Pokémon the starters role in the metagame

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Moose V said:
If special Victini were to lose power on its main stab move, lose an insane amount of its movepool, lose its versatility, lose its bulk, and only gain enough speed to outspeed lando and Thundurus-T, would it be OU in a more competitive gen? That's Delphox. It's preposterous not to think it wouldn't be OU and even if it did make the cut by some miracle, it would get outclassed by the lower tier Victini
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To begin with: your premise is flawed based on the fact that there is no OU tier yet.

And outside of that, Delphox still gets calm mind and magician, and it's speed matters beyond just 'oh it outruns the things in-between this speed stat and this speed stat'. And it does have superior special attack which matters beyond just blue flare vs. fire blast. There are reasons to use it in place of Victini.
 
The other thing not to forget about YZard is that Drought Flare Blitz is more powerful than XZard's TC Flare Blitz. Granted you shouldn't use Flare Blitz if you expect your opponent to switch in, say, Blissey, but sending in a physically frail mon with huge SpD on YZard is not necessarily a great idea. YZard's Flare Blitz hits like a truck.
 
Delphox will most likely be UU, end of story. Now let us go back to topic and talk about other starters. IMO the starters are going to have very similar roles as in the last gen, with some going up or down a tier, something like:

Uber - Blaziken, maybe Charizard (cause of ultra-sheer-super-fanboyish overusage) thought in all seriousness it will be OU
OU - Venasaur, Greninja, Serperior (Contrary!) and Blastoise, who will probably become OU's primary spinner
UU - Infernape (OU was already hard for him before), Empoleon, Swampert, Chesnaught, Delphox and Feraligatr, who may even go to OU thanks to sheer force
RU - Emboar, Sceptile, Typhlosion
NU - Meganium, Torterra, Samurrot

Your opinions are welcome.
 
Shadow-XIII said:
Delphox will most likely be UU, end of story. Now let us go back to topic and talk about other starters. IMO the starters are going to have very similar roles as in the last gen, with some going up or down a tier, something like:

Uber - Blaziken, maybe Charizard (cause of ultra-sheer-super-fanboyish overusage) thought in all seriousness it will be OU
OU - Venasaur, Greninja, Serperior (Contrary!) and Blastoise, who will probably become OU's primary spinner
UU - Infernape (OU was already hard for him before), Empoleon, Swampert, Chesnaught, Delphox and Feraligatr, who may even go to OU thanks to sheer force
RU - Emboar, Sceptile, Typhlosion
NU - Meganium, Torterra, Samurrot

Your opinions are welcome.
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I possibly dispute Infernape. With the changes to crit and his ability to run 3 high-crit-ratio moves with fantastic coverage (Stone Edge, Shadow Claw, and Blaze Kick, SE against 8 types, and room for one more move), he could have a role in OU. Especially since critical hits aren't affected by stat boosts from either side.

Also we can't count Empoleon out as he just picked up Defog. I think Chesnaught might be BL.
 
Ok, delphox for NU or whatever you want, just please stop this petty discussion about a mon vs another mon with the same type about what's barely a metagame, it's just a thread derailment
 
Deck Knight said:
The other thing not to forget about YZard is that Drought Flare Blitz is more powerful than XZard's TC Flare Blitz. Granted you shouldn't use Flare Blitz if you expect your opponent to switch in, say, Blissey, but sending in a physically frail mon with huge SpD on YZard is not necessarily a great idea. YZard's Flare Blitz hits like a truck.
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How so? Isn't Tough Claws a 50% boost, like Strong Jaw and Drought itself?
 
Huh I thought Tough Claws was 20-30%. Strong Jaws being 50% would make sense since there are not as many biting moves. There are many more direct contact moves on the other hand. "Tough claws" really sounds like it should only boost claw/slashy attacks......
 
Shadow-XIII said:
Delphox will most likely be UU, end of story. Now let us go back to topic and talk about other starters. IMO the starters are going to have very similar roles as in the last gen, with some going up or down a tier, something like:

Uber - Blaziken, maybe Charizard (cause of ultra-sheer-super-fanboyish overusage) thought in all seriousness it will be OU
OU - Venasaur, Greninja, Serperior (Contrary!) and Blastoise, who will probably become OU's primary spinner
UU - Infernape (OU was already hard for him before), Empoleon, Swampert, Chesnaught, Delphox and Feraligatr, who may even go to OU thanks to sheer force
RU - Emboar, Sceptile, Typhlosion
NU - Meganium, Torterra, Samurrot

Your opinions are welcome.
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I honestly don't see Greninja cutting it in OU. Protean is nice, but it's really not going to help with how limited his movepool is. We probably wouldn't be talking about him at all if it wasn't for the Rapid Spin rumour.

