Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Gary]

With all this talk about Tinted Lens, it reminded me of something a friend and I made up a while back.

What if Escavalier got Tinted Lens?

Escavalier @ Choice Band
Trait: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Sleep Talk/Pursuit
- Return

This set DEFINES power, dealing damage comparable to the mighty Kyurem-B on resisted hits. Here's an example of his power: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 189-223 (53.38 - 62.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. I'll put more calcs down below, but that alone should show you just how powerful this mother fucker is. Sure this big guy is slow as molasses, being out sped by even Forretress, however, what he lacks in speed he excels in both attack and bulk. Being able to 2HKO pretty much all of its counters with just one move is pretty out standing, and although Escavalier will most likely only be bumped up to UU if he was given Tinted Lens, he'd be much more potent in OU then he is now. Megahorn KOs pretty much anything unresistant, and KOs MORE that do resist it, ironically. Iron Head is for dual STAB, and lets Escavalier deal huge damage to the likes of Terrakion, Kyurem-B, and even 3HKO Skarmory. Sleep Talk is a really nice move as bait against Breloom since any move Escavalier uses will always KO Breloom. Pursuit will rarely be used, but it's useful against Jellicent who wont want to risk getting Megahorned to the face. Return has now become even more powerful, and Escavalier isn't hindered nearly as much when locked into Return since it still hits Steel types really hard.

Some good partners to Escavalier would be Heatran and Politoed, both who can deal with Fire-types, while Politoed gives Escavalier only a x2 weakness to it. Speaking of Heatran, he's about the best counter you could possibly get. He's 2HKOed by Return, but he can come in on full health and threaten it. Cobalion is actually one of the best counters as well, since Iron Head does the most to it, but fails to 2HKO it. Gengar can be a great check to it with HP Fire, while also countering it when its locked into Return. Jellicent can also come into Return and burn it with Will-O-Wisp, but it can't come in on Megahorn. Like mentioned earlier, Escavalier wouldn't become a top tier threat if it were given Tinted Lens because of its awful speed, but with proper support and bulk investment, Escav is like the ultimate nuking machine that can break down any wall imaginable. This thing would just be straight up broken on Trick Room teams though, so that's always nice.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Iron Head vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 127-150 (38.83 - 45.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 309-364 (76.67 - 90.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 179-211 (46.49 - 54.8%) -- 8.98% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 363-427 (112.03 - 131.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 331-391 (96.5 - 113.99%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Steelix: 145-172 (40.96 - 48.58%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm bringing this back up, because I believe it deserves more discussing then it got. Although we are already testing an Escavalier set, I think this one would have a different kind of niche in OU as one of the greatest wall breakers to ever come to the tier. It would still have its ups and downs, but dude, just look at the fucking calcs.

 

[MicfiJasan]

Some quick thoughts about stuff:

Snow Warning Kyurem: Although it doesn't really fit with the other two weather-inducing Ubers, it's arguably the best buff within the limits of this thread. 100% accurate Blizzards are a huge plus for Kyurem, and being able to OHKO all other weather starters with Specs is great since it means the team doesn't have to abuse Hail to succeed with it, since it can keep its weather up pretty reliably, since none of them can switch in. Wobbuffet will likely rise in usage as a trapper for Kyurem since it's the only trapper so far capable of surviving a Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor.

And for one of my own:

What if Mew had Imposter? We all know that Imposter is a powerful ability, giving Ditto a small niche in every tier and making Chansey/Blissey arguably the best Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons. While Ditto is nice as a revenge killer, it's HP stat still carries over and sometimes makes it lackluster. Mew is not only the best option flavorwise (it's the only other Pokemon that can learn Transfrom naturally) but it could fit in quite well into OU. The extra HP allows him to maybe survive a hit after knocking something out. Random example: after transforming into Alakazam, it can always survive a Bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados Waterfall and 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Makes counter-sweeps just that much easier. That said, while the bulk is nice, it doesn't mean it's a huge upgrade. It's advantage over Ditto is dealing with pokes who can't OHKO themselves after a boost, which may not be too big of a group given the metagame.

EDIT @below: The flavor was playing at the unofficial relationship between Mew and Ditto (and frankly I didn't see anyone better for it). It should also be noted that this wouldn't replace Synchronize (think of it as a DW ability). I see the competition for a set, but extra niches never hurt. Regardless of the set used, players would have to think twice about setting up with a Mew on the opposing team.

 

[Spuun]

What if Mew had Imposter?

