After facing so many gallade, I would definitely say that thing is Worth the S-rank. Its ability to run so many sets leaving you not knowing what switch in is best, can lead to many many wrong switches. It's power and special bulk and two uncommon weaknesses leave the thing at that front of the pack. I feel maybe a little awry with it being Mid-S rank considering that although its special bulk is great, That physical bulk is just outright bad, but that's somewhat mitigated by the meta being more special than physical. The fact that Spiritomb hard counters both its STABS is also really hard to overlook, while spiritomb has a fun enough time shredding into it with Shadow sneak due to Gallades physical bulk (Lack thereof.) I propose Maybe Low S-rank for gallade's inability to take too many physical hits. I wouldn't be too against him being Mid-S rank though I think that Low-S is a better fit for him
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Lower Tiers The RU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Molk
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I agree with Magnegun and scraftyTheBest Gallade should be at least LOW S RANK. With an amazing 125 attack stat and an amazing STAB combination gallade is capable of running multiple sets that use these amazing traits. Base 80 speed stat isnt great but having a decent priority move in shadow sneak can prevent him for getting revenge killed. Our amazing fighter can use sets going from offensive swords dance to specially defensive. Also it has an amazing coverage having moves in his arsenal such as psycho cut, zen headbutt, close combat, drain punch, swords dance, shadow sneak, will o wisp, wish, all the elemental punches, trick, stone edge, night slash and leaf blade. Apart from its great versatility Gallade counters are rare but the best are spiritomb (trick can cripple it but outside of that galllade can't hit spiritomb hard) and moltres ( Gallade stone edge can KO all variants of moltres even without stealth rocks and it sr are up gallade can 2 OHKO moltres with the combination of zen headbutt and shadow sneak). Sure gallade has his flaws (otherwise i would propose him to be top A rank) such as base 80 speed and having one of the worst 4 move slot syndrome on the history of 5th gen but i think he deserves at least LOW S RANK.
I don't agree with moving Gallade to S Rank. I think it's fine in Top A. I've honestly never had a problem dealing with Gallade. It's definitely really good on the ladder because no one knows how to deal with it, but I don't really think that's a proper measure of Gallade's viability. I also disagree that Gallade's versatility is a good argument for moving it to S Rank. All of the offensive sets are incredibly similar and dealt with by the same threats, all because Gallade has really bad physical bulk. The specially defensive set on its own is no where near S Rank; if that was Gallade's only set, it would be a B Rank Pokemon. I haven't built a team recently that lost to Gallade, so I guess I'll list the mons that could check it because it's a pretty decent list: Specs Slowking, Spiritomb, Emboar, Tangrowth, Rotom, Moltres, Durant, Sigilyph, Swellow, Golurk, and Exeggutor. Pretty much just looked at my first 10 teams on PS and came up with that list, so I'm sure there are way more checks and counters. All of them are undeniably viable checks and counters as well. I guess you can argue some can be beaten with the proper moveset, but Gallade definitely has four-moveslot syndrome which also hinders it. I do think that Gallade is really close to S Rank, which is why I nommed it for Top A a while ago, but honestly there are just way too many (common) checks and counters that keep it from sweeping.
Hmmmmmmmm although i really like Rotom-C as a Pokemon, i wouldn't be totally against moving it down from low S rank to A rank if it gets enough support. Its definitely an incredibly effective Pokemon in the current metagame but it *does* have some flaws that could potentially hold it back from being S Rank. For example, as mentioned before, Rotom-C actually struggles a little bit with coverage, pretty much being limited to its STABs and Hidden Power on the offensive. While this isn't really bad coverage overall, it still leaves Rotom-C open to some common/dangerous/annoying threats such as Amoonguss, Roselia, Sceptile and Lilligant (if no hp fire), Druddigon, Magneton, Ferroseed, and even opposing Rotom-C. While the lawnmower can simply switch out of these Pokemon to grab some momentum, if it either uses a move other than Volt Switch or ends up cornered in a position where it simply can't use Volt Switch to escape (being forced into another coverage move, being the last Pokemon), it can be quite problematic for the Rotom-C user, especially because some of these Pokemon can do serious damage when provided with a free turn (see: Druddigon and Lilligant especially). I'd also agree that while Rotom-C is very good, that it isn't really what i'd call dominating like say Slowking, Druddigon, or Escavalier to an extent. Its a big threat, but i wouldn't say its absolutely metagame defining. So all in all, as someone who uses Rotom-C quite often, i'm not against moving it down just a little bit to like top A rank.
On another note, sorry to get a little off topic, but what does everyone think about moving Carracosta down from Mid B rank to either low B rank or top C rank? Carracosta is a pretty cool Pokemon, but i feel like the combination of strong competition in the form of things like Kabutops and Omastar, along with Carracosta's own individual flaws make a move like this reasonable. The biggest and possibly most important of Carracosta's flaws is it's really, really low Speed stat of base 32, which makes its Shell Smash set quite a bit less effective/scary when you realize that even at +2 it relies on Aqua Jet quite a bit to damage foes, as there are still Pokemon out there that can easily outpace a +2 Carracosta even without a Choice Scarf or anything, and OHKO in return, such as Sceptile, which is quite annnoying. Compare this to Swords Dance Kabutops, who has access to Rapid Spin (Important), a stronger Aqua Jet, and a less risky set up move, and Shell Smash Omastar, who doesn't rely on Aqua Jet because of its ability to simply outpace and KO most faster Pokemon at +2, and has stronger Water-type STAB moves to work with such as Surf and Hydro Pump, and Carracosta's Shell Smash set looks a lot less appealing. As for Carracosta's bulky set, it still recieves quite a bit of competition from Omastar in this role, who loses Solid Rock and Aqua Jet, but is able to set up all three forms of hazards pretty easily and has a higher Special Attack stat to use the dreaded Scald with, leaving Carracosta in the dust. Of course, Carracosta does have a few advantages such as Solid Rock and great physical bulk, but i simply don't feel like i'd end up using the turtle over either Kabutops or Omastar in the current metagame.
EDIT: Speaking of Water/Rock types, i've added Relicanth to untested for the time being after using it a little bit, i think it has some potential to be a cool pokemon, think of it as an odd combination of Kabutops/Omastar and Aggron, with some surprising physical bulk to work with as well!
