Lower Tiers The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[TROP]

tl;dr

Most of your calcs prove pretty much nothing:

Because I have nothing better to do, doing the defensive mons first.

It doesn't matter if I can't guarantee those being dead when using a Choice Scarf Emboar, the prior damage might help my other mons to sweep easier in the game. For the regen mons, physical Emboar is not beating mola without a Band Reckless boosted Wild Charge anyway and the damage on Slowking is actually really important because it allows pretty much any pursuit mon to trap it later in the game. And defensive mons walling a Choice Scarf mon proves nothing because their job is to clean late game or revenge kill, not wallbreaking. And all of the mons you listed here lose to band and/or mixed sets and I'm sure Scarf is not the only reason Emboar was promoted to S when his other sets are pretty good too because every other mon in the S ranks has at least 3 viable and good sets.

Offensive mons:

Escavalier 2hkoes like everything we know that. Point is emboar forces it out easily which is enough most of the time and if Emboar gets in to revenge kill (this is what should be happening and none of this Switching directly on Escavalier attacks bullshit when Return can be a safe move to spam). Does Choice Scarf Terrakion being ohkoed by Volcarona at +1 with sun and lo boosted fire blast or taking like 60% from a +0 giga drain out of sand make it a bad check to the moth? No. Same thing applies here.

Bringing Emboar against durant when you can't guarantee revenge killing it is a bad idea unless you somehow know that Durant will miss that turn(it probably will).

^ Same for Absol except for the miss part unless Sucker Punch crit or it is at +2.

How is emboar a shaky check to Sub 3 Attacks Sceptile when i basically force sub 3 attacks to use the unreliable as hell Focus Blast and both of Emboar's stab moves ohko if it doesn't have a sub(this is not that hard in practice). Oh no a 140 bp stab move holding choice specs can 2hko a mon that resists with no investment in its defenses! Seriously this one is probably the worst of the calcs you posted and Focus Blast is still unreliable as hell for this as Sceptile will get forced out most of the time and it wont kill emboar. And the overgrow Leaf Storm is rarely if ever happening in actual battle. Acrobatics ohkoes the pig? Not a big deal because switching on a Sceptile blindly when you don't know its full set is a terrible idea, and if i see it had Acrobatics, i will just use say a Druddigon to take care of that and save the pig for other threats/to clean late game, unboosted SD Sceptile isn't that powerful, and if sceptile tries to dance before using acro emboar will simply outspeed and OHKO.

The Lilligant's calcs are almost as bad as the Sceptile's ones. This is a real scenario and not SEE GUYS IT 2HKOES EASILY NOT A GOOD CHECK:

Lilligant uses sleep powder
Emboar switches in to absorb it/it misses.

If Sleep powder hits:
Lilli has two options: Quiver Dance and hope Sleep talk picks Wild charge or it just switches out because Emboar has a 66% of ohkoing it.

If Sleep Powder misses:
Lilligant is forced out

Lilligant is at +1 and another mon is sleeping:
Lilligant uses whatever and it fails to ohkoes Emboar while Emboar ohkoes easily. And this is worth it most of the time because Lilli should be used late game.

Lilli Quiver dance as Emboar comes in:
Needs to outpredict the opponent and this can end either way so not bothering with this, but Emboar still has superior chances of winning here.

If Lilligant is at +2, depending on its hidden power, only Roselia, Ferroseed, or Amoonguss will be able to save you so that is not Emboar's fault. Idk how you can say Emboar is a poor Lilligant check when she only wins when Sleep Talk picks Wild charge twice lol.

TL;DR: A Choice Scarf mon should not be taking hits at all and it getting defeated by defensive mons mean nothing because those are not the pokemon it should be targeting. What Scarf Emboar should be doing is revenge killing and cleaning stuff late game, which it does excellently.

For the CB and mixed set comment: I don't see why Emboar speed and typing are a problem when they are similar to Nidoqueen's(RIP everyone misses you) and most defensive mons are slower unless the invest a lot in speed which is not really a good idea because the loss of bulk is really noticable sometimes. And except for maybe Magmortar and Moltres (and moltres has to worry about Hurricane's accuracy), all the mons you listed are way easier to beat than Emboar when playing with slower teams.

 

[Molk]

Just going to stop by and say that i totally approve of clearing out B/C rank a little bit since there has been a bit of hype spreading around (i'm kinda guilty of it myself sadly :s), also metagame changes might change up a few forgotten Pokemon's viability that might simply just slip under the radar, so its always good to check this once in a while, especially when some of the Pokemon on the list aren't especially common (swanna scraggy simipour etc).

