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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

Hmm....This threads been inactive for a while.
what if lunar dance restored 50% of cresselia's health as well as removing any status from it?
Ou viable or just broken?
 
Probably broken. Give it a reliable healing move (Moonlight gets stalled out in weather) on top of Refresh, and make it one neat little package?
 
I wouldn't say this would make Cress broken at all. It's still easily countered by top threats like Scizor, Tyranitar, and Jirachi. Sure not being able to status Cress is a pain, but the same could be said for Blissey (who's basically immune to status and has reliable recovery). Now I know the two a kinda different, but it's generally how I'd look at Cress with this buff to Lunar Dance.
 
Well, it was the matter that you could no longer cripple it with Toxic, but unlike Latias it doesn't need to take two turns to heal and then remove status, or remove status and then heal. It does both in one turn and it's not reliant on weather. Moreover, Cresselia is so insanely bulky that only super effective attacks (Scizor's U-turn), attacks that are insanely powerful by default (Kyurem-B's Outrage), or attacks backed by multiple boosts (Venusaur's +2 Sludge Bomb) are threatening a 2HKO in the first place. It's almost comparable to Giratina.
 
I'm really surprised no one has brought up the thought of Shell Smash Blastoise yet. It makes sense flavor wise and would be pretty strong as well. I could see a set look something like this -

Blastoise (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SAtk / 232 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Shell Smash

With Rain up it's extremely powerful and OHKOs Pokes like Bulky Starmie with +2 Hydro with Rain up. Rain also really benefits Blastoise by minimizing Life Orb Damage taken. Hydro Pump and Ice Beam would be your most used moves as they form a good combo for sweeping but Focus Blast is there mainly just to one shot Ferrothorn even though I could see HP Grass Working for pokes like Jellicent / Gastrodon. To give you an estimate of how strong Blastoise would be, it can OHKO SpD Celebi with +2 LO Ice beam after Rocks 50% of the time and OHKOs Keldeo with Rain Boosted Hydro Pump as well as +2 Focus Blast. It also KOs 28 HP Croak with Ice Beam. I run 232 Speed and Modest which hits 500 Speed since that's really all you need to outspeed Jolly ScarfChomp. You could use timid but the power loss would be really annoying.
 
ThunderBlunder said:
I'm really surprised no one has brought up the thought of Shell Smash Blastoise yet. It makes sense flavor wise and would be pretty strong as well. I could see a set look something like this -

Blastoise (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SAtk / 232 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Shell Smash

With Rain up it's extremely powerful and OHKOs Pokes like Bulky Starmie with +2 Hydro with Rain up. Rain also really benefits Blastoise by minimizing Life Orb Damage taken. Hydro Pump and Ice Beam would be your most used moves as they form a good combo for sweeping but Focus Blast is there mainly just to one shot Ferrothorn even though I could see HP Grass Working for pokes like Jellicent / Gastrodon. To give you an estimate of how strong Blastoise would be, it can OHKO SpD Celebi with +2 LO Ice beam after Rocks 50% of the time and OHKOs Keldeo with Rain Boosted Hydro Pump as well as +2 Focus Blast. It also KOs 28 HP Croak with Ice Beam. I run 232 Speed and Modest which hits 500 Speed since that's really all you need to outspeed Jolly ScarfChomp. You could use timid but the power loss would be really annoying.
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While I think this makes sense flavour wise and I love the set, I think you could also mention it's ability to outclass Starmie in an offensive Spinner Role. It would kinda act like Excadrill did in Sand (SD, and Rapid Spin)? I dunno, obviously none of this is fact, but it's something to think about.
 
ShootinStarmie said:
While I think this makes sense flavour wise and I love the set, I think you could also mention it's ability to outclass Starmie in an offensive Spinner Role. It would kinda act like Excadrill did in Sand (SD, and Rapid Spin)? I dunno, obviously none of this is fact, but it's something to think about.
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Hardly, Starmie's superior initial power and speed along with offensive movepool means Starmie's far from outclassed, arguably better.
Blastoise can't pull off a smash + spin set that well because if it wants an actual chance to beat Jelly it needs hp electric or grass ( or ghost or whatever I guess, but really, no. ), it just generally can't get the coverage that excadrill could with just two moveslots.

That being said, I actually really like Blastoise as a rain spinner already, and the mindgames between defensive and offensive make it that much better.
 
ShootinStarmie said:
While I think this makes sense flavour wise and I love the set, I think you could also mention it's ability to outclass Starmie in an offensive Spinner Role. It would kinda act like Excadrill did in Sand (SD, and Rapid Spin)? I dunno, obviously none of this is fact, but it's something to think about.
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Yeah I don't really get this. Blastoise would be an offensive spinner with the ability to sweep late game once its counters are gone, while Starmie is meant to be an offensive spinner that comes in on things that it can scare off with one of its myriad of coverage moves and possibly get off a Rapid Spin. It's fast as hell, doesn't need to waste a turn of setup to become powerful, and it has a ton of coverage to beat out all the spin blockers in the tier, like Jellicent and Gengar. Blastoise can't break through Jellicent for one thing, and without a boost, it's relatively slow and underwhelming compared to Starmie, which sucks. As Spinda said, not being able to beat one of the best spin blockers in OU is a shame. They're hardly comparable to be honest. It would make Blastoise better, but not enough to outclass Starmie by a long shot.
 
what if mesprit got prankster?
In game it wants to "play" by forcing u to chase it across sinnoh and as the emotion mon the ability works.
Competitively, it would be amazing-priority sr is ridiculous, and its decent movepool, somewhat good bulk and power would let it hold its own against ou mons.
Prankster leftovers/light clay
Sr
Reflect
Psyshock/ice beam
Taunt/Light screen/healing wish/uturn
Set up sr and use the best move-reflect reduces pursuit damage,etc.
What r the checks & counters?
 
