Metagame Tier Shift

[Adrian Marin]

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DISCLAIMER

If you don't like stall, don't read this post. I don't have time for UNREFINED OAFS!

Stall is one of the best playstyles right now, yet no one is using it. But why? To help propagandise everyone popularise stall, I'll share my current formula. Obviously, it will probably get outdated in the future, but I believe this will help those that want to effectively use stall in TS. Please note that I don't claim to know everything about stall in TS. I don't—I just want everyone to use it more frequently. Now, you might think that, because stall is very strong, it's therefore simple to build. This is not the case. The overwhelming number of offensive threats in this metagame limits teambuilding options. However, we do also have an even bigger number of defensive threats. The problem is we can only fit so many Pokemon in one team, and we are forced to account for all threats methodically, lest you'll consequently lose to something that you did not prepare for.... and nobody wants that, right? I don't care if you have to think for five hours constructing a team, only to discover that your entire team loses to Vivillon. Been there, done that. GET OVER IT!

The Formula
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Defoggers

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Sets

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Knock Off
- Toxic

Archeops @ Leftovers / Safety Goggles / No Item
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stone Edge / Rock Tomb
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave / Acrobatics

I usually start building my team with a Defogger in mind. Right now, there are two defoggers with extremely pivotal roles, and those two are Archeops and Vullaby. Of the two, Vullaby is better. I use it primarily as a SpD wall that can check threats such as Meloetta, Victreebel, Vivillon and Lurantis. Archeops is also decent. It's not the bulkiest Defogger around, but it has a good typing. And when you have around as much physical bulk as Skarmory, that's usually enough to wall (or check) the many powerful Normal-types and Flying-types. These threats include: Zangoose, Ursaring, Dodrio and also Vivillon if you choose to use Safety Goggles. Other Defoggers exist as well, such as Golbat and Togetic. Unfortunately for them, their roles are rather linear and function more like blanket checks to Pokemon that are generally easy to deal with. Both Togetic and Golbat fail to wall Fighing-types like Hariyama and Medicham as well as they'd like, and that's a problem.


Walls that beat physical Fighting-types

Sets

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Psyshock

Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock / Knock Off / Heal Bell
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell / Knock Off

Spiritomb @ Assault Vest
Ability: Infiltrator
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Foul Play
- Psychic

Slowbro @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Toxic

Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Foul Play

As Medicham's power is obscene, you will often need more than two fighting checks. However, if you use any of these Pokemon, you will be to wall Medicham, as well as most of the other Fighting-type type wallbreakers. Bear in mind that Fighting-types such as Crabominable and Heracross can still beat these Pokemon, not to mention Choice Band Medicham has the power to 2HKO many of them. This is often not a big deal, however, as Fairy-type and Psychic-type walls are so good that you'll often have two Fighting-type checks anyway.

Walls that beat physical Normal-types

Sets

Archeops @ Leftovers / Safety Goggles / No Item
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stone Edge / Rock Tomb
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave / Acrobatics

Mawile @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Play Rough
- Stealth Rock
- Pain Split
- Flamethrower

Spiritomb @ Assault Vest
Ability: Infiltrator
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Foul Play
- Psychic

Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Foul Play

Carbink @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Walling Normal-types would have been extremely easy if Ursaring didn't exist. Ursaring's access to Guts and moves like Crunch, Ice Punch and Play Rough means Ghost-types can't wall it at all. What's worse, some of Uraring's best walls lose to Trapinch and Diglett, which is terrible. This is why I, too, also use Trapinch or Diglett to pin down opposing Ursaring. Ursaring is Hoopa-U levels of stupidity. If you have any of these Pokemon, Zangoose will generally be not much of an issue. Besides, if they somehow kill your check due to prior damage, hax, or certain coverage moves, you can always revenge kill with either Trapinch or Diglett.


