You're giving Lucario waaay too much credit. He's frail as all hell, probably the most frail sweeper in OU. Arcanine has way better bulk and would set up MUCH easier. What's holding him back is Drizzle, the same reason Victini and Darmanitan aren't OU.
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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
^I don't disagree, I certainly agree.
Speaking of weather though-- I think one of the things that is missing from Sun is another offensive attack support. Rain got Hurricane added on top of Thunder after all, where as Sun only supporting the unreliable Solar Beam is pretty lame.
So how about this guys, what if: Sun gave Focus Blast Perfect accuracy?
Kind of like how Goku can draw power from the sun as well for his Genki Dama (spirit bomb). lol This should be applicable mechanics right???
Would this significantly boost Sun's power? Would Focus Blast suddenly get spammed every where on sun teams? Would it predominantly be abused by only non-fighting types (as it currently is), or would you see a swell of Keldeo and Lucario using Focus Blast? What about pokes like Landorus-I, and Hydreigon (with both Fire Blast and Focus Blast getting nice boosts)
Would Infernape forego Close Combat and its popular physical attacking sets?
Speaking of weather though-- I think one of the things that is missing from Sun is another offensive attack support. Rain got Hurricane added on top of Thunder after all, where as Sun only supporting the unreliable Solar Beam is pretty lame.
So how about this guys, what if: Sun gave Focus Blast Perfect accuracy?
Kind of like how Goku can draw power from the sun as well for his Genki Dama (spirit bomb). lol This should be applicable mechanics right???
Would this significantly boost Sun's power? Would Focus Blast suddenly get spammed every where on sun teams? Would it predominantly be abused by only non-fighting types (as it currently is), or would you see a swell of Keldeo and Lucario using Focus Blast? What about pokes like Landorus-I, and Hydreigon (with both Fire Blast and Focus Blast getting nice boosts)
Would Infernape forego Close Combat and its popular physical attacking sets?
This of course would improve the success of Sun teams. Though on paper this sounds really good, but in reality it won't be that big of a change as one might expect.
If a Poke is not fighting type, yet it has FB in its set, then it is mainly used most likely for coverage reasons. What this means is that for a neutral hit, that Poke's STAB is equally or more powerful than FB in most cases, so the STAB attack would be more often spammed. However, Poke's like Hydreigon and Gengar's STAB's equal FB in damage, and with perfect accuracy they now have a 2nd "reliable" attack to hit incoming switches. This actually would make these Pokes pretty dangerous, as now 2 of their attacks are reliable to spam. It only makes it scarier that Dark/Fighting and Ghost/Fighting have insane coverage, being resisted only by a select few. Then again, Hydreigon's Fire Blast in the Sun is still stronger ._.
In the cases for fighting types Pokes though, then it is definitely a nice change that FB gets perfect accuracy. With this, it's possible to see Nasty Plot Infernape and Lucario become notable threats. Luc's priority move is weaker than his SD variant though, but it still has its advantages.
It's interesting to say this change does nothing to hurt TTar, since he brings sand to make everything all normal again.
Yes, but it wouldn't be like Tyranitar switching into predicted Thunders and Hurricanes because he doesn't get absolutely crushed by them.
Actually, I'm not too sure that Focus Blast would help out things like Nasty Plot Infernape either. While a perfectly accurate Focus Blast sounds ideal, in the Sun there are very few things that you'd rather hit with Focus Blast than Fire Blast. Any Steel- or Ice-type is getting hit with Fire Blast. Any situation where it's a neutral hit for each will always be in the favor of Fire Blast, thanks to the Sun boost. Only in situations where Fire is resisted and Fighting is not OR Fighting is Super Effective and Fire is neutral/resisted will Focus Blast be used. In OU, that's pretty much: Terrakion, Tyrannitar, the Blobs, Garchomp, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Heatran, and Vaporeon. Of those, if this is NPApe, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Rotom-W are irrelevant as they are OHKO'd by Fire Blast under the Sun (I guess 100 > 85 but still). Terrakion, TTar and Heatran are already destroyed by NP Infernape with Vacuum Wave, but I guess the perfect accuracy is a bonus for those sets lacking it. That leaves the Blobs and Vaporeon as the only Pokemon that absolutely need Focus Blast to be dealt with. In essence, what Infernape can or can't do with the Special set remains the same. Is the guarantee on two targets really that big of a difference? So, in short, NPApe doesn't really gain a whole lot from the change. Non-NP sets, however, might gain some help if the player is trying to score guaranteed unboosted damage.