On another note, sorry to get a little off topic, but what does everyone think about moving Carracosta down from Mid B rank to either low B rank or top C rank? Carracosta is a pretty cool Pokemon, but i feel like the combination of strong competition in the form of things like Kabutops and Omastar, along with Carracosta's own individual flaws make a move like this reasonable. The biggest and possibly most important of Carracosta's flaws is it's really, really low Speed stat of base 32, which makes its Shell Smash set quite a bit less effective/scary when you realize that even at +2 it relies on Aqua Jet quite a bit to damage foes, as there are still Pokemon out there that can easily outpace a +2 Carracosta even without a Choice Scarf or anything, and OHKO in return, such as Sceptile, which is quite annnoying. Compare this to Swords Dance Kabutops, who has access to Rapid Spin (Important), a stronger Aqua Jet, and a less risky set up move, and Shell Smash Omastar, who doesn't rely on Aqua Jet because of its ability to simply outpace and KO most faster Pokemon at +2, and has stronger Water-type STAB moves to work with such as Surf and Hydro Pump, and Carracosta's Shell Smash set looks a lot less appealing. As for Carracosta's bulky set, it still recieves quite a bit of competition from Omastar in this role, who loses Solid Rock and Aqua Jet, but is able to set up all three forms of hazards pretty easily and has a higher Special Attack stat to use the dreaded Scald with, leaving Carracosta in the dust. Of course, Carracosta does have a few advantages such as Solid Rock and great physical bulk, but i simply don't feel like i'd end up using the turtle over either Kabutops or Omastar in the current metagame.
EDIT: Speaking of Water/Rock types, i've added Relicanth to untested for the time being after using it a little bit, i think it has some potential to be a cool pokemon, think of it as an odd combination of Kabutops/Omastar and Aggron, with some surprising physical bulk to work with as well!
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Yeah I'd support dropping Carracosta down tbh. While it's a pretty solid Pokemon, it faces heavy competition from Kabutops and Omastar, which hinders its usefulness. As a sweeper, Kabutops and Omastar are both better because of better Speed, which gives them more potential after a Swords Dance/Shell Smash boost. Omastar also hits much harder than Carracosta and also has better coverage; it also outspeeds Cinccino, Sceptile, and Scolipede after a boost. As far as a support Pokemon, I'd rather use Kabutops, who has Rapid Spin to remove hazards (this is pretty fucking huge), while Omastar has both kinds of Spikes to complement SR and it also has the good physical bulk. I haven't used Carracosta over Kabu/Oma lately, which makes me support this move.
Please drop Sandslash back down to D-Rank; it has very good company in D.
Please drop Sandslash back down to D-Rank; it has very good company in D.
Alright, now that the RU suspect test is finished, its time to make some (rather large) updates!
Of course, the Uxie, Rotom-C, and Carracosta changes aren't permanent if people oppose the moves afterwards, so if you disagree with any of those Pokemon being moved up/down, feel free to post and explain why the Pokemon should be moved somewhere else instead!
Updates said:
Of course, the Uxie, Rotom-C, and Carracosta changes aren't permanent if people oppose the moves afterwards, so if you disagree with any of those Pokemon being moved up/down, feel free to post and explain why the Pokemon should be moved somewhere else instead!
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No problems with what was moved! I also have a several proposals for stuff.
I think Zweilous should be moved to Mid or Top C. I feel as if Low C is too low for Zweilous, because its actually a pretty good Pokemon! Zweilous has a very good typing for RU, with Dragon being one of the best typings to have in the tier, and Dark granting it a STAB Crunch and an overall interesting set of resistances. The biggest one is that it resists or is immune to everything that Slowking typically carries, which means it can easily set up a Substitute right in front of it and get a free switch into it, or just go for the KO with Crunch. Hustle makes it hit rather hard, and Outrage coming off of a Zweilous is nothing short of scary, even with an Eviolite attatched. Speaking of which, said Eviolite actually gives it quite a bit of bulk - more than Druddigon actually, which allows it to take on random HP Ices from opponents more easily, and lets it take advantage of that awesome typing. Superpower is always nice too, geting a OHKO on Aggron and making it not helpless against other Steels. While it definitely has its share of flaws, such as a somewhat dissapointing speed, competition, and a weakness to some common moves like Megahorn and Close Combat, I feel like Zweilous certainly has enough merit to not be stuck in something like Low C.
I think Sigilyph should be moved into Top A. This thing is easily one of the best Pokemon in the tier, capable of performing so many types of sets. The Life Orb set, the CM + 3 Attacks set, and the CM + Flame Orb set are all devastating in their own right, and access to Magic Guard makes it very hard to wear down despite the fact that it is somewhat frail. With access to Psyshock as a STAB, most special walls can actually struggle a bit against it as well, setting it a bit apart, and even with Psychic its great coverage ensures that it . With the ability to easily provide offensive pressure toward the foe without needing to worry as much about being outpredicted and worn down, set up and sweep or power through the foe, destroy stall with its immunity to passive damage, cripple physical attackers while still posing an offensive threat, or just plain being a fast and strong Pokemon, I believe Sigilyph deserves to be amongst the near-best in Top A.
I think Moltres should be moved into Mid A. No argument that Moltres is a big threat in RU, but there are two really big problems with Moltres. Stealth Rock is a big offender... while it always has been, it is very easy to get Stealth Rock onto the field, especially nowadays when Steelix, Rhydon, Druddigon, Uxie, and others boast the ability to consistently get Stealth Rock on the field even if it gets spun away, and providing constant offensive pressure doesn't exactly work in this case. The only "really good" spinner at the moment is Kabutops, and while it is a good pairing with Moltres, pulling off that spin can occasionally be a bit difficult when a lot of Pokemon can put Kabutops under pressure, while Moltres and it share a common Electric weakness. Even then, Moltres's power comes at a Hustle-esque cost, with both of its STAB moves being fairly inaccurate. I tend to find Moltres a bit unreliable at times as a result, because Stealth Rock really puts a damper on also what is otherwise a rather good bulk. No doubt Moltres is a powerful force in the tier, but I think it is a Pokemon that you to support with something rather specific, something a lot of Top A Pokemon don't require, and usually when I want to just put a Fire-type on my team, I'm usually going with Emboar or Entei, since they fit onto spinless teams better usually. Not opposed to it staying in top a though tbh but i think mid a is more fitting...
