The testing process: what do we do

Wouldn't murkrow be a little less broken if it couldn't eat Berry Juice with pluck? And I would like to see the reasoning for not starting out with a clean slate because with the introduction of Berry Juice, it is something that I would consider to be worthwhile to do, as it changes the whole game. Maybe the will still be ubers, but it would be with a bigger user base if you tested it this time, not to mention with Berry Juice, so who know what could happen.
 
don't even bother retesting tangela, i doubt many even know how powerful it really is.

yanma/murkrow/meditite are the only real "suspects". lets do these first, then i will post what i think should be tested for actual banning.
 
Don't see the logic in potentially banning even more stuff before we test what's already been banned to see if they're still/actually are broken, as the stuff we end up banning this time around and the things we'd try moving down again might actually balance each other out and create a stable metagame for all we know. However, if we start by banning stuff first and actually do end up banning a few more Pokes, we'd have no way to find out if this is actually the case or not. Thus, it's best to throw together everything that's a suspect, in either direction, first, and then weed out the stuff that's actually broken in that metagame, IMO.
 

Matthew

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Actually, neither of those are the action we're going to take.

Drops will not occur until there is a stable metagame. This means that once Gligar and Misdreavus have been voted on, and there are no more suspects, we will begin testing.

Also, no way in hell are Scyther and Sneasel being tested. Same with Tangela, which OHKOs everything except Munchlax, Berry Juice be damned. Murkrow is the only thing that could possibly be unbanned, but there's a good chance that Berry Juice is broken, in which case Murkrow is still broken as hell.
SDS you do not give any reasoning for Berry Juice to be broken. You just say it will be and that is that. I see no issue, this is pretty much the same scenario when Wobbuffet was starting to be used more in Ubers, and people were frustrated when "There scarfers cannot sweep anymore" (your words not mine). What has made an item 'broken' in the past? It boosts a pokemon's attack stat in someway or another. Berry Juice is open to all pokemon, not settled down to a specific one or two.

However, given jumpluff's latest revelation regarding Berry Juice, it is clear that some testing will be required. Therefore, LC analyses will be delayed while testing can occur.
Right here, you even admit that Berry Juice will need testing. Sure, we don't have to start off with Scyther and Sneasel unbanned, but at least let us play with Tangela and Murkrow to "show how broken it is" to us. If we feel the same way it will be banned. You act like because we've made a decision in the past it means it wasn't faulty. Which is not the case. More testing is better than not.
 
To sum it up, Ubers to OU first before OU to Uber nomination. Nominating Ubers to OU and OU to Ubers at the same time would cause to much chaos and its un organized.
SDS is wrong, this is correct. There's no guarantee that even if we ban Gligar, Misdreavus, Dratini, and whatever else seems broken right now that we will reach a "stable" metagame, whatever that means. Look at the UU process. Every time something gets banned, something new starts screaming "absolutely broken". For example, Crobat was quite powerful but nowhere close to overpowering in the initial UU (with Raikou / Gallade / Staraptor). Then we ban the first five, and suddenly Crobat and Shaymin, two previously "manageable" Pokemon, are now overpowered. Once we ban them, another previously "manageable" Pokemon, Yanmega, is now overpowered and we must ban that. Does anyone think we are going to stop banning Pokemon after Yanmega? What about Roserade? Honchkrow? Mismagius?

The only thing that makes sense is to test it right here, right now. If we wait until several Pokemon are banned, then of course the uber Pokemon will seem too powerful. Imagine testing Latias in OU, but only after we ban Scizor, Tyranitar, and Salamence. After that, you will have weaker Pokemon in ubers than the original ubers, and those will be tested before the other ubers.