That said, I do think that it gives enough rationale to switch your SDApe to NPApe (or Physical and Special Ape). The way I've seen it, NPApe and SDApe are two near-identical sets that both have their positives and negatives. Physical Ape suffers from CC's defense drops and FB's recoil, while Special Ape suffers from Focus Miss and the rare miss from Fire Blast. The misses have generally outweighed the recoil/drops in terms of hinderance, but now that Focus Blast hits, there's less reasons for Apes under the Sun to use Physical sets. So yes, it might affect usage for Sun teams.
This applies to most other Fighting-types, too. Lucario might not gain a lot of power from the change, but it does allow it to shift over to a Special set, utilizing its "superior" Special Attack stat. This might actually help out a potential Agility set a bit more than the Nasty Plot set, actually.
In short: perfect accuracy Focus Blast seems more like a luxury than an actual impacting change for Fighting-types. What the Pokemon do with their current sets won't be changed much, it just becomes less risky to use Special builds.
That said, I do think that it gives enough rationale to switch your SDApe to NPApe (or Physical and Special Ape). The way I've seen it, NPApe and SDApe are two near-identical sets that both have their positives and negatives. Physical Ape suffers from CC's defense drops and FB's recoil, while Special Ape suffers from Focus Miss and the rare miss from Fire Blast. The misses have generally outweighed the recoil/drops in terms of hinderance, but now that Focus Blast hits, there's less reasons for Apes under the Sun to use Physical sets. So yes, it might affect usage for Sun teams.
This applies to most other Fighting-types, too. Lucario might not gain a lot of power from the change, but it does allow it to shift over to a Special set, utilizing its "superior" Special Attack stat. This might actually help out a potential Agility set a bit more than the Nasty Plot set, actually.
In short: perfect accuracy Focus Blast seems more like a luxury than an actual impacting change for Fighting-types. What the Pokemon do with their current sets won't be changed much, it just becomes less risky to use Special builds.
The other major difference between SD and NP Infernape is the coverage. Stone Edge has a lot better neutral coverage with Fire / Fight than HP Ice or Grass Knot-- and overall, has the power that makes it a better attack too. HP Ice gets great coverage on a lot of important targets in OU, but it's just so weak and resisted by key threats as well-- overall it's not as good as Stone Edge, which is part of what makes the physical sets stronger.
Another major problem with Focus Blast is that generally speaking, physical fighting > special fighting in OU. The blobs, TTar, Heatran, almost every major threat you would want to hit with fighting coverage can be hit harder by physical fighting (which almost all fighting types can use as well or better than Focus Blast).
Another major problem with Focus Blast is that generally speaking, physical fighting > special fighting in OU. The blobs, TTar, Heatran, almost every major threat you would want to hit with fighting coverage can be hit harder by physical fighting (which almost all fighting types can use as well or better than Focus Blast).
What if landorus therian got access to blizzard?
This will be short as I don't have much time, however when looking at threats to hail teams two things pop into my mind the first is heatran, and secondly I think of terakion the baine of every hail team as it's ridiculously hard to counter. However lando can switch in to sponge the hit and now doesnt have to worry about dragons setting up on it as it could scare them away with blizzard. not the best theorymon but just a thought I had.
This will be short as I don't have much time, however when looking at threats to hail teams two things pop into my mind the first is heatran, and secondly I think of terakion the baine of every hail team as it's ridiculously hard to counter. However lando can switch in to sponge the hit and now doesnt have to worry about dragons setting up on it as it could scare them away with blizzard. not the best theorymon but just a thought I had.
This is actually a bit weird and scary. First, it's weird why Landy-T would want to utilize his SpA unless it's used for surprise value because otherwise you'd be giving up some special bulk just to make sure you have a coverage move. Also, the only real dragon you're preventing from setting up is SD Chomp, because Stone Edge takes care of DD Nite and DD Mence (U-Turn also hits Hyreigon and Lati@s hard). You could say it's usable to counter opposing Landy and Gliscor, but Landy-I is faster and will already OHKO with HP Ice. It's uses are very low and it probably won't make Landy-T that much stronger.
