This is my first competitive team (OU) and i need alot of help

[Elite 4 Seth]

So like i said, this is my first real OU team and i know it has problems; my main thing is that id rather not be completely cliche if at all possible.

Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

This was the Weavile anti lead that i once loved, however it's effectiveness grew short, and his spot simply could have been filled with something more useful. Heatran is usually played with fire blast, but i decided lava plume provides a burn that destroys metagross along with ensuring death on just about any other lead, and its suprisingly powerful as well. Earthpower is basically there as a sub EQ and its explosion is 1337; ive yet to see it not take down an 80% or less opponent.

Synergy: Heatran provides me with SR, which i didnt really plan on using, however, in testing, i came upon a great deal of Sashers that barely won the match for the opponent. This rids me of that problem and also gives me a helpful secondary dmg as i'm assuming my team should cause alot of switches. He also serves as some damage and resists that will come into play later in the game.

---

Porygonz @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 6 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Tri Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

When i was testing this team, i noticed that i could really use something to stop that rampaging Mence in its tracks. Porygon-z is such an amazing revenge killer. The highest Satk in OU (tied with Alakazam), along with a choice scarf makes him a killing machine. i chose adaptability over download as download really didnt seem to help me with my purpose much.

Synergy: Porygon-Z stops sweepers mid-sweep. He holds Ice beam, which stops Dragon and grounds, Tbolt, for anything in the air, and HP fighting for anything Steel or.. alots weak to fighting, needless to say his type coverage is flawless, and i've provided Tri beam as it gives some nasty Status effects as well as its' access to Adaptablilty and STAB.
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Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Thunderpunch
- U-turn

A scarf flinch Jirachi. I think if you had this on your team with a togekiss people would just quit. with a 60% chance to flinch on somthing that hits dragons for supereffective, this guy is no joke. everything else is basically for type coverage other than u-turn, which is for scouting jirachi counters.

Synergy: This is basically a stall for anything that my dragons fear, and i gotta say my dragonite doesnt fear much. i can switch him in on scizor and metagross pretty easily, and typically Uturn to Zapdos jsut to test the waters, after im sure about their CB i can pound away. wins alot of matches for me.
---

Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP/52 Spd/208 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Heal Bell

This was a Salamence, but he pretty much sucked here in comparison to Dragonite. On top of being cuddly, this dragonite is kind of a beast. i usually get ice beamed or Tbolted, then "WTF"'d all in 3 seconds. actually, this dragon can typically DD twice without any trouble at all then attempt the bulky sweep. He's also a great switch in to his resists because he holds both roost and heal bell. heal bell! Salamence just sweeps and occasionlly walls... wooo.... This thing is so versatile and underestimated it burns my belly.

Synergy: Basically like i said before, i'm not looking to counter specific pokemon, instead, i've opted to Make the spectrum broad so that i can work on the details once i'm in the match, because an extremely good counter is only so good, after your counter is dead... then what? That in mind, This Dragonite is basically meant to catch people of gaurd with its extremely bulkiness, and then retailiate with its wide ranged Dclaw, removing status's is a nice slap on the dick.
---

Kingdra (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk/16 Spd/240 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Waterfall
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor

I've tried this Kingdra with a few sets, and regardless or not of whether i want to pursue this set specifically, ive decided that I need Rain dance, it just fits too perfectly into the team. The rain not only provides boosted speed and attack, but also weakens fire for the rest of my team, but also blocks out sandstorm. This kingdra started out as a mixed rain sweeper, and i've switched to a double danced physical, which was good, but i think this is just the best. He can literally can babies cry just by making it rain on them hoes =] This set, in all honesty is broken, and i almost think he should be Uber, buttttt wtf, hes not. This rips through just about anyone barring vaporeon.

Synergy: The rain on this Kingdra is whats really the key. With DD, i'm still getting pelted by sand, as is the rest of my team, which put me at a pretty weak spot to the likes of hippowdon. The rain will sweep away the sand, provide me with a boost to my already STAB waterfall, and a +2 speed boost. At first, my concern was, with that those boosts will fade, so i tried a dragon dance, but the rest of my team suffered dearly for it, and since its a team and not just Kingdra sweeping, he needed to give a little, and its worked marvelously as kingdra is already pretty bulky, meaning he can take the hit while setting up the rain. my only really big concern is that he gets paralysed, which renders is repulsing speed useless. while Dragonite can cure this, i think rain support would be pretty nice to just run in and sweep the shit out of things.
---

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/220 Def/38 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]


Originally a Glaceon, but i've changed that along with a ton of other things on this team. He's my Physical wall, but not to be taken to lightly. Whilst this Zapdos can sure as hell take a kick in the nuts, he also rids me of things like Swampert, in fact, his attacking moves are really useful in the midst of a battle, as most of the physical attackers i switch into dont really have what it takes in the Spdef department.