Kabutops counters

Sets

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Recover
- Gastro Acid
- Soak

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clear Smog
- Recover
- Toxic
- Scald

Virizion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Def / 64 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Bullet Seed

Quilladin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Synthesis
- Wood Hammer
- Leech Seed / Spikes
- Super Fang / Roar

Kabutops is a very oppressive Pokemon. It mostly limits non-weather offense and balanced archetypes to use the Pokemon listed above. Pyukumuku is definitely my favourite of all of them. Unaware is a phenomenal ability that allows it to additionally check a lot more threats, such as Calm Mind sweepers, Kingdra and Clamperl. Gastrodon is another strong counter to Kabutops. The nice thing about Gastrodon is that can also deal with the many powerful Electric-types. Virizion is great. It's normally seen in balanced teams, but it can work decently well in a stall team. Its recovery in the rain is quite shaky, however. Ferroseed has recovery issues, but it can perform quite well with Wish support. Not only does it beat Kabutops, it can also set up Spikes and wall Clamperl. Quilladin is interesting. It's definitely no Tangela, but it has similar physical bulk and access to the coveted Bulletproof ability. This lets it wall Psychic-types and Ghost-types that rely on moves like Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. Quilladin has access to Spikes, but it has a bad case of four moveslot syndrome. It needs Wood Hammer to safely kill Kabutops and Synthesis to heal. Leech Seed definitely helps Quilladin recover, especially in the rain, but that would mean Grass-types can switch in without consequence, as they won't care about Wood Hammer and Leech Seed. That's where Super Fang comes in! If you really want to use Spikes, you should probably use it alongside Roar.

Clamperl Counters

Sets

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Bullet Seed

Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Recover
- Gastro Acid
- Soak / Light Screen

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Wish
- Protect
- Haze

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Grass Knot
- Dragon Tail

Clamperl is insane right now. It's received enough speed to outpace all non-scarf threats at +2. But the reason why it's such a threat to stall is because of how much Special Attack it gets when Deep Sea Tooth is equipped. If it's Timid, it will have about 654 special attack, and if it's Modest, it will have a mind boggling 719 Special Attack stat. It's very frightening and doesn't require a Shell Smash boost to punch holes if you don't have any of these Pokemon The reason why I haven't listed Mantine and Gastrodon is because Clamperl uses either Hidden Power Grass or Electric to beat these threats. Ferroseed can also kill it, but it's rather risky, as Ferroseed lacks reliable recovery. I definitely wouldn't rely on Ferroseed alone to check Clamperl. Pyukumuku barely takes Hidden Power Grass with no SpD investment. It can easily respond to its assault by poisoning it or using Light Screen. Ludicolo can take a +2 Ice Beam and OHKOs Clamperl with Giga Drain thanks to the SpD drop of Shell Smash. It can also wall other things, like opposing Ludicolo. Vaporeon has enough bulk to take unboosted Hidden Power Grass with ease. Still, it's not the most reliable counter, as relying on Haze alone can be risky. Slowking is an interesting one. It doesn't take too much from Hidden Power Grass. I gave it enough Spa to OHKO Clamperl with Grass Knot after the Shell Smash SpD drop. Thanks to Regenerator, Slowking can easily switch in and out throughout the match. Just be wary of Pursuit trappers. Slowking can also reliably wall Crabominable. I'd like to note that if you don't have a counter to Crabominable, you should probably use Diglett with Groundium Z to revenge kill it easily.

Pokemon that beat special Fire-types

I don't think Typhlosion, Solar Power Charizard and other special attacking Fire-type Pokemon are that good. They do have the capacity to destroy your team if you're not prepared, however. This is why it's better to choose a blanket check like Chansey or Sliggoo.

Sets

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock

Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Toxic
- Rain Dance
- Dragon Pulse

Flareon @ Shed Shell
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic

Monferno @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 200 SpD / 24 Spe
Careful Nature
- Close Combat
- Slack Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock

It's no surprise that Chansey is still a very solid Pokemon. It can still wall almost all special attackers. It loses to Diglett and Trapinch, however. If everyone starts using Trapinch cores in the future, Skill Swap will be required. Sliggoo is one of the best blanket checks to special attackers in Tier Shift right now. The combination of Rain Dance and Rest means it will be able to somewhat reliably recover against all playstyles but Sand and Sun archetypes. Sliggoo takes absolutely nothing from these Fire-types. You'll hear more about Sliggoo later on. Flareon and Monferno are ok. Monferno can set Stealth Rock while Flareon can Wish pass. Flareon's Flare Blitz hits hard and allows it to kill various Taunt stallbreakers. They both wall the same Pokemon and recover reliably, but Monferno is prone to getting killed by Trapinch and Diglett, as Flareon can easily use Shed Shell, unlike Monferno.