This is where it gets scary though. Because Landy-T is pretty much a different form of Landy-I, it only means Landy-I can use Blizzard as well, and it is actually an insane weapon for him. Currently, Landy-I sets have HP Ice for coverage, which sadly sits at 70 base power before LO as it's ability doesn't boost it. Blizzard, however, being boosted by Sheer Force, sits at 156 base power before LO, and with that kind of strength its shaky accuracy becomes well worth it (he already runs into that problem already with Focus Miss so it won't feel that different).
I am more curious about that; What if Blissey would get Poison Heal as an ability. It is a great special wall. And it will definitely benefit from the 1/8th healing per turn. Though it will not help with physical attacks. It will help with toxic stalling. It won't lose that much health from Sandstorm/Hail and what it dose lose it gains back from Poison Heal with more than enough. Also it would deter Trick/Switcheroo users from tricking say a Choice Scarf since it will be holding a Toxic Orb. This comes as a mixed blessing to Blissy since it wouldn't like having Aromatherapy are any status healing move. Since this would prevent Blissy from getting some end turn healing. But those are just my thoughts.
Not that it really matters about Lando-I since it's Uber now anyway.
What if Jellicent learned Rapid Spin?
The ability to spin and spinblock at the same time woul be unique in OU and would certainly make it even better than it is now. With reliable recovery, it could probably even replace Donphan as the go-to Sun spinner, with its immunity to Water and Fighting. It probably wouldn't see as much use on Rain teams, because Tentacruel and Starmie are still both brilliant. Unfortunately, it does have some difficulty with some hazard layers, namely Ferrothorn, but it could run HP Fire (especially in the sun) to overcome this issue. It also fits flavor-wise, with its round body and the fact that the only other jellyfish Pokemon can learn it.
What if Jellicent learned Rapid Spin?
The ability to spin and spinblock at the same time woul be unique in OU and would certainly make it even better than it is now. With reliable recovery, it could probably even replace Donphan as the go-to Sun spinner, with its immunity to Water and Fighting. It probably wouldn't see as much use on Rain teams, because Tentacruel and Starmie are still both brilliant. Unfortunately, it does have some difficulty with some hazard layers, namely Ferrothorn, but it could run HP Fire (especially in the sun) to overcome this issue. It also fits flavor-wise, with its round body and the fact that the only other jellyfish Pokemon can learn it.
If this were to happen I think Jellicent would become a staple on both offensive teams and defensive teams.
Offensive
Jellicent would become the #1 spin blocker for offensive teams, as I believe they don't have a team slot to waste on a spinner like Starmie (who isn't going to be sweeping any time soon anyway). Skarmory + Jellicent would become very popular for offensive teams, and to be able to keep hazards off the field while spin blocking is incredible.
Defensive
Jellicent would become a staple on stall teams, as the utility it offers is just too good to pass up. It would completely replace Tentecruel imo, as the only way Tentecruel would outclass Jellicent now would be running a Sub Toxic set, or lay down Toxic Spikes. I also think Jellicent could (and would) be used on every kind of weather.
Also just a small note, but I thought every spinner has trouble against Ferrothorn, as it has Iron Barbs, Leech Seed, and can just start setting hazards back up anyway. I actually think Jellicent would stand the best chance against Ferrothorn, as it can Taunt it, burn it, and recover off any damage (we might be running into 4MSS here)
Damn, Jellicent is already one of the best pokemon in OU. I've actually had this thought a while back. Agreeing with ShootinStarmie, it would be seen even more on defensive teams, while earning a spot on offensive teams, although I think Gengar would still keep its spot as HO spinblocker. Unfortunately, you can practically taste the 4MSS with Scald, Taunt, WOW, Recover, and Rapid Spin though. Also, it definitely can deal with Ferrothorn, which is nice.
This would be great. Issues with Aromatherapy are kind of mute in my opinion because Blissey has plenty of other roles to play for a team, from setting up Stealth Rock to passing Wishes, losing the ability to be a good Cleric is worth the HP restoration opportunities.
Unfortunately tough, I doubt it works flavor wise, only poisonous Pokemon, without a poison-type, get it.
