Tiers in DP

Why is "wall of text" being used to dismiss a valid argument? A seemingly relative agreement shouldn't take precedence over a thought out post. The biggest threat to the game is letting the rules be decided by a small majority that only feels that way because that's the way things have always been.
 
alternative metagame arguments are stupid imo, everyone fucking knows what will happen when all the ubers are allowed because we have the uber metagame. remember all the variety in that? ok.

1-2 ubers to a team/other dumb rules to nerf ubers - remember early rsbot? nobody wanted that shit except fanha.
 
I know you guys would hate me if I say these things, but I simply had to voice out my opinion.

First off:
Lati@s does not make Mence look completely retarded. Well, at least on the defensive side, because their ability to switch into things are different. By no means it is standard though, but this thing deserves at test. You can't theorize everything in pokemon.

Second:
Manaphy should not be uber.

Sure it is scary, lols at HP Grass, Raikou/CMBliss as its only counters, but I believe that the only reason that people think its uber is because people doesn't want to use CMBliss and want to stick to the standard sets. Sure, Sing and Seismic Toss is nice, but CMBliss does more than just counter Manaphy. It is no longer Pressured by Zapdos. It is no longer a Skarmory set up bait. It does not fear Rhyperior switch ins unless there's a sandstorm. It beats down Nasty Plot Togekiss (Togekiss can BP away though), Nasty Plot Azelf (unless it has Taunt), and possibly PorygonZ if you have enough luck of it not rolling at max damage twice (unless it has Hyper Beam to clear you out). Now if you can fit that in your team, Manaphy doesn't look scary anymore (well, ok it will have a hige Stallwar with CM/Rest/Rain Dance/Surf Manaphy but Bliss should eventually win because it has more PPs). It overspecializes you to one set, yes, but isn't every team supposed to have some way of defending themselves to special attackers anyway? (Light Screen + Cresselia, etc). How could you possibly be calling CMBliss overspecialized where everyone uses the standard set because it seems so practical.

Manaphy is the best bulky water in the game
Yes, we all know Hydration + Rain Dance is scary, but that takes up 2 moveslots leaving with Surf and either Ice Beam, Calm Mind or Tail Glow. This makes it easier to counter, and its still destroyed by CMBliss

It lols at Grass Knot. So?
There's Energy Ball and Thunderbolt. You might argue that Infernape doesn't get either of those two moves, but it still does get Close Combat. This is also another thing that makes Manaphy unique. Cresselia is the only pokemon that safely walls Mixmence, and Cressy isn't uber. THis part is very hard for me to describe, but loling at a commonly used move that has it's weakness written all over it does not mean its uber.

I used to think its uber, but after seeing how CMBliss easily fits into my team I decided to change my mind.
 
So you not only have to use a specific Pokemon (Blissey) to counter it, but you also need to put a specific move on it that isn't even the most viable one? You argue Manaphy is not uber because Calm Mind Blissey is not bad? How does that make sense?

Having to use Blissey alone to counter it sounds like a reason to move it to uber to me. If you need to fill in TWO moveslots to even have a chance with the best Special wall how can you possible defend its case?
 
You argue Manaphy is not uber because Calm Mind Blissey is not bad? How does that make sense?
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Its because no one uses it, and therefore, concluding that its uber. Just because only one pokemon counters it, doesn't really mean it's going to ubers. If an uber is something that debalances the game, I don't see how Manaphy makes a debalance when something right there is available for use that can counter it, and especially when that thing also does other things besides countering Manaphy. If every team is pretty much forced to use some sort of special defense, isn't it the best option to maximize that capability whenever your team needs it?

Of course, not everyone wants Blissey. They think it's uncreative blah blah, but then, it all comes down to this: A successful team must have either a centric strategy, a balance between offense and defense, or both. When it comes down to special walling, you must choose carefully. Snorlax does not have a reliable method of recovery, Cresselia is weak to SHadow Ball and its recovery move is limited AND hampered by Sandstorm. Also, it doesn't have Seismic Toss. Also using Cresselia as your special wall also means you can't use it to counter Garchomp. Empoleon is a no.

