The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[Molk]

Okay its been 2 days and ive noticed that discussion dies down a bit here, so im going to make a few changes to the ranks, going back to the old proposed changes, here are the results! Note that some changes werent discussed at all and are therefore still in the proposed changes stage!

Crustle STAYS B rank

Drapion UP from A rank to S rank (lots of support on this guy, but there were a few people on irc who thought A was just fine, if you have the time, feel free to post your reasoning here!).

Hitmonlee DOWN from A rank to C rank

Jynx STAYS A rank (still a proposed change)

Zangoose STAYS A rank (still a proposed change, though)

Quagsire STAYS C rank (pretty much everyone agreed that its mostly outclassed by wrath, and i honestly havent ever seen a good team with quaggy when i wouldnt have wanted to use wrath)

Emboar UP from C rank to B rank (emboar was discussed quite a bit on irc, and the general consensus was that emboar has some cool perks over the other fires like fighting STAB, a lack of a rocks weakness, and being a slightly more reliable switch into escavalier thanks to the 4x bug resist. I also used emboar a bit myself and was impressed).

Durant STAYS A rank (still a proposed change i guess, NewBreed brings up a good point, also, i havent really played against enough durant to make a good judgement myself, d_c also suggested i stop moving cress and durant until we have official votes on them!


Along with the new changes, here are a few new proposed changes!


Dusknoir DOWN from D rank to E rank

Aerodactyl UP from B rank to A rank

Escavalier UP from A rank to S rank

Mandibuzz UP from D rank to C rank

Pineco UP from Untested Rank to D rank

Basculin UP from Untested Rank to B rank

Jynx DOWN from A rank to B rank

Zangoose DOWN from A rank to B rank

Added Kangaskhan to Untested Rank

Two changes that werent discussed much, if it all are still being left as proposed changes, all the official changes that were made can be vetoed if enough people disagree! I have to go soon so im going to have to make this post a little shorter than some of my others, but i personally agree with esca moving up, and strongly disagree with zangoose moving down. Im a big troll pineco fan so im glad to see someone supporting that gimmick for something other than E! I have also heard good things about Basculin, but i have never tested it myself. I added Kangaskhan to the untested list as well! Kangaskhan has good overall stats and its banded double edge is a force to be reckoned with, Kangaskhan also comes along with the rare ability scrappy, meaning it can just charge through pokemon like spiritomb and rotom without much trouble. Kangaskhan is also bulky enough to take a few stray hits, worth at least C rank in RU imo =).

One more thing i would like to mention! Im starting to think S rank is getting a little bit too crowded, usually S rank is just reserved for the best of the best, but its sort of hard to believe that every single one of the S rank pokemon is a cut above even the A rank mons. Someone mentioned rotom-C might be more fitting for A, thoughts?

 

[TROP]

Because molk is a meanie and doesn't want to do it if I don't post here, I want Liepard going from untested to C rank.This is mostly based on NP that is the only set I have used because weather support looks outclassed by Whimsicott and Volbeat, and haven't tried foul play swagger set yet.


Despite having an average 88 sp.A, Liepard is a surprisingly decent NP user thanks to its access to priority encore, that allows it to set up easily against most defensive and even some offensive mons(SD Kabutops before it aqua jets you, anything with a sub, CM Sigyliph, DD Fraxure, and plenty of other pokemon) without fear and risking taking a hit that would do massive damage to it.It is also decently fast sitting at 106 speed. And if for some reason you want to run limber, it sets up on Cress without fearing a Thunder Wave and ohko as soon it gets to +2 with Dark Pulse or more realistically, hit whatever comes in for decent damage, but losing prankster is not really worth it most of the time.

Problems for liepard include being frail as fuck and needing to decided a 4th move that leaves it either walled by the few steel types(Grass Knot) or by poliwrath(hp fire).

 

[Yonko7]

I propose changing Ferroseed from C rank to B rank.

The unique typing, combined with a complete hazard setting arsenal is an awesome trait to have. Sure Crustle also has the luxury of setting up both Stealth Rock and Spikes, but isn't as bulky as Ferroseed. It's bulk allows it to take Water-, Grass-, and Electric-type attacks all day.