Finally, I think Rapidash should be moved into Low C or maybe even Top D. Rapidash might be the most suicidal Pokemon I've ever used in my life, and it just not very good in most cases. Rapidash, at most, is going to last 3 turns if you repeatedly use its STAB because it takes away so much of its HP - sometimes its ridiculous actually, with many OHKOs that would otherwise be cool taking away up to 50% (!) of Rapidash's HP, and then you have other factors such as a Stealth Rock weakness, Life Orb recoil (the item is pretty much needed to make it a threat, otherwise it is lacking in power). As a result of this, Rapidash is not something that can be relied upon throughout the match in order to be your prime Fire-type - while Megahorn does get the big hit on Slowking, Emboar's Wild Charge is no pushover for Slowking, as it does quite a bit of damage to it, and Megahorn will not actually kill a Slowking unless you have hazard support. Its speed tier isn't very significant either, considering 105 isn't fast enough to get stuff like Galvantula regardless. it is weaker than Emboar, who can Scarf itself and use its Fighting-typing and Stealth Rock neutrality and Entei has Extremespeed, while both have a much greater HP stat and bulk to make them more durable - it really becomes noticable Rapidash can't take a hit sometimes. Overall, I really don't think Rapidash is very good outside of having Megahorn, and its rank should reflect that its a bit niche.
I think Zweilous should be moved to Mid or Top C. I feel as if Low C is too low for Zweilous, because its actually a pretty good Pokemon! Zweilous has a very good typing for RU, with Dragon being one of the best typings to have in the tier, and Dark granting it a STAB Crunch and an overall interesting set of resistances. The biggest one is that it resists or is immune to everything that Slowking typically carries, which means it can easily set up a Substitute right in front of it and get a free switch into it, or just go for the KO with Crunch. Hustle makes it hit rather hard, and Outrage coming off of a Zweilous is nothing short of scary, even with an Eviolite attatched. Speaking of which, said Eviolite actually gives it quite a bit of bulk - more than Druddigon actually, which allows it to take on random HP Ices from opponents more easily, and lets it take advantage of that awesome typing. Superpower is always nice too, geting a OHKO on Aggron and making it not helpless against other Steels. While it definitely has its share of flaws, such as a somewhat dissapointing speed, competition, and a weakness to some common moves like Megahorn and Close Combat, I feel like Zweilous certainly has enough merit to not be stuck in something like Low C.
I think Sigilyph should be moved into Top A. This thing is easily one of the best Pokemon in the tier, capable of performing so many types of sets. The Life Orb set, the CM + 3 Attacks set, and the CM + Flame Orb set are all devastating in their own right, and access to Magic Guard makes it very hard to wear down despite the fact that it is somewhat frail. With access to Psyshock as a STAB, most special walls can actually struggle a bit against it as well, setting it a bit apart, and even with Psychic its great coverage ensures that it . With the ability to easily provide offensive pressure toward the foe without needing to worry as much about being outpredicted and worn down, set up and sweep or power through the foe, destroy stall with its immunity to passive damage, cripple physical attackers while still posing an offensive threat, or just plain being a fast and strong Pokemon, I believe Sigilyph deserves to be amongst the near-best in Top A.
I think Moltres should be moved into Mid A. No argument that Moltres is a big threat in RU, but there are two really big problems with Moltres. Stealth Rock is a big offender... while it always has been, it is very easy to get Stealth Rock onto the field, especially nowadays when Steelix, Rhydon, Druddigon, Uxie, and others boast the ability to consistently get Stealth Rock on the field even if it gets spun away, and providing constant offensive pressure doesn't exactly work in this case. The only "really good" spinner at the moment is Kabutops, and while it is a good pairing with Moltres, pulling off that spin can occasionally be a bit difficult when a lot of Pokemon can put Kabutops under pressure, while Moltres and it share a common Electric weakness. Even then, Moltres's power comes at a Hustle-esque cost, with both of its STAB moves being fairly inaccurate. I tend to find Moltres a bit unreliable at times as a result, because Stealth Rock really puts a damper on also what is otherwise a rather good bulk. No doubt Moltres is a powerful force in the tier, but I think it is a Pokemon that you to support with something rather specific, something a lot of Top A Pokemon don't require, and usually when I want to just put a Fire-type on my team, I'm usually going with Emboar or Entei, since they fit onto spinless teams better usually. Not opposed to it staying in top a though tbh but i think mid a is more fitting...
Finally, I think Rapidash should be moved into Low C or maybe even Top D. Rapidash might be the most suicidal Pokemon I've ever used in my life, and it just not very good in most cases. Rapidash, at most, is going to last 3 turns if you repeatedly use its STAB because it takes away so much of its HP - sometimes its ridiculous actually, with many OHKOs that would otherwise be cool taking away up to 50% (!) of Rapidash's HP, and then you have other factors such as a Stealth Rock weakness, Life Orb recoil (the item is pretty much needed to make it a threat, otherwise it is lacking in power). As a result of this, Rapidash is not something that can be relied upon throughout the match in order to be your prime Fire-type - while Megahorn does get the big hit on Slowking, Emboar's Wild Charge is no pushover for Slowking, as it does quite a bit of damage to it, and Megahorn will not actually kill a Slowking unless you have hazard support. Its speed tier isn't very significant either, considering 105 isn't fast enough to get stuff like Galvantula regardless. it is weaker than Emboar, who can Scarf itself and use its Fighting-typing and Stealth Rock neutrality and Entei has Extremespeed, while both have a much greater HP stat and bulk to make them more durable - it really becomes noticable Rapidash can't take a hit sometimes. Overall, I really don't think Rapidash is very good outside of having Megahorn, and its rank should reflect that its a bit niche.
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I have two proposals:
Gurdurr is Currently sitting in Mid-C, which I believe is to low for this really cool mon, and it definitely outshines stuff like Kadabra, Duosion, and even Electrivire, so I will propose Gurdurr for High C or Low B, as it is actually really cool in this meta. It has two awesome abilities, guts allowing it to be a makeshift status absorber, or iron fist to give it boosted STAB, priority, and bolt-beam coverage. Payback even allows it to hurt psychic and ghost types looking to get a free switch in on it's STAB. But in all reality it is a great mon, bulky enough to survive hits even without investment beyond HP (with eviolite it has equivalent defenses of 85/136/84 assuming no Def or SpD investment). It can run a bulk up set, which is a huge threat w/ guts and priority, or just an all-out attacker that has really good, iron fist boosted coverage.
Kadabra should probably be moved down to low-C or high-D, being able to get off any hit barring some random multi-hit move, and it also has encore which is really cool with magic gaurd and a base 105 speed. However, Kadabra is really weak, and needs a lot of team support to even get a chance to clean up late game, and it is literally 2hkoed by everything in the tier. 252 SpA Kadabra Signal Beam vs. 252 HP/0 SpD Tangrowth 270-318 (66.83-78.71%)--guaranteed 2HKO. This is really weak, considering only has base 50 SpD. Kadabra can't even switch in barring perfect leech seed prediction, because it is 2HKOed in return. It also faces huge competition from Sigilyph who is actually bulky enough to use a life orb. Don't get me wrong I love Kadabra (it is my favorite mon to use in NU), but it just doesn't have enough power in a bulkier RU meta game I think low C fits it well.