Synergy: Bulky Bulky bird. Fits practically perfect as he's able to switch in for both metagross and blissey if they ever get into an trouble, which of course people will try and do. This is blissey's "yang" =]
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Please give me a hand, i'm looking for any suggestions and i'll definately try just about anything. I know the team is kinda Cliche, but id like to steer away from that if you have any ideas, mainly for the suprise on my opponent. kthxiloveyoubye =]
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Update: Been doing alot of expirimenting lately, thanks for all the help, this is where my team stands now.

 

[Eternal]

First, I would like to suggest that you play competitive battling more often. ShoddyBattle can significantly improve your experience in competitive battling.

As for your team, I will not try to fix every aspect of your team and create a new, more solid team because it seems like you've randomly selected a bunch of Pokemons to your team. But, I will improve it and would like for you to test it on ShoddyBattle and increase your experience on the current metagame.

Primarily, you lack a Stealth Rock supporter. I'd suggest replacing your Metagross to a lead support Metagross. You may want to use the Lead set provided by Smogon, here: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/metagross

As for Weavile, I suggest the Revenge Killer set provided here: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/weavile

Your team is weak to stall. Thus, I recommend New Mixmence, provided here: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/salamence

 

[Revolution.Z]

Switch the Lum and the LO on kingdra and mence around. Lum on Mence can only be used for outrage and generally Mence is used for late game stuff. Kingdra however can benefit from this as it blocks status.

Though Glaceons sp atk may look appealing it generally doesnt have the speed or bulk to make up for it with 4 weaknesses to ground and only 1 immunity it may be worth your while to put a levitater or flier here. Gengar? Perhaps Zapdos but either way you need a flier over Glaceon. Thunder on Lanturn isnt always good as it loses a lot of accucary generally t-bolt is better. Hmm Maybe opt for e-vire or jolteon here if you still want ur electric immunity im suggesting these 2 as they both are immune to electric attacks and are generally more useful in terms of sweeping and denting teams

GL

SF

 

[theimplications]

I run the same kingdra sometimes. Except that mine has DD in place of rain dance and you could switch draco meteor for outrage. In fact, have you looked at the ubers set for kingdra on this site?

 

[Elite 4 Seth]

So thanks a bunch to StrategyFocus, ive switched my items on my dragons and its been working pretty nicely. i also changed my glaceon to a Zapdos, as you'll see after i edit this, and i've been attempting to change lanturn.

Her purpose was both a special sponge with some pretty handy immunities and resists, and to status, mainly paralyze. i just feel like theres something out there that can do that job a bit better. i've considered cresselia, and tried registeel status set, and im still at a loss, so any help there would be great.

 

[Oddish On Fire]

Very original team, but more in depth descriptions would help with rating it. A paragraph on each pokemon including a general strategy at the bottom would let me understand your team much easier. Also, adding where their synergy is helps too. Once you let me know these things, I'll be sure to help you Elite (:

 

[DarkSniperX]

take out hydro pump for kingdra, and take out choice band for Metagross (it's so predicatble--a skarmory would rape that with stealh rock plus spikes)

try to build more on the rain dance strategy

EDIT: I would give Salamence a Yache berry for those Ice shards and/
or focus sash users who know ice type moves...

 

[Oddish On Fire]

My biggest problem with your Weaville is counter. With a mono-attacker after fake out, Weaville can't face much. I would put a different move on him to add longetivity. EX: Pursuit or Night Slash.

Metagross is fine, but why do you want agility on him if he's choice banded? I would advise something different if you really want to attempt sweeping.

Cresselia is fine, but why solarbeam and sunny day? Definitely change that if you're not using a sunny day team. Losing two moves for just solarbeam cripples his use quite a bit.

Regarding Kingdra and Salamence, switch them (:

Use a Mixmence in place of Kingdra (who is much worse at it than Salamence), and use a DD Kingdra (:

Problem. Solved.

Other than that, I don't see much of a problem. Synergy means what attacks go to who though (:

For instance, if Zapados is weak to rock attacks, what pokemon will you switch to to absorb the rock attack. However, your version of synergy added some much needed description.

Good luck!

 

[mc2094]

Weavile is no longer that good of an anti-lead. Leads such as metagross and jirachi can take it down with little trouble. Jirachi will be able to threaten with trick while metagross can always beat you in prediction. The main purpose for weavile lead was to beat the many sash leads that existed. Currently though, there are three sash leads. Aero, Azelf, and Infernape and azelf is the most common while the other two aren't seen too much. I think your better off running gross in this slot.

Metagross@Occa Berry
Adamant
252 Hp/228 Atk/12 Def/16 Spe
-MM
-EQuake
-Bullet Punch
-Explosion

Standard gross lead. I prefer both EQuake and MM with bullet punch because it allows you to deal with the most common leads but you can always try something else if you want. Your team also lacked a stealth rock user which is extremely neccessary to have an easier time with flyers and in order to turn some 2hkos into ohkos.