Arena Trappers


Trapinch and Diglett are phenomenal Pokemon, as they're able to deal with most offensive threats. Trapinch has decent bulk and can kill or PP stall attackers and walls alike. Diglett's speed allows it to outpace and kill threats such as Tapu Koko and Monferno more easily. Trapinch is probably better, but Diglett's ability to outspeed and kill threats Trapinch can't tank is highly appreciated. Additionally, they both possess the ability to trap and kill Rock-types. Pair one of them up with a Defogger weak to Rock, and you'll form a strong anti-hazard core.

Sets

Diglett @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Screech
- Toxic
- Aerial Ace

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 132 Def / 60 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Rest
- Toxic

Other important things

Heal Bell Support

Almost all stall teams require Heal Bell support. Musharna, Clefairy and Chansey are good clerics.


Knock Off Support


Not having a Pokemon with Knock Off means you have no way of getting rid of useful items like Leftovers. It's better to have one Knock Off user than to have none.
Pokemon that beat special Psychic-types


There are a lot of powerful Psychic-types in Tier Shift. Meloetta and Elgyem, in particular, are more difficult to wall. Usually, a wall like Clefairy will do, but it's always nice to have a reliable counter to these Pokemon. Vullaby and Spiritomb usually get the job done. I know some of you like Tapu Lele, but it's honestly not very frightening. Due to its low bulk, it's easy to kill. Furthermore, opposing Psychic Pokemon are so bulky in Tier Shift that they have no problem taking its Shadow Ball and Moonblast. Its Psychic Terrain can be scary, however.


Physical Bird Killers

We all know birds are scary, that's why we always make it a point to use a good counter. Since Honchkrow exists, Solrock isn't a favourable choice. As of now, the two main bird killers I've used are Archeops and Mawile. There's also Electabuzz, but I notice Electric-types haven't really become very popular, so its role would consequently be rather one-dimensional. This role isn't completely necessary, but it's always nice to have a Pokemon that can fulfill it.


Vivillon Counters


Vivillon has high speed, Quiver Dance, Hurricane and an accurate Sleep Powder. Peef Rimgar used a set with Substitute and swept my team. Now, I always use a counter such as Vullaby, Safety Goggles Archeops and Komala.


Always use a Water-type Pokemon in your team

This rule is completely arbitrary, but it makes a lot of sense. Water is probably the best defensive typing in the game. You should always use a Water-type in your team.

If you follow these guidelines, your team should look somewhat similar to this:

Team

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Knock Off
- Toxic

Diglett @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Screech
- Toxic
- Aerial Ace

Mawile @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Play Rough
- Stealth Rock
- Pain Split
- Flamethrower

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Psyshock

Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Toxic
- Rain Dance
- Dragon Pulse

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Recover
- Gastro Acid
- Light Screen

I know this was rather lazily written, but regardless, I hope the propaganda works I helped provide insight for everyone to comfortably build stall teams. Thanks for reading! (or skimming, lol) Again, this isn't a rulebook, it's just my thought process for building teams in TS.

 

[Iynhe]

Adrian Marin, your post is fenomenal. Also, it helps people who want to know how to BEAT Stall XD

 

[Flamestar]

Togetic @ Eviolite / Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Heat Wave

Togekiss, but better.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

Togetic @ Eviolite / Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Heat Wave

Togekiss, but better.

Togetic doesn't learn air slash

 

[Aman Indra]

Bear Facts

After having the pleasure of abusing utilizing Ursaring i can safely say that although powerful this guy has some serious 4MMS, no matter what set you run if the opposing team has a decent defensive backbone you will get walled by something. Crunch-less sets are hard walled by ghosts, Earthquake lacking varients have problem with steels and non-play rough varients get ducked on by the dark/ghosts and bulky as f birds like vullaby. The true area where Ursaring shines is against slowish or balance teams and stall after it's normal resists are gone. Offense deals with it fine but it's still a 50/50 after a SD and fighting type coverage = Dead Bear. I am a bit dissapointed as i thought it could potentially be a A+ in this meta.
An absolute force of nature against passive or non-offense teams - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7tiershift-119216

I got bored of Ursaring Webs and wanted to try out weather since i had heard broken statements about rain from some notably good TS players but i went through some lists of mons and saw that drought had an equal opportunity and power to be almost as powerful and effective as Rain and i am having a good time and success spamming sun teams on the bot random players. I think if we are going to suspect and declare Rain as the public enemy we will definitely need to look at Sun potentially in the future since in my testings it has had similar or can i say even better results than rain sometimes.