Anyways i really wouldn't have any problem with implementing any of the changes Silentverse proposed, although i do have some comments on one Pokemon:

Swellow: I'd argue that Swellow genuinely deserves its spot in mid B rank and probably shouldn't be moved down to low B to be honest :s. Swellow has always been a very solid late game cleaner, and while it needs some support to get past the Steel- and Rock-types that wall it i don't really find that support to be very hard to provide and there's no denying that Swellow often finishes the game once it gets going (also note that at least two of the common Steel-types, Escavalier and Durant actually take neutral damage from Brave Bird). While Klinklang is kind of similar to Swellow when it comes to needing checks and counters eliminated, there's a key difference between the two, after Swellow gets the initial guts boost, it can pose an immediate threat at pretty much any time during the match, wheras Klinklang needs to set up everytime it comes in to attempt a sweep, which can be problematic if the opponent pressures Klinklang into not getting this opportunity. As Swamp-Rocket mentioned, one of Swellow's biggest perks is that it actually outspeeds Choice Scarf Emboar, preventing it from being revenge killed by the pig and putting major pressure on teams that rely on it to take out other fast threat. This same amazing Speed stat also means Swellow can function as a secondary revenge killer in and of itself if it can't sweep through the opponent, using its powerful STAB moves to stop potential sweeps, and with all the forced switches a fast Guts Facade and Brave Bird can bring, U-turn comes in handy quite a bit to scout switches, do chip damage, and grab momentum, especially when paired with a Volt Switch user such as Rotom-C or especially Magneton. Of course the combination of Stealth Rock and Toxic Orb damage can wear Swellow down over time while attempting to do this, making keeping Swellow alive a bit annoying, but despite this shortcoming and the need for support i think Swellow is still powerful and dangerous enough to do its fair share of sweeping and earn itself a spot in mid B rank.

 

[Turtleye]

K this will be my first post here.

I'm thinking that Galvantula should be in either Low-A or Mid-A. Galvantula is a great pokemon atm, being able to break through most regenerator cores (It can get a 2HKO on every Regenerator 'mon aside from Specially Defensive Amoonguss) and having good coverage on the tier. It's speed is also high for RU standards, meaning it can outspeed most of the unboosted mons having a base speed lower than 100 unless the run Timid/Jolly and Galv runs Modest.
However, Galvantula's main tric is that it can use a 91% accurate STAB Thunder, which is better than the Thunderbolt that other Electric 'mons need to run in order to be effective. It also has Vswitch to fit in nicely on VolTurn teams, and it's second STAB, Bug Buzz, is a nice thing to hit the Psychic Types running rampant in the tier. And the fact that it has Giga Drain means that most Ground Types aren't ensured of a save switch=in as well.
IMO the only things that stop it from being perfect are the facts that it has problems with Dragons and steel types like Ferroseed and Escavalier, and that it is hazard weak, especially it's weakness to Rocks hurts as they are everywhere now (aside from Rockless OU right now lol) so if the Galvantula user decides to run specs/scarf, it will need a spinner. Also he is cute

So there are my reasons, as I think High-B isn't high enough for the little spider.

 

[C AllStar]

Basically, you mean that you must let something to die in order for Emboar to revenge kill something? A good check implies that the pokemon should be able to switch into one or more of the things it is supposed to check's moves and usually lasts longer than the pokemons it is required to check. Emboar is certainly able to revenge kill many things with a scarf attatched but so does things like scarf Magneton, Sceptile, Aerodactyl and many others. What Emboar has over them is its typing capable to take a hit or two from the pokemon it checks.

The calcs from defensive mons does matter since your opponent isn't trapped by your Emboar. Seriously, who would leave its Escavalier or unboosted Lilligant on Emboar except being a folder? When Emboar tries to revenge something, there are usually pokes in your opponent's team capable on switching to it, making Emboar's revenge killing effort useless while losing health through hazards and recoil. The sweepers Emboar are required to revenge can simply come in later on the match. Worse still, the bulky waters all have forms of recovery, meaning that Emboar had basically done nothing with the move. Sure that scarf Emboar is not supposed to be a wallbreaker, but scarf Emboar cannot even pressurize the opponent and can basically do nothing until the opponent's bulky waters are removed.

For the offensive mons, maybe I'll talk about every pokemon Emboar is about to check again.

Against Escavalier:
Escavalier switches in on things it force out like Cryogonal, the Cryogonal user switches to Emboar, which takes a heavy hit when switching in. Escavalier then switches out to bulky waters, Emboar attacks and switches out the next turn, costing it at least half of its health in the process. Comparing it with Terrakion checking Volcarona in OU is certainly not a good idea since Volcarona's extreme hazard weakness means that checking it once is usually equal to killing it. While scarf Terrakion will never be hit by +1 Volcarona lol since it outspeeds. Unlike Volcarona, Escavalier actually has the bulk and typing to switch in and out throughout the match while Emboar doesn't. Most of the cases are Escavalier lasts longer than Emboar and proceeds to wreck havoc on opposing team. I'm not saying that Emboar is not a check to Escavalier since it actually forces it out and take hazards damage, weakening it to a level that it can be handled by more things on the team. However, you are basically exchanging one pokemon with half pokemon on your opponents team and this shouldn't be great. By the way, I'm not saying Return is a spammable move for Escavalier, but it has the possibility to use it and OHKO Emboar after SR and spikes.

