The type chart

[greengrappler]

(Gee I hope I'm posting this in the right place, first thread in a long time)

The type chart is a huge balancing factor for Pokémon: Pokemon with high stats can be broken by bad typing either defensively or offensively. If it weren't for the type chart, the game would devolve into choosing the pokemon with the best stats or diversity of movepool.
But some types are better than others: Steel's myriad resistances, as opposed to Normal's one, Grass versus Electric in terms of weaknesses, Dragon and Psychic types getting diverse coverage moves through TM.
But what if pokemon went the rock-paper-scissors route? Each type having X strengths and Y weaknesses, no type better than any other? Would it be more fun? More fair?
This discussion's main topic is the type chart, but my first question is: Do you think that Pokémon's type chart is an effective gameplay mechanic? Does it make the game, or break the game? Why?

Thoughts?

I want to make it clear I am not trying to change the game, I just want people's opinion on it

 

[Antihaxxer]

Some match-up doesn't make sense at all .. For example, Poison should be effective against Water and Steel (corrosive acid etc...), but that's a interesting tool !

 

[Billy the Uncle]

I think it's fair that some types are created better than others, type chart-wise. It helps add variety. Imagine a world with only Grass, Water, and Fire as types. Which one is better? Which one do I pick? It would be super balanced, but also kind of... bland. Literally rock-paper-scissor.

I also think it's fair that most of the strongest types matchup-wise (Fairy, Dragon, Steel) are kind of rare. The only outlier here is Water, which is a strong AND common type.

Of course I don't agree 100% with how the type chart is laid out. Ice's lack of resistances is the most notorious culprit here, and some matchups don't quite make sense. (However one could make arguments for every kind of match up and still make sense. I've heard people saying that Fire should be super effective on Water because water boils and evaporates. Or on Rock because volcanoes melt rocks. You can even argue that Poison should be super effective on Psychic because you can't think straight when you're on acids, lol).

But in the end, I think the type chart is a huge part of what made Pokémon what is it. Pokémon without types and matchups wouldn't be Pokémon at all.

 

[Caramel Prisoner]

However one could make arguments for every kind of match up and still make sense.

Can you explain Psychic being super effective against Poison to me? I never understood that one.

 

[Codraroll]

Another interesting thing to consider, is that any changes to the type chart would inevitably affect two types. On IRC the other day, I made the case that Ice should at the very least resist Grass. There's no reason why it shouldn't, right? Until I got the response "but that would make Grass an even worse type offensively", which actually is a fair point. There are already five types Grass hits for NVE damage, and adding a sixth would drive the final nail further into that coffin.

This is true in many other cases too: "Type X should resist Y!" or "W should hit Z super-effectively!" You consider that types X and W would get a much-needed bost, but there might be an unwarranted nerf to types Y and Z in there too, and that may actually weigh heavier than the boosts would.

In any case, I'm glad the type chart isn't entirely balanced. Every type has its strengths and weaknesses, some moreso than others, but ultimately the types end up being fairly balanced. For the most part. I could be ranting a bit more about the Ice-type here, but I kinda have a project going with that already. Stay tuned.

 

[Siggu]

If there's an 'issue' with the type chart is that some types don't really match the typical stat distributions for Pokemon of that type.

Steel, Rock and Ice, for instance, are excellent, underwhelming and terrible defensive types respectively, yet it's fairly common to find Pokemon with similar stat distributions on them.

Rock was somewhat fixed in later generations due to the introduction of more glass cannons, the sandstorm buff, or secondary types that compensate Rock's weaknesses. Ice, on the other hand... only got Weavile as the Pokemon that faithfully represents Ice's traits in the game.

 

[greengrappler]

Some match-up doesn't make sense at all .. For example, Poison should be effective against Water and Steel (corrosive acid etc...), but that's a interesting tool !

I agree, Poison is a hard one. While yes, you can't poison a robot, what about acid? Isn't acid a poison?

Can you explain Psychic being super effective against Poison to me? I never understood that one.

So that way you could beat the life out of team rocket in the original games with your Alakazam. Just in case it was too hard otherwise. JK. I always thought of it as: Doctors are smart, doctors cure you of poison.

MOD EDIT: Please do not double post. Posts manually merged.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

I've always thought that some seemingly senseless match-ups are there to help balance some types. Take Dark > Ghost: why would ghosts be afraid of the dark? They live in darkness, for heaven's sake!