Well, Landorus-Therian already prevents Dragon-types from setting up on it fairly well. Stone Edge 2HKOs both Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and Salamence, while Earthquake 2HKOs Garchomp. Also, Landorus-T already has its moveset filled- EQ / Stone Edge / U-Turn / Stealth Rock are all more important and more viable than Blizzard, so even if Lando-T got it it probably wouldn't use it.
Here's an interesting one:
What if Ice-types got a +1 Special Defense boost in Hail?
This might not seem like much of a change competitively, as few Ice-types are super threatening defensive wise in OU, but if you think about it, this change would be pretty neat. It makes sense as Rock-types also get a +1 Special Defense boost in Sand, and Ice-type Pokemon find hail and snow ridden areas similar to home so it makes sense that they will feel more psychologically safer, hence the +1 SpDef boost.
Competitively, this isn't as drastic a change as some others already posted in this thread, but it would still be interesting. It would definitely help make Hail a lot more viable, as Hail's weakness to Fire would be helped somewhat. Ice-types such as Kyurem-B or Mamoswine who are already fairly bulky will find themselves easily sponging even super effective attacks. Defensive Ice-types such as STALLREIN will find that their sponging and stalling abilities are drastically increased. Here are some damage calculations.
Mamoswine- a permanent +1 Special Defense boost actually lets Mamoswine survive certain extremely useful OHKOs. Here are some calcs.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 110-132 (30.47 - 36.56%) -- 55.57% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 164-194 (45.42 - 53.73%) -- 39.45% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 264-312 (73.13 - 86.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1)
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 265-315 (73.4 - 87.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1)
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 231-273 (63.98 - 75.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (probable OHKO without +1 SpDef)
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 272-320 (75.34 - 88.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1 SpDef)
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 266-316 (73.68 - 87.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1 SpDef)
Escaping all of those OHKOs would help Mamoswine drastically with its job of revenge killing faster threats. With a permanent +1 Special Defense boost, Mamoswine can reliably revenge kill all of the above threats.
Kyurem-B- already bulky as hell; +1 SpDef boost would make its SubAttack set almost impossible to counter specially:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 336-396 (82.96 - 97.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1)
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 191-226 (47.16 - 55.8%) -- 19.92% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO and guaranteed OHKO after SR without +1)
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 192-226 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO without +1)
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 196-232 (48.39 - 57.28%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO without +1)
252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: (51.35 - 60.74%) -- take a hit and then reply back with an OHKO
STALLREIN
252 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 180-212 (42.95 - 50.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather
252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 222-264 (52.98 - 63%) -- 75.39% chance to 2HKO after weather (with protect, the chances to 2HKO max HP Walrein is close to 0)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 228-268 (54.41 - 63.96%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 175-207 (41.76 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather
For the lols: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 152-179 (36.27 - 42.72%) -- 2.05% chance to 3HKO after weather
Ice-types would become specially defensive behemoths. Perhaps Hail would become more viable. Who knows?
Here's an interesting one:
What if Ice-types got a +1 Special Defense boost in Hail?
This might not seem like much of a change competitively, as few Ice-types are super threatening defensive wise in OU, but if you think about it, this change would be pretty neat. It makes sense as Rock-types also get a +1 Special Defense boost in Sand, and Ice-type Pokemon find hail and snow ridden areas similar to home so it makes sense that they will feel more psychologically safer, hence the +1 SpDef boost.
Competitively, this isn't as drastic a change as some others already posted in this thread, but it would still be interesting. It would definitely help make Hail a lot more viable, as Hail's weakness to Fire would be helped somewhat. Ice-types such as Kyurem-B or Mamoswine who are already fairly bulky will find themselves easily sponging even super effective attacks. Defensive Ice-types such as STALLREIN will find that their sponging and stalling abilities are drastically increased. Here are some damage calculations.
Mamoswine- a permanent +1 Special Defense boost actually lets Mamoswine survive certain extremely useful OHKOs. Here are some calcs.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 110-132 (30.47 - 36.56%) -- 55.57% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 164-194 (45.42 - 53.73%) -- 39.45% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 264-312 (73.13 - 86.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1)
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 265-315 (73.4 - 87.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1)
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 231-273 (63.98 - 75.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (probable OHKO without +1 SpDef)
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 272-320 (75.34 - 88.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1 SpDef)
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 266-316 (73.68 - 87.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1 SpDef)
Escaping all of those OHKOs would help Mamoswine drastically with its job of revenge killing faster threats. With a permanent +1 Special Defense boost, Mamoswine can reliably revenge kill all of the above threats.