Moreover, if you start with the premise that "the metagame is broken, we need to fix it" you will get flawed, biased test results.
 

franky

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I'm still standing on my suggestion with Ubers to OU first. This way you get an efficient way of getting to re-test the Ubers first. A bold nomination for what needs to be tested back in OU. (Meditite, Krow, Yanmgaetc.) and we test it out for a period of time. This way we know which Pokemon meshes well together. We start deciding if those suspects fit in with this system or if they "balance" out this metagame. If they do, they would stay in OU. This "brand new" metagame can now pick out the bad apples from the previous test (which Pokemon suddenly became broken) and we can do new nominations from the OU tier now.
 
Mentioning the 'drop everything down and test everything' plan just shows lack of knowledge on the Little Cup metagame history at all, to be frank. We have already started (and almost completed this test, knowingly or not).

All of the Uber Pokemon have been nomminated, tested, AND banned already, there is no reason to retest them at all. In OU, just because Scizor got Bullet Punch didn't mean Rayquaza and friends were dropped to OU and tested. That's the EXACT situation we have right now, so why are we considering just 'reseting' everything like this is some theorymon'd metagame (like UU was)?

I believe once we finish this 'UU' way of testing and banning Pokemon (it looks like Misdreavus is going to be the next 'suspect'), then we can start dropping down Ubers, which were already tested and banned.

Believe it or not, the metagame we have at the moment is pretty damn stable, so dropping certain Ubers down can probably happen soon-ish, but not yet. That's just IMO.
 
All of the Uber Pokemon have been tested AND banned already, there is no reason to retest them at all, Berry Juice or not. In OU, just because Scizor got Bullet Punch didn't mean Rayquaza and friends were dropped to OU and tested.
Not true. While Bullet Punch Scizor is of course not at all relevant to LC, there were some changes since some of these Pokemon were banned that are relevant. For example, Hypnosis's accuracy has dropped since Yanma was banned, which from what it sounds like was one of the factors that lead to it's banning, is quite a relevant piece of information. It may not be enough to change it's position, but factors such as that are enough to warrant giving it another shot, IMO.

I believe once we finish this 'UU' way of testing and banning Pokemon (it looks like Misdreavus is going to be the next 'suspect'), then we can start dropping down Ubers, which were already tested and banned.
However, then you get into the problem I mentioned in my previous post: the possibility that the Pokemon that are about to possibly wind up banned and those that are being proposed to be moved down actually will be enough to balance each other out, whereas without the combination, the metagame won't be stable enough and one or more of them will wind up banned, and the stable metagame with them all being present never being known. This possibility wouldn't be accounted for by going with more suspect tests before dropping things down. Thus, to be certain we we actually do get the best results possible, dropping down suspects to be retested first and going from that metagame seems to be the best solution, IMO.
 

Matthew

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SDS is wrong, this is correct. There's no guarantee that even if we ban Gligar, Misdreavus, Dratini, and whatever else seems broken right now that we will reach a "stable" metagame, whatever that means. Look at the UU process. Every time something gets banned, something new starts screaming "absolutely broken". For example, Crobat was quite powerful but nowhere close to overpowering in the initial UU (with Raikou / Gallade / Staraptor). Then we ban the first five, and suddenly Crobat and Shaymin, two previously "manageable" Pokemon, are now overpowered. Once we ban them, another previously "manageable" Pokemon, Yanmega, is now overpowered and we must ban that. Does anyone think we are going to stop banning Pokemon after Yanmega? What about Roserade? Honchkrow? Mismagius?

The only thing that makes sense is to test it right here, right now. If we wait until several Pokemon are banned, then of course the uber Pokemon will seem too powerful. Imagine testing Latias in OU, but only after we ban Scizor, Tyranitar, and Salamence. After that, you will have weaker Pokemon in ubers than the original ubers, and those will be tested before the other ubers.

Moreover, if you start with the premise that "the metagame is broken, we need to fix it" you will get flawed, biased test results.
This is 100% correct. If we start out with things that seem "broken", ban them, and then start adding pokemon from the Ubers section, then we will just get the same exact list (most likely). If we drop things from Ubers down to OU, then test we may find out that Yanmega not only counter Missy, but isn't broken itself, eliminating two pokemon. In all honesty this method is the best idea.