Serperior actually lost Dragon Pulse this generation, so it's down to Normal and Grass moves. Grass is already a mediocre sweeping type.

Empoleon is probably going to make it up to OU thanks to Defog. If Greninja got there off of RS hype, I don't see why Empoleon will be any different.
 
ArdentSun said:
Pretty sure this is irrelevant come December, since you can just trade over a Serperior with DP and then breed it, right?.
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I'm no Breeder, but I'm not sure if it counts as an Egg Move. I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe it'll learn some other coverage moves this generation too. Dazzling Gleam would be an ok substitute.
 
flUddOS said:
I honestly don't see Greninja cutting it in OU. Protean is nice, but it's really not going to help with how limited his movepool is. We probably wouldn't be talking about him at all if it wasn't for the Rapid Spin rumour.

Serperior actually lost Dragon Pulse this generation, so it's down to Normal and Grass moves. Grass is already a mediocre sweeping type.

Empoleon is probably going to make it up to OU thanks to Defog. If Greninja got there off of RS hype, I don't see why Empoleon will be any different.
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Greninja has spikes.

Serperior gets a speed boost whenever sticky web is up.
 
Lovedrive said:
Greninja has spikes.

Serperior gets a speed boost whenever sticky web is up.
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Frosslass was a spin-blocking spike-layer last generation, and still was only BL. Fast, frail Spikes users are sort of mediocre anyways, and only got weaker thanks to Defog/Rapid Spins increased distribution this gen. Suicide-leads in general are worse. I honestly don't think that Greninja will be any better than Infernape - probably worse.

That's a pretty good point in favour of Serperior, but it doesn't change the fact that he's walled by everything.
 
Well let's go through what's NOT going to be OU.

Chesnaught is definitely not going to make it to OU, and will probably see little daylight in UU. The Grass/Fighting typing is horrid and doesn't really compliment itself at all. You're wide open to attacks like Brave Bird and you're one and done.

Delphox is interesting. It's no Victini, but it can definitely get things done. It will be interesting because its Fire/Psychic typing can keep Blaziken in check because Blaziken's traditional set will not be very effective offensively.

Out of the new starters, Greninja is definitely the most promising for OU. Amazing speed and ideal typing, being able to contest against a good chunk of the current OU (now that Steel isn't resistant to Dark anymore). The only problem is that if you want to run entry hazards on him, he'll realistically only be able to set up one layer of Spikes. He's not the best defensively, and he'll drop by the end of the second turn, even if you do play mind games with Protean. So play him with the intent to sweep and you'll get the best results.
 
Oh boy, haven't been on a Pokemon site in the longest!

That said, I had to come in for the comment above. Grass/Fighting...horrid? Wait, what? Breloom says hello, and brings Virizon with him. Grass/Fighting is an excellent combination, both defensively and offensively. He has many key resists in Rock, Ground (EdgeQuake right there), Grass, Dark, Water, Electric. HE has quite a few weaknesses, but for a defensive wall, what it resists is far more important than what it's weak too.

And because it has a 4x weakness...it's bad? Really? How many 4x pokes out there now? Hell, Volcanrona loses half its health to bleedin' Stealth Rock! Not the best example, as it has many other things going...no, no it's a good one. I mean, massive SR weakness, yet still top tier. Celebi also has a few things to say. Not to mention, Brave Bird is a terrible move to use against it, lest you like a faceful of Spikey Shield.


He covers many things offensively as well. I mean, Grass/Fighting hits many things either SE or Neutral. I think that covers everything cept Gengar and Poison. He can even learn EQ/Stone Edge, so there's that.

Not to say this makes him OU, but to say that he "has a 4x weakness, so that's that"...is shortsighted. To call Grass/Fighting a bad combo is silly.

