This has probably been asked before, but after using a Dusknoir with Torment for a time, I must ask the question: why is Torment practically never used at all? It works wonders on defensively-minded Pokemon, especially with the propensity of Choice-users running around all over the metagame. Dusknoir is a great example. One of his best counters is Heracross (who carries either Choice Band or Choice Scarf 99% of the time). Heracross thinks he's coming in on a predicted Will-o-wisp, but Dusknoir has a trick up his sleeve: Torment. Not only did Heracross fail to get the Guts boost he desired, but he also has to switch out after using one move. So Dusknoir can just hang around, use Pain Split or something, as Pursuit does crappy damage and Heracross is forced out. And Dusknoir isn't exactly begging for moveslots (you can easily fit Torment in with Shadow Sneak//Will-o-Wisp//Pain Split//Torment). So with all the clear advantages, where's Torment?
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Torment (Yeah, the OTHER Taunt)
- Thread starter Jediment
- Start date
Torment + Substitute could be a great combination. Torment first then use substitute, if is´t a choice user the opponent will have to switch, depending of the pokemon it will need to use a move that cannot break the sub, giving you a free turn to baton pass, focus punch, stat up, etc.
Well, if you're using it this way, wouldn't torment + protect be better?
I think the biggest reason Torment isn't used is the difficulty in using it. I mean, it really hurts a lot of defensive pokemon, but about as much as Taunt does. Some defensive pokemon aren't at all affected by Torment (Wish+Protect Bliss.) Things like Hippowdon are probably hit harder by Torment than Taunt, though. Against offensive pokemon, Torment wins.
I think the biggest thing is this. Things like Tauntdos, Taunt DD Tar and them mainly use Taunt to help set up. The idea of using Taunt as a way to hurt defensive teams isn't widely used. There have been a few threads about how Taunt can be used 'offensively' as a way to hurt stall teams, but not many people use Taunt like that. In terms of letting people set up, Torment isn't as effective as Taunt, most of the time.
I think the biggest thing is this. Things like Tauntdos, Taunt DD Tar and them mainly use Taunt to help set up. The idea of using Taunt as a way to hurt defensive teams isn't widely used. There have been a few threads about how Taunt can be used 'offensively' as a way to hurt stall teams, but not many people use Taunt like that. In terms of letting people set up, Torment isn't as effective as Taunt, most of the time.
Torment would only work against a Choice user if a Choice user is already out. So if your Tormentor isn't in there, he has to switch in, and since there's as many different Choice users as snowflakes, your Tormentor cannot be a Choice counter by definition. The best one remains prediction.
In your example, Heracross would indeed have to switch into Dusknoir predicting Will-o-Wisp. But Heracross and Dusknoir cannot really harm each other whatsoever anyway unless Heracross has Night Slash. And Torment will never really help you against Salamence and the likes...
And what about Dusknoir not begging for moveslots? Almost every decent Pokemon would love more than four, and Dusknoir is no exception. He's not Luvdisc or Flareon - he has the whole Elemental Punch arsenal for specific countering as well as Earthquake to use.
In your example, Heracross would indeed have to switch into Dusknoir predicting Will-o-Wisp. But Heracross and Dusknoir cannot really harm each other whatsoever anyway unless Heracross has Night Slash. And Torment will never really help you against Salamence and the likes...
And what about Dusknoir not begging for moveslots? Almost every decent Pokemon would love more than four, and Dusknoir is no exception. He's not Luvdisc or Flareon - he has the whole Elemental Punch arsenal for specific countering as well as Earthquake to use.
But a free sub give you the possibility to baton pass or use focus punch.
Interesting concept. I like it better than Taunt because it makes it harder for them to get two SDs or whatever in and they also are unable to attack twice. It is really annoying.
Not exactly. If you sub and they break it, then you just lost 25% life.
Well, i guess both have their uses in different situations.
WRONG. If the opponent is slower than you, torment is great. Taunt isn't easier to predict, because you can't predict torment >.> Torment is always used after a move wich means there isn't something to predict.
This is not a response to anyone's post in particular, but I've been experimenting with Torment lately and I want to clarify how it works for everyone here.
Torment is a status effect that is removed only when the target switches. While under the effect of Torment, a Pokémon cannot choose the move that it used on the previous turn.
Unlike Taunt, using Torment can never prevent a Pokémon from using a move on the turn Torment is used. Example: on round one, PlayerA switches in the Torment user and PlayerB uses Flamethrower. On round two, PlayerA uses Torment (and is faster). PlayerB's second Flamethrower will still go off. However, PlayerB will not be able to select Flamethrower on round 3.
Torment bypasses Substitute but is blocked by Protect. The effects of Torment are not Baton Pass-able.
The upshot of this is that Torment works better on slow, bulky Pokémon (like Dusknoir). It helps if the user of Torment has relatively few weaknesses. This way, chances are good that opponent Pokémon will only have one move in their arsenal that hits the Torment user for high damage.