However, it makes sense game-balance wise. Dark was introduced in Gen II to help balance Psychic, but they needed Darks to do more than just kill Psychics. Ghost had basically no weaknesses back then, except itself, and it needed some balance as well. Dark lacked effectiveness in attack, Ghost lacked weaknesses, they just put them together and had Dark hit Ghost super effectively. I think Bug > Dark is there for the same reason: Dark needed something to hit it super effectively, and Bug needed some strength.

 

[Antihaxxer]

Dark is not Darkness ! Dark is Evil type, fighting with a dirty style. Ghost are darkness ! That's an awful translation

 

[Heracr055]

Fairy should be weak to fire because it is heavily implied by those creepy Fairy Tale trainers. One of the ones on the route between Hoenn's desert route and Fallabor Town (the one with all the ash) says something along those lines.

 

[Siggu]

Fairy should be weak to fire because it is heavily implied by those creepy Fairy Tale trainers. One of the ones on the route between Hoenn's desert route and Fallabor Town (the one with all the ash) says something along those lines.

Well, Fairy is resisted by Fire so there's already a disadvantage.

 

[Altissimo]

ice needs another resist, not a question

 

[greengrappler]

Another thing to consider about types is their natural immunities: Fire is immune to burning, Electric paralysis, etc. I feel that Grass being immune to powder/spore moves is a huge advantage in combat, no Rage Powder in doubles and no #!** Spore. This makes Grass actually pretty good as a type IMO. Maybe if Ice got 1.5X SPatt in hail it would be balanced...

 

[MME Enterprises]

ice needs another resist, not a question

I agree. I think to balance things out Ground should be resisted by Ice at least. After all, Ground hits 5 types super effectively and only has 2 resists and 1 immunity. It could use another resist. I also don't get why Fairy resists Bug. Bug was resisted by 6 other types before. Why add a 7th resist? This isn't fair to the Bug type in my opinion.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Boy is that the loaded question. Is the Type Chart fair? Well I guess that all depends what the type we're talking about, now isn't it? Probably best we go through each type one at a time for this since not all types are created equal:

Normal

For the "default" type that's suppose to be closest to being typeless, I'd say what it got is pretty fair. Its a bit odd its only weak to Fighting and not other stuff like Psychic or Poison, but I suppose the idea its like average joe going up against a martial arts expert, joe is getting hurt. However immunity to Ghost I guess makes up that. Plus the advantage of being Normal-type goes outside the type chart: being able to learn a lot of elemental TMs. Not to mention Normal is also the type many Pokemon with gimmicks are placed so another thing that's outside the Type Chart.

Fighting

Fair, its actually quite even minus it not having an immunity. As always the only thing that's odd is the dual resistance with Bug. Fighting is the king of Physical but severely lacks against Special, which is what expected.

Flying

Fair, the usual problem with Flying is that its most always a dual type. But purely on its own I don't see a problem Type Chart wise.

Poison

An odd type, despite what you think it is its actually more of a defensive type, probably because it relies on poisoning its enemies than going all out offensive. With it becoming a weakness to Fairy I think it breaks even. Still, you'd think Poison would be a weakness to a few more things like Water.

Ground

Fair, oddly a strong offensive type that hits many notable types (including some walling types) but weak to common ones.

Rock

Rock is a specialty type, if anything its moves are more valuable than the type itself (though many of its moves having imperfect accuracy doesn't help it on that front). It has too many weaknesses to common types that really holds it back (and some of those resist it too).

Bug

You know, for the type based on what inspired Pokemon it got the short end of the stick. Resisted by SO many types, honestly I think we can remove a few like Fighting and Ghost. Though even than that doesn't help it, it kind of needs an additional boon like maybe resistant to Confusion (due to them having a hive mind). Honestly I think the type could use a redo.

Ghost

Ghost is another specialty type but unlike Rock the specialty comes from it being Ghost-type. Immune to Normal and Fighting, unable to be trapped, resisted only by Dark, and only weak to itself and Dark; its very self contained with only what it resists (Bug for some reason; Poison which makes sense) and Psychic being weak to give it additional use. I would actually say that Ghost-type is more effective when paired up with another type as I see you losing little but gaining some useful tools.

Steel

Its the defense type and they were very kind with what it defends (plus Poison immunity). Even with the nerf it got if you're still probably going to have a hard time knocking it out without something super effective since Steel-type Pokemon also usually have high defense stats. What its weak to and doesn't resist I feel is fair. Not really much offense potential though, Steel is a type where by it gains versatility when a dual-type as pure Steel is really only good as a wall (even with Fairy being weak to it).