Scorching Setters

90/ 105 / 160 / 105 / 90 / 40
Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Lava Plume
- Yawn

Torkoal is one of the reasons why Sun is amazing and is such a valuable Pokemon to have in a sun team since this little guy might not out-damage things but has tons of utility to compensate for it since it can come in multiple times in a game due to it's superior physical bulk which is even better after TS boosts. Torkoal is also a lot of role compendiums compressed into one - It is your weather setter and the main one with Heat Rock, it is your hazard setter with Stealth Rock and hazard cleaner with Rapid Spin and is also your physical sponge and utility provider with Yawn at the same time. Also a cool thing about Torkoal is the ability for it to win weather wars since it has the slowest speed of all viable weather setters which is a good thing to have since weather offense is the best offensive route for a team to take right now. All in all doing so much while setting up sun might make Torkoal probably one of the best setters the tier has to offer in regards to any weather. The over-dependence to get the plays going with this mon, the pressure to remove hazards while being slow and weak to them are obvious downsides.

113 / 116 / 115 / 121 / 140 / 140
Ninetales @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Psyshock

Fire is one of the only weathers in TS right now that can run 2 auto weather setters with some decent viability. Ninetales is very different from Torkoal since it does not provide any utility other than setting sun and it's not advisable to slap heat rock on this since it acts as a sweeper + setter all in one. After 1 nasty plot it can dish out impressive damage if sun is active and a Inferno Overdrive in sun after +2 is murder and not even resists appreciate tanking that. Ninetales offensive movepool is ass and the only real coverage it gets is psyshock and due to it's sub-par offenses it does not dish out major damage outside of sun which hurts it's viability against other weathers and some really fats walls can effectively stall sun turns and also the whole mon if lacking firium z. Solar beams under sun never hurt to spam since many teams rely on bulky waters to dispose off such threats.

The Main Criminals

120 / 145 / 105 / 140/ 110 / 110
Victreebel @ Normalium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Weather Ball / Knock Off
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder

This thing is one of the best chlorophyll users you can get while using Sun and operates in a league of it's own under sun. Great typing giving offensive presence and immune to toxic and not caring about burns also problem stall to a degree. I personally recommend a Z-Growth set under sun because that just takes souls as a Tail-Glow boosted Victreebel spamming sludge bombs, weather balls (fire and 100 BP) and Solar Beams under sun is a mayhem for anything not named hard stall with special walls. You can also abuse the amazing mixed offense capability to find room for knock off to remove eviolite and furthur damaging switch-ins by removing poison stab or maybe weather ball since it is a dead moveset outside of sun but without it steels come in for free. Sleep powder can also be run to surprise checks and dent them into submission. This thing is still a bit frail as offense also received a big boost so still be careful on what you choose to setup on. This thing struggles outside of sun since it is easily out-sped and it's main grass stab can become a liability when in a weather war cant be practically used outside of sun. Punches really big holes in the opposing teams consistently mid-early game which makes it a huge threat.

118 / 124 / 118 / 149 / 125 / 140
Charizard @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Where do i even start on this guy ? This is my second favorite Pokemon to use in this tier after Ursaring since it is a even better powerhouse and is borderline insane in sun and invalidates everything that does not scream a scarf or rock type coverage or a special wall. Base 150 SP ATK + Solar Power + Choice Specs + Sun = GG after special walls are gone. I have literally won games with this guy from nowhere including a win against Adrian Marin stall which i absolutely haxed on my way out, wish i had a replay somewhere since it displays this Pokemon's power as it did more than 50% to a pyukumuku on a resisted hit and almost one shot a mon with respectable bulk like Musharna and later ko'ed it with a crit when it was at +2 defenses, i will win without hax one day against you brother :p. This is arguably the Kabutops of Sun i.e the best weapon and asset available to it currently. Outside of spamming fire blast nothing really stands out for it movepool-wise and quad-weak to stealth rock is a huge, huge disadvantage.

