Togekiss

yawn said:
An entire togekiss discussion without mentioning its best set?!?

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Timid
Serene Grace
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Trick
~ Air Slash
~ Aura Sphere/Yawn
~ Roost/Wish

Yeah, trick is hgss move tutor only, but otherwise with the scarf air slash is amazing. Even better, the rotom forms lose their ghost typing so aura sphere covers all of its counters except zapdos. Yawn is still an option since togekiss has nice bulk to survive.
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I love Scarfkiss, but why a healing move over a coverage move? I use it as a lead now with Flamethrower for Skarmory/Scizor/Forretress, but there are other good choices as well (and now we have the new Psychic move as a choice.)
 
NP togekiss is one of my favorite sweepers in OU but i feel like he's gonna get outclassed in terms of power, speed, and typing in this new metagame. not sure, but we'll see.
 
too much NP in here to leave out the most infamous set. this set is pretty much unchanged in gen 5 and will probably be just as good:

togekiss @ leftovers
serene grace
252 hp 4 spa 252 spd
calm
roost
thunder wave
aura sphere
air slash

all around great set. rotom won't be able to wall it anymore
 
As much as I love the idea behind Psycho Shock blasting holes in Blissey, I really can't find a spot for it in a set. Air Slash is always the main attacking move, Aura Sphere is great for taking out the likes of T-Tar and is great for when you know it will KO them and don't want to risk Air Slash missing. I was using a LO + NP + 3 attacks set which seems to work well for me, the only issue is that you lack a recovery move and your choices for moves 2 and 3 are so vast that you will have a hard time picking one. I have tried using Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere but since Rotom-A is no longer ghost I see little reason to get Shadow Ball. FlameThrower/ Fire Blast is a good choice but aside from taking out steel types since all the steels in gen4 OU have 2nd types that cause Aura Sphere to not be super effective.
I also use him for Baton Passing NP on my joke pass team, I know that Volbeat gets priority Tail Glow and priority pass but is to frail to survive a hit without any defensive boosts or subs. I like Toge for BP for his awesome bulk and access to Wish. Togekiss can also be an offensive threat on pass teams if it has some speed and maybe a defense or two. In current play with all the taunts and phazing, Passing is pretty much dead anyway, I only do it as a joke to sweep people with a Blissey with a Life Orb.

Togekiss doesn't need alot of help from other Pokemon to be successful, it can find a spot on any team. Toge + Electrivire is still an awesome combo (which I have been using for since the start of gen4), Togekiss + Jolteon can work in a similar way with the new Lightningrod.

A fun thing I did a few months back was creating a team of 6 Togekisses with unique movesets and all using different items for the sake of proving that it is the most useful pokemon in OU. I might go and post the details in an other thread tonight, but needless to say, it works really well!
Here is a list of all the things Togekiss can do:
Bulky sweeper with Nasty Plot
Paraflinch
Baton Pass with Nasty Plot and substitute
Anti lead with encore and T-Wave (my favorite set as of now, nobody uses it so they don't know how to fight it)
Mixed attacker with Hustle and STAB Extreme Speed
Dual Screens + Safegaurd
Wish pass
Wish stall
Heal bell
He is a great late game sweeper
He also can run a good choice set for both scarf and specs

With a special attack of 125 and 85/95/115 defenses, I don't really see a reason why togekiss would not be OU. If it wasn't for his lackluster typing and mediocre speed (80) he would easily be one of the most common pokemon in the metagame. I will still be using one in Gen5 because I try to use my favorites and Brogekiss is my favorite pokemon :3

My only problem is that my other favorite birdie, Honchkrow, is exclusive to Black while Toge is only in White, and I need the krow for Nasty Plot >.<
 
I think one of the problems with Togekiss is that it doesn't have enough moveslots to take out all of its weaknesses. Without Nasty Plot it doesn't hit hard enough to seriously threaten things like Blissey. Without Thunder Wave/Body Slam it isn't fast enough to flinch them to death. Without Subsitute it is crippled by status.

Not to mention trying to block status with a lum berry makes you prone to sandstorm damage/stealth rock without that boost from leftovers. If Gen 5 gave Togekiss 5 moveslots then it'd be fantastic, otherwise it is brought down by that one weakness.
 
Chan said:
I think one of the problems with Togekiss is that it doesn't have enough moveslots to take out all of its weaknesses. Without Nasty Plot it doesn't hit hard enough to seriously threaten things like Blissey. Without Thunder Wave/Body Slam it isn't fast enough to flinch them to death. Without Subsitute it is crippled by status.