Next up your cress. I absolutley hate it. seriously though sunny day and solarbeam may be nice and all but it really doesn't help. You waste a turn using sunny day while your opponent goes to their counter. Lets use scizor as an example. Now Scizor hjas you in a position in which all you is switch out. He can U-turn you to death or hit you with pursuit. Tyranitar especially gives you trouble. He will bring in sandstorm and will turn moonlights recovery to 25%. CM just doesn't work here. Your already spending plenty of time setting up for just solarbeam so any more set up isn't needed. I would actually prefer using flameorb cress than this and that thing is horrible. Your better off using the standard cress or you can try something like rest talk.

Although bulky mence is good, he requires a lot of support to function. I think your better off with the standard ddmence or you can use the mixmence set.

Lum berry on mix kingdra? The lack of life orb prevents it from getting all of those KOs listed in the strat. dex so please change it to ife orb. Lum berry is only useful on the sub dd set because it allows it to switch into status and use sub and then proceded to dd up. I don't see how draco sin't getting the needed OHKOs. It is usually supposed to finish off guys like celebi and other walls that may resist hydro pump.
As for zapdos, I would prefer you use the defensivley bulky set. Zapdos just can't sweep. First off he is a special sweeper which already limits his abilities. Then to add to that he doesn't have any way to boost his power. He is pretty much a weaker version of jolteon on the sweeping side with a weakness to sr thrown in. If you use the defensive set than please remember this-Zapdos is NOT a gyara counter. Every time I use gyara against someone with zapdos they send it out. Then they get OHKO by stone edge. So please don't make the mistake hundreds have made before. GL

 

[Elite 4 Seth]

Ok thanks so far guys still testing all these ideas atm.

First, even though im hearing alot against an anti-lead Weavile, ive gotta say with some decent prediction it seldom fails me; however, i came for suggestions and ive been getting a "try lead gross" for a while, so ill try it out.

also, im gonna try to give the defensive zapdos sset thanks to Mc2094

 

[Revolution.Z]

Hmm I dont see what the Sunny Day is doing for Cressy. Maybe the Solarbeam does look tempting but in general it's not needed. Is it to block the Rain? Well Psychic and T-Wave could go over the 2 and in general they could give some nice support to your team and T-Wave could really help getting Kingdra's sweep going.

On litlmc's comment I'm not sure about Mence being able to set up better. Kingdra does have more bulk and better typing and in general it could set up a lot easier. I think changing the sets back is again wise.

With no fire blast on the mence it could go downhill if something like Skarmory comes in. Definately swap Kingdra and Mence back and give Mence the NewMixMence set

New MixMence 84 Atk / 216 SpA / 208 Spe

~ Draco Meteor
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Blast
~ Outrage / Roost Life Orb Mild

It generally doesn't require set up and can dent teams nicely. Kingdra give the DD set.

GL

Sf

 

[Kryuell]

Unless your trying to get more damage for counter, weaville should be Jolly.

Salamence will need Flamethrower or Fire Blast for the likes of Skarmory. Roost doesn't really work well with Salamence (as opposed to Dragonite) so give Salamence a Naughty nature and use these EVs:
252Att / 200Spe / 56SpA

If you keep that Salamence set you have now, he is brutally outclassed by Dragonite.

 

[Elite 4 Seth]

So right now im making a bunch of expirimental changes.

Rest/talk Psychic Twave Cresselia

Physically Defensive Zapdos

DD kingdra, and new Mixmence.

Jolly weavile.

Not sure how well this will work, but i'll definately give it a shot

Thanks to Strategy and Kryuell

EDIT:

Cresselia pretty much failed, as its movepool is just too shallow to give me the diversity that i need. So ive switched to a Blissey, which i'll post in a bit.

im also really diggin the defensive zapdos, it works really great with blissey so far.

the Weavile, i just didnt see any reason at all to switch to jolly, its prety much a suicide lead, so the extra special def doesnt matter at all, sticking with hasty.

Dragon Danced Kingdra, if you look up at the EV's you'll notice that i moved some atk into spdef in order to make him a bit more bulky. Still not positive of this one, though its working decently. theres alot to expiriment with on him still. Life orb, lum, leftovers. hydro pump, yawn, sub. Still expirimenting.

MixMence, this was the one everyone said i absolutely needed, and i like it alot so far. it does really good agaisnt walls and.. yeah. self explanatory i think, although it does lack the power to sweep after my kingdra falls...

I also decided to try a Agili Gross, and what my problem was then, is that i had absolutely no priority moves. What im probly going to end up doing is making a gross lead and filling Weaviles spot with something of a revenge killer as i got decimated by a DD'd Salamence earlier.

also, ive realized that hippodown pretty much is a huge problem with my team... hopfully within that revenge killer spot i can fit in a weakness for him.