Also, not sure the authenticity of this, but according to this thread in Gamefaqs...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/67530970
Mainly the post made by Golurkcanfly. Seems pretty useful, if true. Perhaps UU/OU useable.
 
sims796 said:
Oh boy, haven't been on a Pokemon site in the longest!

That said, I had to come in for the comment above. Grass/Fighting...horrid? Wait, what? Breloom says hello, and brings Virizon with him. Grass/Fighting is an excellent combination, both defensively and offensively. He has many key resists in Rock, Ground (EdgeQuake right there), Grass, Dark, Water, Electric. HE has quite a few weaknesses, but for a defensive wall, what it resists is far more important than what it's weak too.

And because it has a 4x weakness...it's bad? Really? How many 4x pokes out there now? Hell, Volcanrona loses half its health to bleedin' Stealth Rock! Not the best example, as it has many other things going...no, no it's a good one. I mean, massive SR weakness, yet still top tier. Celebi also has a few things to say. Not to mention, Brave Bird is a terrible move to use against it, lest you like a faceful of Spikey Shield.


He covers many things offensively as well. I mean, Grass/Fighting hits many things either SE or Neutral. I think that covers everything cept Gengar and Poison. He can even learn EQ/Stone Edge, so there's that.

Not to say this makes him OU, but to say that he "has a 4x weakness, so that's that"...is shortsighted. To call Grass/Fighting a bad combo is silly.

Also, not sure the authenticity of this, but according to this thread in Gamefaqs...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/67530970
Mainly the post made by Golurkcanfly. Seems pretty useful, if true. Perhaps UU/OU useable.
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I actually think grass/fighting isn't the most desirable typing, though it certainly isn't awful. Offensively, both its stabs get resisted by poison, flying and bug which means it's going to have to have more to bring to the table. I agree The 4x weakness isn't crippling or anything but it doesn't help either.

Breloom is OU and rightly so because it has spore, technician and very nice attack which means it can get over its shitty coverage because of its raw poer and usability. It is a perfect example of a poke that brings a lot to the table.

The main problem I see with Chesnaught is that it lacks a real "purpose". Looking at its stats, "physical wall" might pop into one's head but its typing doesn't really make it a comprehensive wall even in lower tiers. Bulky attacker works, but it's speed it really crippling and neither the defensive nor offensive capabilities are there for it to take repeated hits and dish out massive damage like, say, Escavalier.

Sure, spiky shield is nice but it's not really a game-changer.

I see a lot of Torterra in Chesnaught; as a grass starter, it has a lot of options but doesn't really excel in any of them. That's just my take. BTW that thread you posted is largely speculation, but bulletproof may actually be useful idk.


Lovedrive loving the sig lol

Aldrius the whole point of this thread is to speculate a starters' role in the metagame. I don't see how "there's no OU yet, you can't call it" is a viable argument. There may be a niche where Fox works over Special Vic but the reasons to use Victini over Delphox vastly outnumber the reasons to use Delphox over Victini. There's no legitimate way you can argue against this.

The only potential I see in the fox is if magician turns out to be very broken. There's not much info so far but if it uses a gem (and loses its item) it won't be able to steal an item on that same turn which is pretty lame. Thus, it pretty much has to run no item at the start of the game to work effectively, which your opponent will notice in team preview and therefore loses any surprise factor it possibly had. Also, I could very easily see this working against Fox as a clever opponent could force Delphox into taking something like black sludge, choice band etc since it can't be selective with the item it takes. Thus, as of right now, I could only see Magician working as a gimmick at best. It's like a worse knock off.
 
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I see Greninja as a parallel to Starmie, where instead of supporting by clearing hazards, it supports by setting them. I don't think he's nearly as threatening as Starmie though because his coverage is ass. However the fact he can rock a LO set with that high of speed and because he has access to U-Turn means he might be a very viable force. That said, the Dark typing is unfortunate, what with the new Fairy type in play. Things like Mawile, Gardevoir, Florges, and Sylveon all wall it to high hell and back.

Delphox is very solid. But not amazing. Too average to stay in OU methinks, though I do like Delphox a lot. His coverage is decent, but nothing special, especially compared to other similar Pokemon. Delphox is likely to be found in the same tier as Houndoom, and Houndoom is licking his lips at that prospect.