Additionally, Ferroseed can be EVed physically or specially to handle a range of threats. Sure it has a sad offensive presence and a 4x Fire-type weakness but that is why teammates exist.

To differentiate from Crustle, Ferroseed has Thunder Wave, Gyro Ball, the bulk, and Iron Barbs.

 

[panamaxis]

Sure Crustle also has the luxury of setting up both Stealth Rock and Spikes, but isn't as bulky as Ferroseed.

SR, leech seed and spikes is now legal on ferro so that's another thing in its favour

 

[Molk]

SR, leech seed and spikes is now legal on ferro so that's another thing in its favour

Ferroseed has major 4mss sadly, and can really only afford to run two of those at a time anyway, which is a shame ;_;. Ferro really doesnt have room for SR+spikes imo, because leech seed is the seeds only method of recovery, and ferroseed also needs twave to make itself less of a sitting duck (im sorry, but ferroseed is HUGE set up bait without twave). Actually, the only set i would consider using on ferroseed is spikes/leech seed/gyro ball/thunder wave. Imo there are better stealth rock setters than ferroseed such as uxie or even steelix. I would rather take advantage of ferroseed's good typing to switch in multiple times and set up several layers of spikes. Leech Seed and Thunder Wave are both needed to make ferroseed less of a free boost, without either of them multiple pokemon would set up on the durain without much effort. Gyro ball is ferroseed's most powerful attack, and the 150 base power stab is pretty much needed so you can 2hko frailer pokemon, seed bomb is useful in some situations but its usually the inferior option thanks to its lower base power.

Overall, Im not exactly sure on ferroseed's placement, but i find that C rank is fitting for it because while it has an excellent niche as a spikes setter, its rather easy to take advantage of or set up on from my experience, at least leech seed and twave help out with that ;-;.

 

[Honko]

I agree with Molk that S rank is getting a bit crowded. With that in mind, I propose...

Drapion down from S to A. I think we were a little hasty moving it up as a reaction to Cress. Drapion is a great counter to Cress and one of the better Pursuit trappers, which are two great points in its favor, but outside of those niches it's not that great. It's not strong enough to be a devastating sweeper (only base 90 Attack, but more importantly only 80 BP on its STABs). Defensively, it has a great typing, movepool, and Speed, but it lacks recovery and its stats aren't good enough to truly be a wall. It shuts down a very important handful of Pokemon, but it's not as good as things like Slowking, Tangrowth, and Poliwrath as a defensive Pokemon. Drapion is definitely a solid Pokemon, but S rank Pokemon should be more than solid; they should be dominant, and Drapion isn't.

 

[DittoCrow]

Yeah I agree with Honko. Drapion is not "dominant" and while it is really good because it can run a variety of sets and check a lot of Pokemon, it can usually be checked by a lot of Pokemon itself. It's not like you need Drapion to beat Cresselia either, as there are a few other Pokemon who are able to do so.

Ferroseed, in my opinion, is not as awful as everyone says. It completely walls Kabutops and can Leech Seed opponents like Drapion. However, Ferroseed is not that good in the current metagame, it was better when stuff like Feraligatr was used more. It doesn't really have trouble setting up Spikes, though, and it can spread paralysis easily because most of the switch-ins to Ferroseed are Pokemon such as Entei, Moltres, Rotom-C, and Gallade who all dislike paralysis. It's a good lure for these Pokemon if your team revolves around spreading paralysis. I guess that C Rank is good for Ferroseed right now.

I'm going to question Swellow being in the A Rank. Swellow usually runs a moveset of Protect/Quick Attack, Brave Bird, Facade, and U-turn, which means that it is totally walled by a lot of Pokemon such as Kabutops, Regirock, Steelix, and other Rock- and Steel-types. However, once these Pokemon are removed, Swellow can be a devastating force, but only for a few turns. Between being weak to Stealth Rock (which requires Rapid Spin support and prevents Swellow from being reckless with U-turn), Toxic Orb damage, and Brave Bird recoil, Swellow doesn't exactly stay on the field as long as one would like. After residual damage takes effect, Swellow can be easily revenge killed by something with priority, such as Spiritomb. Swellow requires a bit of team support imo, and fits the definition of B Rank more than A Rank.