 

[Oddish On Fire]

I'm still not necessarilly understanding your reasons for the MixKingdra when Mixmence does so much better. Mence has better...well, everything. The only great thing about Kingdra is its' unique typing. Mence has better SpA, Spd, and Atk. Getting a plus 2 boost in speed is nowhere near as good as getting a plus 1 Atk along with a plus 1 Spd. Sure, it comes with the added bonus of improving the power of your Waterfall's and erasing sandstorm, but 2 of your pokemon are immune to sandstorm anyway. Also, I'm REALLY disliking the set on Dragonite. Dragonite has lower everything then mence, which is why mence is better.

 

[Elite 4 Seth]

I'm still not necessarilly understanding your reasons for the MixKingdra when Mixmence does so much better. Mence has better...well, everything. The only great thing about Kingdra is its' unique typing. Mence has better SpA, Spd, and Atk. Getting a plus 2 boost in speed is nowhere near as good as getting a plus 1 Atk along with a plus 1 Spd. Sure, it comes with the added bonus of improving the power of your Waterfall's and erasing sandstorm, but 2 of your pokemon are immune to sandstorm anyway.

First, let me give you a quote the i got off of RL's House (RaikouLover makes a great deal of amazing sets and is by no means a pushover.)

"his is easily the most deadly mixed sweeper in the game. Nothing demolishes walls like this. If your name isn’t Vaporeon, you don’t stand a chance against this thing."

I've never had anything stand up past a 3HKO on this set, other than vaporeon. Mixmence simply does not pack the power needed to get some critical OHKO's.

Also, I'm REALLY disliking the set on Dragonite. Dragonite has lower everything then mence, which is why mence is better.

This isn't true at all, honestly, i put Dragonite and Salamence at the exact same level of power, but i favor dragonite as his movepool is simply MASSIVE. name another dragon that gets heal bell? thunderwave? SuperPower??? The reason that people sooooo often say the Salamence is superior is because people autmaticaly see dragons or psuedo-legends as all out sweepers. Dragonite can do things defensively that Salamence could never dream to do, and at the cost of hardly any attack, and when this bulkiness is taken into account alongside DD, its easy to see that dragonite is CLEARLY a better Bulky Mix. Salamence does however trump dragonite in the offensive power dpt. But a big reason why people fail to see Dragonites usefulness is because they opt to use a jolly nature, rather than something that compliments its own superior stats.


Not trying to bag on you, im just saying that ive used Salamence in various forms and Kingdra and Dragonite FAR surpass what salamence can do. aside from this, When people see Salamence, they know what it packs, as its pretty much not a threat without EQ/DD/Outrage/fireblast.

I appreciate your help, but please try and use your own mind rather than other's input or assumptions

 

[seds]

I feel like saying that both dragonite and salamence are base 600s. Salamence therefore does not have more of everything.

Not a bad team, although jirachi seems strange. BUT If it ain't broke don't fix it though. Trick destroys walls, you might want to try it out.

I personally would put it over U-turn...

 

[Oddish On Fire]

First, let me give you a quote the i got off of RL's House (RaikouLover makes a great deal of amazing sets and is by no means a pushover.)

"his is easily the most deadly mixed sweeper in the game. Nothing demolishes walls like this. If your name isn’t Vaporeon, you don’t stand a chance against this thing."

I've never had anything stand up past a 3HKO on this set, other than vaporeon. Mixmence simply does not pack the power needed to get some critical OHKO's.







This isn't true at all, honestly, i put Dragonite and Salamence at the exact same level of power, but i favor dragonite as his movepool is simply MASSIVE. name another dragon that gets heal bell? thunderwave? SuperPower??? The reason that people sooooo often say the Salamence is superior is because people autmaticaly see dragons or psuedo-legends as all out sweepers. Dragonite can do things defensively that Salamence could never dream to do, and at the cost of hardly any attack, and when this bulkiness is taken into account alongside DD, its easy to see that dragonite is CLEARLY a better Bulky Mix. Salamence does however trump dragonite in the offensive power dpt. But a big reason why people fail to see Dragonites usefulness is because they opt to use a jolly nature, rather than something that compliments its own superior stats.


Not trying to bag on you, im just saying that ive used Salamence in various forms and Kingdra and Dragonite FAR surpass what salamence can do. aside from this, When people see Salamence, they know what it packs, as its pretty much not a threat without EQ/DD/Outrage/fireblast.

