All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

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Well not much more to say really - pretty much everything fast enough or long-lasting enough without 4MSS wants substitute, for scouting and status blocking. In addition to Jolteon having 4MSS in Stadium, Tauros would now have to probably choose between Substitute and Blizzard, like it rarely does in RBY, instead of otherwise dropping Hyper Beam.

Also, compared to Stadium with the short sleep, where it can rely on its bulk to wake up, Starmie feels the full weight of being the inferior Substitute Psychic-type (to Alakazam), and against Chansey with Substitute, which makes Starmie's job of doing something versus it even harder.
 
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Alright then. Heres our next one. What if the hyper beam glitch was in gsc?

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So in rby, hyper beam is known to not have a recharge turn if you manage to kill a pokemon with it. This mechanic was then removed afterwards, rendering the move fairly useless competitive wise. But what if it was never removed? Would it change the meta as we know it? Would new threats appear while current threats fade? You tell me!
 
maybe tauros can be a bit viable again

I BELIEVE

other than that, not really - snorlax might use it but curse hyper beam double edge leaves little room for coverage + recovery.
 
It wouldn't change much honestly. It works in RBY because the game is fast and not much recovers or straight up sponges for the long term. The bug is only beneficial if you actually can kill stuff with it and keep going. The only ones who would use it in my opinion are Snorlax and Clefable.
 
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Too many normal resists that you will actually have a very hard time beating when losing a coverage move. I don't think anyone would even use hyper beam outside of the odd setupsweeper like Charizard I guess, in gsc coverage is alot more valuable though. When the main abusers of the hyperbeam glitch have easy ways to 2hko all normal resists it's very abusable, I doubt it would be in gsc though.
 
actually I think Charizard would benefit too (just remembering what borat said about drumzard in an analysis...) maybe someone could discuss how zard's affected?
 
As long as you don't get baited into Hyper Beaming the wrong thing. I mean, he still can't one-shot stuff like Suicune. I mean, if you do some damage and support it, it'll do work, but it was already like that for regular DrumZard. Snorlax/Clefable gets STAB and one-shots the bulky shit (I think any unresisted hit kills).
 
Hyper Beam has a nice chance to KO though, so about 15-20% dmg prior and Charizard has a godo chance to wrecking cune. GSC does seem wayyy too bulky as a whole with a lot of normal resists for Hyper Beam to break shit, but it might find marginal use on some offensive teams.
 
hyper beam has go over rock slide then (otherwise rocks/steels laugh at you) but that's fine since HB hits everything except Aerodactyl just as hard, albeit without flinch chance.
 
Not as big of a change as I hoped but still cool. Next up we have.... What if trick room existed in ADV?

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So we know that speed is absolute in adv outside of moves and salac berry. That means that faster pokemon will usually have a constant advantage over slower ones. But what if there was a way to turn that low speed to your advantage? Any pokemon that ever learned the move can use it in this scenario. Would it change the meta at all? Will new threats appear while current treats fade? You tell me!
 
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In NU, Kecleon and Chimecho would be reliable setters, with Spinda and Duskull notable too for getting it (though I doubt it would make either viable). Kecleon's pretty slow and generally pretty supportive in make-up, it'd definitely make use of it to support the team (being so specially tanky it can easily set one up) - it can even turn the tide on huntail potentially. Something like Graveler comes to mind as something that would enjoy the support. Chimecho could probably make use of it too; lots of Pokémon are faster and can revenge kill it, allowing it to turn the tables versus the most offensive teams, though on the flipside it's useless versus more balanced and defensive teams, due to its speed being okay meaning stuff like almost any Ground/Rock/Steel type will be slower and able to punish you for using it. Curse users such as Wailord and Torkoal would be painful for the trick room user (both of which wouldn't mind the matchup versus Chime if they had the speed advantage, but could actively switch in vs Kecleon) but aren't usually seen on the most offensive teams (though I tried curse+explosion wailord + huntail + glalie before) so for the most relevant trick room matchup it'd work fine.

Overall I'd say it's a small tech in NU that could add a little more depth to the game.
 
Trick Room has always been just Trick Room. A niche strategy within itself. It'll be the same thing to an extent in ADV, but it'll probably be more notable because of the smaller pool of threats in general. With it not being as offensive as later generations, the setters can do it over and over again. Sounds nice to combat Dugtrio especially.
 
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Trick Room in UU would be fucking awesome, Camerupt/Aggron/Ampharos getting in late-game after Lunatone/Solrock set up and Boom would be amazing. I think it'd actually be a major playstyle, at least as a late-game situation. It adds something to counteract the omnipresent BP/Sun centered teams, and Lunatone and Solrock are already amazing made even better with something like this in their back pocket. God I could not gush enough over this. Not only do the Rocks get it, but Hypno/Grumpig/Slowking/Banette/Misdreavus are all already fantastic Pokemon that get it too, and Girafarig/Stantler/Xatu/Mr. Mime are usable enough to make it worth it or at least back pocket option it before going down. It's too bad Dusclops and Marowak are BL cuz yeezus this would be nuts.