Im not too sure I would want to give up Mew's greatest aspect; its versatility. Being able to run so many different sets due to a vast movepool and stats to abuse it is pretty much the main reason to use Mew at all. Giving that up for a bulkier counter-sweep is just offsetting.

However, I can see where the extra hp is useful; counter-sweeps would be much easier accomplished with base 100 hp rather than 48. In fact, having base 100 puts you above most of the things you can switch in to steal their boosts/identity.

So the main argument here in my opinion is General Versatility + Unpredictability vs Bulkier Counter-Sweeps (with a great deal more ease), wherein I feel option 1 to be much more beneficial to most teams because it doesnt as much rely on the opponent's team, and can run a specific set to benefit your team.

 

[ogasian]

Tinted Lense Escavalier: This thing would single-handedly wreck stall, even more than Reuniclus. It could simply sit there and spam Banded Iron Heads, being immune to Toxic, Sandstorm, and having a good chance to OHKO Jellicent after SR with Megahorn. Although Heatran could check it, the lack of reliable recovery would allow it to be worn down very easily. Could Fire Fang Gliscor become a thing? On a different note, it would be pretty good against HO, having that sexy Bug/Steel typing and decent defenses. If nothing on stall can take a hit, it would be like a better Banded Kyurem Black. (Yes I know Kyurem Black is an amazing mixed attacker, I was talking about the band set specifically.)
I'll post some calcs when I have the time. FUCK high school!

 

[Mikasa]

Well, I'm glad I didn't broke any rule when talking about SW Kyurem, now for the new theorymons:
Tinted Lens Escavalier: Insane power, it's a shame this thing doesn't learn Gyro Ball so it would be even more amazing, Escavalier actually has a great type and good bulk so even against offense it would be able to at least get a kill most of the time by surviving a hit and KOing back, against stall I don't even need to say just look at Gary's calcs, also buffing TR is always nice.

Imposter Mew: The greatest benefit is that it adds even more to Mew versatility (assuming it is an added ability rather than a replacement), because now I don't know if I'm safe to setup or not, I may go the entire game without Dragon Dancing with my Gyarados and then lose the chance to win the game only to discover it was a regular Mew, or I can try to setup thinking it is not Imposter then get counter-swept.

 

[GCSChris]

What if Mew had Imposter?

I don't really see how this makes sense flavor-wise

What if Escavalier got Tinted Lens?

I still remember this one; it's probably the best theorymon in this whole thread (or rather, has the most potential). Escavalier would just be so incredibly powerful. you just can't ignore this power:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Steelix: 145-172 (40.96 - 48.58%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'd really like to see Tinted Lens Escavalier made as one of the tested Theorymons.

 

[ErraticMagic]

What if Mew had Imposter?

Sorry but more HP still doesn't solve a lot of problems that are seen with Ditto. Practically useless against stall, only speed-ties without being locked into scarf, blocked from transforming by substitute, limited to 5 pp a move. Not to say that it would be all that bad, just not that much of an improvement over Ditto.

A bit of a stretch but I'm putting it out there anyway.
What if DeepSeaTooth doubled the Special Attack of Gorebyss?
In terms of Shell Smash sweeping Gorebyss wouldn't too amazing without rain because it forgoes White Herb and is outsped by any relevant scarfer without Swift Swim activated, but those rain-boosted Hydro Pumps...

252+ SpA DeepSeaTooth Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 274-324 (38.92 - 46.02%) -- 21.48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA DeepSeaTooth Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem-B in rain: 227-267 (50 - 58.81%) -- 74.22% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi in rain: 212-249 (52.47 - 61.63%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO

All of the water immunities are 2HKOed by the appropriate coverage move; it even learns Shadow Ball for some reason in case of Specially Defensive Jynx. It also learns Agility to boost it's speed without dropping it's defenses pretty much making it the regular Shell Smash sweeper with a lot more initial power. However, I don't see it being too broken outside of rain since it's really slow and not particularly bulky.

 

[Flaming Facepalm]

A few things. Apologies if any of these have been done.


1. What if Rayqauza lost his Flying typing?




2. What if the Special split never happened?

 

[Magcargo]

A few things. Apologies if any of these have been done.


1. What if Rayqauza lost his Flying typing?




2. What if the Special split never happened?

1. Rayquaza isn't OU.

2. The no"Special split" thing is too metagame changing to be considered for a theorymon.

 

[Gary]

1. Rayquaza isn't OU.

2. The no"Special split" thing is too metagame changing to be considered for a theorymon.

I'm assuming he's asking if Rayquaza would be OU if it became just a plain Dragon-typing.