Against Durant:
Yeah, I need to let Durant kill something in order to force it out, which proceeds to come in again to kill something. Your arguments basically consider Emboar as a worse Durant check than mine lol. I'm saying that Emboar can switch in relatively easy on Hone Claws and X-Scissor as well as Iron Head to an extent. Even though it is OHKOed by LO Superpower after rocks, I never say that Emboar isn't a good check to Durant. Unlike Escavalier, Durant has a harder time switching into things due to its horrid special bulk. Emboar usually just needs to check it once or twice before everything can handle it. Not much to argue here.

Against Absol:
Same case of Durant, while Emboar being even safer thanks to free switch in on Sucker Punch and lower power than Durant. Emboar just need to wary about Superpower or being worn down to Night Slash + Sucker Punch's range. Good as a check.

Against Sceptile:
This is where I think your arguements are flawed mainly. On the Sub + 3 attacks set, while Focus Blast can be a flaw on pokemon relying on it, it shouldn't be an argument for something as a check since no one wants a check that only works 50% of the time. The main thing is Emboar reveals its choice locked move after breaking its sub, allowing your opponent to react easily. For the Specs set, seriously, why would you use Emboar as a check when it basically requires you to bring a Sceptile counter to take the Leaf Storm, while Sceptile is switching out the next turn anyway. For the SD set, Emboar is quite a good check as what I've said in the previous post since it forces Sceptile to waste its Flying Gem Acrobatics as well as not letting it to setup SD in order to KO Emboar. However, mixed Acrobatics can also 2HKO Emboar on the switch. Emboar is actually only able to check the SD set well.

Against Lilligant:
To be honest, I think the scenarios you show isn't really the best way to use Lilligant. Honestly, who sets up Lilligant when its checks are still here. You acts like Sleep Powder is a very spammable move on Lilligant rather than a move helping it to set up. Lilligant should not ought for setting up early game when the opposing scarfers, Amoongus, Roselia and stuffs are still alive. Rather, it will better fire off LO Giga Drains and Hidden Powers to weaken it checks. Consider another case where Lilligant forces out things like Tangrowth and sets up QD while Emboar switches in. Assuming that the Emboar is kept fairly healthy during the match, the Emboar user now faces a mindgame. If Lilligant uses Sleep Powder, Emboar can Sleep Talk for 66% chance to beat it. However, Sleep Talk on scarf Emboar is already known by everyone and the opponent may continue QD or uses hp rock instead. In this case, if Sleep Talk is being used, Emboar becomes the best set up bait for Lilligant and basically it is a gg.

To conclude, while usually choice scarf mons shouldn't be taking hits at all, this should not be the case of Emboar since its role involves tanking the hits with its resistance. If not using it like that, things like scarf Magneton has more utility by being able to trap and remove steel types completely. It's inability to pressure opponent's team makes it hard press to deal real damage all over the match and usually requires team support to deal with its numerous checks and counters before doing anything. Revenge killing and cleaning stuffs late game are also done well by stuffs such as scarf Rotom-C. You should be misunderstanding the role of scarf Emboar.

Actually, while CB and Mixed sets aren't half bad, scarf is the main reason that Emboar gets talked about being S rank. The CB set cannot change moves and relies heavily on prediction which goes on both sides. When comparing with Modest Nidoqueen, neutral natured Emboar's lower speed causes it to be slower than Modest Specs Magneton, Adamant Absol, Timid Omastar as well as Jolly Crawdaunt. The first three of them being common threats that can deal heavy damage to Emboar before it can even move. Using wallbreaker sets also sacrifices Emboar's typing advantage since now Absol and Durant can KO it before it acts. Emboar's speed and typing DOES matter when it is being outsped by more than half of the tier and its typing gives it common weaknesses that almost everything faster can hit it with a super effective coverage or at least a neutral STAB move. There are already so many wallbreakers avaliable in RU that Emboar does not stand out when using these two sets. Emboar may mostly net one kill due to surprise value and being forced out by anything faster on opponent's team while being unable to come back again thanks to its damage taken to kill foes as well as having average speed and haven't not that great bulk. Honestly, only stall teams will somewhat have problems with these two Emboar variants while it is usually deadweight against more offensive teams.

Emboar should be in Mid A.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Basically, you mean that you must let something to die in order for Emboar to revenge kill something?

