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NOC Tracker Jailer Follower - Game Thread - Its Over!
- Thread starter AngryPidgeon
- Start date
I tried to bait Neon to kill tonight by saying that I would die, it really doesnt seem like a play that Neon would do unless Pebble told him beforehand
I think not killing doesn't really make sense for either slot to do lol
Hello! Mildly surprised but I saw multiple Neon pings in the thread while observing and told AP he could sub me in if needed, I guess the situation was deemed that dire from a Neon activity perspective.
As an observer, I was roughly 100% certain that Celever was mafia from reading the thread (admittedly not closely). I just have a very difficult-to-impossible time believing that town!Celever would still be alive this late into a NOC under any circumstances. Of course as an observer I was down to turbo him, now that I'm actually playing I am very mildly second-guessing that instinct but that's still where I'd go first. I want to hear more though from everyone before jumping to any conclusions.
I am not going to re-read 63 pages (sorry) but my understanding of the basic situation is this:
- Peum and Celever seem to be hard buddying / pocketing each other.
- It is currently MYLO and apparently mafia can idle the kill? I thought there were rules against that for stalemate reasons but maybe Celever or someone can correct me, I'm not the NOC expert.
- Neon did approximately shit all this game.
First question - do we even need to vote? I do not know the rules around that in NOCs either, but it seems to me like if the mafia is allowed to idle then we should be allowed to no vote and force them to remove someone (ideally me xD).
Second question - why are Celever and Peum buddying so hard? Why are you two so sure that each other is town? Given one of you was my hardest scum read (Celever), can you two please sell me on why the other is town, from a very cursory overview of the vote counts it seems like you both have consistently made terrible votes all game (last phase excepted, though everybody voted Pebble so that is NAI as far as I'm concerned).
Third and most important question - you both seem to be accusing Jalmont at the outset of this day. As an observer, I read Jalmont as very pure town, way more town than either of you by a mile. I'm not excluding the possibility of voting anyone, but I need way more of a detailed case on why each of you think that, and I think it is unlikely that I will arrive at a Jalmont vote quite frankly. I think it is way more likely that one of you (probably Peum) is just being hard pocketed and pushed towards the easiest mis-vote.
Finally, a few observations before I do a detailed analysis of the historical votecounts:
- The night kills seemed to be fairly solid while I was observing, i.e. roughly who I thought was very likely town each night. Unfortunately all three of you remaining are competent so it's not surprising that any of you could have been leading mafia throughout the game and arriving at these night kills, but I would like to go back and focus on whether any of you specifically town read or otherwise indicated that YOU believed those players to be town prior to them being killed.
- All of you were consistently voting out town throughout the game SMH. I'll dive into this in more detail and maybe it's not as bad as it looks on the surface, but I really need to figure out why two of you were somehow town and still voted this badly.
- Can people please post less rapid-fire and slightly longer posts? It makes it very difficult to navigate when the thread is being spammed with largely meaningless content / meaningful content split into ten separate posts and jumbled together with other minor posts from other players.
As mentioned, I think the next step for me is to analyze the historical vote counts, so I'll work on that. I would appreciate all of you reading the above and providing thoughts.
As an observer, I was roughly 100% certain that Celever was mafia from reading the thread (admittedly not closely). I just have a very difficult-to-impossible time believing that town!Celever would still be alive this late into a NOC under any circumstances. Of course as an observer I was down to turbo him, now that I'm actually playing I am very mildly second-guessing that instinct but that's still where I'd go first. I want to hear more though from everyone before jumping to any conclusions.
I am not going to re-read 63 pages (sorry) but my understanding of the basic situation is this:
- Peum and Celever seem to be hard buddying / pocketing each other.
- It is currently MYLO and apparently mafia can idle the kill? I thought there were rules against that for stalemate reasons but maybe Celever or someone can correct me, I'm not the NOC expert.
- Neon did approximately shit all this game.
First question - do we even need to vote? I do not know the rules around that in NOCs either, but it seems to me like if the mafia is allowed to idle then we should be allowed to no vote and force them to remove someone (ideally me xD).
Second question - why are Celever and Peum buddying so hard? Why are you two so sure that each other is town? Given one of you was my hardest scum read (Celever), can you two please sell me on why the other is town, from a very cursory overview of the vote counts it seems like you both have consistently made terrible votes all game (last phase excepted, though everybody voted Pebble so that is NAI as far as I'm concerned).