Now, when it all comes down to bliss, you must choose again the sets. While you say Manaphy forces to use a different Blissey set, it is not like if the standard set does the real job of a Blissey any better than the Calm Minder one. The standard set itself is a bigger set up bait than the Calm Mind one, and get stalled easier (Skarmory sets up Spikes all over you, Zapdos Roosts on your Tosses/Beams, etc). While the standard Bliss carries a status move, it's really pretty predictable and can be easily handled, thus leaving you with practically one real choice even before Manaphy is considered, although I wonder why people use their standard Bliss and say it counters Zapdos in their RMTs (I believe). Just because it limits the option doesn't mean its uber if that certain set can easily fit in your team and not overspecialize on that particular thing at the same time, as CMBliss does a few more things than just cover up Manaphy which the standard Bliss can't. Yeah, I understand Blissey can be a cleric too, but the D/P metagame is too fast paced for such option

So with that in mind, Manaphy should no longer be the biggest worry in people's teams, and it also solves those who want to use them.

Also, Mekkah. Is that really your Friend Code?
 
Of course, not everyone wants Blissey.
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Of course they don't. I'd say that if you're forced to use a Blissey with two (heck, three with Softboiled) obligatory moveslots filled, Manaphy is pretty much overcentralizing. The mere fact that you can't get away without using a Blissey with Calm Mind/Thunderbolt/Softboiled makes the metagame more centralized.

You seem to be implying that every team needs a Special wall. I prefer to go by resistances. Use Empoleon or Heatran or Jirachi for your Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse in addition to Psychic resistance, and the latter two cover Gengar as well, automatically letting you wall most Special attacking threats. Leaves you with Electrics, which you can use Rhyperior, Garchomp or Swampert or a combination of them for. Or even a random Grasser chosen with common sense.

Calm Mind Blissey may be a good Pokemon and set and all, but you shouldn't force everyone to use one when they might not even need Blissey to begin with if Manaphy isn't there.

Also, Mekkah. Is that really your Friend Code?
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I already got a PM from someone asking if I had some Flgowhufbewi Berries for him, lol. I don't even have D/P.
 
yeah that argument is like in rby... where you have to use rhydon/golem or zapdos will rape your ass
 
Zapdos and Manaphy are definitely incomparable though. Zapdos gets Thunder Waved by everything, can't beat Chansey without an assload of luck and needs some for Alakazam too, can't recover health as easily as Manaphy...can't see where you're coming from.
 
Mekkah said:
Of course they don't. I'd say that if you're forced to use a Blissey with two (heck, three with Softboiled) obligatory moveslots filled, Manaphy is pretty much overcentralizing. The mere fact that you can't get away without using a Blissey with Calm Mind/Thunderbolt/Softboiled makes the metagame more centralized.

You seem to be implying that every team needs a Special wall. I prefer to go by resistances. Use Empoleon or Heatran or Jirachi for your Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse in addition to Psychic resistance, and the latter two cover Gengar as well, automatically letting you wall most Special attacking threats. Leaves you with Electrics, which you can use Rhyperior, Garchomp or Swampert or a combination of them for. Or even a random Grasser chosen with common sense.

Calm Mind Blissey may be a good Pokemon and set and all, but you shouldn't force everyone to use one when they might not even need Blissey to begin with if Manaphy isn't there.
.
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Still, that would leave you weak to Togekiss (Garchomp isn't going to switch into Air Slash) and a few other special attacking weak depending on who out of the 6 are you going to pick. This comes into the problem of taking 2 or 3 pokemon slots to cover a special attacking threat which could be problematic for your team since they may also need to cover something else, versus one slot to cover all special threats barring Lucario and maybe PorygonZ (it's not like Bliss counters PZ anyway). And the fact that there are weaknesses created by using two of them. So, you'd really need about 3 slots to be almost completely safe from special attackers (Jirachi, Rhyperior, Garchomp or something) meaning cramping up your team for one special attacking threat + physical wall. And even after that, there's
Medicham
Heracross
Suicune
Celebi
Garchomp (if Rhy doesn't have Avalanche)
Gyarados (unless Jirachi has Thunderbolt)
Mixmence
Togekiss
Lucario
Infernape