That is literally the definition of revenge killing.

 

[SilentVerse]

Except if you're predicting that a bulky Water that hard walls Emboar is switching in, you can, you know, just double switch into something that takes advantage of them to put the momentum of the match in your favor. It's not like you're FORCED to stay in and Flare Blitz the incredibly obvious Slowking switch in, especially when it's very unlikely that an opponent will keep an unprotected Durant / Escavalier in on Emboar so early in the match. Emboar's utility is not that it's an incredibly offensive threat that donks everything that comes in, its utility is its ability to come in a few times to check lethal sweepers who otherwise have very few checks. Sure, it does nothing to bulky waters, but its not supposed to. What it does is force your opponent to switch out their threat like Durant / Absol / Lilligant / Sceptile, and attempt to find another opportunity to bring them in, which is quite a tricky feat considering how frail those Pokemon are. And, more likely than not, like Emboar itself, they are going to be worn down every time they try to come in from residual damage, so in a sense, forcing them out is really all Emboar needs to do. Honestly, I've never found that Emboar is an insufficient check to any of those Pokemon, since by the time it dies, I usually find that the Pokemon I needed to use Emboar to check are usually weakened enough for my other Pokemon to easily pick off.

You're also severely underestimating how good CB and Mixed Emboar sets are. Yes, they are pretty mediocre against heavy offense, (which I guess the RU ladder seems to think is the only playstyle that exists but whatevs) but against balance, semi-stall, stall, and even bulky offense, they are incredibly potent. The difference between Emboar and other wallbreakers like, say, Moltres or Magmortar, is that it only takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock and has so much better resistances. This allows it to come in multiple times during the match and just keep smacking around slower teams with its ridiculously hard-hitting attacks to put immense pressure on any sort of slow, bulky team. These sets do lack the utility of the Choice Scarf set, but they are still incredibly deadly all the same. To be honest, I can't help but feel that a lot of your arguments are based mostly on theorymon and what you've seen opposing (badly played) Emboars do, not on actual experience against good players.

 

[EonX]

As someone who has a lot of experience using Choice Band and Mixed Emboar (hell, I was the one who wrote the Mixed Emboar that's on-site and CB Emboar is on my Eagle Sparks team) you're underestimating how good those sets are when used properly. While Choice Scarf is definitely Emboar's best set, it's far from its only set. Choice Band Emboar actually hits harder than Entei (marginally, but still) while you could conceivably compare Mixed Emboar to Mixed Blaziken of DPP UU in that it hits just about every common RU wall on their weaker defense stat with its STAB moves alone. Band Emboar actually 2HKOes any non-defensive Slowking with Flare Blitz and the heightened HP investment mitigates recoil damage as well. The mixed set accomplishes the same task, but with Wild Charge instead. Ok, so Emboar is stopped by most bulky Water-types when using a Scarf set. But then again, so is Entei. Hell, Entei is p. much hard countered by Defensive Slowking, but that doesn't make Entei a bad Pokemon does it?

You're also overlooking how great of a sleep absorber Emboar's choiced sets are. The Scarf set outspeeds all common sleep inducers and is still able to function quite nicely. The Band set may not outspeed them all, but it has heightened bulk to take a hit or two if Sleep Talk doesn't pick the move you need at first. Also, it wouldn't be called "revenge killing" if one of your Pokemon didn't go down. You're avenging a teammate getting KOed, hint the name "revenge killer". If you want someone to tell you how surprisingly well CB Emboar can work, just ask Clever what he found out after taking my Eagle Sparks team for a little test run.

 

[Shouting]

I don't play RU that often, but I'm going to put my say on emboar a little bit. Take it with a grain of salt I suppose.

When I think of things I need to revenge kill in RU, I think of Shell Smash Omastar, Rock Polish Aggron, Swellow, Sceptile, Aerodactyl, Accelgor, Klinklang, Dragon Dance Feraligator, Weak Armor Kaputops, Choice Scarf Medicham, Lilligant, Choice Scarf Rotom-C/N, etc.

How many of those does Choice Scarf Emboar actually revenge kill? 3? It outspeeds Sceptile and KOs it. Great.

Lilligant, but Emboar really doesn't "revenge kill" Liligant because it outspeeds it, it just walls it (Grass Gem Petal Dance OHKOs though) so that means that pretty much any Emboar can take on Liligant as long as it has sleep talk and is in good shape.

Accelgor, but again, it outspeeds Emboar, you're just walling it (and I'm sure Life Orb Focus Blast will do a nasty amount)

Again, take it with a grain of salt.