Fire

Fire is true to its element. Destructive but easily put out. Though maybe a bit too easy to put out, despite a healthy number of resistances its weaknesses are very common types and Fire-type don't usually have the best defensive stats. It's almost to the point where Fire-type moves are more valuable than a Fire-type. I think it maybe needs another small boon to really help it, like maybe Fire-types increase the chance of burning an opponent with a Fire-type move.

Water

Fair. Water is good both offensive and defensive with reasonable (and not many) weaknesses. My only question would be why does it resist Ice and Steel? This especially goes for Ice as I would think it would be a weakness sinc it would freeze water (which is the idea behind the move Freeze-Dry, but why just that move).

Grass

For a Starter type and the first type in National Dex order (and usually Regional Dex), Grass also drew a short straw. Grass-type moves are great hitting common types, but its also resisted by a lot of types. Grass-types themselves have more weaknesses than resistances, which is not good though the weaknesses tend to be specialty types and does resist the above mentioned common types. Still, things ain't that great even with the additional immunity to Powder and Spore moves. I'd say it needs a redo but there's really nothing I can see that can be done for it.

Electric

Fair, though only because its overall effect on the type chart is minimal. Now Water being weak to it and Steel being a resistance is handy, but outside that really unnoticeable, especially with how bad it is against Ground-types (though it is its only weakness so you can't complain that much).

Psychic

Specialty type to the extreme, it doesn't really interact that much with common types aside Fighting which its super effective against. This is nice, and though it has more weaknesses they're of uncommon types (you could even say Psychic being weak to those types give those types some purpose). Heck, Psychic was so good in the original games they needed to introduce a two new types just to counter it, so yeah I think overall Psychic breaks even.

Ice

Another type where its moves are more useful than the Pokemon themselves. With it only resisting itself and have four weaknesses with some being common types it doesn't really help it. Obviously an offensive type... which leads us to our problem. Ice-types should be quick attackers like Fire-types, but for some reason GF keeps trying to make the Ice-type a Mighty Glacier where it has no business being. On top of that its boon of being unable to be Frozen isn't that useful since its a rare status ailment due to how OP it is. Ice (and the Freeze status) need a bit of a redo, or at least Pokemon that can use the type properly.

Dragon

The type itself is defensive focused though with only Steel resisting it there's a reason why it's also known as an offensive force. It eventually became so strong (though that's probably because of all the Legendaries, Psuedo-Legendary, and high powered moves that it got) that a new type was needed to counter it, not unlike Psychic for the first gen.

Dark

Dark is a lesser Ghost. Yes, harsh thing to say but whatever Dark can do the Ghost-type can also plus without that many other weaknesses. Infact it being weak and resisted by Fairy-type only brought it down further, even with it ignoring Prankster (for some reason). Dark needs a bit of a redo, or another (better) boon.

Fairy

Being introduced only a few years ago, Fairy was made in a time where type balance actually matters to GF so its placement in the Type Chart is fair for at least itself. Made to be a hard counter to Dragon & Fighting as well as better offensive Poison & Steel, the only questions come to its other type interactions especially Dark and Bug which really didn't need the nerf. Fair for itself, just not quite for other types it wasn't made to specifically nerf/boost.

Now Billy the Uncle brought up that its fair some types are better than others, it feels more natural and adds variety. I agree with this to an extent, I often use this argument when someone suggests re-balancing many Pokemon so all can be competitive. However I also disagree to an extent. Yes, some types are going to be better than others simply because of their type match-ups. However there are just some types terrible from an individual perspective, to where a Pokemon being that type is detrimental and its better to have a Pokemon of another type know a move of that type instead. I'm not suggesting to balance it so it can compete with the commonly seen types, I'm just saying change certain type match-ups and give boons to better that type so it at least has its own niche.

Codraroll points out the main problem with changing anything about the type chart, for every positive change to one that there has to be an equal negative change to another. You may see a type well off and suggest a lesser type get a positive match-up against it, but how many times can this be done until it makes this well off type being detrimental? This is why I pointed out the boons certain types have, its a trait a type has that only affects itself thus not negatively effecting other types that much. Tweaks can be made here and there, though as I said above these tweaks should be done with the goal of making a type stand on its own as an individual instead of trying to make it compete with commonly used types.

