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tier idea #1
- Thread starter chaos
- Start date
I'm at a short for time right now so I apologize for not reading this thread in whole. I may have missed some points, or I could be repeating what somebody else has already said, but I've always liked the idea of sticking with the Uber, OU, BL, UU tiers, and just adding sub-tiers to each tier. Like this:
Uber
-Top
Groudon
Kyogre
etc.
-Middle
Ho-oh
etc.
-Lower
Manaphy
Celebi
Mew
Of course it doesn't work as well in ubers, but in things like OU and BL and UU it is a lot easier to create sub-tiers within. This could also be done with RBY (maybe..not really lol), GSC and ADV.
Uber
-Top
Groudon
Kyogre
etc.
-Middle
Ho-oh
etc.
-Lower
Manaphy
Celebi
Mew
Of course it doesn't work as well in ubers, but in things like OU and BL and UU it is a lot easier to create sub-tiers within. This could also be done with RBY (maybe..not really lol), GSC and ADV.
Is there really a point to all that, though? And honestly, I could see it spawning absurd debates... "I've seen 5 Forretress in the last week, it should be lower OU!" "Well I've seen 7, so it's middle OU!".
The one thing I could potentially agree to a simple tier between OU and uber - for things like Deoxys-E, Manaphy, Tyranitar, Celebi, Blissey, Salamence... and work from there. Granted, to actually use it, you'd have to do some of the weird shit we're doing right now, but we can leave that up to the tournament runners, not the main site.
The one thing I could potentially agree to a simple tier between OU and uber - for things like Deoxys-E, Manaphy, Tyranitar, Celebi, Blissey, Salamence... and work from there. Granted, to actually use it, you'd have to do some of the weird shit we're doing right now, but we can leave that up to the tournament runners, not the main site.
So basically the only reason you're considering it is because they DIDN'T say it? I never liked that whole attitude of "Well, since XXXX said it I'll just immediately knock the idea." I don't get what everyone's problem with AA is, just because he takes more words than everyone else to get his ideas across.
I'm pretty sure AA's Pokemon posts' longevity have very little to do with why they get so quickly disregarded.
agreeing with misty.
i dont think there are anywhere near enough problems with the current d/p metagame for something this complicated to be implemented. everything is still new and fresh, needless restrictions like this seem too gimmicky to be enjoyable, ESPECIALLY when there is so much room for growth and maturation.
i dont think there are anywhere near enough problems with the current d/p metagame for something this complicated to be implemented. everything is still new and fresh, needless restrictions like this seem too gimmicky to be enjoyable, ESPECIALLY when there is so much room for growth and maturation.
Not to derail this thread but I'll show you what my problem with AA is.
blabla shoddy is great :D we won't need competitor now
no you misunderstood me don't be mad I QUIT FOR A WHILE
hey guys let's start to play with all pokemon and keep banning things until the majority of the people says it's balanced
AA's ideas are horribly naive. I thought exactly the same as Misty did first, except I liked this one because it was better thought out and not accompanied by a lot of bullcrap.
i think what we have now is a good jumping off point (i.e. what surgo posted yesterday). just wait it out until competitor comes, and just start battling, and let things play out. i don't see why we have to force a metagame that really hasn't even started into a neat, little box. i understand what we are going for, and it is a good idea. i just think it's way too soon to try and force the metagame into these strictures.
edit: surgo, that's what im saying though. let's wait a month or so and actually find out if tyranitar and cresselia need to be removed. let's let people come up with new ideas and stuff. maybe if we allow those things, someone will come up with a nice new strategy for countering them. don't automatically restrict certain things, i say let's allow all the borderline stuff for now, keep it Uber/OU (Limbo can come later), and let people run wild and see what they can think up.
edit: surgo, that's what im saying though. let's wait a month or so and actually find out if tyranitar and cresselia need to be removed. let's let people come up with new ideas and stuff. maybe if we allow those things, someone will come up with a nice new strategy for countering them. don't automatically restrict certain things, i say let's allow all the borderline stuff for now, keep it Uber/OU (Limbo can come later), and let people run wild and see what they can think up.