Mentioning the 'drop everything down and test everything' plan just shows lack of knowledge on the Little Cup metagame history at all, to be frank. We have already started (and almost completed this test, knowingly or not).
I know the metagame history and of course I know that we banned certain pokemon in D/P. This is now DPP with HGSS move tutors, something that is completely different, and that means that we will need to test the pokemon which we banned at the time, as pokemon may now have easier times stopping them.

All of the Uber Pokemon have been nomminated, tested, AND banned already, there is no reason to retest them at all. In OU, just because Scizor got Bullet Punch didn't mean Rayquaza and friends were dropped to OU and tested. That's the EXACT situation we have right now, so why are we considering just 'reseting' everything like this is some theorymon'd metagame (like UU was)?
Naxte summed this up quite nicely

I believe once we finish this 'UU' way of testing and banning Pokemon (it looks like Misdreavus is going to be the next 'suspect'), then we can start dropping down Ubers, which were already tested and banned.
This seems silly, what if one of the pokemon that is an Uber is not as strong as we thought it was, and counter Misdreavus, I don't see the logic in which you are follow to be honest.
 
Adding bullet punch provides a nerf, it takes a hefty chuck out of ray. I could argue that makes rayquaza checked enough to be tested. I could argue the same but more believably with darkrai.
 

franky

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Yeah I do agree that with new changes (platinun / hg/ss), things needs to be re-tested and quite frankly, people on IRC are a bit eager to see some of the Uber LC in this fresh metagame riddled with brand new sets. I'm farely new but I heard Yanma was banned after 4-5 battles, when it theory Yanma could mesh in this tier with SR being quite common now and priority practically everywhere. With a 60% Hypnosis, this is huge because take it from Milotic, it dropped to UU after Hypnosis' accuracy dropped and little changes like that is something to consider when testing out Uber suspects. I've been told that Hypnosis played a huge card into its success, so this measly 10% drop could let it slip into OU play.
 

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I would like to say officially that I am in favor of testing Meditite and Yanma in the metagame due to the unstable nature of the bans placed on them. However, Murkrow and Tangela, having been tested within relevant metagames and proven to be overwhelmingly Uber, are not up for testing.

Some stats.

When Tangela was in use for the month that it was available after I popularized the Sunny Day set, literally every single team that was on the ladder was running Tangela with a Sunny Day set. This is because there are only two Pokemon that can even hope to stop Tangela: Scarf Psyduck, and only if it switches into Solarbeam or else Tangela will switch to Munchlax and pursuit it to death; and Munchlax, which still receives a 2hko from Solarbeam, and cannot effectively fight back against Tangela's base 115 defense. Nothing in the metagame has changed the fact that there is currently nothing capable of stopping Tangela beyond these two Pokemon, and for this reason, Tangela will not be tested.

As for Murkrow, a common complaint is that it was banned based on its power pre-platinum, and that the platinum tutors may have added checks to it. This is patently false. The final tipping point for Murkrow's final decision to be moved to the Uber tier was Platinum's addition of Heat Wave to its movepool. Murkrow's ban went into effect with all of the changes from Platinum taken into account, and as such, the ban still falls within the realm of a "relevant metagame."

As for Yanma and Meditite, the community was extremely small at that point, without anything like the Little Cup Forum, and they were banned on theory without any viable testing period, and without being retested after Platinum. Those two should definitely be moved down. I also support a retest of DeepSeaTooth Clamperl, and while I believe that DeepSeaTooth will remain Uber, I will not stand in the way of a retest.
 
@ Gen and Co.

It seems like some of you guys are confused with the process that is currently being used for UU, or just confused about what constitutes a ban. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but...

Let me explain what's happened in UU and LC until now (simplified greatly).

Step 1: Play for a while with non suspects - find suspects - nominate them and vote on them.
Step 2: Repeat until there is few / a very low amount of suspects left.