 

[Honko]

I agree with DC about Swellow. It requires a lot more support than any other Pokemon in A rank right now. It's good at what it does, but it isn't self-sufficient at all, because almost every team naturally carries at least one hard counter to it. It should go to B rank.

 

[Phazon00]

I thoroughly disagree with the claims about Drapion. It's Bulky SD set is extremely powerful (From my Experience) with it's +2 Crunches hitting like battering rams and EQ providing great coverage. And it's 95 base speed can win the race against not-max speed Uxie and get off a fast taunt. So yeah, Drapion should stay in S.

So what should fall out of S? I think these are the ones that should certainly stay-
Moltres, Sceptile, Kabutops, Entei, Cresselia and Drapion These, in my opinion, are no-brainers. Stay in S, and dominate the tier.

The last four are the ones that I think could maybe drop a place. Uxie is kind of overshadowed by Cress, but it still has a niche of having a wider support movepool, so I think S or very, very high A.

Rotom-Mow is, without a doubt, one of the best Scarfers in the tier. That alone puts it high up, but it can also run a bulkier set that works as well. So yeah, S or high A.

Smeargle, I think, can drop to A. Here's how every Smeargle that faces me goes down. First turn- I bring it down to sash, then it spores. I switch out to a priority user, and it sets up. Then it dies. See- it literally accomplished squat. So yeah, Smeargle for A.

The last one is Nidoqueen, which many think is simply an auto-S. However, many people are preparing for this brutalizing force, and it has become so centralizing that all teams pack Queen counters. So, maybe consider this for a drop.

Yeah, there's my input.

 

[DittoCrow]

Bulky SD Drapion is probably the worst Drapion set. It's not even getting its own set in the updated analysis. 252 Atk Drapion is already weak at +2, an example would be that it cannot 2HKO Steelix. Many things wall Offensive SD Drapion as well, so I don't know what makes you think Bulky SD Drapion is good. Rhydon, Steelix, Escavalier, and other obvious threats all do a ton of damage to Bulky Drapion. Hell, even Sceptile 2HKOes. Drapion is way to weak if it doesn't run 252 Attack (+2 0 Atk Drapion Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 204-240 (45.94 - 54.05%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO). Like Honko and I said earlier, Drapion gets countered by a plethora of threats, lacks recovery, has 4 moveslot syndrome, and is generally just average offensively.

 

[Honko]

I thoroughly disagree with the claims about Drapion. It's Bulky SD set is extremely powerful (From my Experience) with it's +2 Crunches hitting like battering rams and EQ providing great coverage. And it's 95 base speed can win the race against not-max speed Uxie and get off a fast taunt. So yeah, Drapion should stay in S.

The bulky SD set has a few nice qualities, but hitting like a battering ram definitely isn't one of them. It fails to OHKO pretty much anything that isn't weak to Crunch or Earthquake, including a lot of offensive Pokemon that can outspeed and 2HKO or even OHKO it. For example:

+2 0 Atk Drapion Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 165-195 (56.7 - 67.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tauros has decent physical bulk, but this is still kind of embarrassing. You also have to choose between being fast or being bulky, with either choice leading to more Pokemon beating you. It's great against stall, but saying it hits hard is simply not true.

Smeargle, I think, can drop to A. Here's how every Smeargle that faces me goes down. First turn- I bring it down to sash, then it spores. I switch out to a priority user, and it sets up. Then it dies. See- it literally accomplished squat. So yeah, Smeargle for A.

Putting something to sleep and setting up a layer of hazards is not "squat". That said, I support moving Smeargle down to A. The hazard lead is less effective now that people are prepared for it, plus the heavy offense teams it fits best on are less viable now with Cresselia in the tier. The BP and TR sets aren't bad in theory, but I haven't seen a serious Smeargle BP team since SmashPass was banned or a serious TR Smeargle since Molk's TR team from like January. Until those sets actually get some wide success I don't think they're really worth discussing, and the hazard lead alone isn't good enough to make Smeargle S.