Kyurem-B- already bulky as hell; +1 SpDef boost would make its SubAttack set almost impossible to counter specially:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 336-396 (82.96 - 97.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO without +1)
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 191-226 (47.16 - 55.8%) -- 19.92% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO and guaranteed OHKO after SR without +1)
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 192-226 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO without +1)
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 196-232 (48.39 - 57.28%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO without +1)
252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. +1 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: (51.35 - 60.74%) -- take a hit and then reply back with an OHKO
STALLREIN
252 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 180-212 (42.95 - 50.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather
252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 222-264 (52.98 - 63%) -- 75.39% chance to 2HKO after weather (with protect, the chances to 2HKO max HP Walrein is close to 0)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 228-268 (54.41 - 63.96%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 175-207 (41.76 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after weather
For the lols: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +1 232 HP / 4+ SpD Walrein: 152-179 (36.27 - 42.72%) -- 2.05% chance to 3HKO after weather
Ice-types would become specially defensive behemoths. Perhaps Hail would become more viable. Who knows?
i feel ice types should get a defensive boost as that's usually the weaker of their defensive stats, kind of like why rock gets the SpD boost in sand
just something to benefit them
just something to benefit them
^I kind of agree that a DEF boost makes more sense. Rock got a SpD boost because rock types always had issue with Water and Grass attacks throughout the history of Pokemon. Also not going to cover up TTar's predominant physical weakness to 4x fight.
So, I think a DEF boost to Ice types-- who hate Fighting, Rock, and Steel-type attacks more than just Fire ones-- makes more sense. Like TTar's Fight weak, it wouldn't cover up Aboma's Fire Weak. It would allow Ice types to survive random Mach and Bullet Punches, which would be cool!
Aboma and Kyurem series do tend to be Special walls more than physical, but I think DEF is good because Aboma's going to lol all over Starmie and Politoad with or without he Sp.Def boost (though you'd worry less about Focus Blast). Hard to say though, since a Sp.Def boost would make Aboma a very nice check to Lati@s without HP Fire.
Continuing to talk about weather, and going back to Sun-- obviously, perfectly accurate Focus Blast wasn't that much of a turn on for you guys. And yeah, it's kind of hard to see where the benefit would come from. So I have a slightly SCARIER proposition for Sun boosting an alternative attack type:
What if Sun removed the SpA drop from Draco Meteor?
Just like Rain allows Tornadus and Dragonite to spam a very powerful STAB attack of an amazing attacking type, Sun removing D Meteor's SpA drop would give Dragons a very similar result.
Dragon, like Flying, is an obscenely good STAB offensive type, and just like Water + Flying is a lethal attack combo, Dragon + Fire is as well.
Unlike Hurricane + Water though, there is a multitude of Dragons that have access to Dragon + Fire Attacks, and will definitely abuse them in tandem under the sun. Salamence, Hydreigon, Dragonite, and Lati@s would be put in an interesting situation.
So, I think a DEF boost to Ice types-- who hate Fighting, Rock, and Steel-type attacks more than just Fire ones-- makes more sense. Like TTar's Fight weak, it wouldn't cover up Aboma's Fire Weak. It would allow Ice types to survive random Mach and Bullet Punches, which would be cool!
Aboma and Kyurem series do tend to be Special walls more than physical, but I think DEF is good because Aboma's going to lol all over Starmie and Politoad with or without he Sp.Def boost (though you'd worry less about Focus Blast). Hard to say though, since a Sp.Def boost would make Aboma a very nice check to Lati@s without HP Fire.
Continuing to talk about weather, and going back to Sun-- obviously, perfectly accurate Focus Blast wasn't that much of a turn on for you guys. And yeah, it's kind of hard to see where the benefit would come from. So I have a slightly SCARIER proposition for Sun boosting an alternative attack type:
What if Sun removed the SpA drop from Draco Meteor?
Just like Rain allows Tornadus and Dragonite to spam a very powerful STAB attack of an amazing attacking type, Sun removing D Meteor's SpA drop would give Dragons a very similar result.