Choice Band Emboar is really just Choice Band Entei in my opinion. Lower Entei's speed, give it better coverage, and a neutrality to Stealth Rock and you get Emboar. Take Emboar, increase it's speed a lot, make it weak to stealth rock, give it priority, take away some coverage moves and you get Entei. Entei is more practical though (n my opinion) since it has priority to hit faster teams with, while still having a lot of power. Emboar's coverage make it a pain to play around if the team is slower though. I think it evens out

 

[Molk]

Time to make some updates, mainly focusing on on the changes silentverse proposed and stuff, might weigh in some other Pokemon later and possibly make a nomination of my own.

Musharna down from top B rank to mid B rank
Magmortar down from top B rank to mid B rank
Misdreavus down from mid B rank to low B rank
Scolipede down from mid B rank to low B rank
Seismitoad down from mid B rank to low B rank
Eelektross down from low B rank to top C rank
Gurdurr down from low B rank to top C rank
Shiftry down from low B rank to top C rank
Haunter down from top C rank to mid C rank
Lickilicky down from top C rank to low C rank
Simipour down from top C rank to top D rank
Cradily down from mid C rank to top D rank (being removed entirely is a possibility)
Muk down from mid C rank to top D rank
Scraggy down from mid C rank to low C rank
Rotom-F down from mid C rank to low C rank
Serperior down from mid C rank to top D rank
Shelgon down from mid C rank to top D rank
Vigoroth down from mid C rank to low C rank
Weezing down from mid C rank to low C rank
Swoobat down from low C rank to top D rank
Rapidash moved down from low C rank to top D rank

Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Emboar
Mesprit
Swellow
Feraligatr
Ludicolo
Cacturne
Swanna
Mr. Mime
Galvantula

remember, none of these changes are permanent, so if you think something was unjustly moved just speak up!

 

[DittoCrow]

I don't play RU that often, but I'm going to put my say on emboar a little bit. Take it with a grain of salt I suppose.

When I think of things I need to revenge kill in RU, I think of Shell Smash Omastar, Rock Polish Aggron, Swellow, Sceptile, Aerodactyl, Accelgor, Klinklang, Dragon Dance Feraligator, Weak Armor Kaputops, Choice Scarf Medicham, Lilligant, Choice Scarf Rotom-C/N, etc.

How many of those does Choice Scarf Emboar actually revenge kill? 3? It outspeeds Sceptile and KOs it. Great.

Lilligant, but Emboar really doesn't "revenge kill" Liligant because it outspeeds it, it just walls it (Grass Gem Petal Dance OHKOs though) so that means that pretty much any Emboar can take on Liligant as long as it has sleep talk and is in good shape.

Accelgor, but again, it outspeeds Emboar, you're just walling it (and I'm sure Life Orb Focus Blast will do a nasty amount)

Again, take it with a grain of salt.

Choice Band Emboar is really just Choice Band Entei in my opinion. Lower Entei's speed, give it better coverage, and a neutrality to Stealth Rock and you get Emboar. Take Emboar, increase it's speed a lot, make it weak to stealth rock, give it priority, take away some coverage moves and you get Entei. Entei is more prtatical though (n my opinion) since it has priority to hit faster teams with, while still having a lot of power. Emboar's coverage make it a pain to play around if the team is slower though. I think it evens out

This doesn't accurately describe Emboar imo. Even in the list of Pokemon you need to revenge kill, Emboar has no business dealing with Feraligatr and Kabutops since they have Aqua Jet, while it checks Accelgor, Klinklang, Rotom-C, and counters Lilligant. The other threats aren't common and don't really matter compared to all of the other things that Emboar kills. Also revenging Sceptile is very important so I don't understand what you were trying to say there. Nevertheless, Emboar is very important because it gives an offensive team a switch-in to Escavalier and Durant who would usually get an auto KO otherwise. The traits you mentioned that differentiate Emboar and Entei are huge as well. Emboar's typing is it's biggest advantage, as it doesn't get KOed by HP Rock and can take many more hits because of its resistance to Bug and SR. You can't really compare the two when Emboar is so different and has a much different role. I hope that clears things up.

Also I don't think Galvantula should be anywhere in A Rank. Regenerator cores usually have Amoonguss now who checks Galvantula so I don't think the fact that it breaks TanKing really matters. Its SR weakness also really hinders it and it's very susceptible to revenge killers like Emboar and Sceptile. I don't think it should be any higher than Top B.

 

[Jaiho]

I would like to argue that Magmortar should be moved back up to Top B. With the standard E-Belt set, it 2HKOs every relevant 'mon in the tier bar Druddigon, Entei, Uxie, and Lanturn without rocks on the field, and with rocks only Lanturn escapes the 100% chance to be 2HKO'ed. If it is packing Life Orb, Lanturn is 2HKO'ed with rocks. There is really nothing that wants to switch into Magmortar, and is a complete nightmare to stall. It also has Vital Spirit, so things like Lilligant, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth can't just throw sleep moves around. Sure it is weak to rocks, and a little slow, but it an extremely potent Pokemon in the tier, and I think Top B is good for it.