Gurdurr is Currently sitting in Mid-C, which I believe is to low for this really cool mon, and it definitely outshines stuff like Kadabra, Duosion, and even Electrivire, so I will propose Gurdurr for High C or Low B, as it is actually really cool in this meta. It has two awesome abilities, guts allowing it to be a makeshift status absorber, or iron fist to give it boosted STAB, priority, and bolt-beam coverage. Payback even allows it to hurt psychic and ghost types looking to get a free switch in on it's STAB. But in all reality it is a great mon, bulky enough to survive hits even without investment beyond HP (with eviolite it has equivalent defenses of 85/136/84 assuming no Def or SpD investment). It can run a bulk up set, which is a huge threat w/ guts and priority, or just an all-out attacker that has really good, iron fist boosted coverage.
Kadabra should probably be moved down to low-C or high-D, being able to get off any hit barring some random multi-hit move, and it also has encore which is really cool with magic gaurd and a base 105 speed. However, Kadabra is really weak, and needs a lot of team support to even get a chance to clean up late game, and it is literally 2hkoed by everything in the tier. 252 SpA Kadabra Signal Beam vs. 252 HP/0 SpD Tangrowth 270-318 (66.83-78.71%)--guaranteed 2HKO. This is really weak, considering only has base 50 SpD. Kadabra can't even switch in barring perfect leech seed prediction, because it is 2HKOed in return. It also faces huge competition from Sigilyph who is actually bulky enough to use a life orb. Don't get me wrong I love Kadabra (it is my favorite mon to use in NU), but it just doesn't have enough power in a bulkier RU meta game I think low C fits it well.
Alright, i'm going to pitch in my thoughts about two of the proposed Pokemon, possibly more later if i can get my thoughts together.
Zweilous: Hmmmm tbh thinking about it i would be totally fine with moving Zweilous up at the very least to mid C rank (although it seems more like a top to me thinking about it). Zwei often got bashed a bit for its poor accuracy and competition with fellow Dragon Druddigon, but i feel like Zwei has a big enough niche to justify a higher rank than low C. For one thing, Zweilous's extra Dark-type is especially cool, and provides it with a few more resistances to Dark and Ghost to work with, as well as a complete immunity to Psychic-type moves. The Psychic-type immunity is especially important, and allows Zweilous to better check common Pokemon such as Uxie, Mesprit without Ice Beam, Offensive Calm Mind Sigilyph, and Slowking much better than Druddigon ever could (although drudd does alright against the latter admittedly, Zweilous is either resistant or immune to literally everything slowking has to throw at it except for the rare Ice Beam, as mentioned by Swamp Rocket). the extra Dark-type STAB is pretty useful as well, as it means Zweilous is less reliant on locking itself into Outrage to do serious and consistent damage, as it can just use Crunch instead. Outside of the Dark-type, Zweilous's access to Eviolite actually makes it quite a bit bulkier than a Druddigon with the same ev spread, which is really nice, although the lack of Leftovers recovery is annoying. Hustle means Zweilous actually hits a bit harder than a Druddigon holding the same item (read: no draco plate/Life Orb/band), although the accuracy is a real pain. I'm not saying Zweilous is a top tier threat or anything, but i personally think it definitely deserves to be ranked a little higher than low C looking at its positive traits and niches in the current metagame.
Gurdurr: I'd totally agree with moving Gurdurr up a little bit as well, top C seems perfectly reasonable to me after using Gurdurr myself a bit during the hail suspect, although low B rank might be pushing it a little. From personal experience both using and facing Gurdurr i can say one thing: a +1 Gurdurr is really intimidating, especially if you don't have a solid Fighting-type resist that can do significant damage to Gurdurr x_x (i've learned the hard way that Gurdurr can beat Pokemon that resist Fighting-type moves simply by tanking them out, unless they have a powerful, special neutral STAB move or a super effective STAB, its more than bulky enough to do that >.>). After a boost, Gurdurr can take a wide variety of physical attacks very well, only taking 50% max from CB Entei Flare Blitz after a boost and even being able to take jolly CB Braviary Brave Bird from full hp, which is especially impressive given Gurdurr is weak to Flying-type moves. In return, Gurdurr can simply use Drain Punch to get much of its health back while doing serious damage to the opponent, and can use Mach Punch to finish off the opponent even if they end up surviving that. Speaking of Mach Punch, outside of Bulk Up sweeping late game, Gurdurr can provide a decent amount of utility early to mid game with its good bulk and STAB priority, which lets it pick off Pokemon such as Absol, Kabutops, Omastar, Rock Polish Aggron, and Cinccino before they can damage a team beyond repair, which is a nice luxury to have, especially on something so bulky and potentially threatening. Also, despite its significantly lower special bulk compared to its physical bulk, you shouldn't undestimate what kinds of hits it can take on the special side either. For example, Gurdurr can take a Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm from full hp after Stealth Rock damage, and KO in return with the combination of Drain Punch and Mach Punch, with Life Orb recoil and possibly hazards damage added on. In conclusion, i think Gurdurr definitely deserves to be top C rank from my experience with it, and although i'm not too sure on low B rank at the moment because of its slight 4mss, competition from other fighting types etc, its definitely not out of the question for me.
Zweilous: Hmmmm tbh thinking about it i would be totally fine with moving Zweilous up at the very least to mid C rank (although it seems more like a top to me thinking about it). Zwei often got bashed a bit for its poor accuracy and competition with fellow Dragon Druddigon, but i feel like Zwei has a big enough niche to justify a higher rank than low C. For one thing, Zweilous's extra Dark-type is especially cool, and provides it with a few more resistances to Dark and Ghost to work with, as well as a complete immunity to Psychic-type moves. The Psychic-type immunity is especially important, and allows Zweilous to better check common Pokemon such as Uxie, Mesprit without Ice Beam, Offensive Calm Mind Sigilyph, and Slowking much better than Druddigon ever could (although drudd does alright against the latter admittedly, Zweilous is either resistant or immune to literally everything slowking has to throw at it except for the rare Ice Beam, as mentioned by Swamp Rocket). the extra Dark-type STAB is pretty useful as well, as it means Zweilous is less reliant on locking itself into Outrage to do serious and consistent damage, as it can just use Crunch instead. Outside of the Dark-type, Zweilous's access to Eviolite actually makes it quite a bit bulkier than a Druddigon with the same ev spread, which is really nice, although the lack of Leftovers recovery is annoying. Hustle means Zweilous actually hits a bit harder than a Druddigon holding the same item (read: no draco plate/Life Orb/band), although the accuracy is a real pain. I'm not saying Zweilous is a top tier threat or anything, but i personally think it definitely deserves to be ranked a little higher than low C looking at its positive traits and niches in the current metagame.