Dragon, like Flying, is an obscenely good STAB offensive type, and just like Water + Flying is a lethal attack combo, Dragon + Fire is as well.
Unlike Hurricane + Water though, there is a multitude of Dragons that have access to Dragon + Fire Attacks, and will definitely abuse them in tandem under the sun. Salamence, Hydreigon, Dragonite, and Lati@s would be put in an interesting situation.
Yeah i don't think that it fits flavor wise with it. But you have to admit it would be pretty cool.
This would create one of the most powerful attack combos in the game. We already know from Reshiram's power that Dragon/Fire provides near perfect neutral coverage (only being resisted by Heatran in OU), so with STAB affecting Draco Meteor and Sun affecting Fire Blast, you're looking at 210 or 180 base damage respectively. Spec/Scarf Mence gets a lot more scary having the insane coverage as well as the freedom to just spam Draco Meteor, whereas Hydreigon gets to ease prediction by dropping Meteor on the switch without worry about the SpA drop.
That's where the problem comes in for this attack though: it eases prediction and oversimplifies attack patterns. Take Lati@s for example. In the worse case scenario, they're attacking with a resisted Draco Meteor for 105 base damage after STAB against Steels. That is still stronger than their coverage move of Surf, sitting at 95. What this means is that there becomes no reason for Lati@s to use any other move than Draco Meteor, especially if there are no drawbacks to the attack. It should be noted that the Pokemon that can tank a Draco Meteor also do not necessarily force the Lati twins out either, as many are at least 2HKO'd or are not an offensive threat.
Now, a good idea to counter this would be to win a weather war, however, the offensive presence of a spammed Draco Meteor makes it very difficult for other weather starters to come in. TTar and Toed will not switch into a Spec Latios' Draco Meteor fearing to be 2HKO'd, leaving Latios free to continue spamming.
Lol, Chou Toshio, are you going to say what if Draco Meteor lowered the opponents Special Defense by 2 upon use?
What if Ninjask got Brave Bird and Stealth Rock?
Here's the set I'm thinking of:
Ninjask @ Leftovers / Life Orb | Speed Boost
Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe | Max IVs
Brave Bird | Stealth Rock | Protect / Roost | Baton Pass
Now, face the wrath, of the new deadly Ninjask! This set is beast. It's offensive Ninjask. Brave Bird is STAB, and Stealth Rock is awesome. Finally when using Leftovers, Protect is best, and when using Life Orb, Roost is best. The reason Ninjask wants Protect is because it can't actually threaten the opponent or do anything useful do to its crap movepool, so introducing Brave Bird and Stealth. Do you think Ninjask would be a more worthy opponent than a little wussy who hides behind dolls? Discuss!
What if Ninjask got Brave Bird and Stealth Rock?
Here's the set I'm thinking of:
Ninjask @ Leftovers / Life Orb | Speed Boost
Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe | Max IVs
Brave Bird | Stealth Rock | Protect / Roost | Baton Pass
Now, face the wrath, of the new deadly Ninjask! This set is beast. It's offensive Ninjask. Brave Bird is STAB, and Stealth Rock is awesome. Finally when using Leftovers, Protect is best, and when using Life Orb, Roost is best. The reason Ninjask wants Protect is because it can't actually threaten the opponent or do anything useful do to its crap movepool, so introducing Brave Bird and Stealth. Do you think Ninjask would be a more worthy opponent than a little wussy who hides behind dolls? Discuss!
No, where did you get that idea? I'm saying that after Draco Meteor, no Pokemon would lose -2Sp.A. So you could continuously spam Draco Meteor with no drops in your Special Attack under sun.
So just like Rain makes Hurricane a powerful, spammable STAB move for Tornadus, Sun would make Draco Meteor Spammable for Salamence and friends.
@Lati@s
Actually, Ttar's non-choiced sets can easily be EV'd to take on Choice Specs Latios without giving a shit.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 192+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 174-205 (43.39 - 51.12%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 240 HP / 192+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 158-186 (39.4 - 46.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Add in Leftovers and TTar really don't give a fuck about Draco Meteor-- especially since its sand will put out the sun, and case the -2 SpA fall to happen. Doesn't really give a fuck about Surf either. Leftovers is huge, and the fact that it can still destroy Latios with Pursuit...