Chesnaught seems like he wants to play like a physical Virizion, but without the speed. That's a pretty tall order to attempt to meet, but he'll probably have some nice niche moves with Bulletproof. After all, it might allow him immunity to something like Gengar's Shadow Ball, and if it's possible, Sludge Bomb.


As for the other starters, M.Blaziken craps on everything the moment it gets in safely. The biggest mind game for the mega Charizard forms is that if you're not using a rock type attack move, you're essentially having to predict which mega form is coming, lest your attack be reduced to neutral. MegaVenusaur could be really bulky, but I'm not seeing anything particularly substantial from it. MegaStoise is an amazing anti-spin blocker. No spin blocker wants to try taking on those cannons.

Unless we get new reveals about the other starters, I think everyone else is just going to drop a few notches with the generation shift. Feraligatr is further behind Gyarados' shadow, Typhlosion still only has Eruption over... anything, Meganium is also even further behind everything in terms of defensive grass, Torterra is and has always been solid, but the crippling speed and ice weakness has not changed. If the metagame moves away from ice type moves however, Torterra could be a unique defensive mon. Infernape will wait again to see if Blaziken gets banned and if it doesn't, it'll probably fall to lower usage. Empoleon's always got his Steel/Water niche, Sceptile will most likely still just be decent, and Swampert might not change much. Emboar needs... something. Serperior just has to have Contrary and he's good to... be decent. Samurott needs like... Shell Smash or something crazy. He's just so average.
 
Pentao said:
That said, the Dark typing is unfortunate, what with the new Fairy type in play. Things like Mawile, Gardevoir, Florges, and Sylveon all wall it to high hell and back.
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It bothers me a lot that people keep forgetting about Protean. With Protean, he essentially has no type, it's up to the player what type he will be. Because he is very fast, it is unlikely that you'll be able to punish the Water/Dark typing before he can change it.
 
Moose V said:
I actually think grass/fighting isn't the most desirable typing, though it certainly isn't awful. Offensively, both its stabs get resisted by poison, flying and bug which means it's going to have to have more to bring to the table. I agree The 4x weakness isn't crippling or anything but it doesn't help either.

Breloom is OU and rightly so because it has spore, technician and very nice attack which means it can get over its shitty coverage because of its raw poer and usability. It is a perfect example of a poke that brings a lot to the table.

The main problem I see with Chesnaught is that it lacks a real "purpose". Looking at its stats, "physical wall" might pop into one's head but its typing doesn't really make it a comprehensive wall even in lower tiers. Bulky attacker works, but it's speed it really crippling and neither the defensive nor offensive capabilities are there for it to take repeated hits and dish out massive damage like, say, Escavalier.

Sure, spiky shield is nice but it's not really a game-changer.

I see a lot of Torterra in Chesnaught; as a grass starter, it has a lot of options but doesn't really excel in any of them. That's just my take. BTW that thread you posted is largely speculation, but bulletproof may actually be useful idk.
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I hope your entire post doesn't show up when I quote, that'll be silly.

Well, that was my point with Breloom and Virizon, in that saying that it's worthless purely because of typing is...quite silly, especially that typing. And especially when one doesn't even bother to consider what it may bring to the table.

I mean, on paper, that combo of Grass and Fighting isn't the best, but it is still a pretty good combination nonetheless. What it does hit are bulky waters, Steel, Dark, Ground, & Rock, and can carry Stone Edge for what it doesn't hit. And unlike Torterra, he carries more resists to things it should resist (more weaknesses, but those are mostly special in nature anyway).

Though I agree, and this has been said before, is that like Torterra, he excels at nothing. I mean, he has a recovery move, Leech Seed, Pain Split, for some reason, so he has the tools, but so do many others.
 
I think at this point, it would be prudent to take a look at the starters from a different perspective. Instead of comparing them to tried and true Pokes from last gen, which we've covered in spades already, how about let's compare them to other new Pokemon of the same type introduced this generation.

Delphox: From the Fire perspective, I'd say Delphox has more going for it than Talonflame and Pyroar from all corners, that being stats, move pool, and otherwise. Talonflame's move pool, stats, and, most importantly, ability, make it more suitable to Double Battles than traditional single battles. Its Attack stat is only decent at best; priority Brave Bird/Acrobatics will only do so much to remedy that. As a result, its 4x Stealth Rock weakness and reliance on Life Orb and Brave Bird means it won't last long at all. Indeed, priority Tailwind in doubles saves this thing from obscurity. Pyroar, on the other hand, shares similarities to Delphox in both Special Attack (being slightly weaker) and Speed (being a whopping 2 base points faster), but lacks workable defenses and boosting moves. Pyroar's typing and offensive stats do redeem him from being generally inferior overall, but he probably won't be seen doing much outside of running a Choice set.

