The World Cup of Pokémon 2024 - Semifinals [TB @ #77]

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I promise you that we would have at least seen a tiebreak if not for bullshit, I have friends on Italy tho so idk, this feels fucking HORRIBLE to disconnect mid game, especially after me and my opponent agreed to recreate if this exact scenario happened, but other people who arent involved in this other than wanting to take a W got in the way and it's not my opponents fault its fine. Genuinely, Scumbag decision though. I dont know who made this decision at the end of the day, I heard in tours the TDs had a decision, but if any TD is saying that the game is "over", which I clearly saw in tours, on turn 7 go fuck yourself. It's not over until its over. I have a Kingambit tera suited for Sun, a roaring moon protoboosted by sun, the wake is paralyzed and I was not letting up on enabling the healing wish, trust me. If you are influencing this decision and you thought of that for my game on turn 7 you should reconsider your thought process or step down immediately

since the decision from masters I havent been able to play a proper game of 'mons in a playoffs setting, like literally ever in the past 2 years besides STour in early '23, and its just so disheartening tbh. you can only understand my frustration if you're in my shoes but I log on this website to play for my team, my country and most importantly to play Pokemon, next time I will just play at my fucking library but I tried to cover every single scenario before all of my games to make sure this doesnt happen and the decision just goes to the other player anyways so its so fucking frustrating to see it

My team doesnt deserve this decision and I feel genuinely terrible for disconnecting like this. It is going to leave a mark on me til the end of my mons run. Its a sad and painful way to go out. I signed up wanting to win this entire tournament and I couldn't even make it past four games without a loss not in my control. Im truly sorry team.
 
I have a lot to get off my chest. Please bear with me

It sucks having to go out after the Ima situation, or having to play right after the decision is made. This TD decision considering all the context, is just backwards. I respect Ken and the rest of the TDs, ya'll doing good work. However, this decision was just terrible. No flame just criticism. Please take a relook at the rules.

As much as Ima's decision sucked for us, nothing sucks more than having the tournament run go out on my loss. It really really does. Hax wasn't in my favor, but my prep was inferior and play was inferior. Santu was just the better player. I'm sorry team. Oh and I apologize to santu about claiming the team that was just dumb. Rookie mistake.

Despite going out like this, I still wanna give my thoughts on this tournament overall

I would like to say that including ORAS, SM, and SS in the WCoP was a huge success. I would have never been drafted or interested if it wasn't the case, and I'm sure its the same for many more people. Most of all, it gave a shot to mainers of the gen with little tournament experience, and they overperformed and exceeded expectations. I hope to see more of this in the future.

Thank you for everyone who cheered for me. Thank you for everyone who believed in me.

My biggest thank yous go out to xray, who none of this was possible without. And to z0mOG and shiloh for being extremely nice and giving me a shot at starting in ORAS despite minimum tournament experience. Thanks to everyone else who helped me prep and test, including my mentee NoName6293.

Huge thank you to all my teammates. I love you all. You were so friendly and chill to a rookie like myself. Ya'll are funny, put up with my schizo prep, gave me hella test games, and most importantly, I knew I had your 100% trust even if I loaded weird shit. Nothing would be cooler than if I get to be your teammate again in the other tournaments. Special s/o to TJ and ez for like 100+ test games.

Some misconceptions about me that I've been wanting to correct: I'm not German, I'm 26 years old, and although I'm new to tournaments, I've always been active on gen 5-8 ladders since 2014. I've never really entered tournaments due to either time or interest issues.

Although I've lost my last game, I'm still very proud of a very real 4-1 record despite it being my first real team tournament. Even though I've done all kinds of nerve wracking shit in my life, I don't think I was this nervous ever lol. Team tournaments are very fun and I hope to do more.

For now, this gives me a chance to focus once again on my ever busy IRL. I'll be making casual runs in all ORAS-related tours, and you can always find me on the ORAS ladder testing out Jolteon or some shit. You will see me shine once again in SPL. Till then.
 
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I'm very confused about many of the decisions taken about the ima vs zS game, as they go against what my understanding of the rules have been for years. I would like to ask that the TDs clarify what the rules for timeouts are, since they seem to have changed without an announcement at some point in time.

The Situation

Before their game, ima told zS that his internet was bad and asked if they could play without timer as a result, to which zS agreed. They start their game, and ima dc's on turn 4, with his timer at 120 seconds. He comes back, clicks a couple of moves and then dc's again, this time with his timer at 60 seconds. The DC timer runs out. The TD's/WCoP hosts then decided that it was up to team Italy to decide whether the game should be recreated or a win for zS.

The Rules

Let's take a look at some of the rules that one would expect to come into play given the above situation.

All taken from the tournament rules thread

Disconnections and Timer Clause: (...) In other tournaments, if a player disconnects and contends that they could still win, the battle will be recreated by the Tournament Directors from the point of interruption. Timing out is still classified as a loss, unless the reason for timing out is a disconnection.