So UU banned the original BLs, then kept going. You don't unban something just to balance the metagame out, because it is still broken. For example, we didnt get Raikou to come back just because Crobat was getting out of hand. We didn't get Crobat to comeback because Yanmega and Shaymin were out of hand. So, we can't just drop some Ubers to "balance out our suspects". That's just not how the process works, and what you are suggesting is completely illogical and I don't need to tell you that it won't work.

A broken Pokemon is BROKEN, and banned only for that reason. Saying it "balances Pokemon X out" doesn't make it any less broken, sorry. If you need to drop an uber into a metagame to balance Pokemon X out, then Pokemon X is broken. That's how it is. So regardless of the changes that have been made (yes I know Hypnosis is bad now), we need to test the current metagame as it is. Hitting a 'reset' button is quite counterproductive, and will just make our test much less fruitful.

Dropping Ubers down should happen after we decide whats happening with Missy, if it's broken or not. Then if both of Meditite / Yanma are allowed back in LC, we can always drop missy (if its deemed Uber) back down and test. That's the beauty of this process.

EDIT: and I don't want to have to bring it up, but with two teams in the top 10 (and one team being first), I can tell you that the metagame didn't change 'that much', it just added a couple more viable Pokemon. I don't like reading things like "This is now DPP with HGSS move tutors, something that is completely different, and that means that we will need to test the pokemon which we banned at the time, as pokemon may now have easier times stopping them." from someone who I have never seen on the ladder / play a game in my whole ladder career. Not to mention after you have played the metagame a fair bit, you realize how little HGSS actually did (not that it didn't change anything, just not 'much'). No offense, really, I just felt you should know it isn't a huge difference before you continue this debate.
 
So UU banned the original BLs, then kept going. You don't unban something just to balance the metagame out, because it is still broken. For example, we didnt get Raikou to come back just because Crobat was getting out of hand. We didn't get Crobat to comeback because Yanmega and Shaymin were out of hand. So, we can't just drop some Ubers to "balance out our suspects". That's just not how the process works, and what you are suggesting is completely illogical and I don't need to tell you that it won't work.
'Course not. If that was the only reason for something to bring down something from Ubers and try it again, there would basically be no case for it, and things would be left as they are. However, there are reasonings that some of the things that are currently banned may no longer be so broken as compared to the time of their banning, such as Hypnosis's accuracy having decreased, and things of that nature. It is due to this that it is felt that certain Pokemon should be retested.

Beyond that though, retesting has another potential benefit. Let's say, for example, that the changes that have occurred since it's banning have indeed been enough to no longer make Yanma quite so broken, and it's LC OU material.

Now, for the purposes of example (I'm of course not saying this is true at all or anything; the following is a what-if to get my point across, and nothing more, and I'm not trying to say this particular scenario is in any way feasible or anything but use it as a means to convey my point), let's shift the focus
to another suspect, but one in the opposite direction: Misdreavus. Right now, NP Missy is looking quite broken. However, let's now say that Yanma and oh say Murkrow are thrown downwards before any decisions on Missy are reached, and both are now looking to fit in just fine into the LC OU metagame without any real problems. In addition to this though, the changes Yanma and Murkrow brought to the metagame when they were re-introduced, along with their own merits, seems to have been enough to balance out Missy and it's no longer really giving anyone too much trouble. Thus, Missy, Murkrow, and Yanma all get to stick around.

However, going with the same scenario, if we followed the method of "test the new suspects first, then drop Ubers down", Misdreavus would wind up being banned due to being broken in the current metagame. Yanma and Murkrow would still most like wind up being dropped down just fine in that scenario, but because Missy was banned prior to testing it in conjunction with Yanma and Murkrow, it's just thought of as being broken by all and the fact that if it were simply dropped down again is not known. Now, Misdreavus may of course be proposed to be moved down after this in the next test in consideration of how the Yanma and Murkrow tests went, but this would be done in a second test, which wouldn't have even been needed had it just been tested in conjunction with Yanma and Murkrow, the re-test candidates, in the first place, making such a process way more time-consuming than it needs to be.