 

[Shouting]

This doesn't accurately describe Emboar imo. Even in the list of Pokemon you need to revenge kill, Emboar has no business dealing with Feraligatr and Kabutops since they have Aqua Jet, while it checks Accelgor, Klinklang, Rotom-C, and counters Lilligant. The other threats aren't common and don't really matter compared to all of the other things that Emboar kills. Also revenging Sceptile is very important so I don't understand what you were trying to say there. Nevertheless, Emboar is very important because it gives an offensive team a switch-in to Escavalier and Durant who would usually get an auto KO otherwise. The traits you mentioned that differentiate Emboar and Entei are huge as well. Emboar's typing is it's biggest advantage, as it doesn't get KOed by HP Rock and can take many more hits because of its resistance to Bug and SR. You can't really compare the two when Emboar is so different and has a much different role. I hope that clears things up.

What do you mean Emboar has "no business" dealing with Feraligator or Kabutops? Feraligator and Kabutops are sweepers, and as such need to be revenged killed. A revenge klller should be able to revenge kill and Emboar falls flat when it comes to these two and many others. I don't even think all Dragon Dance Feraligator carry Aqua Jet, but that's besides the point. Choice Scarf Lilligant, Choice Scarf Durant, Choice Scarf Rotom-C, etc. can all revenge kill Feraligator and Kabutops regardless of Aqua Jet. The fact that they have priority doesn't mean they aren't sweepers when you use Emboar.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Klinklang Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 281-331 (77.83 - 91.68%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Cutting it close there. If you used Flare Blitz before this, you'll likely be a gonner. Accelgor and Rotom-C can 2HKO Emboar.

Back to my previous point, Any Emboar checks Liligant, so that's not a perk of Choice Scarf Emboar. Again, Choice Scarf Emboar revenge kills Rotom-C and Accelgor just as well as Choice Band or Mixed...I'm not seeing the appeal of Choice Scarf Emboar outside of outspeeding Sceptile (and anything under)

 

[DittoCrow]

Ok so since Fraxure is a sweeper and Choice Scarf Typhlosion needs to be revenge killed, you shouldn't use Scarf Rotom-C because it can't revenge kill those Pokemon? You're not going to be able to revenge every threat with one Pokemon............... Just like you wouldn't switch Rotom-C into a Band Druddigon or Fraxure, I wouldn't switch an Emboar into Feraligatr or Kabutops.

Back to my previous point, Any Emboar checks Liligant, so that's not a perk of Choice Scarf Emboar.

I don't get your point. Are you saying that Scarf Emboar isn't good? Emboar uses Choice Scarf so it doesn't get outsped by a plethora of threats. I was going to list them all but it literally just includes everything faster than Emboar, up to Swellow.

 

[TROP]

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Klinklang Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 281-331 (77.83 - 91.68%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just wanted to point out that even the subshift gear is able to beat emboar with just sr(it always wins with at least 50% hp left if at least a layer of spikes is up together with Stealth Rock or Emboar takes SR damage twice) by baiting the blitz with a sub to get Emboar in ko range for a +1 Return. Trying to stop Klinklang after it got a boost with Emboar is a bad idea, and even that shouldn't be a problem when a lot of mons in the tier are able to stop that even if it is at +1 (Rotom-n, Golurk, Lanturn, and a lot more). But even if it loses to that that shouldn't be a reason to ignore Scarf Emboar because :

Emboar is very important because it gives an offensive team a switch-in to Escavalier and Durant who would usually get an auto KO otherwise.

These mons are way more threatening than every single mon you mentioned.



And except for Kadabra(and this thing has some issues otherwise) you will never find a revenge killer able to revenge everything at once. I don't see why a fire type failing to revenge water mons that usually carry priority is a problem to justify using scarf emboar.

And outspeeding up to Sceptile is actually really important because that is pretty much everything relevant in the tier except for Swellow, Accelgor(and this guy loses unless HP ground and emboar is at like 50%), and Aerodactyl, i'd actually say Sceptile is a pretty good benchmark for RU scarfmons to aim for.

 

[Nails]

Crawdaunt should be mid b because of how hard it trucks Slowking and its large amount of power both pre-boost and post-boost.

Archeops should be mid-high b because lots of power and utility but mostly power.

Scraggy should be low or mid-b because see what I wrote about Crawdaunt.

All of these pokemon should be in the tier I placed them because they are better than Hariyama.

Also all of the pkmn in mid b should be split into 2-3 groups and all of the groups below them should be slid down a level. Because mid b is enormous.