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku in Sun: 222-261 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 424-501 (60.2 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

105 / 150 / 170 / 100 / 105 / 135
Leafeon @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll / Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Return / Iron Tail / Double Edge

This thing is an underrated monster under Sun, base 135 speed is very good to have even outside of sun but what's out-speeding that speed tier at +2.....nothing. Base 150 attack is nothing to scoff at and after a SD, leafeon can clean effectively late game with or without sun active. It also has respectable bulk and can find many opportunities to setup on many pokemon due to that great physical bulk. Again movepool is a big problem and it is relatively frail on the special side and it lacks coverage to consistently break every opposing team members as steels and bulk mons not weak to grass can even stall it to some degree. You can also be cheeky against stall and run leaf guard and keep boosting while not giving a care about status since most unaware they run are weak to your stab anyway. Iron Tail is more of a tech to slap those random fairies blocking a sweep. Return is best for thick walls that try to wall like Vullaby. Double Edge is for maniacs like me who don't know what recoil is.

Sun also has access to other options i have not tried that might be equally effective like Vileplume and Shiftree with chlorophyll and even Lilligant which is an underrated quiver dancer.

TL;DR - Use Sun, it is one of the diverse and effective weathers out there and if packing proper hazard measures and using Lord Victreebel and Charizard effectively, anything not named hard stall or Rain can be smoked off with some ease. Also if Rain is booted, this thing might need to be put on radar although i find it a bit more manageable than Rain currently.

 

[Stealthbomber16]

Yall sleeping on my boi

Scyther @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Bug Bite
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off/Brick Break/Roost
110/150/120/95/120/145

Knock off is included on the set for eviolite walls.

Scyther getting a +40 boost to every stat is a godsend and when paired with eviolite is something that should NOT be overlooked.
SD propels that already stupidly high attack stat to base 300 and with technician bug bites and aerial aces you can punch holes in things.
Things like this, pairing eviolite with base 120 defenses, is why eviolite is the problem rather than tangela. Remove the boost shard, remove the problem.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

Yall sleeping on my boi

Scyther @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Bug Bite
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off/Brick Break/Roost
110/150/120/95/120/145

Knock off is included on the set for eviolite walls.

Scyther getting a +40 boost to every stat is a godsend and when paired with eviolite is something that should NOT be overlooked.
SD propels that already stupidly high attack stat to base 300 and with technician bug bites and aerial aces you can punch holes in things.
Things like this, pairing eviolite with base 120 defenses, is why eviolite is the problem rather than tangela. Remove the boost shard, remove the problem.

Scyther is still 4x weak to Stealth Rocks on switchin, has problems staying in even with Eviolite due to a weakness to Fire, Ice, Electric, and Rock (and flying I guess), 4 of the most frequent offensive types used for coverage, before a Swords Dance is fairly meek in a meta filled with 100/100/100+ defenses, and doesn't have the best coverage depending on what move you sack, be it walled by Steels without Brick Break or being forced into Aerial Acing Ghosts, which while it isn't bad, won't do a really good chunk to some of the tankier ghosts, ex. Dusclops.

Doubling attack doesn't double the base stat.

Eviolite isn't really a problem after the Tangela ban IMO. Null can use it pretty well, but its movepool is so ass it might as well not exist. Magmar and Electabuzz have very respectable 735 and 730 BSTs, respectively, and can use Eviolite well, but prefer other items and aren't really 'walls'. Gligar I guess can use it, but without +30 or even +40 to its stats its more 'meh' than usual.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

So there's been new shifts! And scary things just got a bit scarier:

New Stats: 120 / 92 / 90 / 130 / 90 / 129

This thing has already been TERRORIZING STALL in matchups I've had, but now it's got even more to work with. I expect to see a lot more shitty Adrian sets on stall now (man runs safety goggles archeops). Will this beast stay PU? No clue but I fully intend on ruining lives with it either way. Sub / QD / Hurricane / Sleep Powder with Lefties is a serious late game threat, especially if coupled with Diglett to eliminate it's counters (Koko, Steels, etc)

--------------------------

I was gonna write some more but then I realized I can announce (most of) the selected council! Joining me in a desparate attempt to balance this are ScarfWynaut Klang and Adrian Marin. There's still one more slot if you wanna help! A vote on rain will be occurring pretty soon, so be sure to make your voice heard about it! I'll def be making a post about it soon.

 

[G-Luke]

Does this have a ladder yet Peef Rimgar ,

 

[dhelmise]

Does this have a ladder yet Peef Rimgar ,

no, and it most likely won't get one for a long while unless it becomes OMotM or LCotM.