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.64%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
(^The same damage TTar does with Pursuit should Latios flee) Pursuit is a sure fire 2HKO is Latios stays in because of Sand Damage.
Also Mixed +Sp.Def TTar is a very legit set, so I don't want to hear people saying it's niche-- it's epic.
Point being, is that while Hydreigon and Salamence would DEFINITELY have a hay-day in sun and be able to epically spam Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, Latios and Latias would have to be a LOT more careful when TTar is in the game-- because their relationship to TTar would be completely the same. Salamence and Hydreigon don't care too much since they're not pursuit weak and have EQ/Hydro Pump or Superpower/Focus Blast to fall back on.
Also you guys, if Sun removed D. Meteor's Sp.A drop, what would you guys think of Dragonite?
Dragonite
@Leftovers
-Draco Meteor
-Hurricane
-Thunder / Surf
-Agility
Rain sweeper, but if sun comes up, Dragonite punishes Sun teams with no SpA drop D Meteor
Dragnite
@Choice Specs
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Hurricane
-Thunder / Surf
Dragonite adapted for Sun or Rain, and having almost flawless coverage in both weather
You're right about this, however take note that SpD TTar is specifically designed to counter common SpAttackers, if not primarily the Lati twins.
The issue I have with this is that this is probably one of very few Pokemon that can actually counter Specs Latios, not to mention TTar has to be relatively healthy to survive the 2HKO. The question comes to "who else can tank and force out?" because you won't see SpD TTar on every team, and you may not always have a healthy.
But the bigger issue is that it makes Lati@s bland and straightforward. With Sun up, there becomes very little reason not to use Draco Meteor. It has no drawbacks aside from 90% accuracy as it hits harder than any of your other attacks (okay sure, you can PP stall it -.-). Psyshock is only worth mentioning since it still hits Blissey harder, and HP Fire secures kills more easily in the Sun, but otherwise spamming Draco Meteor becomes your easy failsafe option. It makes Lati@s incredibly easy to autopilot, and as such takes away a lot of strategy involving it's use.
It can potentially be countered sure, but on the other hand it creates an unhealthy environment where there is little involvement from the Lati@s user.
Hey you can still use the immortal magnimite (lol jk). But in all seriousness It would give sun a new and dangerous toy to play with. And TTar also would bring in sand which means the -2 Sp.A then pursuit to win . And That becomes the Main thing to counter Draco Meteor Spam. Personally i don't like being forced into using a pokemon. I'm sure you are the same. This is why i agree with you. I mean what are your other options? Heatran? Not even. Rachi? Nope. Blissey? LOL. This is just a bit too powerful for the tier.
That'd be pretty damn ridiculous. Draco Meteor is an outstanding move already, with its drawback obviously being the -2 SpA. While Thunder and Hurricane are extremely powerful moves, they have lackluster accuracy, meaning it is not very safe to use them outside of rain. Draco Meteor on the other hand, is an amazing move already, with great accuracy and one of the strongest moves in the entirety of Pokemon. Taking the -2 SpA away from D Meteor is a much bigger advantage than perfect accuracy on Thunder/Hurricane, and this would allow Specs/Scarf Latios to become an even bigger monster. Notably, Latias is pretty good on Sun right now, and offensive Latias would of course love it as well. Basically, Draco Meteor would become way too spam-able and probably way, way overpowered. Plus, this doesn't really fit flavor-wise. Basically, because of the strength of the move now, to see it get such a great boost would probably be way too powerful.
^Except sun is much weaker than rain right? Sun is less popular than Sand too. Would spammable draco meteors be "broken" enough to make Sun the dominant play style?
O.K. Next subject, What if there was never the existence of Choice items? I think that there will be a lot less viable pokemon. Rotom-W will no longer be able to cripple a wall by Tricking a wall. Stall will be that much more viable [ ] <-- actual size . Specs will no longer be an issue. No longer guessing what set any Revenge killer will be. But you lose a lot of late-game sweepers. It will probably rise some pokemon and lower some pokemon. Gene,Lando-I would probably still be OU though i'm not sure on Gene. There will be basiclly be No revenge killers. Spammable moves are still spammed unfortunately. Those are my thoughts.