In NU it'd be doable but idk if it'd be worth it in the long run. Nothing stands out as particularly effective at setting it up, and nothing stands out as particularly effective at sweeping under it that wouldn't be better just being BPed Agility or something. Octillery and Piloswine would be killer if they had a good TR teammate to set it up, but Chimecho generally has better things to do, and idk if I'd bring Duskull just for TR support. If I was going to bring Spinda at all during an actual match it'd be part of a BP chain, not a gimmick TR team.

Don't play OU enough to really say how effective it'd be, but Claydol and Porygon2 would be a great setters along with Lunatone/Solrock, and Marowak/Camerupt/Metagross would be pretty effective if they could be brought it in a late-game situation. Overall I think it'd be more gimmicky than it would be as effective in UU, but I think it'd be doable enough to where you'd see it in tournament situations from time to time.
 
In ADV OU things wouldn't change much I think aside from some slow heavy hitters making a bigger impact, like Marowak. TTar would be even better conisdering its only bad stat would be nullified.
 
I feel like there are a lot of things that could take advantage of trick room in OU, I just don't think there are enough reliable setters to make it worth it. Lunatone is rare enough as is, and if using that you might as well just be going for cm baton pass because I feel that's a bit more potent. I guess claydol and p2 would be decent at it but it's a 5 turn move and those aren't the offensive behemoths that can take advantage of it, so you have to use it, then switch to something that can make use of it, hope to do some damage before the turns are up, then lose momentum trying to get these passive mons back in to set up trick room again. Doesn't seem like a winning set up for an offensive strategy. Maybe I'm missing something because I haven't played enough gens where trick room exists to really understand its effectiveness, but I just don't see it being much more than a gimmick in ADV OU.
 
trick room tyranitar isn't doing shit - the whole point of TR is to boost the priority of heavy hitters (which tyranitar isn't without boosting moves). Without something like Swords Dance there's no way for Tyranitar to universally threaten. CB sucks because the moment you mispredict you have to switch out and waste TR turns.

SD Marowak/Rhydon would be monsters - Rhydon in particular because it can really lay hurt into Skarmory
 
I mean tar can definitely make use of trick room but it would not rely on it to do work. I think trick room would be a move you'll see enough that you'd have to prepare for it. It would probably be used mid to late game where slow monsters like sd wak and don (aka the manly duo) can set up and try to sweep. However with the limited amount of turns, I dont think that would make the best use of trick room. I think a better use is just to allow your slow mons break through fast sweepers that would sweep you otherwise. For example, using the move to keep gar from flat out beating a bandmence. Trick room teams would most likely not be viable though for the reasons you guys said. It would be a move to counter fast mons and nothing more.
 
Mixtar seems at least decent under tr though it doesn't really fall under the umbrella of "dedicated wallbreaker", rather general utility/lure tbh; it could help weaken physical walls like skarmory for sweepers like Marowak.
 
Typhlito said:
For example, using the move to keep gar from flat out beating a bandmence. Trick room teams would most likely not be viable though for the reasons you guys said. It would be a move to counter fast mons and nothing more.
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it could similarly be used as a check for dd sweepers - throw down trick room and force it out with whatever you switch in next.
 
Ok on to the next one. What if air balloon existed in DPP?

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So pokemon like dugtrio can end up being the bane of certain pokemons existence since it can trap and kill mons like heatran, weakened jirachi and tyranitar, and many others. While there is the option to use shed shell, what if you don't have to run away from these threats anymore? Would it change the meta at all? Would new threats appear while old threats fade? You tell me!
 
In OU, Air Balloon would largely replace Shuca on Heatran and set up sweepers like Ttar, Empoleon, and Metagross. Ice Fang might become standard on physically defensive Hippo. Balloon Tran would be a solid switch in to all other Heatran variants, which in turn would cause more Heatrans to run Hidden Power over SR/Explosion. Passho Tran would be super obvious now, though probably just as useful. And noobs would've put Air Balloon on everything in early DPP—Infernape, Lucario, Electivire...
 
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Balloon does lose one very big upside Shuca Berry has though, unpredictability. This is especially the case for the setupsweepers you mentioned, a ttar that doesn't show lefties can be alot, scarf, lum, shuca, chople, pasho, expert belt, etc. The berry doesn't reveal what move will actually not kill your mon and give you a semi-free turn, whereas Air Balloon will reveal that and your opponent can try to play around that then. I do agree though that Balloon would be a very useful item, especially for Heatran which is more dominant than it is in BW. Superrachi has a harder time beating you, Heatran dittos play out differently and you get (semi-)free turns on several occasions, I don't think it would be a very metagame breaking item though, just like it isn't in BW. Dugtrio being even less used in dpp doesn't really help that matter either.
 
More tran will use the air balloon to counter other tran without hidden power it mean people will stop using wow/explosion

You know what its mean ? its mean heatran will be a setup bait for dd nite/dd kingdra.
 
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