Of course, whether one or two retest candidates may be able to have enough of an effect to create such a difference may not be the most common thing to occur, but it is possible, especially when it's a very close call on the suspect's status, with it really walking the line. Thus, just to make sure and also in the interest of test-efficiency, test-productivity, killing multiple birds with one stone, etc, dropping down the potential retest candidates first and going from there seems to be the preferable and more logical choice, IMO.

To sum this all up: A Pokemon is proposed to move down from Ubers when it is believed that there has been a significant enough change in the metagame since it's banning that it could potentially no longer be broken in standard play. When this is done, it is done to see whether that Pokemon is broken in the current metagame, at whatever stage or form it's at at the time. The effect of it balancing out any current potential suspects in the Standard metagame is just a bonus to this should it occur, and not the main goal. It's just a bonus, which allows the process to go more smoothly and streamlined, cutting out the need for potential extra tests as compared to the other method, should it occur. The main focus though is still seeing if the Pokemon up for being retested are still broken or not; if they are still broken, oh well, send 'em back, but if not, that's great, especially if it works out that they end up keeping other things in line too. That's the reasoning for this method.
 
Now, for the purposes of example (I'm of course not saying this is true at all or anything; the following is a what-if to get my point across, and nothing more, and I'm not trying to say this particular scenario is in any way feasible or anything but use it as a means to convey my point), let's shift the focus
to another suspect, but one in the opposite direction: Misdreavus. Right now, NP Missy is looking quite broken. However, let's now say that Yanma and oh say Murkrow are thrown downwards before any decisions on Missy are reached, and both are now looking to fit in just fine into the LC OU metagame without any real problems. In addition to this though, the changes Yanma and Murkrow brought to the metagame when they were re-introduced, along with their own merits, seems to have been enough to balance out Missy and it's no longer really giving anyone too much trouble. Thus, Missy, Murkrow, and Yanma all get to stick around.
You missed the part where Murkrow and Yanma are still broken, and are sent back to Uber. As I said before: it doesn't make them unbroken because they help balance a suspect. And as you said yourself, "there wouldn't be a case otherwise", so why are you arguing?

Murkrow and Yanma are BOTH deemed Uber already with next to no durastic changes. If they got significantly nerfed (Murkrow actually got buffed with Brave Bird, and Yanma got stealth-buffed with the removal of Murkrow and meditite), then maybe you would have a case to test them before Missy (who is the actual suspect that should be tested next). But...you don't, the metagame has not changed that much at all except arguably in their favor.

Now we have Missy who there is an actual case for. That's who we should be testing. Missy being broken should have little to do with the Ubers coming in.

Lets take one quick look at the major changes that would affect Yanma, Meditite, and Murkrow one last (seriously, I hope this is the last) time so that we realize there is no need for them to be re-tested until the metagame is stabilized:

Yanma
-
Hypnosis accuracy lowered to 60%.
- Murkrow (a revenge killer) banned.
- Meditite (a revenge killer) banned.
Meditite
- Murkrow (counter) banned.
- Can learn ZHB.
Murkrow
-
Got Brave Bird.

Red=Bad.
Black=Good.

Please tell me if there is anything big I've missed, because it really seems to me like none of these Pokemon got weaker at all. In fact, most of them got better. Logically, something that was deemed Uber that has gotten better =/= needs to be tested for OU.

Testing the current metagame should be our main priority, then retesting can come shortly after (like, you know, every other testing process that smogon has done....).
 
You missed the part where Murkrow and Yanma are still broken, and are sent back to Uber. As I said before: it doesn't make them unbroken because they help balance a suspect. And as you said yourself, "there wouldn't be a case otherwise", so why are you arguing?
You missed the part where I clearly said that was just an example I was using to make my point... And you also missed the part where I was working under the assumption that they were sent down and found to be not Uber in the retest. Again, them making other suspects unbroken is just a bonus (something else I made sure to make clear in that post, which you seem to have skipped over) and is not the reason for moving them down; the main goal is to test them in the standard metagame and see how they react with the changes since their original banning.
 
