Togekiss

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Togekiss_icon.png


~* Togekiss *~
~* The Jubilee Pokemon *~

~*~*~*~*~
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~*~*~*~*~

~* Base Stats *~
85 | 50 | 95 | 120 | 115 | 80

~* Abilities *~
Serene Grace - doubles the chance of a move having an additional effect
Hustle - increases Attack stat by 50%, lowers Accuracy of physical moves by 20%
Super Luck (Dream World) - doubles the chance of a critical hit​

Level Up (Togetic)
Lv.1 Growl
Lv.1 Charm
Lv.5 Metronome
Lv.9 Sweet Kiss
Lv.13 Yawn
Lv.17 Encore
Lv.21 Follow Me
Lv.25 Desperation *
Lv.29 Wish
Lv.33 AncientPower
Lv.37 Safeguard
Lv.41 Baton Pass
Lv.45 Double-Edge
Lv.49 Last Resort
Lv.53 Assemble Crew *

Heart Scale
Magical Leaf (Togetic)
Sky Attack
ExtremeSpeed
Aura Sphere
Air Slash

TM/HM (BW)
TM03 Psycho Shock*
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM19 Telekinesis*
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solarbeam
TM27 Return
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM35 Flamethower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Troll*
TM49 Echo Voice*
TM56 Fling
TM59 Complete Burn*
TM67 Get Even*
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM77 Psych Up
TM83 Cheer Up*
TM85 Dream Eater
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Pluck
TM90 Substitute
TM94 Rock Smash
HM02 Fly

TM/HM (RSE/DPPt)
TM01 Focus Punch
TM03 Water Pulse
TM34 Shock Wave
TM43 Secret Power
TM48 Steel Wing

TM/HM (DPPt)
TM51 Roost
TM58 Endure
TM60 Drain Punch
TM62 Silver Wind
TM78 Captivate
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
HM05 Defog

! The following are assumed NOT compatible with Super Luck !

Egg Moves
Present
Mirror Move
Peck
Foresight
Future Sight
Nasty Plot
Psycho Shift
Lucky Chant
Extrasensory
Secret Power
Assist Power*
Morning Sun

Move Tutor (E)
Body Slam
Counter
Defense Curl
Mega Kick
Mega Punch
Mimic
Seismic Toss
Softboiled

Move Tutor (Pt)
Air Cutter
Ancientpower
Endeavor
Heat Wave
Icy Wind
Last Resort
Mud-Slap
Rollout
Signal Beam
Snore
Swift
Trick
Twister
Zen Headbutt

Move Tutor (HGSS)
Headbutt
Heal Bell
Magic Coat
Sky Attack
Tailwind

XD Gale of Darkness
Tri Attack
Level Up (Togetic)
Lv.13 Yawn
Lv.17 Encore
Lv.25 Desperation*
Lv.29 Wish
Lv.41 Baton Pass

Heart Scale
Aura Sphere
Air Slash

TM/HM (BW)
TM03 Psycho Shock*
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM33 Reflect
TM35 Flamethower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM83 Cheer Up*
TM86 Grass Knot
TM90 Substitute

TM/HM (DPPt)
TM51 Roost

! The following are assumed NOT compatible with Super Luck !

Egg Moves
Nasty Plot

Move Tutor (E)
Body Slam

Move Tutor (Pt)
Air Cutter
Trick

Move Tutor (HGSS)
Heal Bell

XD Gale of Darkness
Tri Attack
Desperation | Special | Fighting | 5 | - | - | KOs the user and deals damage equal to the user's remaining HP
This move is very interesting to me. It's essentially an Explosion that blows through defenses completely, but for it to be most effective it must be used at full health.

Assemble Crew | Other | Normal | 12 | - | 100 | Makes target's ability the same as the user's
Maybe could be used with Hustle, but that's still not a good tradeoff

Psycho Shock | Special | Psychic | 10 | 80 | 100 | Calculates Damage with target's Defense stat
Nice on a Nasty Plot set if you can find room for it. It takes away from Togekiss's good coverage.

Telekinesis | Other | Psychic | 15 | - | - | Makes target easier to hit for 3 turns
Not worth the move slot.

Troll | Special | Normal | 15 | 60 | 100 | Raises BP for each Pokemon in your party with this attack
I really want to build a team with Troll users...just to be trollin.

Echo Voice | Special | Normal | 15 | 40 | 100 | Deals more damage used consecutively
Togekiss has better options for attacking with immediate force.

Complete Burn | Special | Fire | 15 | 30 | 100 | Destroys opponent's berry
Way too low BP, and the effect would only hurt a few mons

Get Even | Physical | Normal | 5 | 70 | 100 | Deals more damage if teammate was KO'd last turn
There's better users of it than Togekiss, like ones with passable Attack stats.