@Shell Smash Blastoise: Is Rain Dish released on Blastoise? If it is, I'd say Rain Dish would be better than Torrent. Blastoise retains decent bulk even after a Shell Smash, so while Rain Dish doesn't fully heal LO recoil (you still get %3,75 recoil per turn) it can let Blastoise come on top against priority users.

@Prankster Mesprit: +1 screens/SR/status/Healing Wish, U-Turn and 80/105/105/105/105/80 stats? It'd be really good or maybe broken.
 
Sorry I haven't posted in the last couple of days guys-- I've been getting adjusted moving into my new life in China (for the next year). Anyway, I'm here so--

Shell Smash Blastoise was brought up once before, but it's still definitely worth discussing. Put it short, this would be awesome. It wouldn't be OU, but it could definitely see usage. The big trouble for Blastoise is it can't get Shell Smash off the ground without losing the effectiveness of Water Spout-- not without trying to set up on something like Tentacruel anyway; which which would be pointless as bulky water types would sponge Water Spout easily. Shell Smash with Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Hidden Power would still be very lethal though, and with Rain Dish, it would be surprisingly challenging to take down for a Shell Smash sweeper.

Actually, it might even be able to abuse Rain Dish to keep Water Spout's effectiveness up.

Blastoise
Rain Dish
@Leftovers
-Water Spout
-Protect
-Shell Smash
-Ice Beam / Surf

For some bizarre mono-attacking type set abusing Water Spout. Every kill or Protect gives you back a huge amount of HP, letting you power the next one. Or you could just not be dumb and us LO Hydro Pump / Surf. The fact that Rain Dish wipes away all that LO damage would be beautiful.


I'll add another one-- What if Zapdos could get its DW Ability along with Baton Pass?

Highly unlikely since B-Pass is XD exclusive-- but what if? Zapdos could pass along Sp.A boosts just by switching in and passing out.

Zapdos
@Leftovers
-Baton Pass
-Agility
-Thunderbolt
-Roost / Substitute / Hidden Power / Heat Wave
 
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Smashtoise would become really scary in Gen VI. If we assume he's getting a SpA boost in Mega form (quite likely), how good would it just become? What would be even scarier is when the new ability he gets boosts his Hydro Pumps even further. Scary thought.

Prankster Mesprit would become a Pokemon with a hundred niches in OU. Being able to support with Prankster dual screens is already pretty great, but his support movepool is bigger than that. He could make use of a SubCM set, set up priority Trick Room or cause parafusion shenanigans with priority Twave + Swagger (please do not). Luckily he doesn't learn Roar or such a thing or he would basically become a Riolu except way, way better.
 
Robert Alfons said:
Smashtoise would become really scary in Gen VI. If we assume he's getting a SpA boost in Mega form (quite likely), how good would it just become? What would be even scarier is when the new ability he gets boosts his Hydro Pumps even further. Scary thought.

Prankster Mesprit would become a Pokemon with a hundred niches in OU. Being able to support with Prankster dual screens is already pretty great, but his support movepool is bigger than that. He could make use of a SubCM set, set up priority Trick Room or cause parafusion shenanigans with priority Twave + Swagger (please do not). Luckily he doesn't learn Roar or such a thing or he would basically become a Riolu except way, way better.
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This Priority Trick Room can outspeed Roar and Dragon Tail I guess
 
Guys, Prankster only boosts priority by one stage. Trick Room is still -6 (tied with regular Roar/Whirlwind) and Roar/Whirlwind are still -5. Totally different than Prankster Riolu.
 
Actually, Mesprit learns Copycat, so it can indeed work like Riolu with priority phasing, especially with its much better bulk. Just another niche it would get with Prankster.

EDIT: I'm bad at things.
 
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Crap, read Lord of Bays's post wrong. My bad. Either way, Priority Copycat can be useful for other shenanigans, though it's pretty situational.
 
Sorry, I didn't know Mesprit had Copycat, I was saying that (assuming it had a phazing move but not Copycat) it wouldn't be Riolu 2.0 because Prankster only boosts priority by one stage.
 
What if each of Castforms weather forms got a stat buff, as well as getting Hurricane and Hydro Pump?
Like if each had a chance to get a stat buff (each maybe getting stats such as
HP 70
Atk 70
Def 70
SpAtk 110
SpDef 70
Speed 110)
and these as well as good attacks will make Castform usable especially the Water form
 
I wish ;_;

However, even with those stats, it will be completely outclassed in ou by stuff like Tornadus (Higher SpA and Spe, STAB Hurricane over STAB Hydro pump), Keldeo (Higher SpA and same Spe, no Hurricane), and Dragonite (Amazing bulk, Thunder, and STAB on hurricane). Maybe if it transformed into Water/Flying with
 
Castform already has hydropump. While it might be more weather dependent, castform would be amazing in rain having double stab hpump, never miss thunder+hurricane and a sexy 110 speed+spatk.
Does forecast activate before or after sr? If its after then sun would really appreciate a sr neutral fire mon with boltbeam coverage.
Changing type when opponent weathermons switch would make it hard to counter+Using ur opponents' weather to sweep would be hilarious. Definitely has potential.
 
What if there was a water type gigadrain?
Basically 75bp 100acc special water gigadrain. Who would use it and how would it affect the meta?
 
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