Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Chou Toshio]

150 Speed + Spikes / SR. I think it's pretty clear that Deoxys would have no trouble setting up hazards unless met with a scarf or priority user in every lead match up (or Chopple TTar).

Even if much less effective than DEO-S / A, Deoxys definite has the tools it needs to get the job of a deoxys form done.

 

[dinodino56]

Deoxys in OU seems like it could fit in pretty good. You would probably have to run Focus Sash, or you could run scarf to be the fastest Scarfer in the OU Tier. Even then you have Priority and Tyranitar. I think it would be ok in OU.

 

[Shurtugal]

I agree with Chou Toshio. I mean, if SMEARGLE can set up hazards, I'm pretty sure DeoN could do it too.

 

[Pocket]

I mean, Deoxys-D barely got banned from OU for its prowess at Spike-stacking (it failed to hit super-majority). Deoxys certainly wont be setting up more than 1 layer of hazard with its shitty bulk. The only reason why Deoxys-S was able to pull it off was because of its stellar 50 / 90 / 90 defenses (as opposed to Deoxys's 50 / 50 / 50 defenses), combined with its ability to move before even majority of the scarfers (it's faster than Scarf Chomp).

In the other hand Deoxys gets revenge-killed by Scarf Rotom-W, and wont be tanking multiple weak hits the way Deoxys-S could. I assure you that Deoxys wont be setting up multiple hazards.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Pocket, what are you talking about? Are you just playing dumb?

Sash. Nothing that naturally outruns you. As mentioned, Deoxys will always get up 2 unless they have priority or scarf (or a hail/sand abuse that can OHKO and survive superpower from 150 base ATK). Even Deo-A can set up hazards effectively in Ubers in the right conditions.

Even if it's not AS good at hazards as S or D, it is more flexible than them as it can go on a vicious rampage given the right conditions.

No offense, but this subject isn't even that interesting since all the deoxys formes have already been tested . . .

Sorry, but this is just not interesting compared to more abstract theorymoning. There's no creativity involved in "what if x got unbanned?"

 

[Shurtugal]

Also, Smeagle has shitter defenses and lower speed and still gets multiple hazards up. Maybe it's entirely thanks to Spore, but I'm sure if smeargle had more speed it'd get i[ multiple hazards w/o spore too.

 

[Pocket]

Focus Sash - you can 2HKO with priority or any moderately fast scarfer. You can u-turn / volt switch to said priority or scarfer. Either way only one layer of hazards are going up. Most teams have a Scarfer or priority, so I don't get why it would be so difficult to take Sash DeoN down before it can set up a second layer.

With Deoxys-S, you had to solely rely on priority pretty much if you wanted to prevent the 2 layers, since it will outrun most scarfers.

If you're not interested, you're free to introduce your own topic n_n

 

[saxtonhale]

Things like Deoxys-A would rupture OU completely. With proper coverage, the thing could pull 6-0s out of its ass.
I don't think Deoxys-D was Uber worthy, but the others surely belong in the realm of Ubers imo.

Pocket EDIT: I am talking about Deoxys, not Deoxys-A

My bad. I think Deoxys would still be a little overpowered for OU, but perhaps it could work with some testing.

 

[StrawHatIan]

My question is: What if Alakazam got Aura Sphere?
Alakazam is already a threat as it is, with great speed, power, coverage and Magic Guard. It has to rely on Focus Blast or the weak HP Fighting for its fighting coverage. With Aura Sphere, it would have a reliable, strong special fighting-type move and it would help out a lot in general.
That's just my two cents

 

[JustLetMePlay]

My question is: What if Alakazam got Aura Sphere?
Alakazam is already a threat as it is, with great speed, power, coverage and Magic Guard. It has to rely on Focus Blast or the weak HP Fighting for its fighting coverage. With Aura Sphere, it would have a reliable, strong special fighting-type move and it would help out a lot in general.
That's just my two cents

I've been jonesing for this forever. Nothing more frustrating than an opponent sending in an obvious losing matchup, only for Focus Blast to miss.