Gurdurr: I'd totally agree with moving Gurdurr up a little bit as well, top C seems perfectly reasonable to me after using Gurdurr myself a bit during the hail suspect, although low B rank might be pushing it a little. From personal experience both using and facing Gurdurr i can say one thing: a +1 Gurdurr is really intimidating, especially if you don't have a solid Fighting-type resist that can do significant damage to Gurdurr x_x (i've learned the hard way that Gurdurr can beat Pokemon that resist Fighting-type moves simply by tanking them out, unless they have a powerful, special neutral STAB move or a super effective STAB, its more than bulky enough to do that >.>). After a boost, Gurdurr can take a wide variety of physical attacks very well, only taking 50% max from CB Entei Flare Blitz after a boost and even being able to take jolly CB Braviary Brave Bird from full hp, which is especially impressive given Gurdurr is weak to Flying-type moves. In return, Gurdurr can simply use Drain Punch to get much of its health back while doing serious damage to the opponent, and can use Mach Punch to finish off the opponent even if they end up surviving that. Speaking of Mach Punch, outside of Bulk Up sweeping late game, Gurdurr can provide a decent amount of utility early to mid game with its good bulk and STAB priority, which lets it pick off Pokemon such as Absol, Kabutops, Omastar, Rock Polish Aggron, and Cinccino before they can damage a team beyond repair, which is a nice luxury to have, especially on something so bulky and potentially threatening. Also, despite its significantly lower special bulk compared to its physical bulk, you shouldn't undestimate what kinds of hits it can take on the special side either. For example, Gurdurr can take a Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm from full hp after Stealth Rock damage, and KO in return with the combination of Drain Punch and Mach Punch, with Life Orb recoil and possibly hazards damage added on. In conclusion, i think Gurdurr definitely deserves to be top C rank from my experience with it, and although i'm not too sure on low B rank at the moment because of its slight 4mss, competition from other fighting types etc, its definitely not out of the question for me.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 151-178 (40.37 - 47.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 199-235 (53.63 - 63.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 106-126 (28.57 - 33.96%) -- 0.85% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 288-342 (77 - 91.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 220-259 (64.51 - 75.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 118-139 (34.6 - 40.76%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 296-348 (79.14 - 93.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 163-193 (58 - 68.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 88-105 (31.31 - 37.36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 199-235 (53.63 - 63.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 106-126 (28.57 - 33.96%) -- 0.85% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 288-342 (77 - 91.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 220-259 (64.51 - 75.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 118-139 (34.6 - 40.76%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 296-348 (79.14 - 93.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 163-193 (58 - 68.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 88-105 (31.31 - 37.36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
ok yearly complainy post from Aurist. lol
what on earth is Lanturn doing in low B. alongside pokes like Hariyama and Drifblim. that's kind of ridiculous. the thing deserves mid B at the very least, low A at best.
its ability to slot into a huge amount of teams with a lot of different sets, its huge bulk and support capabilities as well as decent offenses, alongside volt switch, an amazing typing with a great ability for it. i think it comfortably fits into a high B slot where other good, but even more flawed than lanturn, supporters/walls lie like Amoonguss, Cryogonal, Musharna, Poliwrath. Lanturn also slots very neatly into the meta in terms of the hits it can take and the support or momentum that it brings to a team. I don't want to sing Lanturn's praises too highly because it's obviously a flawed pokemon in some respects, but seriously that thing needs to be higher lol.
no other particular complaints from me lol. list is looking pretty good.
what on earth is Lanturn doing in low B. alongside pokes like Hariyama and Drifblim. that's kind of ridiculous. the thing deserves mid B at the very least, low A at best.
its ability to slot into a huge amount of teams with a lot of different sets, its huge bulk and support capabilities as well as decent offenses, alongside volt switch, an amazing typing with a great ability for it. i think it comfortably fits into a high B slot where other good, but even more flawed than lanturn, supporters/walls lie like Amoonguss, Cryogonal, Musharna, Poliwrath. Lanturn also slots very neatly into the meta in terms of the hits it can take and the support or momentum that it brings to a team. I don't want to sing Lanturn's praises too highly because it's obviously a flawed pokemon in some respects, but seriously that thing needs to be higher lol.
no other particular complaints from me lol. list is looking pretty good.
I like Lanturn in Low B, iirc I proposed top C for her a while back. She simply is not good enough. She has one good set basically; rain dance. The two most common things in the tier I would say are grass types and Earthquake, both slaughter Lanturn. I'm fine with her sticking in low B though...
Imo Lanturn is fine where it is, it's still nice as a pivot that checks a lot of threats, but physical Fire-types like Entei and Emboar have been running amok in RU and the prevalance of Grass-types like Lanturn and Lilligant to take advantage of its presence doesn't help its case; Lanturn is also incredibly weak so it gets set up on. It has some pretty big flaws, although the support it brings and the typing are still really good, which prevent it from going lower though.
Also Zweilous is super good, just incredibly underrated. I used it recently and I love it. For all the reasons Swamp-Rocket and Dcae mentioned it should move up to at least Top C or even Low/Mid B.
Anyways, here's some proposals of my own.
Fraxure to Mid B. I've been using Fraxure quite a bit lately and it's been doing pretty damn well for me. Fraxure does a nice job at sweeping teams with Taunt+DD, and is a bane to stall teams. Once this thing grabs a DD boost it's pretty hard to stop, and Taunt allows it to set up on Tangrowth and proceed to do a wrecking job with its powerful Outrage. Yeah Druddigon is definitely better as a Dragon in general, but DD giving Fraxure some good Speed gives it a niche of its own. Fraxure is quite good with Outrage+Low Kick so it doesn't have many counters, so it does pretty well. I really find Fraxure to be a pretty solid mon, and although it's not good enough for A by any means, I think it deserves a higher spot on B.
Sandslash to D (any spot). Sandslash is pretty damn mediocre in this metagame, and honestly it's pretty damn terrible. It very rarely gets the chance to pull off a spin; it loses to most of the spinblockers except Spiritomb, and even then, Sandslash's terrible Speed and lack of recovery mean it will be weakened to the point where it's now simply too weak to spin. SD+Lum loses out on a lot of bulk, and Sandslash is pretty weak on HP so it won't survive to spin. You're going to run a support set? Fine. Well now you're completely helpless against any spinblocker, and now you have no chance to spin. It gets like only SR, which a lot of Pokemon do better. It may find itself a spot on some teams, but you're much better off using Kabutops or Cryogonal 95% of the time. The D-Rank definition implies that its Pokemon offer a low reward in comparison to higher ranked Pokemon, and that applies to Sandslash a lot of the time. It has its niches, but there aren't many situations where I'd want to use this.