A few things. Apologies if any of these have been done.


1. What if Rayqauza lost his Flying typing?




2. What if the Special split never happened?

The answer to that is fuck no. Rayquaza doesn't really need its Flying-typing for anything other than being immune to entry hazards like Spikes and T-Spikes, and without the Flying-typing, it would no longer be weak to SR, Rock-type moves, and 4x weak to Ice Shard. Basically, Rayquaza would actually be better, so no, Rayquaza would not drop to OU if it were to be a Mono Dragon-type. It would be like a Haxorus on roids.

 

[Seraph's Fire]

What if Meloetta got Quiver Dance?

It would make some sense flavor wise as Meloetta is the music/dancing pokemon, and I think that Meloetta would be at least on par with Volcarona as a Quiver Dance sweeper for several reasons:

• Better special bulk (100/128 vs 85/105), letting it perform more effectively as a bulky Quiver Dancer.
• Better coverage, letting it hit threats such as Heatran that resist Volcarona's standard moveset.
• Independence of weather. While Volcarona is hampered by rain or sun depending on it's set, Meloetta functions in either, letting it be more effective if you lose the weather war or run a weatherless team.
• Unpredictability. Meloetta can still run a standard Relic Mixed set over a Quiver Dance set, making it more difficult to counter than Volcarona until you know what set it's running.
• Psyshock. Meloetta can hit the blobs harder than Volc could ever dream to by targeting their defense stat.
• And most importantly, neutrality to stealth rock. Volcarona's biggest flaw is taking half it's health on switch in, something Meloetta doesn't need to worry about.

However, Meloetta wouldn't outclass Volcarona completely, because Volcarona hits harder (120 power STAB off 135 Spa VS 80 Power STAB off 128 Spa) and boasts instant recovery and a fighting resistance. It would certainly be interesting having a completely weather independent Quiver Dancer, however, and I feel the addition of Quiver Dance to Meloetta's moveset would easily be enough to make it OU.

 

[Meru]

I'd argue that Quiver Dance Meloetta's biggest perk would actually be that it's not revenged by common Choice Scarfers. Latios, Terrakion, Keldeo, and Jirachi would be unable to take it out in one swift hit, letting Meloetta boost to +2 and finish them off.

I think Scarfchomp does get the Outrage KO, but I also think Meloetta can invest enough in Defense to survive this? Too lazy to calc

 

[Seraph's Fire]

I'd argue that Quiver Dance Meloetta's biggest perk would actually be that it's not revenged by common Choice Scarfers. Latios, Terrakion, Keldeo, even Garchomp and Jirachi would be unable to take it out in one swift hit, letting Meloetta boost to +2 and finish them off.

This is true, too. I didn't consider all of the revenge killers running SE moves on Volc compared to Meloetta.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I'd argue that Quiver Dance Meloetta's biggest perk would actually be that it's not revenged by common Choice Scarfers. Latios, Terrakion, Keldeo, and Jirachi would be unable to take it out in one swift hit, letting Meloetta boost to +2 and finish them off.

I think Scarfchomp does get the Outrage KO, but I also think Meloetta can invest enough in Defense to survive this? Too lazy to calc

Eh, no where near actually

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 244-288 (71.34 - 84.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Flaming Facepalm]

Hopefully, this won't cause much flame or anything like that.


Ahem.

What if Lugia was given an Ice/Flying type? He still has the mad bulk, but in return, he does not resist Fighting, he is 4x weak to Stealth Rocks, and he takes Super Effective damage from quite a few formidable attacking types. In return for what? A STAB on Ice Beam. Do you think this would be sufficient in dropping Lugia from Ubers into OU?

 

[Schpoonman]

That's not OU, and I'm still not sure it would drop him to OU.

 

[ogasian]

Hopefully, this won't cause much flame or anything like that.


Ahem.

What if Lugia was given an Ice/Flying type? He still has the mad bulk, but in return, he does not resist Fighting, he is 4x weak to Stealth Rocks, and he takes Super Effective damage from quite a few formidable attacking types. In return for what? A STAB on Ice Beam. Do you think this would be sufficient in dropping Lugia from Ubers into OU?

Lugia would suck balls. Definitely dropping down to OU.

 

[GCSChris]

What if Lugia was given an Ice/Flying type?