Not to mention trying to block status with a lum berry makes you prone to sandstorm damage/stealth rock without that boost from leftovers. If Gen 5 gave Togekiss 5 moveslots then it'd be fantastic, otherwise it is brought down by that one weakness.
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Giving a pokemon like Togekiss a weakness or a counter adds depth to the game and if you ask me is sort of a good thing. If there was absolutely no way to counter a poke then it would be moved to UBER. Togekiss has its flaws, its special attack is high, but not enough to down a blissey without protection for Subs or Safegaurd. He is screwed if they can poison or paralyze him, but that is why there are pokemon with Heal Bell (like Togekiss :D) giving Togekiss Substitute is good for blocking blissey's toxics and T Waves.

Togekiss's other counter that is very common in todays metagame, Rotom-A, is not going to be an issue in Gen5 because he no longer resists/is immune to Togekiss's most common attacks, you will still need to worry about the likes of Zapdos and Jolteon, however.

One of the cool things about Togekiss is that he can do so much but only has room for 4 moves. You can go with Paraflinch or give him a 3rd attack, you can give him encore and mess up guys trying to set up on you, you can do three attacks and achieve better coverage. Zapdos, Rotom-classic, Rotom-S (lol flying+levitate) and that genie guy who is electric are the only guys who can resist Aura Sphere and Air Slash in gen5. Togekiss may have lost roost, but it also lost one of its biggest counters, a fair trade if you ask me.

If one is ballsy enough to forgo T-Wave and add a 3rd attack like me, then I would recommend something like this:

Item: Leftovers or Life Orb
EVspreads:
with Leftovers: 40hp/212SPAtk/252 speed (you will have 321 HP)
With Life Orb: 4hp/252 SpAtk/252SPeed
Timid Nature
Moves:
Nasty Plot
Air Slash
Aura Sphere/Fire Blast
HP Ice/Psycho Shock/HP ground/Fire Blast/Water Pulse(dat confusion)

HP Ice is for Zapdos, Rotom S and the genie. HP ground is for Jolteon, Electrivire, Metagross, and Heatran. Fire Blast is for Steels that are not named Heatran and tend to have 2nd types that resist Fighting. Psycho Shock can be a big F%$# YOU! to Blissey, but Aura Sphere is generally a better move. Water Pulse was a move I used on my first Togekiss at the start of Gen4, I like it, I like the 40% confuse chance, I was very surprised that it is never used on Togekiss (it kicked ass in Battle Tower :D).

Don't forget about Choice Scarf, Scarfekiss is an awesome revenge killer that is like a cool person's Jirachi with Iron Head.
 
Psycho Shock could be a total random hit in the balls for special walls. That's the nice thing about Togekiss; it's like Clefairy in OU. Unpredictable.

Super Luck blows though.
 
Bynine said:
Psycho Shock could be a total random hit in the balls for special walls. That's the nice thing about Togekiss; it's like Clefairy in OU. Unpredictable.
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The Nasty Plot set Togekiss (with Timid Nature) could do 56.5% - 66.6% damage after one Nasty Plot with Psycho Shock on a Max Def / Max HP Blissey (with Bold Nature). Reliable 2HKO from a special attacker on Blissey? Balls hit my friend, balls hit o.0

Now the only question remaining is which move do you switch out for Psycho Shock? That is the million dollar question :P
 
How does a mixed Cheer Up Togekiss not beat its counters, Blissey, Rotom and Zapdos??

Consider this :

Togekiss @ Life Orb
Adamant/Lonely/Naughty

56HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe

-Cheer Up
-Extremespeed
-Drain Punch
-Fire Blast

Now this thing reaches 637 Atk after a Cheer Up. That makes a more powerful Extremespeed than +2 Adamant Life Orb Lucario. In addition it is not stopped by Skarmory/Foretress/Nattorei/Scizor, all of which are OHKOed by a +1 Fire Blast (only very specially defensive Bronzong can survive), even assuming an Adamant nature.

So how does this thing deal with Blissey Zapdos and Rotom?

-Blissey
+1 Drain Punch against 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey : 73 %- 86 %
That means that Togekiss not only beats Blissey, but also gets a free full health recovery from her! Heck you can even set up more Cheer Ups on her while she uses Toxi and Seismic Toss, and eventually come out on top with a poison status, yes, but at full health and +2/+3 in both offensive stats. Even if you got Thunderwaved you'd still have an insanely powerful priority. I really don't see how Blissey is beating this.

-Zapdos
Physically defensive Zapdos takes 60% minimum from a +1 Fire Blast, so assuming you U-Turned on it a couple of times with Scizor, it'll be in KO range, and Togekiss outspeeds the standard variant.
Offensive variants are ALWAYS OHKOed byt +1 Extremespeed after SR.