Timer: The timer is always on during tournament games.

Player Agreements: Players are allowed to make agreements about their game before it happens, as long as it doesn't break the rules of the tier that the game is happening in, for example agreeing to "No Snorlax GSC OU" is acceptable, but agreeing to "Celebi allowed GSC OU" isn't. The players are not allowed to agree to play a different generation than what they were paired up in, nor a different game. It should also be noted that this is all entirely based on honor, Tournament Directors would not hand out a loss to a player that agreed not to bring Snorlax and then brought it.

Timer Clause: If a player exhausts the timer, he/she loses.

And some additional precedents/rules:

Before 2018, if a player timed out, there was a whole TeamSubmission thing that determined whether they got a recreate or not that we don't need to get into since the specifics aren't relevant, the relevant part is that to avoid the time out in the first place, many players would ask or have their teammates ask their opponent to turn the timer off until they could reconnect, and it was up to the opponent to decide. The TDs at the time decided that this placed an undue burden on the players to make a decision that would either hurt their team or their reputation while under pressure from multiple sources, on top of having their game to worry about, in case timer was turned off and the game resumed. Instead, the decision should be made by the TDs under objective, binary criteria of whether it was a timeout=loss or a DC=recreate.

This is the thread from when the new DC timer was implemented, alongside the new rules to govern DCs/timeouts

  • Once the disconnection timer expires the match ends and the tournament directors/hosts will determine whether a recreation or timeout result is appropriate.

The rationale for why the rule was changed, bolding mine (the stuff about turning timer off or not is because we didn't have the DC timer implemented yet)

  • Smogtours moderators, please do not turn off the timer unless there's a disconnection. Even if the opponent consents, the timer should stay on - the TD team recognizes the imbalance with player perception and what is competitive in these situations. While some players may feel confident or comfortable requesting that the timer stay on to allow their opponent to time-out into a loss, there are situations in which this could be made more difficult for inexperienced or newer tournament players. Other than making cheating significantly more difficult, we also want to minimize the effect that community perception has on the decisions a player makes in battle. It is for these reasons the TD team has decided that consent from the opposing player is not sufficient by itself to warrant turning the timer off.

Skip to turn 102 in this game to see an example of the lovely conversations people had before this rule was changed, these used to be very common. Contrast that with how these scenarios were handled post rule change.

As an aside, here is a game, post rule change, where a player timed out, and his opponent wanted to rematch anyway. Before clicking it, can you guess what happened, based on the rules and precedents we looked at so far?

At the point the DC timer hit 0 the TD's (if we're operating under the rules we have operated under since august 2018) should have decided whether they would look at ima's timer at the time of the initial DC or at the time of the second one, and then based on that decision determine whether this was a DC, in which case it should be recreated, or a Timeout, in which case Ima should be given a loss. Any agreements the players had before the game are irrelevant. Even if you want to completely disregard that, why was the decision left up to team Italy? Back before the rule change the decision was always up to the player, so it's not even reverting the rules to how they worked back in the day. The only possible explanation is that the TDs didn't want the smoke of making the call, and passed the buck to team Italy instead, which is insane, but it's not like the TDs explained the rationale for that decision publicly at any point in time (if they explained it to italy/west, I do not know).

So, with all that said I'd like to ask for the TDs to either update the public rules to reflect the rule changes that lead to this decision, as well as explain the rationale behind said rule changes, or acknowledge that they misinterpreted the rules and fucked up this decision, and that it won't happen in the future.

Ima should also have his gas and coffee money reimbursed.
 
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Screenshot 2024-07-07 174734.png
 
Luigi said:
I'm very confused about many of the decisions taken about the ima vs zS game, as they go against what my understanding of the rules have been for years. I would like to ask that the TDs clarify what the rules for timeouts are, since they seem to have changed without an announcement at some point in time.

The Situation

Before their game, ima told zS that his internet was bad and asked if they could play without timer as a result, to which zS agreed. They start their game, and ima dc's on turn 4, with his timer above the threshold. He comes back, clicks a couple of moves and then dc's again, this time with his timer below the threshold. The DC timer runs out. The TD's/WCoP hosts then decided that it was up to team Italy to decide whether the game should be recreated or a win for zS.

The Rules

Let's take a look at some of the rules that one would expect to come into play given the above situation.

All taken from the tournament rules thread

Disconnections and Timer Clause: (...) In other tournaments, if a player disconnects and contends that they could still win, the battle will be recreated by the Tournament Directors from the point of interruption. Timing out is still classified as a loss, unless the reason for timing out is a disconnection.

Timer: The timer is always on during tournament games.