 

[Shouting]

Ok so since Fraxure is a sweeper and Choice Scarf Typhlosion needs to be revenge killed, you shouldn't use Scarf Rotom-C because it can't revenge kill those Pokemon? You're not going to be able to revenge every threat with one Pokemon............... Just like you wouldn't switch Rotom-C into a Band Druddigon or Fraxure, I wouldn't switch an Emboar into Feraligatr or Kabutops.

Well of course I know that you can't revenge everything with one scarfer, but there are scarfers that definitely perform better than Emboar. For example, Manectric.

It can revenge (off the top of my head): Choice Scarf Medicham, Liligant, Shell Smash Omastar, Aerodactyl, Choice Scarf Typhlosion, +2 (modest) Ludicolo, Choice Scarf Primape, Rock Polish Aggron and Golurk, Accelgor, +1 Kabutops, Feraligator, Fraxure (lacking Eviolite), Swellow, Shell Smash Crustle, +2 Eggy, and I could go on.

Theses are all things that sit above Sceptile, and thus Emboar can't revenge kill (except for Liligant, and Accelgor) and yet Manectric can for the most part, like it may not be able to OHKO Golurk at full health, but it can take out a weakened one, meanwhile Scarf Emboar is literally useless against it

Now I know Manetric and Emboar are completely different, but this shows what a revenge killer should be able to do, outspeed things that actually boost their speed and pose as a significant threat. Are you going to give up revenge killing all of these threats in exchange for a switch in or two on Escaviler and Durant?

 

[SilentVerse]

I don't think you understand why people use Choice Scarf Emboar...

 

[FAJI]

About Galvantula, I think it's fine where it is at Top B. Turtleye forgot to mention how frail Galvantula is, just about any priority will be able to cripple Galvantula to the point where it will be left really low and it would end up dying to hazards. It being frail and weak to Stealth Rocks is a pretty big issue as it reduces it's survivability by a ton and won't have many switch ins especially when you're constantly using Volt Switch and a LO. Pretty much agreeing with Dittocrow here and saying Galvantula is perfectly fine where it is. I'm not saying priority is the only way to get rid of Galvantula but its frailness is definitely is an issue and just doesn't make it a A rank Pokemon.

Just gonna post a couple of calcs on how easy Galvantula is to get rid of with priority:

252 Atk Choice Band Entei (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 0 HP/0 Def Galvantula: 70.82% - 83.63% (68.75% chance to OHKO after Rocks)

252 Atk Druddigon (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Galvantula: 48.75% - 57.65% (2-3 hits to KO)
After SR damage this thing is basically hindered useless after this damage

252 Atk Life Orb Absol (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Galvantula: 100.36% - 118.51% (Guaranteed OHKO)

 

[Shouting]

I don't think you understand why people use Choice Scarf Emboar...

Probably to force out bug types for offensive teams, or even really fast threats / priority that can trouble fast pace teams, but I'm questioning how well it does that considering that Swellow and Aerodactyl outspeeds it, Accelgor outspeeds and 2HKOs with Life Orb Focus Blast, and is beaten by a ton of choice scarf users. Emboar is also weak to Aqua Jet, and Kabutops is one of the most common priority abusers in the tier. It can be OHKO'd by Durant I believe, and I'm sure Escaviler does a lot with Return, so it's not that good of a check. You could say that it scares them out, which it does, but then it's quite easy to wall. Then you could say " Well I'll just double switch! " but that prediction goes the same way... If you think a Slowking is coming in and go to Sceptile or something, what if Escaviler stays in and Megahorns again? The Sceptile is gone. This is were Emboar is really not meant to be a scafer, as Volt Switch or U-turn would remove such a possibility.

And then also as a Sleep Absorber, and I suppose it's good at that, but it's not like it's the only good option for that role. Spiritomb, Magneton, and Entei are good sleep absorbers as well.

 

[SilentVerse]

Ok, well...

I REALLY don't think you understand why people use Choice Scarf Emboar...

After your response, I think this is much more fitting.

 

[Magcargo]

I propose that Escavalier is moved down to Top A-Rank. There is no denying that Escavalier is a dominant threat in RU, but there are three really big problems that it has to deal with: Fire-types, a limited movepool and Magneton. Fire-types are big offenders...while they always have been, many of them have become way more threatening in the current metagame, and when nearly every team is packing a Fire-type, checking Escavalier isn't very difficult. Escavalier's mediocre movepool is another flaw that is coming back to haunt it due to the increased usage of Steel-Types and Qwilfish; Pokemon that can wall it with little difficulty. Magneton's rise in usage certainly isn't helping Escavalier, as it can easily trap and eliminate it with Hidden Power Fire. I'm fine with it remaining in S-Tier, but I feel that High A-tier is more appropriate for it in the current metagame.