I appreciate your help, but please try and use your own mind rather than other's input or assumptions

Lets' compare base stats of MixMence and Kingdra! Kingdra has a base 75 HP, along with a base 85 speed. The rest are base 95s, which are quite mediocre. So, you have a mixed pokekmon with base 95 stats.AMAZING! and then, to add to it's completely amazing stats, you have Rain Dance filling a spot, AND a move to give you an incredible base 170 speed!!! Now, since speed dominates the metagame, and pure power really doesn't KO pokemon, Kingdra will OBVIOUSLY sweep. Plus,

"Mixmence simply does not pack the power needed to get some critical OHKO's." Also, "I've never had anything stand up past a 3HKO on this set" (when talking about Kingdra) both courtesy of Elite 4 Seth

Salamence has a base 100 Spe, base 110 SpA and a base 135 attack, and you say that nothing demolishes walls like a mixed Kingdra? Well, from what I've seen, walls don't have over a base 85 OR 100 speed typically, so it seems logical using a pokemon that has high base stats in both physical and special attack, considering that speed will not kill a wall. This is why MixMence has gained a reputation (along with Infernape) as being one of the greatest Mix Wallbreakers. Believe it or not, this is logic, not a simple need to be different. If it works, why not use it? MixMence doesn't have to setup to be effiecent. It just has to switch into a pokemon. Advantages include: not being walled by every steel. Though a 3KO sounds totally 1337, recover moves and leftovers beat Kingdra.

"I appreciate your help, but please try and use your own mind rather than other's input or assumptions." Courtesy, yet again, of Elite 4 Seth

Did I copy and paste this, since I, like any other MixMence fan has no idea what they're talking about? NO, I wrote it by myself! Wow, I must be growing up since my last post on your RMT! Maybe one day I'll even appreciate the wallbreaking provided by Kingdra! And that very day, I'll be free from the control of the bourgeoisie and I'll be a pro at Pokemon, just like you!

With Love,

litlmc01

(PS: Want me to talk about Dragonite too?!?)

 

[Elite 4 Seth]

"so it seems logical using a pokemon that has high base stats in both physical and special attack, considering that speed will not kill a wall."

Yes, Salamence has better atk and physical attack, But Kingdra is getting STAB on all of his moves, 2 of which are boosted in the rain, an the third typically takes care of anything else with an OHKO, the speed is such a huge factor as it aids it in continuing a sweep, which is typically its overall goal after all, it's not a wall breaker really, but a powerful sweeper than can take out walls with ease, the 420 speed in rain is really there to ensure it doesnt get stopped by anything during its sweep. Your making Salamence's lack of a need to setup too big of an advantage over Kingdra's ability to sweep effectively with this set.

Base stats are just that, the base of a pokemon, it shouldnt define that pokemons overall usefulness, even though in Dragonites case it provides a pretty obvious comparison that Salamence his more sweep heavy while Dragonite is more defense heavy. The only way that Salamence is superior to Dragonite is if theyre trying to sweep.

please feel free to go on about Dragonite. I appreciate the feedback since im sure hundreds of people are waiting around for this discussion.

 

[Oddish On Fire]

I disagree that Dragonite is a better bulky Dragon Dancer. Dragonite is completely walled by steels due to it's mono-attack and heal bell is an invitation to kill dragonite with no problem. Once again, SpA > Dragonite because Fire Blast will kill steel walls.

"Base stats are just that, the base of a pokemon"

I'm glad we agree on something! Ever heard the phrase "Without a sturdy base, the building will fall"? The basis of something is VERY important. Plently of Pokemon have great movepools yet lack the power to use them. How many times do you see thunderbolt on Registeel? (who has a great movepool) People don't use thunderbolt because Registeel cannot utilize the moves full potential.

You say that Dragonite is also more heavy than heavy sweep? If you're not interested in sweeping with Dragonite, then why use Dragon Dance? The sole purpose of that move is to sweep.

 

[joshe]

Come on Guys, its his team. I'm really surprised at the repetitiveness of the rates here. Can't you all obviously see the he doesn't want to use mixmence? New Mixmence is Shit anyway. There are other ways to help this team. I'm also really surprised that no one has even commented about 2 choice scarfers on this team. Overkill much?

Anyways, DD-mence still rips holes in this team. You think you can outspeed it with Porygon-Z, but many Salamences now run Naive natures making it harder to stop. I'd really just get rid of Porygon-z, and free up a spot in your team. If you're really concerned about DD-mence, just use a Scarfed Latias as your revenge killer:

Latias @ Choice Scarf
Timid
Evs: 4 def/252 spatl/252 spe
- Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Latias will allow you to check threats like dd-mence and dd-gyara(which is a problem to your team if kingdra is weakened, as it can't take a +1 lo earthquake). Gyarados is a big threat for this team because most carry Stone edge while, being a make or break move because of its accuracy, will KO Zapdos with SR. Latias also counters several pokes like infernape and flygon, making it a very effective revenge killer. She also takes care of Skarmory, which when i'm done rating this team, will be a little more annoying.