You missed the part where I clearly said that was just an example I was using to make my point... And you also missed the part where I was working under the assumption that they were sent down and found to be not Uber in the retest.
I understood that. Of course I'm aware that you can make up a fake scenario where you would be correct about something. You are still missing the reasoning behind dropping these Ubers down. Why are they less Uber than before? That's what you would need to suggest in this argument, not make up fake scenarios that could occur if they were both deemed unUber for no particular reason.

Again, them making other suspects unbroken is just a bonus (something else I made sure to make clear in that post, which you seem to have skipped over) and is not the reason for moving them down; the main goal is to test them in the standard metagame and see how they react with the changes since their original banning.
Please, again, back your argument up with what's changed for them? You keep saying "the changed metagame", so tell us, please, what are these changes? Right now all I see is:
Heysup said:
Yanma
-
Hypnosis accuracy lowered to 60%.
- Murkrow (a revenge killer) banned.
- Meditite (a revenge killer) banned.
Meditite
- Murkrow (counter) banned.
- Can learn ZHB.
Murkrow
-
Got Brave Bird.
This discussion should be over unless you have something relevant to add to this list.
 
My main problem though is that you agree that a retest for things like Yanma may be fine nontheless, from what I'm gathering (though you didn't bring it up this post, from your other posts, that seems to be what you are saying)--you just feel that it should be done after we deal with the current suspects like Missy and Gligar. My point is, if we're going to drop down things like Yanma for retesting anyway, why not do that first, to see not only if things like Yanma are still broken, but to also see if, if they aren't broken anymore, that they could also help balance out things like Missy and Gligar as well?

If Yanma's going to end up retested either way, why not just do that first? Otherwise, if we don't, we could end up with a scenario just like the one I described, where Missy and Gligar end up banned, then Yanma and Meditite end up dropping down and are found to be not broken after that. Then another test is required to retest Missy and Gligar to see if the presence of the now non-broken Yanma and Meditite is enough to balance it out, whereas if we just dropped down Meditite and Yanma first, that latter test isn't needed at all.

So, if we're going to drop down things like Yanma either way for retesting (which it sounds like you don't disagree with; you just don't want it done first for some reason that isn't exactly clear to me since you keep focusing on how things apparently have changed enough at all for them to be retested prior to saying that), then I'd just prefer going with a method that would minimize that amounts of tests needed; that's all I'm saying.

Or rather, to try and make this more clear: Whether it's Yanma, or Meditite, or whatever is irrelevant here, at the current point. We're talking about a general policy to be continued to be followed for the process of testing. Yanma and Meditite might not be likely to change too much should they dropped down (in terms of Gligar and Missy), but in the future there might be some suspect(s) that we consider bringing down that will. Thus, the method of testing I'm getting behind: to be prepared for such a scenario. It might not be too relevant this time around, but it's still possible, and it's best to make sure. Thus, going with the process of dropping down re-test candidates first and going from there. It seems to be the most time-efficient and effective method to me, and thus I'm not getting why we shouldn't go for it.

In other words, let's ignore Yanma and Meditite for now and just focus on whether or not we should drop down potential suspects for retesting first, or testing new suspects first. That's what we have to establish first. Once we've done that, we can move onto particulars, but not before. Thus, let's focus on the process. For the reasons I've already made clear, I feel that dropping down the retest candidates first is the more effective testing method. Now, without focusing or mentioning the current suspects, as we aren't to that point yet, which method in general do you feel to be more effective and why?