Cheer Up | Other | Normal | 30 | - | - | Raises user's Attack and Special Attack
Maybe Togekiss can't use the Attack boost, but Baton Passing it to a mixed attacker wouldn't hurt any.

Assist Power | Special | Psychic | 10 | 20 | 100 | The more stat boosts the user has, the more damage this attack deals
Sort of meh. If you want to use a Psychic move, you're better off using Psycho Shock

~*~*~*~*~

Togekiss @ Life Orb
Timid
Serene Grace
252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe / 4HP
~ Nasty Plot
~ Roost/Psycho Shock
~ Air Slash
~ Aura Sphere/Flamethrower

A Nasty Plot Togekiss that could possibly make use of Psycho Shock if you're willing to give up Roost recovery. The only reason you should opt for Flamethrower is if Scizor, Aianto or Nattorei are going to be a problem.

~*~*~*~*~

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Bold
Serene Grace
252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
~ Nasty Plot/Cheer Up
~ Substitute/Encore
~ Baton Pass
~ Roost/Wish/Encore

Cheer Up could potentially be a great stat up to pass to a fast sweeper who's attacking stats have a lot to be desired. Some that come to mind are Agirudaa, Erufuun, Crobat, Chirachiino, and Jaroda. (Edit: Epic Fail, didn't even include Baton Pass on a Baton Pass set.)

~*~*~*~*~

So what do you think? Will Togekiss remain a contender this generation, or will the influx of high speed/high attack sweepers banish him to the realm of uselessness? Feel free to suggest additional sets, comment, whatever. (I would really like to see one with Desperation, but couldn't think of a viable one myself) I really hope no one else posted a Togekiss analysis before this one...because I spent a lot of time on this. Lol.
 
Aw, I was hoping Togekiss would be able to learn Calm Mind this generation. :(

Overall, everything is pretty boring. Not much has changed...oh well. Hustle + Cheer up has the potential to be interesting, though. We'll see.

EDIT: Hmmmm...

Togekiss @ Life Orb
Hustle
Hasty
EVs: 204 Atk/68 SpA/236 Spe
IVs: 29 HP
-Cheer up
-Extremespeed
-Flamethrower
-Aura Sphere

Walled by Burunkeru, but it can't really do anything back. I think this has the potential to work, but CB Scizor/ScarfTar elimination and Rapid Spin support are required.

204 Atk lets you 2HKO things like Bulky Gyarados most of the time after Intimidate, as well as OHKO Starmie with Extremespeed.

Also, this thing really needs spikes to guarantee some OHKOs.
 
I don't think Togekiss is at a huge risk of a demotion. Good stats, nice moveset and the fact that it was popular in gen IV makes it likely Toge-fans will find ways to make sure Togekiss stays on top ;)
 
poor togekiss. She was always held back by lack luster typing. She does have a lot over other pokemon (her insane movepool, solid stats) but this generation i think will find her being left in the dust by the utter power and speed of the new special attackers. Thats not to say she is not powerful or useful by any standards. She will be kind of like arcanine; a viable, but unconventional choice.
 
Togekiss is one of those Pokemon that wishes they could have two abilities at once, Yanmega and Porygon-Z to name some others. She is very similar to Arcanine in that her stats are pretty good all-round (except Attack, of course) but fails to make a huge statement.
 
Togekiss @ Leftovers
Bold
Serene Grace
252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
~ Nasty Plot/Cheer Up
~ Substitute
~ Encore
~ Roost/Wish

Cheer Up could potentially be a great stat up to pass to a fast sweeper who's attacking stats have a lot to be desired. (Some that come to mind are Agirudaa, Erufuun, Crobat, Chirachiino, and Jaroda).

Where is Baton Pass on this set?
 
Well, its usage has hovered around #30, I thought. Its popular because its so darn cute.
Well, Thunderwave is different, e.g you can't sweep unless you've paralysed everything faster than you which needs to be outsped.

Anyway, what is actually significantly changing for it this generation?

The problem with Kiss currently is that offensively, it requires a lot of team support to get off the ground (even though its kind of scary with some paralysis spread around). That kind of effort is still probably better spent on something else.
Togekiss has a great support movepool and is pretty specially bulky too, but most of its functions (it can set up Screens, Wish pass etc) are done better by other things (mainly due to typing). One of the few things Togekiss actually does better by itself than other stuff is Nasty Plot pass.
 
A cheer up hustle mixed attacker could be lulzy. Just wondering, I know hustle only boosts physical moves, but does it reduce the accuracy of all moves or just physical ones?
 