-Rotom-W (the most common one in Gen V)
Physically Defensive Rotom- W is always 2HKOed by a +1 Extremespeed even without SR. Actually, if SR is on the field, you can even use Extremespeed first while it never OHKOes back with T-Bolt or Discharge, and recover health with Drain Punch. With SR, the 2 add up to a surefire 2HKO!
Like Zapdos, Scarf Rotom-A is always OHKOed by a +1 Extremespeed after SR

So i really don't see the issues this guy has with his "usual counters". The only problem I can see here is accuracy, since all the moves have 80~85 accuracy, but this still looks a ton of fun.
 
are you using hustle on that set? otherwise a +1 togekiss not come anywhere near 637 attack.

If you are then the accuracy hit makes it worse than lucario's ES.
 
Okay, I had an interesting set mentione in the Claw Sharpen thread.

Hustlekiss (Claw Sharpen reciever)
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Nature: Naughty
EVs: 252 Atk / 248 SpA / 8 Spe
- Extremespeed
- Fire Blast
- HP Ground
- Shadow Ball / Grass Knot / Roost
Normally, Claw Sharpen is a really bad move... but on Hustle Pokemon, the combination of Hustle + Claw Sharpen results in 106% of attacks' regular accuracy, and 2.25x as much Attack, which is even better than a Swords Dance boost. The obvious problem is that Togekiss doesn't learn Claw Sharpen, but when Baton Passed even a single boost of it from the likes of Blaziken (who, by the way, has no business passing that when it could pass Swords Dance; however Claw Sharpen + Speed Boost is helpful) or Aianto, it turns into a hypernasty Extremekiller. Other moves on the set are, obviously, for beating things that ExSpeed wont.

It takes a little more care in setting up, but IMO it is much better than Cheer Up sets. :0

doomvendingmachine said:
A cheer up hustle mixed attacker could be lulzy. Just wondering, I know hustle only boosts physical moves, but does it reduce the accuracy of all moves or just physical ones?
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For the record, yes, only physical moves have their accuracy reduced. :0
 
Quaily said:
togekiss does not learn claw sharpen(it has no claws see) which makes that set difficult to run
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The set above is intended to be a Claw Sharpen recipient. Togekiss can recieve Claw Sharpen boosts from Blaziken or Shedinja (who, of course, can Baton Pass the boosts to it).
 
....no. Shedinja is a terrible baton passer with all the weather/hazards/buttload of SE attacks floating around that can easily kill it. My suggestion was Aianto, who DOES get Claw Sharpen and benefits from it more than anyone else, due to the fact that it ALSO gets Hustle (and because it and Kiss have decent synergy).

Blaziken is only good for that if you're passing to Hustlers, since most of them don't get Claw Sharpen and appreciate the Speed. It should be noted that Swords-Passer Blaziken is superior to Claw-Passer in every situation except this one, though. :0

And yes, Quaily, please read my whole post before you point out issues that I've already talked about. :/
 
I always liked Togekiss, though a max SpA/Spe Nasty Plot doesn't seem to really be taking advantage of her natural strength (I used a Scarfer a lot in 4th gen)

something like Thunder Wave/Nasty Plot/Air Slash/Roost with a defensive spread seems promising for this metagame - a lot of threats who want no part of paralysis and once you've spread it around you can go for a sweep. The 4th gen Support set is also something I'll get to trying out - acceptably-sized HP for Wish, though not spectacular compared to, say, Blissey.
 
HiddenDragon72 said:
I don't think Togekiss is at a huge risk of a demotion. Good stats, nice moveset and the fact that it was popular in gen IV makes it likely Toge-fans will find ways to make sure Togekiss stays on top ;)
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This. Togekiss's Solid stat distribution, incredible movepool, and great ability all contribute to its awesomeness.
 
I think togekiss could be very useful this gen, but only because of all the new threats, not her new moves. Roopushin is one of the biggest threats around, breloom is super popular, Jaroda, erufuun, zuruzukin, ulgamoth, and the three fighting legendaries, to name some. Add that to the fact that a lot of the new threats are slow as dirt, which makes haxing that much easier, and bam, more usage. I haven't run into many yet, but when I do I usually have trouble.
 
Togekiss is a good example of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". It didn't receive anything of particular value, but it has such a great niche in this metagame on paper. It seems that the metagame was more centered around Togekiss in my opinion: lots of new threats could be checked or revenge-killed by Togekiss. I love it.
 
Don't forget, there's so much Togekiss can do I'm sure it can find a new niche even if all the old standard sets are outclassed or left behind. My favourite Gen 4 Pokemon, should remain as fun in Gen 5.
 
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