While I'm kinda torn, it's abundantly clear that Stealth Rock would become even more important, or at least breaking multiscale with something lik WoW or Toxic. Check out these calcs:

w/o SR

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 308-366 (74.03 - 87.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 206-246 (49.51 - 59.13%) -- 71.09% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 102-121 (24.51 - 29.08%) -- possible 5HKO

w/o Multiscale

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 616-732 (148.07 - 175.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 412-492 (99.03 - 118.26%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 204-242 (49.03 - 58.17%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO

w/ SR

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 616-732 (148.07 - 175.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 412-492 (99.03 - 118.26%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 204-242 (49.03 - 58.17%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This leaves me really undecided, as without multiscale up, Lugia would be really easy to deal with. Then again, if it switches in on something that can't do much to it, and sets up a roost (getting Multiscale back), it could cause trouble. I'm not sure Lugia would be OU, although then again you just need SR up and need to be ready for it switching in.

 

[Yuttt]

Ok, I think I've got a good one.
What if Sharpedo got Swords Dance?

The other two Speed Boosters both have SD (Blaziken, Ninjask), so why not Sharpedo? It's also a SHARK, which is generally considered awesome enough to get SD. Although it can only run it's STABs to have room for both SD and Protect, that doesn't matter, as it can just bulldoze through bulky resists. This would cause it to become nearly unstoppable in the rain after a SD and a few Speed boosts. It also easily beats common rain counters, such as Celebi and Latias thanks to it's stabs. Ferrothorn isn't a safe switchin either after a SD, as it's 2HKO'd by Waterfall. Some calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 331-391 (110.7 - 130.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in rain: 289-340 (89.19 - 104.93%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Jirachi in rain: 477-563 (118.06 - 139.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in rain: 178-211 (50.56 - 59.94%) -- 83.59% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 772-907 (212.08 - 249.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 704-829 (174.25 - 205.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, things like Breloom and D-Nite will always beat it with Mach Punch and E-Speed respectively, and it will be hard to get the SD with the frailness of the Shark. But it 2HKOs the entire tier after SR and a SD boost in the rain. How good would it be?

 

[sadoldpoygon22]

What if Lucario got Fire Blast and Flamethrower?
It fits it rather well since it does get many mouth moves and "pulse" moves; would this affect its coverage greatly? I mean it gets Dragon Pulse and the elemental fangs.

 

[BurningMan]

Luke with Flamethrower/Fire Blast would barely have any impact. Lucario already has perfect coverage with Aurasphere/Dark Pulse for his NP set and most things you hit for SE damage with fire type moves are hit neutral or SE with Stab Aurasphere so it would barely add any useful coverage if anything it would want Ice Beam to deal with Gliscor/Lando-T/Hippowdon/Dragonite better as this could also be used on the SD set which is by far superior to the NP/Special sets, because it packs a lot more power due to CC and Extreme speeds higher base power.

 

[Groudon ex]

Ok, I think I've got a good one.
What if Sharpedo got Swords Dance?

Although it seems like it could potentially be an incredible wall breaker, in practise SD Sharpedo would be nearly impossible to pull off because it has virtually non-existent defenses. When even most resisted attacks are doing more than 50% to it, you can't really set up on anything safely bar choice-locked Psychic type attacks. At least Blaziken had a number of useful resistances which could let it set up on stuff like Scizor, Jirachi (without Psychic STAB) and Ferrothorn, wasn't weak to any common priority moves, and didn't have such pitiful bulk. Your only real chance would be to set up on a predicted switch, but that's still an incredible risk to take. The standard LO set with Protect/Waterfall/Crunch/Zen Headbutt already tears through teams with rain and hazard support, so the extra attack boost is a little overkill for the most part.

 

[G-Von]

Luke with Flamethrower/Fire Blast would barely have any impact. Lucario already has perfect coverage with Aurasphere/Dark Pulse for his NP set and most things you hit for SE damage with fire type moves are hit neutral or SE with Stab Aurasphere so it would barely add any useful coverage if anything it would want Ice Beam to deal with Gliscor/Lando-T/Hippowdon/Dragonite better as this could also be used on the SD set which is by far superior to the NP/Special sets, because it packs a lot more power due to CC and Extreme speeds higher base power.

Just a nitpick, Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere is not perfect coverage; Heracross and Toxicroak resist it. Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere, which Lucario gets, would be perfect coverage.

 

[OverMind]

What if Rotom-F had Serene Grace? Or for that matter, any ability other than the redundant Levitate?

 

[ShootingStarmie]

In OU its still outclassed by Zapdos and Thundurus-T. Maybe gaving access to Hurricane could set it apart (even then I'd still say its outclassed), but iirc it only gets Air Slash. Not good enough for OU imo.