God, practically the ONLY move that Super Luck gets to exploit is the slightly inaccurate Air Slash - oh well, it's Special and it gets STAB so it's not horrible. There's also Air Cutter, which is essentially the same move but weaker and able to hit multiple targets in Doubles and Triples - that's Tutored so it's unlikely Togekiss can use it.

Considering Togekiss' amazing movepool I suppose it's a bit much to ask for a range of nasty Crit moves as well. Maybe it will get at a few more crit moves in Gen 5.
 
God, practically the ONLY move that Super Luck gets to exploit is the slightly inaccurate Air Slash - oh well, it's Special and it gets STAB so it's not horrible. There's also Air Cutter, which is essentially the same move but weaker and able to hit multiple targets in Doubles and Triples - that's Tutored so it's unlikely Togekiss can use it.

Considering Togekiss' amazing movepool I suppose it's a bit much to ask for a range of nasty Crit moves as well. Maybe it will get at a few more crit moves in Gen 5.

You DO know compete gen 5 movepools are out right? You can check if togekiss gets more crit moves yourself, lol.
 
Togekiss basically didn't get anything this generation. That's not really a problem because it was already fantastic and underrated, but it's disappointing.

A few comments:

1. Cheer Up is terrible (no one uses both attacking stats and needs a boost in them)
2. Flamethrower isn't needed "for Scizor", NP Air Slash OHKOs
3. Psycho Shock is kind of cool but I think is probably not going to see much use. You gain surprisingly little on most Pokemon with it. Consider your main counters are Zapdos and Rotom (equal stats) and that you have Aura Sphere for Tyranitar and Blissey and there's just no reason to use it.
4. Super Luck was always a terrible ability so complaining that Togekiss doesn't get anything to exploit it is kind of silly. I mean, it's not like Absol is OU because it can get crits more often.
 
You DO know compete gen 5 movepools are out right? You can check if togekiss gets more crit moves yourself, lol.

Yeah, but the organisation is just terrible, to be honest.

Finding one page with all the Pokemon's stats, movesets, dreamworld abilities, normal abilities, egg moves, TM/HM Moves, what the moves and abilities do, and not with that annoying Coding system, is actually beyond impossible right now.
 
This generation is a mixed bag for togekiss, in terms of competition. Things tend to be really fast, or really slow, and not a whole lot in the middle. The addition of alot of new pokes slower than her bodes well for her paraflinch set, and simply t-waving things on the switch is likely to cripple alot of the new, faster sweepers. T-wave now paralyzing through volt absorb/motor drive stops electivire, jolteon, and the new zebra from punishing you're paralysis spam, but ground types still ruin your fun.

On the other hand, we also got a good deal of pokemon that are just downright poewrful, and togekiss will have a somewhat hard time taking hits to set up t-wave, or nastyplot.
 
To me, it doesn't look like Togekiss gets anything that justifies losing Roost in the transition between DP and BW. Togekiss raised in Isshu are going to be at a disadvantage to ones that are raised in Sinnoh/Johto.

As for me, I use the Paraflinch set to annoy Special Attackers into submission. If they stay in, hopefully I can roost up before I get KO'd. If they switch, I have another target to Paralyze. I think the Paraflinch set will still be good in BW.
 
Nasty Plot pass could still be nice ...so Togekiss just can't get Roost now? Basically forces you to rely on Wish (which is great for support but makes sweeping kinda difficult)
 
Nasty Plot pass could still be nice ...so Togekiss just can't get Roost now? Basically forces you to rely on Wish (which is great for support but makes sweeping kinda difficult)

Togekiss would, as far as we know, only be incompatible with roost if you wanted to use gen 5 egg moves or dream world abilities.
 
Only the Physical ones. I didn't know that either until I did this :)

This is not true. All moves take an accuracy hit with Hustle.

Mixed sweepers go mixed to hurt specific threats with higher stats in one area. I don't see why if you're going to the trouble of taking a turn to stat up, you would diversify in that. Not a lot can take +2 Special attacks from Togekiss and these Pokemon are special cases that should be treated as such.

Seriously, Blissey can be beaten by NP Togekiss relatively easily. Togekiss's biggest counters were Zapdos and Rotom which Cheer Up does nothing to help against. The only good thing I could see about Cheer Up would be that it's a move that boosts the power of Extremespeed so you're not tied to a Choice Band if you wanted to go that route.
 
Togekiss isn't a great option for mixed really, thinking about its common counters. NP Togekiss doesn't easily beat Blissey at all, it depends a lot on the movesets and luck from each side. If Tog has Heal Bell, or gets lots of flinches, it will win. Typically Blissey will just cripple Tog before dying or bringing something else in on to scare it off.
 