For me, it's the retest first method, due to that potentially eliminating extra tests needed in the other method, which makes retesting certain suspects the more time-effective and efficient method. Are there any advantages that the testing of current suspects first before retesting already decided ones, and if so, what are they, because I'm not seeing the pros over retesting the current suspects first. That's what I'm trying to get to here.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Like I said, there's a reason the Suspect Test is performed using a clean slate. UU is only done the way was for the BL Drop because of the overwhelming number of suspects dropped from BL. When we have a MUCH smaller pool, we can afford to do testing similar to the OU suspect test, which is my intention. And in order to do that, we need a baseline metagame, i.e. the one without any suspects. To that end, we shall determine that by determining tiering on Gligar and Misdreavus before addressing any of the Ubers to be dropped.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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As a general policy I would agree with Naxte, Gen. and umbarsc that testing Ubers>OU is better and more efficient, however in this situation testing Pokemon who are causing trouble in the metagame right now is a higher priority.

If the Ubers we may bring down were clearly effective against the current suspects my opinion may be different, but take a little look at if the Ubers that may be retested would make Missy less powerful (Gligar is actually one of the best counters/switches to most of these Ubers).

Murkrow can't safely switch in (taking ~50% from LO Shadow Ball, or non LO HP Fighting), and is forced into a prediction war which both sides have major problems with. An unreliable check.

Medi can do massive damage with psychic STAB moves, but its more powerful Fighting STAB (quite probably Choiced) provides even more free switches for NPMissy. Can't switch in safely, looses to Salac sets, can revenge Missy without a salac boost or sub up reasonably well (barring Shadow Sneak of course).

Claperl.. well even with Deapseascale it is 2KOd by LONP Shadow Ball, so without its in serious trouble. Tooth Clamp could do something to Missy before a boost, but switching in is suicidal.

Yanma has to use Air Slash (or something like HP Dark) to hurt missy (unless it goes for Hypnosis), and even then Air Slash is usually not a 2KO against min/min Missy. Shadow Ball does ~68% in return, after a NP an easy 1KO. Yanma can revenge kill a weak missy at the cost of most of its HP, but not switch in comfortably at all.

Also, I disagree that testing the OU's first is to establish a baseline/suspectless metagame, there is no such thing. Its simply a good idea because the Pokemon that have been banned have had some testing (may not enough but rumours of how little they got have been exaggerated), and currently there are Pokemon in LC-OU that many players feel are broken. Leaving them there while we test several Pokemon that have already had a test and been determined broken, and from what I can see do not weaken the LC-OU suspects significantly is not a good idea in this case.
 
I think generally, we use testing as an argument against speculation, not the other way around.

"Oh there's no need to test Rhyperior in UU. It has 140 Base Attack, which is more than Garchomp, which is banned from OU. It reaches a Speed of 392 after a Rock Polish, which outspeeds the fastest Pokemon in the tier. It gets perfect coverage with just 3 attacks. With a Choice Band, it 2HKOs literally the entire tier. Defensively, not only does it have 5 resistances and an immunity, it has Solid Rock, which makes it very hard to OHKO, 130 Base Defense, and you can boost its SpD by 1.5 with Sandstorm to make it extremely sturdy both physically and specially. It forces every single team to carry Milotic, and if Milotic gets weakened just a little bit Rhyperior could easily take it out and then you're fucked. No need to test it in UU imo."

Murkrow can't safely switch in (taking ~50% from LO Shadow Ball, or non LO HP Fighting), and is forced into a prediction war which both sides have major problems with. An unreliable check.
Then Misdreavus gets it ass Pursuited. It's baffling how you could argue that Murkrow wouldn't limit Misdreavus' power, because it clearly does. I don't understand where this prediction war is, because unless I'm mistaken Murkrow is faster. And even if it's a Speed tie the encounter is still 100% more dangerous for Misdreavus than Murkrow.

I'm not going to argue against the other points, but I will say that we have no way of knowing until we test them. That reasoning may seem plausible at the time, but we simply have no ways of knowing until we try, and it could be a lot more subtle than "it can't switch in without taking a lot of damage".

In short, we don't test because we have expectations of anything, we test because we don't.
 