 

[Fardin]

if anyone wanated to start building a stall, i named some mons down for u guys to help
Hippopotas: 108/112/118/78/82/72 + eviolite

Ferroseed: 84/90/131/64/126/50 + eviolite

Slowpoke 130/105/105/80/80/55 + eviolite + regen

Vullaby: 110/95/115/85/105/100 + eviolite

Togetic: 95/80/125/120/145/80 + eviolite

Lickitung: 130/95/115/100/115/70 + eviolite

Growlithe: 95/110/85/119/90/100 + eviolite + intimidate

Staravia: 95/115/90/80/80/120 + eviolite + intimidate

Clefairy: 110/85/88/100/105/75 + eviolite + magic guard

Natu: 80/90/85/110/85/110 + eviolite + magic bounce

Mareanie: 90/93/102/83/92/85 + eviolite + regen

Golbat: 105/110/100/95/105/120 + eviolite + infiltrator

Duosion: 105/80/90/165/100/70 + eviolite + magic guard/regen

every poke here sounds fairly decent even with no item, but with eviolite its just straight up busted if u ask me. have fun abusing them :]

 

[AJC]

something to think about

Abomasnow's base form which is sitting in PU so it gets +40

130/132/115/132/115/100

compared to it's mega which is UU so +10

100/142/115/142/115/50.

so compared to the mega it gets more HP the same base attacking stats as vanilla mega-snow the same base defenses but has double the base speed and doesn't take up a mega slot and can hold a boosting item.

 

[tegrof19]

megas take time to drop to the tier they'll most likely reside in once introduced

though something that interests me now is how viable veil ho is

 

[Aman Indra]

Time to dump some Trash Mons.

106 / 157 / 110 / 80/ 90 / 107
Fraxure @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Low Kick

I wanted to have a Physical Sweeper which does not fold to Unaware and generally was looking for good Mold Breaker users and Fraxure was cool and has performed alright. Fraxure not only has impressive Attack since 157 is nothing to scoff at even unboosted but has access to both Swords Dance which can be used to wall-breaker or support with webs or the better Dragon Dance which is a great cleaner. It can give stall some trouble since it can taunt everything passive and their unaware can't really do what it is intended to do. Outrage hits ridiculously hard at +1 to anything neutral to it however Steel and Fairy types being there is a bad disadvantage. Low Kick is to break the Steel and Rock Types who seem to ever wall although i hate it's damage fluctuations and i also don't want the immediate attack drops from Superpower. I am toying on the idea of running Dragon Claw instead of Outrage since getting locked has actually cost me games. Mold Breaker feels very handy to me since stall and semi-stall is everywhere and by-passing Sturdy, Unaware, Magic Bounce seems pretty neat. Not the best sweeper TS offers but certainly fun if you can remove resisting walls early. Eviolite adds DAT bulk to take hits and why let only stall use this monster of an item ? Also outspeeds a vast majority of the metagame including base 150's at just +1.

107 / 97 / 95 / 117 / 95 / 154
Swoobat @ Salac Berry
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Substitute

This thing is pure Cash Boys. Simple is probably one of the most borked abilities a Pokemon can get access to if it has a boosting move in it's arsenal and what better for a special sweeper than Calm Mind. Going straight to +2 SP ATK and SP DEF after a single boost and getting to fire off a 100 BP Stab or a potential 140 / 180 if behind a sub or Salac Berry boost is pretty crazy. Bulk is almost non-existent for TS standards and weakness to common Rock-types and Dark Types like Pawniard as well as the weakness to stealth rocks affect it's efficiency to pull it's weight in a match but the real treasure lies in it's speed tier which is gold which lets it outspeed everything up to base 150 which a great benchmark to hit. Heat Wave is for Pawniard which is a major pain in the butt and substitute helps aid against status and stalls. Heavily priority weak and frail tho, needs much support. Can't do anything without boosts and hits like a finger touch without any setup.

TL;DR Have fun

 

[Peef Rimgar]

https://discord.gg/6rqRcWv

Tier Shift has a discord channel now! This will be the best place to get battles, talk to other users about the meta live, get teams, and join live tournaments which is something I'm gonna work very hard to make a thing in a sorta new way. More on that later though (probably after the meta is on the main server, if that's a thing that's happening still)

On the subject of Rain: we've been considering a new idea. Is Kabutops the broken component of rain? Would banning Kabutops restrict Rain enough to make it a balanced playstyle? Personally I'm not convinced it won't just be another mon that takes Kabutops' place but I'd like to hear thoughts!