 

[Molk]

Im just going to post here to make something clear, new nominations are cool and all, and you guys are still allowed to respond to other people's nominations before they get to the proposed changes stage, but i would really like it if most of our non you nominate something for a new proposed change discussion was about the current proposed changes. It makes it much easier to place these pokemon, and also makes sure we dont get backed up on these changes thanks to there being little to no discussion on them. For the record, here are the current proposed changes:

Dusknoir DOWN from D rank to E rank

Aerodactyl UP from B rank to A rank

Escavalier UP from A rank to S rank

Mandibuzz UP from D rank to C rank

Pineco UP from Untested Rank to D rank

Basculin UP from Untested Rank to B rank

Jynx DOWN from A rank to B rank

Zangoose DOWN from A rank to B rank

Added Kangaskhan to Untested Rank

Thank you for taking this into consideration =)

 

[DittoCrow]

I still support Smeargle being A Rank. It has trouble setting up; so many things run Lum Berry, such as Gallade, Drapion, and Uxie, or have Sleep Talk, such as Escavalier, Entei, and Poliwrath, that Smeargle usually can't set up more than 1 layer of Spikes. It has a much tougher job now than it did before because everyone comes prepared for it.

On the proposed changes:

Dusknoir's only niche is that it is one of the few Ghost-types to beat Cryogonal. However, it even has trouble doing that, as it falls to any offensive pressure. I'd be fine with moving it to E Rank, since there really isn't any reason to use Dusknoir on a team.

Aerodactyl should definitely not move up to A Rank. Yes it usually has a guaranteed chance of setting up Stealth Rock. That's it though. Aerodactyl doesn't really have a strong offensive presence, and it gets hit hard by priority from Kabutops and Absol. Furthermore, its Stealth Rock weakness is a hindrance, and it is powerless vs defensive teams. Aerodactyl is not that good, it's probably a low B Rank in my opinion.

I think I've already shared my opinions on the rest! (I agree with them :p)

 

[TROP]

This is missing the newest member of this tier: Stoutland.

I believe this thing is honestly D rank at best because unless using manual sand, it is outclassed by like all normal types at any role it can possibly do; intimidate strong physical attacker is done better by Granbull that is not great and has a few niche support options like Heal Bell making it better than Stoutland for more defensive roles. Scrappy is done better by either Miltank or Kanga with their superior movepool, speed, and even bulk, making Stoutland's slightly better attack not worth it most of the time. Honestly its only niche is one of the two viable Sand Rush users in the tier, but let's be honest, manual sand is not as good as manual rain or sun to guarantee a higher spot. I originally wanted e for this guy, but it would be insulting to put it on the same level than Metang, ,Munchlax, and Dusknoir.

move Escavalier to e because it is literally 2hkoed by Stoutland's fire fang.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Aight, I wasn't going to comment about it since in all honesty I don't really care. But at this point I might as well since people are otherwise going to endlessly egg me on to do so. Better not disappoint!

Dusknoir must stay in D Rank. Or did you forget your own ruling about Dusknoir not budging from D Rank at all? Also, I'm using it in UU and RU as an adequate SubPuncher. While it is understood that there are arguably better candidates for a SubPuncher role (such as Aggron), Dusknoir can fulfill SubPuncher and spinblocker simultaneously. While Golurk can also do the same thanks to Iron Fist, Dusknoir is a more robust Pokemon defensively, while also boasting a really good Attack stat.

Dusknoir fits a niche of "Physically attacking Ghost-type" that very few other Ghosts can legitimately claim competition with. Bar Golurk and Shedinja, there are no others for Dusknoir to compete with in this Physically-dominant niche. Almost all other Ghost-types in the upper tiers are Specially-oriented when it comes to offense. While this is not quite enough for him to move up to C Rank, Dusknoir does more than Metang or Munchlax and is therefore inherently superior to either of them (which was also admitted several discussions ago in this same thread).

Honestly, if I had any doubt about Dusknoir's capabilities I would've stopped using him months ago. I experimented with him and other Pokemon as part of a scheme to keep Metang out of RU so this Viability Thread isn't a mess of total hypocrisy the likes of which not even HuntSaboteur could keep up with.