Then Misdreavus gets it ass Pursuited. It's baffling how you could argue that Murkrow wouldn't limit Misdreavus' power, because it clearly does. I don't understand where this prediction war is, because unless I'm mistaken Murkrow is faster. And even if it's a Speed tie the encounter is still 100% more dangerous for Misdreavus than Murkrow.
Most Murkrow didn't carry Pursuit and went Sucker Punch/Dark Pulse/Pluck/HP Fighting or Sub or whatever depending on their team. Both tie at 19 speed. Murkrow is the same speed as Misdreavus which assuming Murkrow is hit for 50% on the switch as eric said leaves the following scenarios:

a) Misdreavus attacks and wins speed tie, KOs
b) Murkrow Sucker Punches whilst Misdreavus attacks and KOs
c) Misdreavus uses Subsitute whilst Murkrow Sucker Punches, and KOs next turn
d) Murkrow uses Dark Pulse and whilst Murkrow uses sub and wins speed tie, KOs
e) Misdreavus uses sub and wins speed tie, Murkrow uses Dark Pulse, stalemate.

Murkrow is a very shaky counter to Misdreavus in a one-off scenario.
 

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Okay, I'm just going to say how I see this going.

Step 1: Test Berry Juice.

Step 2a: If Berry Juice is not broken, then we drop Murkrow, Yanma, and Meditite in for testing, considering that Berry Juice impacts whether or not Gligar and Misdreavus would be broken under current conditions. We then test based on that metagame.

Step 3a: From step 2a, we will take a course similar to how UU is playing out currently, in which suspects are nominated and banned in each round.

Step 2b: If Berry Juice is deemed broken and is therefore banned, testing will proceed in a method similar to the testing of Pokemon in OU. Gligar and Misdreavus will be tested, and based on that test, we will have a baseline metagame in which to test the rest of the metagame against.

Step 3b: From step 2b, we will then test Yanma and Meditite in respect to the suspect-free baseline metagame in order to determine how balanced they are given standard battling conditions.

Step 4b: From step 3b, as soon as testing is completed regarding all suspects, we'll throw them all together similar to Stage 3, in order to see how they play with respect to one another. This may or may not change the final tiering decision of the suspect Pokemon.
 
Naxte, Umbarsc, etc. :

Like I said, there's a reason the Suspect Test is performed using a clean slate. UU is only done the way was for the BL Drop because of the overwhelming number of suspects dropped from BL. When we have a MUCH smaller pool, we can afford to do testing similar to the OU suspect test, which is my intention. And in order to do that, we need a baseline metagame, i.e. the one without any suspects. To that end, we shall determine that by determining tiering on Gligar and Misdreavus before addressing any of the Ubers to be dropped.
This is what I've been saying, we don't have a reason to immediately test Ubers in an unstable Metagame (risking completely flawed results...). So, we can simply test them in a metagame with a clean slate, so that the results aren't flawed. I'm honestly so surprised people are so willing to compromise testing results just because they want to use Yanma, Meditite, and Murkrow...

Okay, I'm just going to say how I see this going.

Step 1: Test Berry Juice.

Step 2a: If Berry Juice is not broken, then we drop Murkrow, Yanma, and Meditite in for testing, considering that Berry Juice impacts whether or not Gligar and Misdreavus would be broken under current conditions. We then test based on that metagame.


Step 3a: From step 2a, we will take a course similar to how UU is playing out currently, in which suspects are nominated and banned in each round.

Step 2b: If Berry Juice is deemed broken and is therefore banned, testing will proceed in a method similar to the testing of Pokemon in OU. Gligar and Misdreavus will be tested, and based on that test, we will have a baseline metagame in which to test the rest of the metagame against.

Step 3b: From step 2b, we will then test Yanma and Meditite in respect to the suspect-free baseline metagame in order to determine how balanced they are given standard battling conditions.

Step 4b: From step 3b, as soon as testing is completed regarding all suspects, we'll throw them all together similar to Stage 3, in order to see how they play with respect to one another. This may or may not change the final tiering decision of the suspect Pokemon.
I think if berry juice isn't broken then we should just continue with finding the 'new suspects' before we drop Ubers. The clean slate argument still applies (but I guess less so because of the huge impact of Berry juice).
 

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