Ok, it seems to me that your relying on Kingdra as your main sweeper, but it doesn't last very long at all. It'll take a hit setting up rain dance(which it has to have), and life orb will wear it down to nothing.

Jirachi @ leftovers
impish
240 HP/160 Def/76 SpD/32 Spe
- Wish
- u-turn
- Body Slam/T-wave/thunder
- Iron Head/Ice Punch

Jirachi provides wish support for the team and will make kingdras life much easier, allowing it to use life orb and Substitute with impunity. This set uses Jirachis great resistanced and great defenses to pass wishes around to your team members. Its a pretty easy to use this, just use wish then u-turn out to one of your team members(or you can use u-turn to scout or take a hit from a faster opponent, allowing essentially a free switch in for your incoming pokemon). Of course if the opposing pokemon is faster and could OHKO jirachi(mamoswine, DDed Salamence not locked into outrage), you should just switch out. Now there's alot of slashes on the set, these are all the options you could use with wishrachi. The 3rd moveslot is to spread paralysis around with bodyslam having a 60% chance to paralyze anything, therefore making it the superior option. T-wave guarantees paralysis, but doesn't hit grounds, and Thunder only has 70% accuracy, but 2HKOes Skarmory, and has a 60% chance to paralyze non-ground types also. the 4th Moveslot is a tricky one. With Iron Head you can Paraflinch anything paralyzed, and with Ice Punch you can deal with Salamence. Its your choice with this one. Jirachi always survives two Adamant +1 LO Outrages, even with SR, so both are very viable. You can always use body slam to paralyze it, screwing it up for the rest of the match or just take it out with Ice punch. Iron head gives you some insurance against Tyranitar also, possibly flinching it to death with a Super-Effective Iron Head.

With 240 Hp Evs, you hit 401, optimizing leftovers recovery as well as letting it take 5 consecutive seismic tosses. 32 speed evs lets it hit 244, outpacing Jolly Tyranitar and Timid Magnezone, saving you from Magnezones clutches, u-turning before it can hit you. 160 def evs let you survive 2 outrages from +1 LO Adamant salamence.

While Mix-dra is an amazing sweeper(it is better than Mixmence in most cases), its generally better left on rain dance teams, where rain dance is much easier to set up. Kingdra is such an important member to this team, it should be doing some late game sweeping and there is nothing better than DD-kingdra in terms of wall breaking, and survivability(with wish support). It's Bulky enough to get atleast 2 dds in making it very hard to stop.

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Naughty/Adamant
Evs: 252 atk/24 spatk/232 spe(if you decide to use adamant put those 24 spatk evs into hp)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Hydro Pump/Substitute/Draco Meteor/Ice Beam

This kingdra is a very fearsome sweeper, and it can sweep all day thanks to jirachi. I see you've already tried this set so i'm not going to go alldepth in this. Hydro Pump will 2HKO the standard Skarmory. Salamence is OHKOed by Ice Beam, while Celebi is 2HKOed on the switch, provided Stealth Rock is in play. Substitute prevents status, and can often grant you an extra Dragon Dance, and you have jirachi to replenish kingdras health, making sure its not a "one time sweeper." Draco Meteor is in there because its the most powerful of the attacks but the spatk drop makes it a one time use thing and it does not do that much else.

I don't know what to say with Dragonite. Do you want it to sweep or be a wall? I don't think it can do both, and Dragon is too easily walled by steels. You no long have mixed sweeper now, and stall gives you a lot of trouble, so what better than Mixnite?

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Rash
Evs: 112 atk/200spatk/196 spe
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Roost/Thunderbolt

MixNite does many things better than Mixmence, most notably Superpower, which will OHKO even Bold Blissey. It also has better defenses than Mence, and breaks stall very easily. With a Rash nature and 112 Attack EVs, Dragonite is guaranteed to OHKO 0 HP/252 Def Bold Blissey, 252 HP Tyranitar, and 4 HP Heatran after Stealth Rock damage. If you need more reason to use mixnite, thunderbolt is an option over roost hitting gyarados and suicune hard. Draco Meteor does massive damage to Hippowdon, Swampert, and other pokemon expecting a physical attack. Fire Blast/Flamethrower lets it hit steels like Forretress/Bronzong/Skamory, making it the AntiStall pokemon. Roost is prefered over t-bolt though because of Stealth Rock and life orb. The 196 speed evs allows it to outspeed Jolly tyranitar, and all others that sit a 244 to do the same. I would definately prefer this over any mixmence, because you'll have parasupport, and would otherwise have to resort heavily on Kingdra to combat blissey.

I don't have anything to say with Zapdos other than an ev spread change.
EVs: 248 HP/228 Def/32 Spd should suffice. it will make you less weak to stealth rock, and you get 244 which still outspeeds Tyranitar and the like. He Makes an excellent counter to Sd-luke which could 6-0 this team without it.