Also Zweilous is super good, just incredibly underrated. I used it recently and I love it. For all the reasons Swamp-Rocket and Dcae mentioned it should move up to at least Top C or even Low/Mid B.
Anyways, here's some proposals of my own.
K, bear with me as I have been drinking and am also on my phone ;). I believe that lanturn should be mid B as it clearly outclasses most of the mobs in low B, but doesn't stack up against high B mons like steelixc or jynx. In most cases you should be using slowking over lanturn unless you need heal bell/electric immunity/fuck you Moltres mon. As most lanturn sets fave huge competition from king. But resistance to bolt beam, great move pool, and volt switch go a long wy.
Speaking of high B mons, does anyone else feel like cryo is to high? I see it as more of mid B mon, because if I need the spin I would rather use tops or even hitmonchab, who has foresight. Cryo is also shit on by all priority, which is p common in RU.
Moltres should be low S, why was it moved down in he first place? Without rocks this would be auto banned, and RU has the best spinners if any tier.
Gurdurr low B, lgi.
Sandslash to D, out classed and out matched in RU IMO.
Speaking of high B mons, does anyone else feel like cryo is to high? I see it as more of mid B mon, because if I need the spin I would rather use tops or even hitmonchab, who has foresight. Cryo is also shit on by all priority, which is p common in RU.
Moltres should be low S, why was it moved down in he first place? Without rocks this would be auto banned, and RU has the best spinners if any tier.
Gurdurr low B, lgi.
Sandslash to D, out classed and out matched in RU IMO.
Cryo is obviously a way better mon, but if I absolutely need to spin, foresight is more reliable. Sure hitmonchan will be crippled, but who cares if you are running Moltres/Scyther/whatever, and you need the spin. Hitmonchan isn't an awful spinner cause, "Its a waste of potential." If it potentially gets the spin I need (what ghost is OHKOing chan?) then it isn't a waste if potential. Spin chan is regarded as an awful mon (not spinner), cause it cant do anything but spin reliably against ghosts. I'm p sure cryo loses to most spiritomb, the most common spin blocker, js.
Anyways back to cryo itself, if it could run ice beam/recover/spin/haze/toxic it would be great, but dropping either haze or toxic make it a lot less useful. Not to mention, a well played offensive team w/o ghosts can stop it from its main duties (spinning) so easily cause of how frail it is. Mono ice typing is a huge curse for cryo, especially now that hail is gone. Offensive cryo doesn't have nearly enough coverage to be effective, especially since slowing, the most common mon in RU will p much always resist both it's moves, meaning all offensive cryo van do is surprise some ghosts.
Anyways back to cryo itself, if it could run ice beam/recover/spin/haze/toxic it would be great, but dropping either haze or toxic make it a lot less useful. Not to mention, a well played offensive team w/o ghosts can stop it from its main duties (spinning) so easily cause of how frail it is. Mono ice typing is a huge curse for cryo, especially now that hail is gone. Offensive cryo doesn't have nearly enough coverage to be effective, especially since slowing, the most common mon in RU will p much always resist both it's moves, meaning all offensive cryo van do is surprise some ghosts.
icecream said:
Good thing I never said that, lol. I even said spinning chan sucks as a mon, but it can spin.
icecream said:
If tomb is the only spin blocker it can't beat (can it beat dusknoir? I actually don't know) then that's pretty fucking important considering half the ghosts in the tier are spiritomb. Yes it can beat some tomb, if you look at my post I said it loses to most tomb. Priority weakness means it will die to sucker punches and Mach punches before it can spin, we are also evaluating cryo as a complete Pokemon anyways so... Where did I say it wasn't the best defensive spinner in RU, iirc mid b would only leave it below Kabutops as a spinner. As I mentioned, defensive cryo has 4mss all over the place. I mentioned offensive cryo because it is a smogon set, lol, I think that earns it some sort of mention.
The recent tier changes haven't been to kind to cryo, queen left, a huge threat it could deal with, and hail left, a huge threat it could be a part of.
icecream said:
LOL. Honey, I have used both cryo sets relatively recently (unless cryo got better after hail left oO), and I think it should be moved down. For a user named icecream your pretty fucking salty ;).
I want to discuss two things
Well, I hate to sound rude, but obviously without Rocks it would be a lot better. However, being 4x weak to Stealth Rock is a thing that is so major that it drops Pokemon down by several tiers. This is a HUGE flaw that pretty much requires you to have either a Kabutops or Cryogonal or a niche spinner if you want Moltres to be used to its full potential. Already that is a lot of support, especially when you consider that only one of them is actually really good (Kabutops), and the rise of Foul Play Spiritomb is a further annoyance for this spinner. Stealth Rock is also very easy to repeatedly set up thanks to an abundance if bulky setters, so even if you spin it away Moltres isn't exactly safe. The accuracy of Moltres's moves can be kinda annoying too at times, making a 50-50 occur against Slowking in particular if only due to Hurricane's accuracy (assuming you predict the switch in). While it is certainly powerful, a 4x Stealth Rock weakness requiring Rapid Spin support is just too much for a rank with Pokemon that can be thrown onto pretty much any team without very much support. Not an S Rank imo
Your argument that we have good spinners is also contradicted by the fact that your post wanted 2 of the major spinners in tier to drop down...
Kinda wish this nomination would stop happening tbh - not only has this been here ~5 times in one or two months (with 4 of them being by the exact same person), but nothing has really changed ever since it was moved up except Hail being banned. If anything this only helps it, as the main reason I would ever use Sandslash is to cover the weaknesses of Flying-types (rock and electric) and now that Ice STABs aren't a thing outside of Cryogonal this only helps it out. Overrated =/= ultra-terrible, and I still rest by my case that the Pokemon in Top D are worse than it
Well, I hate to sound rude, but obviously without Rocks it would be a lot better. However, being 4x weak to Stealth Rock is a thing that is so major that it drops Pokemon down by several tiers. This is a HUGE flaw that pretty much requires you to have either a Kabutops or Cryogonal or a niche spinner if you want Moltres to be used to its full potential. Already that is a lot of support, especially when you consider that only one of them is actually really good (Kabutops), and the rise of Foul Play Spiritomb is a further annoyance for this spinner. Stealth Rock is also very easy to repeatedly set up thanks to an abundance if bulky setters, so even if you spin it away Moltres isn't exactly safe. The accuracy of Moltres's moves can be kinda annoying too at times, making a 50-50 occur against Slowking in particular if only due to Hurricane's accuracy (assuming you predict the switch in). While it is certainly powerful, a 4x Stealth Rock weakness requiring Rapid Spin support is just too much for a rank with Pokemon that can be thrown onto pretty much any team without very much support. Not an S Rank imo
Your argument that we have good spinners is also contradicted by the fact that your post wanted 2 of the major spinners in tier to drop down...