That said, let's keep him in D Rank and not start a host of other absurdities. Kthx.

 

[Molk]

Okay, ive made quite a few changes to the ranks after talking with Oglemi, Silentverse, and Dittocrow, quite a few are changes that have already been suggested, but some havent, here is the summary of all the changes that have taken place as of now!

Smeargle and Drapion have been moved down from S rank to A rank

Amoonguss, Swellow, and Jynx have been moved down from A rank to B rank

Whimsicott and Mesprit have been moved down from B rank to C rank

Mandibuzz has been moved up from D rank to C rank

Basculin and Liepard have been moved up from Untested Rank to C rank

Pineco has been moved up from Untested Rank to D rank

All proposed changes that havent been implemented during this shift are still up for discussion, and im also adding on some of the newer proposed changes.

New proposed change list:

Dusknoir DOWN from D rank to E rank

Aerodactyl UP from B rank to A rank

Escavalier UP from A rank to S rank

Zangoose DOWN from A rank to B rank

Ferroseed UP from C rank to B rank

Kangaskhan UP from Untested rank to B rank

Stoutland UP from Untested rank to D rank


One thing i would like to mention is that this thread might temporarily go under new management if i happen to lose power with hurricane sandy closing in on my place today, if i lose power ill edit this post from my phone with who will be managing this thread while im gone!


Anyways, this has been a great discussion so far and i cant wait to see more great posts from you guys! =).

 

[Phazon00]

I Nominate Garbodor for C Rank. With all the Fighting-types running around, Garbodor puts a stop to all of them, as can shrug off their boosts with Clear Smog. After testing it, it is far from useless, and definitely is deserving of the C Rank.

 

[Koinzell]

Proposed change : Uxie from S to A

Mainly because of Cresselia, the 2 compete for the "bulky psychic-type with Levitate" role. Cresselia is better at using Calm Mind, and while Support Uxie is far from being outclassed, Cresselia's presence hurt it, it means setup sweepers that beat Cresselia are going to be more present and those tend to run over Uxie (think stuff like SubDance Crawdaunt or SD + Taunt Drapion)

Pineco has been moved up from Untested Rank to D rank

This is the change I really don't get, I don't know, maybe it's because I tested Pineco in NU ages ago and it was bad, like really really bad. What set are you guys using ? I suppose something like : Spikes / Rapid Spin / Toxic / Volt Switch with max physical bulk. What exactly is that set doing ? I mean, Eviolite mons with 0 offensive presence tend to be awful, unless they have some kind of niche by typing or movepool, Pineco has neither. As a Rapid Spinner it can't get past any Ghosts and Pineco doesn't fare well against most hazard setters, even the oh-so-mighty Uxie 3HKOs 248 HP Pineco. As a Spiker it has to compete with the plethora of Spikers in the tier and every single one of them tend to bring more to a team than Pineco.

So what's left ? Volt Switch on a SR weak Pokemon with no recovery ?

In my opinion, Pineco should be E Rank.

Dusknoir DOWN from D rank to E rank

I agree /B/utterfree on this one. If Cofagrigus wasn't UU, there would be no question about Dusknoir ranking. But right now it's the bulkiest pure Ghost type available and while Spiritomb's typing makes it better 90% of the time, some teams can't afford to have a Ghost type that struggles against Escavalier and Scolipede. Dusknoir should stay in D Rank .

 

[TROP]

Proposed change

I agree /B/utterfree on this one. If Cofagrigus wasn't UU, there would be no question about Dusknoir ranking. But right now it's the bulkiest pure Ghost type available and while Spiritomb's typing makes it better 90% of the time, some teams can't afford to have a Ghost type that struggles against Escavalier and Scolipede. Dusknoir should stay in D Rank .

Except for the part where even the mighty Lampent(that is not even good) does a better job at stopping those and actually scare shit because of its access to decently powerful STAB moves and two decent abilities that either make it stronger for a defensive mon or just ruin the day of things like Escavalier with a burn. Lampent also spin blocks Cryo better than Dusknoir, losing to Sandslash and Tops suck, but is not like Dusknoir had a chance against those anyway And like Kyurem(-b)has proved, stats alone mean nothing when everything else about the mon sucks.