To be aware of, and 2 who can hit on your special defensive side who are covered by Blissey, and that would take up another moveslot. Let's put Electivire in there to stop those 2, and you'll be left with Lucario, Celebi and the physicals. Then, you'd need Mence to cover up Heracross and Celebi, a physical sweeper who doesn't fear Ice Beam (Electivire does not count, seeing as it gets worn down fairly fast and its not that hard to wall), and unless your Jirachi has Thunder/bolt (for Bolt you'd need a LOT of SA to OHKO). This all leaves to covering Lucario where you desperately need prediction to wall, and you need something being able to take shadow balls. Starmie can still Surf down your entire team. Azelf will be causing problems too, unless you use Heatran instead of Jirachi, which will give you Gyarados problems. Putting Weavile on the last slot still leaves you weak to Lucario and Nasty Plot Infernape. And Weavile does not counter Azelf either, but more of a revenge killer, so there will go one of your team members before it dies. Azelf survives a CBPursuit if it stays in on Weavile and OHKOs it back with Nasty Plotted Flamethrower. Also, there are chances Azelf might carry Fire Blast to OHKO Weavile. Then Lucario will simply come in and Aura Sphere your entire team into oblivion (Choice Specs Aura Sphere does like 44% to Mence, and it can always Dragon Pulse that too before doing that). Also, Jirachi takes quite a bit from Draco Meteor. You'll be covered of everything if you have Bliss somewhere.
(and I'll give an obligatory mention of Mixmence, Medicham and Gallade weak)



I didn't say you're forced to use bliss if your team actually has a different sort of team build than that of the standard. That is, if they have some sort of strategy that could possibly hammer through standard teams.
 
Ok I was chatting with Mekkah, and we think this thread has been valuable, but it´s purpose has been served. A consensus has been reached on each potentially uber pokemon, except Manaphy, regarding whether it should be banned or not. Since there is no way to conclusively resolve the Manaphy problem without Competitor, I think it would be wise to decide to leave that decision to testing upon release.

To prevent people from further entrenching themselves one way or the other... and to prevent the endlessly circular debate that is about to ensue, I considered closing this thread for now. I then decided against that because I think it would good to leave it open in case someone has something valuable to say about something other than the Manaphy case. I´m not sure what it would be since decisions have been made on pretty much every other pokemon... but I´ll leave it open all the same.
 
What consensus has been reached?

Sorry.. I am struggling to see what other people see in these discussions..

And also with leaving decisions till later, what does that mean in the mean time? Is it legal or what?

Really, I have tried to keep up with this shit, but atm, I have no idea about anything.

Have a nice day.
 
I'm of the opinion that both Celebi and Manaphy should be banned. If anyone wants me to explain why I think so, I will later.
 
I think my main problem is that this "consensus" is always reached on IRC, when many people (including myself) are not around. Perhaps if people could post a few things so I can see what they are saying?
 
I believe this is more of a summary of the discussion here. Haven't really seen much of a good argument why anything but Tyranitar, Wobbuffet, Manaphy, Celebi and Sheimi should be tested. Everything else seems too broken.
 
AvatarST said:
I'm of the opinion that both Celebi and Manaphy should be banned. If anyone wants me to explain why I think so, I will later.
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please explain why celebi should be banned. i know we went over this on irc, but i still did not see why it should be.
 
Mekkah said:
I believe this is more of a summary of the discussion here. Haven't really seen much of a good argument why anything but Tyranitar, Wobbuffet, Manaphy, Celebi and Sheimi should be tested. Everything else seems too broken.
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Yes!

And also with leaving decisions till later, what does that mean in the mean time? Is it legal or what?
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I assume you are talking about wi-fi... we don´t really have any dominion over that. If we are going to sponsor a wi-fi tournament, the director of it will decide. Otherwise we cannot legislate what will be used outside of the Smogon Competitor Server.
 
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