Should we have a separate thread for metadiscussion and discussion of the idea? Everything on page 2 here falls into metadiscussion.
Now on to my own contribution to the metadiscussion: I like the idea because it provides a little more flexibility in banning. Let's not kid ourselves, shit like Tyranitar and Cresselia seriously constrict the metagame. Does it constrict it enough to be considered uber? Maybe (Tyranitar), probably not (Cresselia). With this idea we can make it a little less constricted without doing any actual banning.
Now on to my own contribution to the metadiscussion: I like the idea because it provides a little more flexibility in banning. Let's not kid ourselves, shit like Tyranitar and Cresselia seriously constrict the metagame. Does it constrict it enough to be considered uber? Maybe (Tyranitar), probably not (Cresselia). With this idea we can make it a little less constricted without doing any actual banning.
tbh, calling this complicated is sort of silly
here is the extent of the rules:
You cant use ubers
You can use X of these pokemon
Pick the rest from this pile
regardless if we implement the "pick X" part, I think the tier list needs another entry between OU and Uber.
I also don't think it's random or Footnote like etc whatever; this had a precedent in the UU metagame. OU and UU were the tiers and BL was an intermediate tier you could select X amount from. This is the exact same idea, except with the intermediate being between Uber and OU.
here is the extent of the rules:
You cant use ubers
You can use X of these pokemon
Pick the rest from this pile
regardless if we implement the "pick X" part, I think the tier list needs another entry between OU and Uber.
I also don't think it's random or Footnote like etc whatever; this had a precedent in the UU metagame. OU and UU were the tiers and BL was an intermediate tier you could select X amount from. This is the exact same idea, except with the intermediate being between Uber and OU.
Well, let's say we put Salamence into the limbo tier, and a whole bunch of defensive Pokemon like Blissey and Bronzong in there as well. You would then be forced to choose one of those in case your opponent chooses Salamence. You'd have to either kill faster with your own Salamence or pick one of them to help wall it.
Basically I'm just saying to make sure that you don't forget that even though a Pokemon is sent to this new tier, it's still usable and has to be countered just about as much as anything else.
I am not really for any major rule-setting right now, because I haven't played yet, but I also realize that my opinion means very little right now, because I haven't played yet.
Basically I'm just saying to make sure that you don't forget that even though a Pokemon is sent to this new tier, it's still usable and has to be countered just about as much as anything else.
I am not really for any major rule-setting right now, because I haven't played yet, but I also realize that my opinion means very little right now, because I haven't played yet.
I dont really like this rule.. I didnt really like it in UUBL tournaments either.
It seems to make the game even mored centred around a limited number of pokemon. It makes the game even more of a Paper Scissors Rock type thing.. You have to be prepared to face a whole tier of pokemon, but you can only use X pokemon from that tier to counter them..
Have a nice day.
It seems to make the game even mored centred around a limited number of pokemon. It makes the game even more of a Paper Scissors Rock type thing.. You have to be prepared to face a whole tier of pokemon, but you can only use X pokemon from that tier to counter them..
Have a nice day.
I guess I'm open to the idea now but there's a reason I repeat the "you need experience to discuss tiers sensibly"...and this is one of the few topics that actually applies to literally everyone now, no matter how smart or how many tournaments you've won in Advance/GSC/RBY. We will honestly not be able to discern whether or not a Limbo tier is beneficial or even needed for many weeks, if not months.
Writing DP Analyses is significantly different from this proposed undertaking and we still held off on doing that on a large scale until a month after the game was released. I feel that, similarly, we should wait about a month for the metagame to materialize (not settle, that will take years and defeat the point of considering the need of a Limbo Tier) before we can actually see if this is a good idea.
Writing DP Analyses is significantly different from this proposed undertaking and we still held off on doing that on a large scale until a month after the game was released. I feel that, similarly, we should wait about a month for the metagame to materialize (not settle, that will take years and defeat the point of considering the need of a Limbo Tier) before we can actually see if this is a good idea.