Kinda wish this nomination would stop happening tbh - not only has this been here ~5 times in one or two months (with 4 of them being by the exact same person), but nothing has really changed ever since it was moved up except Hail being banned. If anything this only helps it, as the main reason I would ever use Sandslash is to cover the weaknesses of Flying-types (rock and electric) and now that Ice STABs aren't a thing outside of Cryogonal this only helps it out. Overrated =/= ultra-terrible, and I still rest by my case that the Pokemon in Top D are worse than it
Icecream said:
Its niche as you have stated is that it is the best defensive rapid spin user in the tier, does that automatically make it worthy of High B? There are plenty of things with a unique niche that are lower than high B in the viability rankings, I mean that's kind of like saying that Natu is the best magic bouncer in the tier so it deserves X ranking. The things you listed that it can spin on that Kabutops can't, are all also spun on by tops, he is faster than them anyways. In reality, you should only be using Cryo as your spinner on full or semi-stall, as in pretty much all other team structures, Kabutops is superior. My point about priority was that Cryo can be forced out by almost any physical mon before it can spin, and if it is forced out once how many times is it realistically going to want to switch into rocks and re-spin. None of the recent tier changes have been positive for cryo, I believe the last mon to drop to RU was durant, and then queen and hail left, its niche has gotten worse. It isn't a queen check anymore, it isn't hail's best spinner anymore, it suffers as a special wall to it's terrible typing, and inability to run toxic and haze on the same set. Of course Cryogonal is a good mon, it walls most special attackers not named Moltres or Magneton, or things using psyshock, but why would you use Cryogonal on any team that is balanced or offensive, when as you said yourself, Kabutops can spin on any ghost. Does Cryogonal perform as well in todays meta as Steelix or Roselia? I don't think so, but it does perform as well as Manectric or Misdreavous, mid B isn't like some shitty tier, I just don't really think it fits in with top B.
As for the passive aggressive thing, I hope you realize that literally every single one of your posts are passive aggressive in some way, and that you are kind of a hypocrite. Your previous post implied that I had never used Cryogonal before, and was all in all extremely condescending.
@Swamp-Rocket, as Icecream said, and I agree with, Kabutops can spin on p much every ghost in the tier, and I hardly qualify sandslash as a major spinner. But here is the thing, even if there are rocks, if Moltres gets a free switch in (after something dies, or predicting a ground type move), then something on their team will die. It also has reliable recovery so you don't have to make risky predictions, as you can roost and get back to full health in one turn, which is really nice considering Moltres has 90/90/85 defenses, which is p good for such an offensive mon. As for the 50/50 vs. Slowking, it is really annoying, I agree that hurricane has shit accuracy, but against offensive Slowking, HP grass is a 2hko after rocks, which is extremely useful, and a whole lot more accurate. Also if you get high rolls, then Hurricane+HP grass is a 2hko after rocks, but that is also luck reliant too :p. Here is the deal though, Moltres is worth all the support it takes for what it gives back, it is bar none, the best wall-breaker in the tier. It has two extremely great offensive STABs, and is an awesome lure for rock/water types who come in to absorb its STAB, and get wrecked by HP grass. Base 90 speed is awesome for a wall-breaker, as it outpaces all of the walls, and even some of the offensive pokes, seeing as RU has become a bulky offensive tier. Moltres is also the best offensive check to Durant and Escavalier in the tier, two extremely threatening mons. Mid A is far to low for Moltres, and I guess I'm not sure why someone would even nominate that, Moltres fits in way better with low S than it does with mid A and probably even more than it does with high A tbh.
edit: I actually could go either way with sandslash, its w/e.
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It's still the best, whereas Cryo isn't the best so...
You could... y'know... kill the rocker and then spin?
Name all the common spin-blockers who are specially-attacking. Rotom. Is Rotom even that common? No. But then you have Spiritomb and Dusknoir (Note: Common, not good) who destroy Cryogonal with Shadow Sneak forcing you out, it just makes it awkward to spin with Cryo. Plus, Cryo is beaten by pretty much all priority except vacuum wave (lol vacuum wave) so it can't switch in on lots of the tier.
They are the most recent, do they have had to have happened in the last week to be counted as recent?
But his physical defense is so bad he barely gets the opportunity to use both recover and Rapid Spin...
What? He was putting forward less reasoning, yes, but that is because Cryogonal's flaws are few but huge.
Also reading between the lines on a forum is a pretty bad idea, just saying.
Icecream said:
Can you read? 1) That wasn't my only argument or even my most important argument (you are the one that keeps bringing up priority) and 2) I never said cryogonal wasn't good.
My main point was that Cryogonal *usually* can't spin on the best ghost in the tier (most important), has horrible defensive typing and physical defense for a support mon (also important), and has pretty bad 4mss (kind of important), but you insist on ignoring all of those. It also has problems taking on psychic type special attackers, Moltres, and Magneton, meaning it isn't the best special wall out there.
Cryo is a pretty decent mon in RU, where the fuck did I say it wasn't, I thought it should drop to mid B, not low C. Spinning on special attackers isn't "another niche" as you put it, rather its only niche (something it does well, I am not denying that).
If you are going to say why would I switch my Cryogonal into
If you want to continue talking about this, can you not make straw-men out of my arguments and then attack those, and address what I actually say? God its like talking to brick wall, except brick walls are probably less dense (<-- that wasn't passive aggressive, that was pretty direct).
Icecream said:
Icecream said:
icecream said:
I mean it was quoted in the above post, lol.
Does being unable to spin on the best ghost in the tier ~75% of the time outweigh being the best defensive spinner in the tier, its definitely something to consider. Also uninvested 95 base SpA with mono ice coverage is not "good", and uninvested base 105 speed misses out on the max neutral base 80s that dominate the tier. I guess I'll let everyone else figure it out, as we probably won't be agreeing anytime soon.