As for Psychic types, Meowstic (both male and female) and Malamar all don't hold that much of a candle. They both have generally worse stats, but Malamar has Contrary and female Meowstic has Competitive to take advantage of Sticky Web, Male Meowstic gets some nice support capabilities with Prankster, and all three get the buffed Infiltrator. Overall, though, Delphox will probably be used more due to not having to rely on gimmicks (Malamar) and being a superior Calm Mind user (Meowstic). So Delphox is the best of both of these types introduced this generation.

Now, how about we do a similar discussion with the others to shed a more positive light on these guys?
 
Aldrius said:
In fifth gen. The type charts changed. Bug and Fighting gained a resistance (and a ghost-type buff isn't going to help) and psychic didn't.
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At the moment, only Megavoir and Azumarill (and I guess mayyyybe Megawile? only b/c of huge power i guess) are looking like OU contenders. That by no means looks like a change that will make Fighting/Bug STAB less useful or Psychic STAB more in demand. Also most Fairies are specially defensive which means resist or not the primarily physical Bug and Fighting types aren't going anywhere. It also doesn't necessitate more Poison types in OU, if anything, it just means existing OU poison types (like Gengar, Tentacruel, etc.) will start actually using their Poison STAB.

What is turning out to be much more affecting, type chart wise, is Steel's loss of resistance to Dark and Ghost.

Now, if they made Blissey/Chansey Fairy type... then we'll talk.
 
However, Gardevoir quadresists Fighting instead of just resisting it, which allows it to take physical fighting attacks decently. It won't be 2HKO'd by them unless they are obscenely powerful. But things like Conkeldurr can KO Garde /w Ice Punch anyway, though Garde can choose if it KO's with either Psychic or Moonblast instead of just Psychic, making Dark-types less of a safe switch in.
 
syzygian said:
At the moment, only Megavoir and Azumarill (and I guess mayyyybe Megawile? only b/c of huge power i guess) are looking like OU contenders. That by no means looks like a change that will make Fighting/Bug STAB less useful or Psychic STAB more in demand. Also most Fairies are specially defensive which means resist or not the primarily physical Bug and Fighting types aren't going anywhere. It also doesn't necessitate more Poison types in OU, if anything, it just means existing OU poison types (like Gengar, Tentacruel, etc.) will start actually using their Poison STAB.

What is turning out to be much more affecting, type chart wise, is Steel's loss of resistance to Dark and Ghost.

Now, if they made Blissey/Chansey Fairy type... then we'll talk.
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First off, Togekiss.

Second, more and more will come up until they reach a sort of equilibrium with the dragons. Florges and Sylveon and even Clefable are looking like pretty good clerics, Klefki has nice resists and Prankster Spikes, and Gardevoir looks pretty great even without a Megastone thanks to its vastly improved typing (no longer weak to pursuit or u-turn, super-resists fighting and immune to dragon, lordie).
 
flUddOS said:
I honestly don't see Greninja cutting it in OU. Protean is nice, but it's really not going to help with how limited his movepool is. We probably wouldn't be talking about him at all if it wasn't for the Rapid Spin rumour.

Serperior actually lost Dragon Pulse this generation, so it's down to Normal and Grass moves. Grass is already a mediocre sweeping type.

Empoleon is probably going to make it up to OU thanks to Defog. If Greninja got there off of RS hype, I don't see why Empoleon will be any different.
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Totally forgot about Defog Empoleon. But I think dragon pulse can still be bred onto Serperior. Even if it couldn't, a 140 STAB attack that gives you a +2 every time you use it, is just scary. While its Sp. Attack is, well terrible (75), it has 112 speed (like Delphox, lol) that's enough to outspeed alot of things. Coupled with 95 defenses, should be enough to sustain a hit or two. Oh, and after you've boosted and taken some damage, a +2 or +4 Giga Drain will put you back to full health. IMO definitely OU.
 
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