Well I hope I helped and good luck with the team. If i missed anything or if you need further reasoning as to why you should implement these changes post here asking.

Good Luck =)

 

[Elite 4 Seth]

I disagree that Dragonite is a better bulky Dragon Dancer. Dragonite is completely walled by steels due to it's mono-attack and heal bell is an invitation to kill dragonite with no problem. Once again, SpA > Dragonite because Fire Blast will kill steel walls.

"Base stats are just that, the base of a pokemon"

I'm glad we agree on something! Ever heard the phrase "Without a sturdy base, the building will fall"? The basis of something is VERY important. Plently of Pokemon have great movepools yet lack the power to use them. How many times do you see thunderbolt on Registeel? (who has a great movepool) People don't use thunderbolt because Registeel cannot utilize the moves full potential.

You say that Dragonite is also more heavy than heavy sweep? If you're not interested in sweeping with Dragonite, then why use Dragon Dance? The sole purpose of that move is to sweep.

First, i didnt say they werent important, i just pointed out that all your logic is based on the pokemons base stats, and on the sweeping stats on Salamence, the are bigger, but his movepool is shallow. Dragonite gets 1 less attack, and a much broader movepool, meaning that it has more opportuniries to hit some super effectives, which outweigh the extra point of attack.

Second, Dragon Dance is there simply for versatility. Being able to take Tbolts and Ice beams tremendously better than Mence, Being able to clear the statuses of my entire team, and also bringing a bit more physical power to the table is really quite a feat, im not intending on him being able to take down entire teams alone because thats not his job, but considering his already almost equivalent atk to mence (as opposed to SpAtk), i chose to exploit yet another strength he has making him less predictable and all the more useful because taking a few special hit for the Nite isnt a big deal so setting up 2 Dances is a breeze.

 

[Elite 4 Seth]

Joshe, thanks alooottt. Thank you especially for trying to work with what im trying to do here. actually most of this looks like a pretty good improvement on what i have currently, the only thing i have questions/concerns about is Kingdra.

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Naughty/Adamant
Evs: 252 atk/24 spatk/232 spe(if you decide to use adamant put those 24 spatk evs into hp)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Hydro Pump/Substitute/Draco Meteor/Ice Beam

For one, i basically have concerns about Outrage. While i know its a ridiculously powerful attack, it locks me in, which causes problems as it means my sweeper is easily blocked by steel switch ins. And my other concern is that with the lack of rain Hydro pump wouldnt do nearly as much damage, and also that if i opt for Sub, im losing Sub HP, life orb, and now the possibility of Sandstorm Damage, which overall lessens his reign rather than making it longer... i might be missing something obvious, so please explain a bit? and if you agree with these faults, do you think theres room for jirachi to run Raindance with a Damp rock?

 

[joshe]

Joshe, thanks alooottt. Thank you especially for trying to work with what im trying to do here. actually most of this looks like a pretty good improvement on what i have currently, the only thing i have questions/concerns about is Kingdra.

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Naughty/Adamant
Evs: 252 atk/24 spatk/232 spe(if you decide to use adamant put those 24 spatk evs into hp)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Hydro Pump/Substitute/Draco Meteor/Ice Beam

For one, i basically have concerns about Outrage. While i know its a ridiculously powerful attack, it locks me in, which causes problems as it means my sweeper is easily blocked by steel switch ins. And my other concern is that with the lack of rain Hydro pump wouldnt do nearly as much damage, and also that if i opt for Sub, im losing Sub HP, life orb, and now the possibility of Sandstorm Damage, which overall lessens his reign rather than making it longer... i might be missing something obvious, so please explain a bit? and if you agree with these faults, do you think theres room for jirachi to run Raindance with a Damp rock?

Well, for starters, Outrage is THE most powerful physical dragon move in the game, and with 1-2 dds, its gonna hit alot of things hard even if its resisted. And Kingdra is so bulky that it can usually go through the 2-3 turns of outrage(absolutely no dragon type will switch in on a +1 kingdra, unless its scarfed), and then switch out allowing you to get a wish passed from jirachi later in the game. The only steels you will see are skarmory/forretress/bronzong, who are the only ones that can switch in on any of kingdras attacks at +1, and if locked into outrage heatran with dragon pulse is your only worry which jirachi can take a few of. Besides the only thing Skarmory can do to hurt you is set up spikes or whirlwind you out, and Forretress and Bronzong can explode on you, as Kingdra resists Gyro Ball. Kingdra is very hard to stop once it sets up let me remind you.

About the hydro pump power, it has 120 base power, and is boosted by Life orb which increases kindgra's attacking power by 1.3x, which is enough to 2HKO skarmory, as i have previously mentioned. Rain is not needed, as all you need hydro pump for is to hit skarmory who walls you if you don't 3+ Dragon dances. I'd actually be more worried about using Ice beam; you can 2HKO celebi on the switch-in and OHKO Salamence, provided you have Stealth Rock up. You have other things to take care of Skarmory, but you will have trouble because they usually wirlwind you out, weakening your team from Spikes/Stealth Rock damage.