 

[Fardin]

https://discord.gg/zyT7xQ

Tier Shift has a discord channel now! This will be the best place to get battles, talk to other users about the meta live, get teams, and join live tournaments which is something I'm gonna work very hard to make a thing in a sorta new way. More on that later though (probably after the meta is on the main server, if that's a thing that's happening still)

On the subject of Rain: we've been considering a new idea. Is Kabutops the broken component of rain? Would banning Kabutops restrict Rain enough to make it a balanced playstyle? Personally I'm not convinced it won't just be another mon that takes Kabutops' place but I'd like to hear thoughts!

Doesn't stall just shut down rain, or any balanced team with ferroseed

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Doesn't stall just shut down rain, or any balanced team with ferroseed

Stall does have Pyukumuku but that isn't the hardest mon in the world to take care of with other mons (for example, Trapinch can toxic stall trap it). Gastrodon is basically the end all be all for Kabutops beating, but that requires good play as most rain builds will have Ludicolo or some lure.

Ferroseed and Virizion Balance loses to Fightinium Kabutops outright (which should be a set).

 

[Adrian Marin]

So I did a bit of thinking on how we should handle the whole Kabutops ordeal.

Peef Rimgar suggested to ban Damp Rock and Heat Rock, which definitely makes a lot of sense. This would render rain and sun-based playstyles less viable, sure, and offense may still necessitate a not-so-passive check to said weather abusers, but hopefully, there will still be sufficient counterplay to combat these threats. I like this idea because it also addresses the sun issue. Sun is extremely powerful, and if we decide to abstain from further deliberation, it may even become as powerful as rain in the future.


The more direct, and frankly, justified solution, would be to ban Kabutops, as we all know how it constraints and obligates weatherless offense to use a mon such as Virizion or Gurdurr. Seriously, you'd be hard-pressed to find something that beats this fossil that isn't a mon I would use in one of my lovely teams. Yeah, we all know it's unhealthy, but what about the others? What about Ludicolo? We'd need to find checks that I wouldn't use; checks that you, the majority, (who all deserve to die tbh,) would use. I'm gonna level with you here: I'm a stall guy, people know I'm a stall guy, and I like it, I love it. But all I want right now is complete playstyle equality, and Kabutops is limiting weatherless offense drastically. I don't know if Ludicolo is a problem. Personally, I haven't had extreme difficulty in checking Ludicolo with my offense teams. There's also Carracosta, who may or may not be a problem if Kabutops is gone.

We could also ban Drizzle + Swift Swim. I'm sure the thought is in everyone's minds. But this line of logic doesn't measure up well with the facts at hand. Do you know how easy it is to build a fat rain team with a dedicated Rain Dance setter? This is a bulky meta; I imagine offense doesn't have much practical counterplay to fat Rain Dance setters. Pelipper also practically does nothing but set rain, defog and U-turn. And the only thing it does well is the Drizzle part. Dedicated Rain Dance setters on an especially fat rain team would give weatherless offense a lot of trouble if you ask me.


I'm in favour of a less conventional solution, a mechanical implementation that may be unprecedented. But first, I'd like to make a couple of points.

• Drizzle is banned in all tiers below OU.
• Drizzle was banned because of Swift Swim Pokemon.
• If Drizzle wasn't banned, the main Swift Swim Pokemon's usage stats would undoubtedly cause them to be UU, at the very least.
• Drought was banned from tiers below RU for, I presume, the same reason.

Tier Shift is a complicated metagame with loopholes, if you will. If Pelipper or Politoed use Drizzle, they don't gain any stat boosts at all because they're treated as OU Pokemon. This unfortunately does not address the reason why Drizzle was banned in the first place. Tell me, do you think Vulpix would be balanced in PU? If not, then you can't deny the fact that Drizzle's power lies in its main abusers, not its summoner. I propose the following mechanics change: if the combination of Drizzle + Swift Swim or Drought + Chlorophyll are met, Swift Swim / Chlorophyll Pokemon receive bonuses relative to their respective weather summoners. I believe all administrative decisions pertaining to metagame policy should be met with shrewd, common sense rationale. This issue almost looks like an oversight.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

So I did a bit of thinking on how we should handle the whole Kabutops ordeal.