Missy and Lampent have about the same bulk thanks to eviolite and more offensive presence as well(Missy's Shadow Ball is stronger than DUsknoir's Shadow Punch). In missy's case, she has heal bell to be the superior pure ghost type no questions asked.

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Lampent: 244-291 (75.3 - 89.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 244-291 (75.3 - 89.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 218-260 (74.14 - 88.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Leftovers might look like an advantage here, but dusknoir is so bad and weak for that to even matter.


Oh wait this is a kid that uses scarf typh. I should have expected this.

 

[Molk]

Pineco has been moved up from Untested Rank to D rank: This is the change I really don't get, I don't know, maybe it's because I tested Pineco in NU ages ago and it was bad, like really really bad. What set are you guys using ? I suppose something like : Spikes / Rapid Spin / Toxic / Volt Switch with max physical bulk. What exactly is that set doing ? I mean, Eviolite mons with 0 offensive presence tend to be awful, unless they have some kind of niche by typing or movepool, Pineco has neither. As a Rapid Spinner it can't get past any Ghosts and Pineco doesn't fare well against most hazard setters, even the oh-so-mighty Uxie 3HKOs 248 HP Pineco. As a Spiker it has to compete with the plethora of Spikers in the tier and every single one of them tend to bring more to a team than Pineco.

So what's left ? Volt Switch on a SR weak Pokemon with no recovery ?

In my opinion, Pineco should be E Rank.

Pineco is in D rank, or even considered for the list at all thanks to a gimmicky level 1 suicide hazard setter that is actually pretty effective vs a lot of teams, but it is a gimmick nonthenless, so its not going above D.

Here is what the set looks like

GOD (Pineco) @ Berry Juice
Trait: Sturdy
Level: 1
Serious Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin / Toxic

basically what you do is lead with this guy (unless the opponent has taunt or something), and set up stealth rock as the opponent attacks, sturdy+berry juice keeps you alive as you do that. From there you can spam pain split and try to get something to as low an amount of hp as possible, then set up a layer of spikes at the end, if the opponent tries to set up hazards with you, they are frankly going to have a problem, because you can simply spin away the entry hazards at the end, and set up hazards along with them. This set handily beats uxie leads without much effort, while also setting up hazards all other steelix, among other things. The reason pineco isnt any higher is thanks to its weaknesses to multi hit moves, status, and taunt, but if you can work around these things pineco is actually a pretty effective lead, and deserving of D rank.

 

[Koinzell]

For TropiOUs

I do agree with you that Misdraevius > Dusknoir (I don't agree with Phys defensive Lampent though, cause SR weak and loses to all the spinners). But Still, Misdraevius is B Ranked and I don't think Dusknoir should share ranks with Metang. Lack of Eviolite makes Dusknoir a little more bulky and impredictible than Misdreavius (Sub/Punch for instance) and that's enough to justify not being E imo. Also, WoW Dusknoir doesn't lose against Hitmonchan or Sandslash.

GOD (Pineco) @ Berry Juice
Trait: Sturdy
Level: 1
Serious Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin / Toxic

And now this makes sense. Thanks Molk

 

[TROP]

For TropiOUs

I do agree with you that Misdraevius > Dusknoir (I don't agree with Phys defensive Lampent though, cause SR weak and loses to all the spinners). But Still, Misdraevius is B Ranked and I don't think Dusknoir should share ranks with Metang. Lack of Eviolite makes Dusknoir a little more bulky and impredictible than Misdreavius (Sub/Punch for instance) and that's enough to justify not being E imo. Also, WoW Dusknoir doesn't lose against Hitmonchan or Sandslash.
And now this makes sense. Thanks Molk

Only terrible players use Hitmonchan and Sandslash as spinners to start with, bad mons winning against bad mons is not a legitimate reason. And dusknoir bulk means nothing when everything decently powerful still beats it (with SR alone)and is so damn slow that he can't prevent it from ever happening.

Edit because Mold reminded me about it: Lampent beats Cryogonal, that is the only (worth using)spinner that Dusknoir has small chances of beating.