An entire togekiss discussion without mentioning its best set?!?

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Timid
Serene Grace
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Trick
~ Air Slash
~ Aura Sphere/Yawn
~ Roost/Wish

Yeah, trick is hgss move tutor only, but otherwise with the scarf air slash is amazing. Even better, the rotom forms lose their ghost typing so aura sphere covers all of its counters except zapdos. Yawn is still an option since togekiss has nice bulk to survive.
 
This is not true. All moves take an accuracy hit with Hustle.
I'm quite sure that Hustle does only affect the accuracy of physical moves, but I couldn't find confirmation for or against it (Smogon forum and Google). So I've done a quick research in Pokémon White:

I transfered a lvl 100 Togekiss with Hustle knowing Flamethrower and Extremespeed and killed some Pokémon on the first route. I'm quite sure that there were no accuracy modifiers (Togekiss wasn't holding an item, killed opponents on the first turn; not that sure whether the first route Pokémon carry items that change accuracy):

I used Flamethrower 60 times, out of these Flamethrower successfully hit the opponent 60 times (100%).

Extremespeed was used by me 20 times and out of these 20 times it hit 15 times (75%) and missed 5 times (25%).

I know that 60 times is probably not enough to prove that Hustle doesn't change the accuracy of special moves, but it's enough to prove my apprehension (for myself) how Hustle works. The chance that Flamethrower is affected by Hustle and the ingame RNG just trolled me is ~0.0001532%.
___

Anyway, I think that mixed CheerUp Togekiss w/ Hustle is undervalued in this thread. Togekiss' biggest issues with NP sets are not necessary that it has next to perfect counters called Zapdos and Rotom-A, but rather it's low speed that makes Kiss very easy to be revenge killed, despite its decent bulk. You need either heavy TW support, or you are playing against full stall, who often / always have Rotom-A for spin blocking.

Mixed Togekiss with Hustle and Extremespeed can deal with certain switch ins and adds more diversity to Togekiss. I've done some calcs with LO Hustle Togekiss (252 Atk, attack boosting nature), note that I don't want to advertise this stat spread, I just want to show what is possible with Extremespeed and that it is indeed useful. You can drop LO / positive boosting nature / some atk EVs, but you will have huge power drops.

Anyway, here are the calcs:
+1 Hustle 252Atk+ LO Togekiss vs
0/0 Timid Jolteon - 129.5% - 152.8%
(Starmie, Infernape, Azelf, Breloom, Dragonite, Weavile (ES has +2 prio now) are always OHKO'd after SR without bigger bulk investment, whereas Flygon, Kingdra (offensive) and Rotom-A (offensive, lost Ghost typing) have a high change to be OHKO'd after SR)

252/252 Bold Blissey - 59% - 69.5%
252/168 Rotom-A - 56.3% - 66.4%
248/228 Bold Zapdos - 49.3% - 58.2%
0/4 Timid Zapdos - 82.6% - 97.5%
(+0 Kiss) 0/4 Naive Salamence - 56.2% - 66.2%

252/252 Bold Suicune - 37.9% - 44.6%
4/0 Jolly Tyranitar - 31.3% - 36.8%
Note that two ES (64% accuracy) will deal more damage than one +1 ES. Unluckily the damage compared to +2 Adamant LO Scizor's Bullet Punch is significant lower (+1 Togekiss' ES only has 82.9% the damage value compared to +2 Scizor's BP; though +1 Togekiss has a 5% stronger ES than +2 Lucario).

I know that Togekiss is not comparable to these two good physical sweeper, neither does it have good physical attack options unlike these two and that this EV spread is impractical. Hustle lowers ES' accuracy to Stone Edge (aka will always miss when you need it and never against Lucario) level too and it can't flinch slower Pokémon. I know that.

The only thing I wanted to show is that CheerUp and Extremespeed indeed can help with Togekiss' usual issues, despite being a gimmick. It makes Togekiss a late game cleaner without relying on too much support and it can even deal to a certain level with Rotom-A and Zapdos. Yeah, Nasty Plot sets and Paraflinching will be of course more useful, CheerUp just gives Togekiss more options. That's the only thing I wanted to show.
__

Otherwise GenV doesn't seem to be very nice to Togekiss. Now we have Doryuzuu (the mole) who gets it's speed doubled in sand and it's immune to TW and may get a free SD on Togekiss.

Togekiss isn't even the best NP passer (bar Mew) in the game any longer, as Volbeat has now priority Tail Glow (+3 SpA now), priority Baton Pass (and priority TW / Encore), so it's not vulnerable to being outspeed by certain common switch ins who will easily OHKO Togekiss and prevent a quick pass like ScarfTar / Zapdos / Rotom-A.
 
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