HP Ice. Close Combat is always a good way to get off a decently hard hit when needed as well. Cobalion also has access to a lot of utility moves such at Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and Taunt. Cobalion works very well as a good anti-lead and it can prevent Stealth Rock most of the time. An Expert Belt boosted HP Ice scares off Landorus-T and Garchomp (its SR or not) and the Close Combat wrecks Heatran and Tyranitar. Cobalion can hit off of Politoed with a Volt Switch and do a pretty impressive amount of 36.97 - 43.75% for a move of that level.

In conclusion, Cobalion may seem inferior, it definitely isn't in many cases. It is a very interesting choice for a team and does very well against a myriad of threats. It is a very underrated and unexpected threats.