Peef Rimgar suggested to ban Damp Rock and Heat Rock, which definitely makes a lot of sense. This would render rain and sun-based playstyles less viable, sure, and offense may still necessitate a not-so-passive check to said weather abusers, but hopefully, there will still be sufficient counterplay to combat these threats. I like this idea because it also addresses the sun issue. Sun is extremely powerful, and if we decide to abstain from further deliberation, it may even become as powerful as rain in the future.

Lemme elaborate on this stance just a bit in lieu of a true response to Adrian.

Theoretically, if we ban weather stones (say, Damp and Heat), we will reduce the over centralization of weather offense without killing the playstyles. Think like OTR Reuniclus: you get 4 turns of hitting shit that you outspeed, but there is legitimate counterplay and the slot comes at an opportunity cost. In addition, running a dedicated rain setter without Damp Rock can be a major inconvenience, since it's mostly a dead slot regardless but is worth it for the convenience of easy 8 turns of rain.

Sets that would be ran possibly:

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Electric] / Ice Beam

Kabutops @ Fightinium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Rain Dance
- Superpower
- Swords Dance / Stone Edge

Rain builds similar to those that already exist would also still be alright as well, but would need much more supporting cast and would have far less potential to outright beat weatherless.

 

[The Immortal]

Adrian Marin I don't think that's a good idea because you're opening up the conversation for custom tiering. Tier Shift is based on the standard tiers. We shouldn't change Pokemon stats as we see fit. If something is overpowered then deal with it the same way as a standard tier would. Think of Tier Shift as OU with Pokemon actually having these stats.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Adrian Marin I don't think that's a good idea because you're opening up the conversation for custom tiering. Tier Shift is based on the standard tiers. We shouldn't change Pokemon stats as we see fit. If something is overpowered then deal with it the same way as a standard tier would. Think of Tier Shift as OU with Pokemon actually having these stats.

I completely understand where you're coming from. A separate policy review thread or conversation shouldn't be out of the table. We've never contended this problem before, and TS has always had a rain issue. There's clearly a pattern here. Do you know why these SS Pokemon are so broken? It's because Swift Swim Kabutops + Drizzle support is literally OU and should be treated as such. It's not like you can use this combination in PU, so why must they receive PU boosts? In fact, Pelipper, for whatever reason, doesn't receive any PU bonuses if it's using Drizzle. If Drizzle Pelipper is paired with Swift Swim Kabutops, does that make Kabutops OU? I don't actually think this is unprecedented, on second thought. I mean, you could say Pelipper not receiving PU bonuses if it's using Drizzle is custom tiering as well. It's not like Pelipper magically becomes OU the minute it's using Drizzle. That's not how it works.

 

[The Immortal]

I completely understand where you're coming from. A separate policy review thread or conversation shouldn't be out of the table. We've never contended this problem before, and TS has always had a rain issue. There's clearly a pattern here. Do you know why these SS Pokemon are so broken? It's because Swift Swim Kabutops + Drizzle support is literally OU and should be treated as such. It's not like you can use this combination in PU, so why must they receive PU boosts? In fact, Pelipper, for whatever reason, doesn't receive any PU bonuses if it's using Drizzle. If Drizzle Pelipper is paired with Swift Swim Kabutops, does that make Kabutops OU? I don't actually think this is unprecedented, on second thought. I mean, you could say Pelipper not receiving PU bonuses if it's using Drizzle is custom tiering as well. It's not like Pelipper magically becomes OU the minute it's using Drizzle. That's not how it works.

Using that argument, if you have Tyranitar in your team then nothing should receive boosts because you can't use the combination of Tyranitar and lower tier Pokémon anywhere except OU. That's not how Tier Shift works. Tier Shift adjusts individual Pokémon.

 

[Seamus Eso]

Ban eviolite

 

[Aman Indra]

Ban eviolite

 

[Seamus Eso]

I'm new to this tier so can someone clear something out for me. The purpose of tier shift is to boost the stats of lower tier pokemon progressively in order to make more viable options. But to me, 30+ or 40+ boosts to NU or PU pokemon just seems absurd and they reach stats that put even Box legends to shame. So it just creates a meta where OU or UU mons are nearly unviable and there is NU and RU mons roaming around with ridiculous stats. So why was the +10 boost to every stat for every tier below OU selected instead of something more balanced like +5 each tier drop?