I'm very torn on Emboar's placement. From my experience, Emboar has always a solid Pokemon, capable of revenge killing the things it needed to with its Choice Scarf set and was able to break to common walls with its Choice Band set, as well as not restricting my team building by forcing me to run a Rapid Spinner, but my main problem with it is that it can't function against both offensive and Defensive teams at the same time. The Choice Scarf set really struggles against defensive teams due to its average power + being locked into one move, while Choice Band Emboar struggles against offensive teams due to its average typing and bulk. I'm leaning towards moving it down to High A-Rank, but keeping in Low S-Rank isn't such a bad idea due to its many advantages.

EDIT; I really need to learn how to proofread.

 

[Nozzle]

I want to get Skuntank some love and push it for Low-C (maaaybe mid-c but low is fine). Skuntank has an awesome defensive typing being only weak to ground and sucking up Toxic Spikes. It's good speed, okay bulk, okay attack and good support movepool definitely make it worth using on Balance/Bulky Offense. Can trap with Pursuit and play mindgames with Sucker Punch. Has a fast Taunt and has Fire Blast to lure Tangrowth/Steelix.

252+ Atk Dread Plate Skuntank Sucker Punch/Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 144 Def Slowking: 278-330 (70.73 - 83.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

220 SpA Skuntank Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 294-348 (72.77 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

220 SpA Skuntank Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Steelix: 230-272 (64.97 - 76.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Oglemi]

Sv tone down the sass plz, shouting plz stop talking about emboar...

 

[SilentVerse]

Ugh, fine ogles :<

Escavalier: Nah, I disagree with moving this down. Escavalier is just really, really good in this metagame; it's bulky, it hits ridiculously hard, and has a crucial Steel typing that makes it just so easy to fit onto teams and allows it to check so many of the most common threats in the current metagame, like Slowking and Druddigon. Sure, it's vulnerable to Fire-type attacks and random Hidden Powers, but the fact that everything is really running Hidden Power Fire at the moment mainly to ensure it doesn't give Escavalier (and Durant too I guess) a free switch in is really just a testament to how good Escavalier is, and how defining it is for the metagame. Furthermore, it's not even hard to remedy that weakness to Fire-type attacks; my favourite Escavalier set ever probably has to be Occa Berry Escavalier, simply because it means that not even HP Fire is enough to deal with Escavalier a lot of the time (though STAB Fire moves still kill Escava :<). With Occa, not even Specs / Scarf Magneton can trap Escavalier that easily since it lives HP Fire through Occa and can 2HKO Magneton with Megahorn, meaning that non-Eviolite Magneton can actually only trap Escavalier if it comes in without taking any damage. Escavalier is just a really good Pokemon, and I really don't believe that this thing should more down any further; it's just way too good.

Skuntank: Honestly, Skuntank is just an unfortunate case of a Pokemon that's just really really outclassed in RU. Sure, it does have some minor niches (aka Fire Blast and Explosion), but honestly, I don't feel that those are nearly enough to make me consider using it over Absol, Spiritomb, or even Drapion. Absol has a stronger Pursuit, Spiritomb can check a lot of important things while also acting as a decent (ish) trapper, and Drapion is so much faster than Skuntank. It's not a bad Pokemon at all, but then again, a lot of Pokemon in D aren't really bad Pokemon. They just suffer so much competition that oftentimes, using a different Pokemon is a better choice, and I feel that Skuntank fits this description perfectly, so imo it should stay in D.

 

[Cherub Agent]

can we bump lilligant up to at least top A?

it's quite possibly the nastiest setup sweeper to face in RU, and has ways around pretty much all its counters. magneton can trap the steels, it can use hp fire to kill them off itself, and work its way around moltres and scyther with hp rock/stealth rock. of course, sleep powder can just put any counter out of commission, and the fact that so many pokemon run sleep talk just to deal with lilligant show what a dominating force it is in the metagame. and even then those pokemon aren't safe from the grass gem petal dance set. the two most common offensive sleep talkers, emboar and druddigon, don't take petal dance well at all:

+1 252 SpA Grass Gem Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emboar: 276-325 (76.45 - 90.02%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Grass Gem Lilligant Petal Dance vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Druddigon: 213-252 (60.16 - 71.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


and when lilligant is ready to sweep the chances of druddigon/emboar being at full health are pretty much zero. it also just straight up punches through pretty much any specially defensive pokemon. while this super strong lilli is my favourite set, you also have the standard giga drain set that has more utility midgame and can use its stab without having to lock itself in. the scarf set is also really really cool, excellent revenge killer/support mon for sure, and pretty much nobody expects it for some reason :s

yeah lilligant has its counters, like roselia and amoonguss (gothorita ;o) but it's utterly vicious, and belongs at least in top A rank if not up there in S