Player Agreements: Players are allowed to make agreements about their game before it happens, as long as it doesn't break the rules of the tier that the game is happening in, for example agreeing to "No Snorlax GSC OU" is acceptable, but agreeing to "Celebi allowed GSC OU" isn't. The players are not allowed to agree to play a different generation than what they were paired up in, nor a different game. It should also be noted that this is all entirely based on honor, Tournament Directors would not hand out a loss to a player that agreed not to bring Snorlax and then brought it.

Timer Clause: If a player exhausts the timer, he/she loses.

And some additional precedents/rules:

Before 2018, if a player timed out, there was a whole TeamSubmission thing that determined whether they got a recreate or not that we don't need to get into since the specifics aren't relevant, the relevant part is that to avoid the time out in the first place, many players would ask or have their teammates ask their opponent to turn the timer off until they could reconnect, and it was up to the opponent to decide. The TDs at the time decided that this placed an undue burden on the players to make a decision that would either hurt their team or their reputation while under pressure from multiple sources, on top of having their game to worry about, in case timer was turned off and the game resumed. Instead, the decision should be made by the TDs under objective, binary criteria of whether it was a timeout=loss or a DC=recreate.

This is the thread from when the new DC timer was implemented, alongside the new rules to govern DCs/timeouts

  • Once the disconnection timer expires the match ends and the tournament directors/hosts will determine whether a recreation or timeout result is appropriate.

The rationale for why the rule was changed, bolding mine (the stuff about turning timer off or not is because we didn't have the DC timer implemented yet)

  • Smogtours moderators, please do not turn off the timer unless there's a disconnection. Even if the opponent consents, the timer should stay on - the TD team recognizes the imbalance with player perception and what is competitive in these situations. While some players may feel confident or comfortable requesting that the timer stay on to allow their opponent to time-out into a loss, there are situations in which this could be made more difficult for inexperienced or newer tournament players. Other than making cheating significantly more difficult, we also want to minimize the effect that community perception has on the decisions a player makes in battle. It is for these reasons the TD team has decided that consent from the opposing player is not sufficient by itself to warrant turning the timer off.

Skip to turn 102 in this game to see an example of the lovely conversations people had before this rule was changed, these used to be very common. Contrast that with how these scenarios were handled post rule change.

As an aside, here is a game, post rule change, where a player timed out, and his opponent wanted to rematch anyway. Before clicking it, can you guess what happened, based on the rules and precedents we looked at so far?

At the point the DC timer hit 0 the TD's (if we're operating under the rules we have operated under since august 2018) should have either decided that ima's timer at the time of the initial DC is what counts, and recreated the match, or that his timer when he ultimately DC'd are what counts, and ruled it a timeout, and a loss for ima. Any agreements the players had before the game are irrelevant. Even if you want to completely disregard that, why was the decision left up to team Italy? Back before the rule change the decision was always up to the player, so it's not even reverting the rules to how they worked back in the day. The only possible explanation is that the TDs didn't want the smoke of making the call, and passed the buck to team Italy instead, which is insane, but it's not like the TDs explained the rationale for that decision publicly at any point in time (if they explained it to italy/west, I do not know).

So, with all that said I'd like to ask for the TDs to either update the public rules to reflect the rule changes that lead to this decision, as well as explain the rationale behind said rule changes, or acknowledge that they misinterpreted the rules and fucked up this decision, and that it won't happen in the future.

Ima should also have his gas and coffee money reimbursed.
Click to expand...

It’s hilarious that TDs passed the responsibility to Italy to avoid the blame and backlash, still ended up getting the backlash anyway :bloblul:

Whether or not the decision to re-create the game or give Ima a loss shoulda been done by TDs, not literally his opponents who obviously have a conflict of interest and not a neutral third party.

That is like if the referee in football / soccer ask the other team “I will let you decide if you want a free penalty or not,” makes no sense, and like Luigi said it is not stated anywhere in the rules. Are TDs really retroactively creating rules to justify their baffling decision now? :worrywhirl:

Curious to see if TDs will actually response or just ignore it, swept it under the rug, and hope that people will forget about it in a few weeks
 
U all might hate me for this but if I was in Italys shoes and was given the choice to take a free win or rmk I will take free win too since it's not breaking any rules. Obv it's not "honorable" or anything but lol who cares. I just find it rly sus the free win ticket was presented though since there was a discord screenshot of 2 sides agreeing to pause or rmk if ima dcs.

World is a cruel place don't expect ur enemies to show kindness to u. If roles were reversed would u show kindness to Italy? That's a question only they'll know in their hearts.

Anything for Internet brownie points or some small pp pixel trophy boys :smirk:
 
Italians history on smogon:
haunter scandal, tele shiny, ghosting scandals, alt sharing scandals, tricking getting gifted wins in OLT, kebab mlml, ddosing their opponent and claiming wins, stealing teams and using them against the creator, the wcop captains are always puppets of a bigger mastermind, tricking doing mobbing to every player he manages, doing mobbing on users to get them banned, they luck every game

Please just ban every one of these annoying users, only a few of them are ok
 
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