 

[Tassa]

It would be unable to OHKO bulkytar and I would be happy, because breaking his damn sash is sometimes frustrating, but once it is done he his not such a problem. In general it would probably be better (these miss are just so frustrating when you are the user of mon with Focus Blast), though calcs need to be done about which OHKO are lost or not.

 

[Flygoner818]

What if Lati@s got U-turn?

I know it doesn't seem like much, but let's consider how they would be played:

Lati@s are premier revenge killers, wall-breaker, and set-up sweepers. They can literally 1-2HKO the entire OU meta with the right move and the right set. But what holds them back? They often finds themselves either using Draco Meteor or Calm Mind on a switch into Tyranitar or Scizor, and are neutered, either forced to switch and risk being Pursuit-trapped, stay in and be picked off by priority, or switch to a possible check to take heavy damage.

However, U-turn makes using these two dragons much less of a headache. If played conservatively, you could always have the upper hand, never losing momentum in the early game because you lost your Lati@s prematurely. Plus, they make a great VoltTurn core with Rotom-W and Scizor, with no composite weaknesses and tons of offensive momentum.

edit: Hydreigon and Flygon, the other two levitating dragons, both get U-turn. Really, it just makes sense.

 

[Schpoonman]

That would certainly help. You'd need still wouldn't get through SpDef Tyranitar if he switched in safely, but you'd put the hurt on him before he took you down.

 

[George Eliot]

Latios with U-turn is leaning towards broken I think. Can you imagine it combined with Magnezone? Even without it, it only has to U-turn out of Jirachi a couple of times with SR up before it can't switch in safely, and that would be it's absolutely best check.

What if Torkoal got Scrappy?

Torkoal is one of those defensive Pokémon that has lots of potential but is generally terrible. Fire typing on a Rapid Spinner is great, forcing out Skarm / Jirachi / Forretress / Ferrothorn / Roserade. It also gets Stealth Rock, Lava Plume, and seriously solid physical bulk (70/140). Unfortunately, it's SR weakness, fairly poor special bulk, unremarkable offenses and lack of any recovery make it completely outclassed in OU.

Scrappy changes all that, making it into the ultimate anti-Custap lead and the most reliable Rapid Spinner bar SubToxic Tenta in Rain. It's hazard weaknesses and general terrible typing would prevent it from being incredibly popular, but it would certainly be a viable choice on some teams when partnered with the likes of Wish Latias (which it makes an almost perfect combination with). It can also play a defensive role, easily walling Scizor, Physical Rachi, and Breloom, BU Conkeldurr if it has Clear Smog, etc.

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Bold Nature, 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Clear Smog / Protect / Yawn etc

 

[dwarfstar]

Unfortunately, Torkoal would still be pretty terrible even with Scrappy. A Stealth Rock weakness is a huge liability for a Spinner, and most of the Pokemon in the top 20 screw it over through supereffective strikes or strong special moves. The ubiquity of rain and sand teams doesn't help its case either. Torkoal, sadly, is outclassed at everything it tries to do. Starmie, Tentacruel, and even Forretress are much better spinners, it's outclassed as a physical wall by Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Hippowdon, and there are many SR setters more reliable than the tortoise. In order for Torkoal to be anywhere close to viable, it would need Magic Guard, rather than Scrappy.
...A final nail in the coffin: Scrappy makes no sense for Torkoal flavor-wise either.

 

[Chou Toshio]

If you're not interested, you're free to introduce your own topic n_n

I was genuinely serious about talking about Rock immune Moltres until someone rained on the party...


Anyway, moving right along... better thank torkoal...

A post I originally made in Orange Island in one of the first theorymon threads:

Another Poke I'd like to bring up:

+ Rapid Spin


Stats + Typing: STAB. lol, but besides, Miltank has great Speed and good bulk for a support role, its overall bulk similar to Slowbro's.
Ability: SCRAPPY. With Rapid Spin, Miltank would become the only Pokemon in the game with a flawless Rapid Spin that could not be spin blocked.
Design: Miltank's famous for rolling and spinning-- Rollout was its trademark move in GS, and in the anime. Rapid Spin is an easy design fit.