Although I haven't tested Torment much myself in real battles, if I were to use it, it would probably work best on Nidoqueen, Muk, Hypno, Weezing, Umbreon, Dusknoir, and Spiritomb.
Torment is a status effect that is removed only when the target switches. While under the effect of Torment, a Pokémon cannot choose the move that it used on the previous turn.
Unlike Taunt, using Torment can never prevent a Pokémon from using a move on the turn Torment is used. Example: on round one, PlayerA switches in the Torment user and PlayerB uses Flamethrower. On round two, PlayerA uses Torment (and is faster). PlayerB's second Flamethrower will still go off. However, PlayerB will not be able to select Flamethrower on round 3.
Torment bypasses Substitute but is blocked by Protect. The effects of Torment are not Baton Pass-able.
The upshot of this is that Torment works better on slow, bulky Pokémon (like Dusknoir). It helps if the user of Torment has relatively few weaknesses. This way, chances are good that opponent Pokémon will only have one move in their arsenal that hits the Torment user for high damage.
Although I haven't tested Torment much myself in real battles, if I were to use it, it would probably work best on Nidoqueen, Muk, Hypno, Weezing, Umbreon, Dusknoir, and Spiritomb.
Heracross expects to snag a Guts boost then smash a fleeing Dusknoir with Pursuit.
Going with what Nitpicker said, Torment is not really designed to do anything in the same way as Taunt. One could call it the defensive Taunt, since while Taunt is used to set up, Torment is used to block attackers (primarily Choice users, but with a bit of trickery you can screw over just about anything).
Yeah, Torment could be considered as a specific counter to Heracross, as well as for choice users in general.Mekkah said:
Going with what Nitpicker said, Torment is not really designed to do anything in the same way as Taunt. One could call it the defensive Taunt, since while Taunt is used to set up, Torment is used to block attackers (primarily Choice users, but with a bit of trickery you can screw over just about anything).
once they know you have torment its much easier to predict. So you could only use it once before the get out their counter.
No, he said you could torment plus sub to baton pass or focus punch. Protect doesn't allow you to do either of those.
In the case of FP it doesn't matter if they break the sub as you succeed in FPing.
Same with BP. If you stat up on the switch you would still be able to get out of there. I think you are just misunderstanding him.
:DTheMaskedNitpicker said:
Torment is kind of cool, and it should see more use, but Choice Sweepers quite often switch out within a turn, anyway, unless they're Scarfchomp (in which case, why wouldn't you get your Gyara to Ice Fang > Torment), due to resistant pokes/walls switching in. I could see how it could be useful, but instead of having your Gyarados Torment the opponent's Tbolt, why wouldn't you just switch to Dugtrio... ? It would be cool on Pokes with few weaknesses, but things like Spiritomb can't handle any non-resisted choice hits, anyway.
I don't think it's really fair to compare two attacks with evident differences. For one thing:
Torment
Prevents the subsequent use of similar moves, whether Attacking or Supporting
Taunt
Prevents from using any Supporting moves, restricting the opposition to attacking moves.
That being established, I don't think it's quite proper to say one of these differing moves is better than the other. If you needed Torment to counter one Pokemon in particular, then it would be an ideal choice.
Taunt on the other hand, would be better suited to Pokemon who would not mind being battered by attacks, and could not afford to be hit with bothersome status.
In the situation of our example Dusknoir, he would be better off with Taunt. Not only would this keep your opponent boosting stats and such, they would be forced to attempt breaking his substantial defenses. He would not be well-suited for Torment as his atrocious base speed (45) prevents it from reaching it's full potential.
So please, might I suggest we stay away from "Taunt is better", and try and delve more into what Pokemon could make something out of this attack?
Torment
Prevents the subsequent use of similar moves, whether Attacking or Supporting
Taunt
Prevents from using any Supporting moves, restricting the opposition to attacking moves.
That being established, I don't think it's quite proper to say one of these differing moves is better than the other. If you needed Torment to counter one Pokemon in particular, then it would be an ideal choice.
Taunt on the other hand, would be better suited to Pokemon who would not mind being battered by attacks, and could not afford to be hit with bothersome status.
In the situation of our example Dusknoir, he would be better off with Taunt. Not only would this keep your opponent boosting stats and such, they would be forced to attempt breaking his substantial defenses. He would not be well-suited for Torment as his atrocious base speed (45) prevents it from reaching it's full potential.
So please, might I suggest we stay away from "Taunt is better", and try and delve more into what Pokemon could make something out of this attack?
I use Torment on my Toxistall Umbreon. Been using it since 386, but I've only ever really had it be effective on Umbreon since he doesn't have very many moves to use anyways. Like someone said earlier, it works best on bulky things and Pokemon without many weaknesses. You have to be able to take hits to use Torment.
any thing have
Encore+Torment+Taunt? Any 2 of these can fuck over any defensive thing
Taunt+Encore
Torment+Taunt
Torment+Encore
Encore+Torment+Taunt? Any 2 of these can fuck over any defensive thing
Taunt+Encore
Torment+Taunt
Torment+Encore