Now I would suggest even more changes I made but I feel that's on the edge of wishlisting so I'll leave my thoughts at this for now.

 

[Codraroll]

Codraroll points out the main problem with changing anything about the type chart, for every positive change to one that there has to be an equal negative change to another. You may see a type well off and suggest a lesser type get a positive match-up against it, but how many times can this be done until it makes this well off type being detrimental? This is why I pointed out the boons certain types have, its a trait a type has that only affects itself thus not negatively effecting other types that much. Tweaks can be made here and there, though as I said above these tweaks should be done with the goal of making a type stand on its own as an individual instead of trying to make it compete with commonly used types.

Adding a little to this: Some types will get the short end of the stick when it comes to the type chart, but that is fine, as long as an appreciable number of its Pokémon get other boosts elsewhere. The Normal type is a great example here: The type chart grants it little in the way of defense, and even less offensively, but the designers have set up a couple of other conventions to help Normal-types. Most notably, movepools as wide and deep as Undella Bay. Likewise, Dark has a lot of win-condition moves, Fire has high-powered moves and often high offensive stats, Poison and Ghost excel at passive damage, Electric rules the field of speed control, Grass has a lot of HP-restoring factors, etc. None of these have anything to do with the type chart, they're just design conventions that help make the types stand apart from another, and patch up the holes left by unfavourable type-match-ups.

The most notable problems arise when a type has bad match-ups AND lacks other factors to compensate for it. Poison was such a type until Fairy gave it a bit of a renaissance, as it was troubled by a bit of stat mediocrity and low-power moves (although it didn't help that Gen I introduced so many Poison-types that its quota was filled for years - to date, Gen I still accounts for more than half of all Poison-types - so the type in general has fallen a bit behind the times due to a lack of "fresh blood"). The reason why Ice is considered to be so royally screwed isn't because of its poor matchups in the type chart, but because it has nothing else to compensate. Not high or specialized stats, not wide movepools, not high-power moves, no speed control, no reliable boosting methods, all in all nothing favourable whatsoever. But again, more on that in due time.

 

[Altissimo]

it's got freeze!!!!!! wait

 

[Billy the Uncle]

To add to what http://www.smogon.com/forums/members/113666/ said, the way a type is seen also depends on the Pokémon that carry it. Dragon surely has its merits type-wise, but it helps that it has loads of cool-looking, monstrous-statted, competitively strong legendaries and pseudo-legendaries. Psychic, on the other hand, it's not the most gifted of types, but it has many legendaries and the versatility to save it from bashing.

Ice... it has been said many times, but it just has the wrong Pokémon. Most of them are slow and defensive, which doesn't fit the type at all. It makes sense actually, since a chunk of frozen water doesn't exactly look fast, more like hard to break. The few Ice-types that do not fit this are actually good: Weavile is fast and frail, Mamoswine is strong, and Kyurem just has huge stats all over.

 

[Magnus0]

Another interesting thing to consider, is that any changes to the type chart would inevitably affect two types. On IRC the other day, I made the case that Ice should at the very least resist Grass. There's no reason why it shouldn't, right? Until I got the response "but that would make Grass an even worse type offensively", which actually is a fair point. There are already five types Grass hits for NVE damage, and adding a sixth would drive the final nail further into that coffin.

This is true in many other cases too: "Type X should resist Y!" or "W should hit Z super-effectively!" You consider that types X and W would get a much-needed bost, but there might be an unwarranted nerf to types Y and Z in there too, and that may actually weigh heavier than the boosts would.

In any case, I'm glad the type chart isn't entirely balanced. Every type has its strengths and weaknesses, some moreso than others, but ultimately the types end up being fairly balanced. For the most part. I could be ranting a bit more about the Ice-type here, but I kinda have a project going with that already. Stay tuned.

I don´t see this as much of a problem. You can buff an underwhelming type while simultaneously nerfing a very strong type. For example, I think that ice should resist water. It makes no sense that freezing water is not very effective, while spraying water on ice does neutral damage, it´s basically the same thing. I think this is a very reasonable change because ice is easily the worst type and water is so common and versatile anyway. A change like this is killing two birds with one stone, because you only need one change to balance two types.

That said, changing the type chart would still have impact on other types. Not two types get affected by changes, but all types that have a relation to the two types involved in the change. If ice would get a buff and water a nerf, then grass would struggle even more as a type.