A set like:

Miltank
@Leftovers
Scrappy
-Rapid Spin
-SR
-Milk Drink
-Return / Toxic / Heal Bell

Maybe?

100 Speed, great overall (especially physical) bulk, instant recovery, awesome support movepool (SR, Heal Bell, Thunder Wave) and SCRAPPY.

Scrappy Rapid Spin would separate Miltank from everything else. It would also allow Miltank to potentially troll people with Herbivore or Thick Fat (since Ghosts will have 2nd guesses about whether to bother switching in).

Rapid Spin also fits perfectly with it flavor-wise. Thoughts on its OU impact?

 

[Schpoonman]

Instantly OU and THE best spinner in the game. It's automatically the best spinner, you can't block it from spinning. This would very literally be metagame defining, as spinblocking becomes a thing of the past. What would that do to Jellicent's usage? Gengar's? Some Ghosts are used for their stats and movepools, but how many more are used for their ability to spinblock? Man, I'd use the shit out of this, that's for sure.

 

[George Eliot]

Unfortunately, Torkoal would still be pretty terrible even with Scrappy. A Stealth Rock weakness is a huge liability for a Spinner, and most of the Pokemon in the top 20 screw it over through supereffective strikes or strong special moves. The ubiquity of rain and sand teams doesn't help its case either. Torkoal, sadly, is outclassed at everything it tries to do. Starmie, Tentacruel, and even Forretress are much better spinners, it's outclassed as a physical wall by Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Hippowdon, and there are many SR setters more reliable than the tortoise. In order for Torkoal to be anywhere close to viable, it would need Magic Guard, rather than Scrappy.
...A final nail in the coffin: Scrappy makes no sense for Torkoal flavor-wise either.

Not entirely agreeing with this. Yeah, the hazard weaknesses are problematic. But it'd still be far and away the best option for dealing with Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, SR Rachi, and a solid counter for the offensive threats I mentioned. It definitely wouldn't be outclassed as a Spinner in that regard, especially given how often Jellicent is paired with those Steel hazard layers. Setting SR and physical walling are just icing on the cake.

Also I would sell my soul for a Rapid Spin Miltank.

 

[Neliel]

rapid spin miltank would be pretty cool. not only it has great stats (not excellent but still good) but also recovery, stealth rock, heall bell, twave... it will still have problems getting past of spikers such as skarmory or ferrothorn as well as offensive stealth rockers, and admittedly it wont have so many opportunity to spin hazards imo, but at least it doesnt have to care about skarmoffense with gengar... its better than spinda at least lol

 

[GCSChris]

@Scrappy Torkoal, i don't think it would be very good. Rain destroys it, it has poor special bulk, and it's only good moves are Stealth Rock, Lava Plume, and Rapid Spin. Lava plume is nice, but fire is a poor defensive type. With scrappy, it's obviously a lot better, but the fire typing really just stops it from being good.

When scrappy Torkoal was mentioned, my mind immediately went to Rapid Spin Miltank. Milktank has great bulk to be an amazing spinner, has great recovery. Instant OU. It's kinda funny to think about that, considering that it is NU. Rapid Spin is just incredibly important.

CAN'T STOP THE SPIN!

 

[Houndoomsday]

Scrappy Torkoal still sucks. I mean it's simply not well adapted to the metagame, and having a niche unblockable rapid spin isn't going to pump it straight to the top, or even see that much usage.

 

[Poplolita]

I would like to know what if vaporeon get regenerator? Will it be too good in volt switch/uturn trap team? Will it once again make vaporeon one of the best water pokemon in Ou like back in gen 4? Will it be the best wish support in the game? I want to know what you guys think about it.