Ok, time to finally weigh in on stuff. Forgive me if I miss something or if my words seem a bit jumbled right now:
Fraxure: Being p. much the best DD user in the tier, this is plausible. That base 117 Attack is really cool and the fact that Rotom-C, Emboar, and Manectric, the 3 big Scarfers that outspeed it after a boost, struggle with hitting it for effective damage adds to this. It has also benefitted greatly from the removal of Hail from RU as it now doesn't have to worry about Scarf Rotom-Fs running around and smacking it with STAB Blizzards. Mid B would be cool.
Sandslash: Ok, this thing should not drop down to any D rank. People want to use it for SR and Rapid Spin which isn't the way to use it. Even though it isn't the best spinner in the tier, it is immune to Electric-type moves and has a Rock-type resistance. This is important due to the fact that it's likely spinning for Fire-, Flying-, and Bug-type Pokemon. All 3 types resist Grass-type moves for Sandslash while Fire-types also resist Ice-type moves. It shouldn't move up, but the defensive synergy it has with the Pokemon it usually spins for is p. cool and something Kabutops and Cryogonal can't really do.
Moltres: The reason Moltres got dropped from Low S was not only its SR weakness, but its absolute need for Rapid Spin support to properly function. The two physical Fire-types, Entei and Emboar, really don't require Spin support (though it's still helpful) while even Magmortar and Typhlosion aren't quite as bad off with their SR weakness. The absolute need for Rapid Spin support is the reason it got dropped from Low S in the first place. Sure, Moltres can use Roost to heal off damage it has taken, but then you can exploit that great offensive potential if you're having to Roost every time you come in because it loses 50% of its HP if SR is on the field when it comes in.
Cryogonal: Hm, Cryo's a mixed bag. While its niche as the best defensive spinner is really good, the fact that it loses to the most common Ghost-type (Spiritomb) ~75% of the time is a pretty big detriment. I think it should drop to Mid B as it has major problems with the most common Ghost-type in the tier. Imo, the fact that it is the best defensive spinner in the tier is the only thing that really keeps it so high.
Fraxure: Being p. much the best DD user in the tier, this is plausible. That base 117 Attack is really cool and the fact that Rotom-C, Emboar, and Manectric, the 3 big Scarfers that outspeed it after a boost, struggle with hitting it for effective damage adds to this. It has also benefitted greatly from the removal of Hail from RU as it now doesn't have to worry about Scarf Rotom-Fs running around and smacking it with STAB Blizzards. Mid B would be cool.
Sandslash: Ok, this thing should not drop down to any D rank. People want to use it for SR and Rapid Spin which isn't the way to use it. Even though it isn't the best spinner in the tier, it is immune to Electric-type moves and has a Rock-type resistance. This is important due to the fact that it's likely spinning for Fire-, Flying-, and Bug-type Pokemon. All 3 types resist Grass-type moves for Sandslash while Fire-types also resist Ice-type moves. It shouldn't move up, but the defensive synergy it has with the Pokemon it usually spins for is p. cool and something Kabutops and Cryogonal can't really do.
Moltres: The reason Moltres got dropped from Low S was not only its SR weakness, but its absolute need for Rapid Spin support to properly function. The two physical Fire-types, Entei and Emboar, really don't require Spin support (though it's still helpful) while even Magmortar and Typhlosion aren't quite as bad off with their SR weakness. The absolute need for Rapid Spin support is the reason it got dropped from Low S in the first place. Sure, Moltres can use Roost to heal off damage it has taken, but then you can exploit that great offensive potential if you're having to Roost every time you come in because it loses 50% of its HP if SR is on the field when it comes in.
Cryogonal: Hm, Cryo's a mixed bag. While its niche as the best defensive spinner is really good, the fact that it loses to the most common Ghost-type (Spiritomb) ~75% of the time is a pretty big detriment. I think it should drop to Mid B as it has major problems with the most common Ghost-type in the tier. Imo, the fact that it is the best defensive spinner in the tier is the only thing that really keeps it so high.
Yeah, Cryogonal unfortunately has the short end of the stick in this metagame, to be honest. I like Cryogonal as a Pokemon, but sadly, I think the metagame is just very unkind to it. The thing is that Pursuit users have been running amok; and defensive Cryo is dead weight against Escavalier since it will beat it, and Cryogonal can't do anything back. Cryogonal is also really hindered by the likes of Scarf Emboar everywhere, and other stuff which scare Cryogonal away. Spiritomb also will beat it unless it's running a special set for some reason, and Cryogonal really stands no chance. I'd say the only reason Cryogonal deserves to be B at worst is because it's the second best Rapid Spinner in the tier and is a staple on stall teams. Mid B.
I also disagree with moving Moltres up, the reasons have been explained well enough already. I haven't used Moltres, and I've always went for a more reliable fire-type like Entei or Emboar. Also while Moltres can roost SR damage away, that leads to a free turn which kills all of your momentum (which is not a good idea). If anything I think it should go down rather than up.
I also disagree with moving Moltres up, the reasons have been explained well enough already. I haven't used Moltres, and I've always went for a more reliable fire-type like Entei or Emboar. Also while Moltres can roost SR damage away, that leads to a free turn which kills all of your momentum (which is not a good idea). If anything I think it should go down rather than up.
I agree with this. Fraxure has access to taunt, which stops pokemon like Spiritomb and Uxie from burning it. In addition, it has low kick to hit the few steel types in the tier that resist its outrage, like Klinklang, Magneton, and Escavalier. Furthermore, the best physical wall in the tier, Tangrowth, can't do anything to stop Fraxure. It can tank the Outrages before Fraxure gets too many boosts, but Power Whip + Hidden Power [Fire] do laughable amounts of damage with Eviolite. Furthermore, as I previously mentioned, Taunt stops it from using sleep powder.
I think Fraxure is very underrated because of how good Druddigon is. The argument can be made that Fraxure is outclassed by Drudd sure, but Fraxure gets moves that would instantly push Drudd into UU if it got them as well. Dragon Dance and Taunt are the key ones, and they help Fraxure set up easily. Its biggest bane before was Hail Spam, lacking the priority Drudd had to hit pokemon like Glaceon with Sucker Punch. However, now that's gone and the only solid check to it is Escavalier. After 2 Dragon Dances and Stealth Rocks, Fraxure can kill Tangrowth. Spiritomb has to win the guessing games with foul plays and WoW. If you pare Fraxure with a Magneton for Escav it can sweep any unprepared team pretty easily.
Also, to cut off the argument before it starts. I understand things like Fake Out + CC Hitmonlee exist, as well as CB Entei, but with Rocks up neither want to switch into a +1 Outrage. I think vs almost every team Fraxure is guaranteed atleast one kill.
I'm not sure if it's deserving of an A rank in any way, or even B +, but I think it is definitely deserving of a Mid B Rank.
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