The reason I had Substitute on the set is because it prevents status and grants you another Dragon Dance, and the loss of HP can be recovered from Jirachi's wishes. I was only making a point of how Kingdra can use jirachi to benefit itself, and if you get burned or paralyzed, Kingdra is worthless.

I do not reccomend you use Rain Dance with Damp Rock on Jirachi. First of all Jirachi will be busy enough passing wishes around that you won't have enough time to set up Rain Dance. Secondly, Dragon Dancing Kingdra doesn't need Rain Dance at all. Of course you can try it, and its your choice, but I really don't reccomend it. With my current changes to your team, for instance, Dragonites fire blast is weakened by 1.5, making you miss out on some important OHKOs.

I hope this is enough, and I hope i made this clear.

 

[Oddish On Fire]

First, i didnt say they werent important, i just pointed out that all your logic is based on the pokemons base stats, and on the sweeping stats on Salamence, the are bigger, but his movepool is shallow. Dragonite gets 1 less attack, and a much broader movepool, meaning that it has more opportuniries to hit some super effectives, which outweigh the extra point of attack.

Second, Dragon Dance is there simply for versatility. Being able to take Tbolts and Ice beams tremendously better than Mence, Being able to clear the statuses of my entire team, and also bringing a bit more physical power to the table is really quite a feat, im not intending on him being able to take down entire teams alone because thats not his job, but considering his already almost equivalent atk to mence (as opposed to SpAtk), i chose to exploit yet another strength he has making him less predictable and all the more useful because taking a few special hit for the Nite isnt a big deal so setting up 2 Dances is a breeze.

Versatility on Dragon Dance? If you're not running Dragon Dance on Dragonite, you're just wasting potential. Plus, both Dragonite and Mence can take a t-bolt since neither are weak to it, and both are OHKd by Ice Beam from any of the typical wielders, along with Ice Shard. The most important thing you're missing though is abililties. Intimidate or Inner Focus? The choice there is easy, Intimidate!!! That makes it so that even Mamoswines Ice Shard won't OHK. It makes switching into physical attackers so unbelievably easy, and therefore setting up, easy!

On the other hand, your argument on predictability is completely correct. No one will expect heal bell on Dragonite considering it's a waste of a move on your set.

 

[joshe]

Versatility on Dragon Dance? If you're not running Dragon Dance on Dragonite, you're just wasting potential. Plus, both Dragonite and Mence can take a t-bolt since neither are weak to it, and both are OHKd by Ice Beam from any of the typical wielders, along with Ice Shard. The most important thing you're missing though is abililties. Intimidate or Inner Focus? The choice there is easy, Intimidate!!! That makes it so that even Mamoswines Ice Shard won't OHK. It makes switching into physical attackers so unbelievably easy, and therefore setting up, easy!

On the other hand, your argument on predictability is completely correct. No one will expect heal bell on Dragonite considering it's a waste of a move.

litlmc01, just stop. You're pissing him off, and your pissing me off. This is his team, he can do what he wants with it.

Now on to your argument, Dragonite is the most bulky Dragon in pokemon(besides rayquaza, who is uber). It can take an ice beam, thunderbolt, and any spatk with its massive base 100 spdef and base 91 hp. Salamence on the other hand cannot. With its 95 hp and 80 def, it looks pretty good right? Wrong. Nearly every salamence set uses a -spdef nature, weakening it to the point that it can't even take an Ice beam from a blissey. Even offensive nite can take an ice beam. Dragonite excels where Salamence cannot. Bulkiness.

Here's what RaikouLover said about Dragonite:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51407. I highly suggest you read all of this before you even think about posting in this thread again.

No one in their fucking right mind will switch a Salamence in on a Mamoswine!!! All mamos are life orbed now. Why would you waste 90% of Salamences HP switching in to Mamo's Ice shard, dying if SR is in play. I honestly question if you even know how to play pokemon now. Incase you didn't know(which after what i read, I'm sure you don't) in order for intimidate to work, you have to switch into it. Dragonite is still physically bulkier on more pokes than Salamence with intimidate will ever have. Metagross much?

If you think Heal Bell is a waste of a move, you are sadly mistaken. http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/heal_bell, this is what heal bell does. It saves the battle if one of his sweepers get statused. If kingdra got statused without d-nite, he'd lose. Heal Bell is arguably one of the best support moves in the game, funtioning alongside blissey and aromatherapy, which do the exact same thing.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite, third set down. And if its on Smogon analysis its gotta work.

If you don't agree with me or if you want to argue more, don't. You're a waste of his time at this point. Take it to pm even, with me.