 

[Bulgrom]

Regenerator wouldn't be that great on Vaporeon, because he already has 2 good abilities who are more in "harmony" with his role/movepool.
I mean that Water absorb make of him a good rain check wish passer who can come on one of the many water attacks throwed at you, while hydratation allow him to be a status absorber and a stupid wall (Hydra Rest, srsly), and benefits of his good bulk.

With regenerator, I guess you can act more like a defensive pivot. But I don't think he have the movepool to do so (no U-Turn). Maybe a wish passer who would be able to recover his own life, but he will probably miss water absorb with Politoad everywhere.

So Regenerator Vaporeon might have a niche. But definitively not broken or highly meta affecting.

 

[Electrolyte]

What if Ninetales got Morning Sun?
I mean, it does make perfect sense. Ninetales is known as the bringer of Sun- and its ability pretty much creates massive burst of sunlight throughout the whole field for literally the rest of the match, or at least until something else changes the weather. It's really a wonder why Ninetales didn't get this move which seems to fit so perfectly with it.

Potential set:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Calm / 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpDef
Will-o-Wisp / Flamethrower / Roar / Morning Sun

Sun is generally regarded as one of the hardest weathers to sustain, disregarding Hail. The existance of Stealth Rock as well as the fact that sweepers from Rain and Sand hit Ninetales for super-effective damage make switching Ninetales in and out a very risky endeavor when facing experienced opponents. Ninetales is the easiest to wear down, as it lacks solid recovery outside of Pain Split and Rest, and is weak to Stealth Rock.

But what if we changed that and gave Ninetales not only Recover but something better- Morning Sun? Ninetales's own Sun boosts the recovery of Morning Sun from 50% to 66%- letting Ninetales easily recover itself and shrug off Stealth Rock damage. Morning Sun also makes Ninetales much more competitively viable, letting it tackle top tier special attacking threats such as Lati@s, Keldeo, Alakazam, Starmie, and Thundurus-T with much more ease. Morning Sun would turn Ninetales from "the third wheel" into a Pokemon with viability rivaling that of our current Politoed or Tyranitar.

By making Ninetales last longer, we will be greatly increasing the effectiveness of Sun. Ninetales will be able to switch in to Stealth Rock as many times as it needs, as 1 Morning Sun gives it enough recovery to switch in three more times, factoring in Leftovers recovery. This will make Sun much stronger, and therefore, Sun sweepers will become much more frightening. Pokemon such as Venusaur, Lilligant, and Volcarona will rise in usage, and Rain and Sand will probably fall. Sun will become a weather just as strong as Rain and Sand.

It wouldn't be broken though- as Morning Sun only provides 25% recovery if the weather is changed by switching TTar or Politoed in. Also, Morning Sun only has a measly 8 PP, so it's not as Ninetales can really recover Stall with it. Either way, giving NInetales MOrning Sun would definitely have a significant effect on the metagame.

 

[TSovereign]

What if Jynx had Water Absorb or Adaptability ?

<img src="http://media.pldh.net/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/124.gif" alt="jynx" />

I think since Jynx is a humanshaped pokemon, that she can have human like features, like drinking water, this would make Jynx a fierce competitor. I have two short scenarios that I came up with that could utilize a Water Absorb Jynx.

Double Battles/Triple Battles (I don't do double battles or triple battles but consider this)
Simple just Surf Jynx to full HP when endangered

Regular Battles
You can safely switch in Jynx on Water attacks (duh!)
this will make Jynx a threat every water pokemon that doesn't have any moves of Jynx's weaknesses.
Imo like Fire-Types, Water-Types make their way on everybody's team and its extremely unlikely Jynx will be able to counter Mons like Heatran, Houndoom, etc. At least you will potentially counter many Water Mons. Assuming they're not prepared for Jynx.

Now for Adaptability
I have nothing to support it, it was a blurb in my mind and its a personal opinion of mine that Jynx deserves more respect being the only Ice/Psychic mon in the game. Adding 2x to Psychic, Dream Eater & Ice Beam seems like a good thing to put on Jynx's resume.

Well I'm new and thx. I'm very open to criticism