 

[Koinzell]

Only terrible players use Hitmonchan and Sandslash as spinners to start with, bad mons winning against bad mons is not a legitimate reason. And dusknoir bulk means nothing when everything decently powerful still beats it (with SR alone)and is so damn slow that he can't prevent it from ever happening.

Edit because Mold reminded me about it: Lampent beats Cryogonal, that is the only (worth using)spinner that Dusknoir has small chances of beating.

With your EV spread it doesn't. SDef Cryogonal easily Toxic stalls you and Offensive Cryo 2HKOs with LO Hidden Power Ground, things become worse if Lampent is switching into Cryogonal, like a spinblocker should. Like it or not, Sandslash and Hitmonchan have some niche that makes them usable over Cryo and Kabutops, and I don't see how a D-Rank Ghost beating D-Rank spinners is irrelevant. If we're talking about the low tier Ghost we might as well consider low tier spinners.

But I'm done talking about Dusknoir, it's pretty obvious we won't change opinions.

 

[TROP]

With your EV spread it doesn't. SDef Cryogonal easily Toxic stalls you and Offensive Cryo 2HKOs with LO Hidden Power Ground, things become worse if Lampent is switching into Cryogonal, like a spinblocker should. Like it or not, Sandslash and Hitmonchan have some niche that makes them usable over Cryo and Kabutops, and I don't see how a D-Rank Ghost beating D-Rank spinners is irrelevant. If we're talking about the low tier Ghost we might as well consider low tier spinners.

But I'm done talking about Dusknoir, it's pretty obvious we won't change opinions.

Offensive Cryo dies before it can 2HKO Lampent, while sp.def(that is a shitty spread btw because it is fucked by spiritomb), takes burn damage pushing it to the 2hko range if it tries to recover and Cryo decides to keep spamming recover. And Lampent also gets pain split, making the spinning snowflake wanting to kill itself it wants to stay in. Lampent might die in the process sometimes , but Cryogonal will be crippled and easy to kill with whatever the opponent want to use. And btw, the spread is not what I would actually use with lampent. That calc was just to show that the bulk is similar factoring in eviolite if they run the same spread.

And Sandslash and Hitmonchan have no reason to be used at all for spinning, unless we are using the mighty ladder reasoning, that leads to retarded stuff like subseed whimsicott being the most used twice.

Actually nominating Lampent for D. It hardcounters Escavalier. It does nothing else, but that alone is more than what most stuff in D can do.

 

[Molk]

With your EV spread it doesn't. SDef Cryogonal easily Toxic stalls you and Offensive Cryo 2HKOs with LO Hidden Power Ground, things become worse if Lampent is switching into Cryogonal, like a spinblocker should. Like it or not, Sandslash and Hitmonchan have some niche that makes them usable over Cryo and Kabutops, and I don't see how a D-Rank Ghost beating D-Rank spinners is irrelevant. If we're talking about the low tier Ghost we might as well consider low tier spinners.

But I'm done talking about Dusknoir, it's pretty obvious we won't change opinions.

Im just going to say that hitmonchan actually doesnt have any niche over kabutops, cryogonal, or even sandslash, i was actually thinking of putting hitmonchan in E rank thanks to how bad it is, because ive never seen anyone use hitmonchan to any success since mid BW1.

Also, i also want to say that sandslash can actually beat dusknoir with the right set, max attack SD lum sandslash can reliably beat dusknoir regardless of EV spread as long as you swords dance as it comes in, sandslash can comfortably take any attack dusknoir has to throw at it, while a +2 EQ will always 2hko dusknoir at the very least, with a lum berry protecting the mighty sandslash from a burn. It also beats spiritomb too, lol. I would still never use sandslash over kabutops simply because of how great kabutops is, though. Aqua jet pretty much seals the deal for me!

+2 Lum berry Sandslash Earthquake vs 252/252+ Dusknoir: 656 Atk vs 405 Def & 294 HP (100 Base Power): 175 - 207 (59.52% - 70.41%)

(also, if anyone brings up SR+spin as a niche, that is quite possibly the worst sandslash set you can run, imo.