Third and most important question - you both seem to be accusing Jalmont at the outset of this day. As an observer, I read Jalmont as very pure town, way more town than either of you by a mile. I'm not excluding the possibility of voting anyone, but I need way more of a detailed case on why each of you think that, and I think it is unlikely that I will arrive at a Jalmont vote quite frankly. I think it is way more likely that one of you (probably Peum) is just being hard pocketed and pushed towards the easiest mis-vote.
Finally, a few observations before I do a detailed analysis of the historical votecounts:
- The night kills seemed to be fairly solid while I was observing, i.e. roughly who I thought was very likely town each night. Unfortunately all three of you remaining are competent so it's not surprising that any of you could have been leading mafia throughout the game and arriving at these night kills, but I would like to go back and focus on whether any of you specifically town read or otherwise indicated that YOU believed those players to be town prior to them being killed.
- All of you were consistently voting out town throughout the game SMH. I'll dive into this in more detail and maybe it's not as bad as it looks on the surface, but I really need to figure out why two of you were somehow town and still voted this badly.
- Can people please post less rapid-fire and slightly longer posts? It makes it very difficult to navigate when the thread is being spammed with largely meaningless content / meaningful content split into ten separate posts and jumbled together with other minor posts from other players.
As mentioned, I think the next step for me is to analyze the historical vote counts, so I'll work on that. I would appreciate all of you reading the above and providing thoughts.
we haven't acc made rules on this bc there's never been a full stalemate but we probably should set a default rule for it lol
remind me after the game ends
if there were a default rule it'd probably be "mafia can idle the kill but if the game stalemates for 2 cycles mafia lose" or something but yk
I havent read the whole text yet but idling would only make me or Celever die which considering we're never voting eachother would really make no sense
and you'd be surprised, I die early sometimes but if I don't I often endgame as town lol
bc god reads yesterday
now we're essentially conftown bc we're responsible for voting out Pebble yesterday
I fully believe that Peum would have voted out town yesterday if he were scum with Pebble. If I were scum with Pebble I sure would've done. Neon wasn't here so we could at worst tie the vote and probably (bc jalmont would be town in this situation) win it bc jalmont has just backed the leading wagon for no reason multiple times this game so that it doesn't tie and no vote
liveposting makes other slots way more reasonable
in this situation yeah I prob could've wallposted the response but that's more effort and it doesn't achieve anything when liveposting in the rest of the game is legitimately better play
there's a reason mafia champs has to cap posts per player per day. the top players understand that liveposting >>>> lol
readable*
from memory
Evie:
- I don't remember any of us particularly townreading her over others. I think everyone largely went "yeah sure townlean" on her though
genisu:
- I in particular townread him when others scumread him before the claim, but the claim kinda makes that all moot
Miyami:
- in contrast, Peum and Jal were both quite happy to just townread her while I was the person to neither townread nor push her (bc it wouldn't have gone anywhere if I did try to push her anyway, and I didn't actually scumread her I just kept building scum worlds including her to eval where others stopped)
DBD:
- I mean obviously I scumread him all game where the other two townread him
what would explain the no kill is if Sam is scum unfortunately lmao
given that entrance
I'll be so mad if he's town if this makes us vote for him instead of jal
but it makes full sense that Sam would come in, no kill, try to pocket jal on a bonus no vote day, and then set up for killing either me or Peum tonight to get jalmont to vote with the other one of us in F3
it also looks less scummy to sub into the game and kinda target me and Peum together rather than chainsaw just one of us but yk
given that entrance
I'll be so mad if he's town if this makes us vote for him instead of jal
but it makes full sense that Sam would come in, no kill, try to pocket jal on a bonus no vote day, and then set up for killing either me or Peum tonight to get jalmont to vote with the other one of us in F3
it also looks less scummy to sub into the game and kinda target me and Peum together rather than chainsaw just one of us but yk
I am a bit busy with RBTT draft and having a tour game in 30 minutes but after that I'll be more active LOLwhere did everyone go
if you're actively involved in the draft, draft me I'm good at dubs trust x3
oh Im not active im watching LOL
fair lmao I'm tabbing in occasionally to it!
I don't really expect to be drafted so I'm not following closely lol
Vote count / night kill analysis post. I will try to color-code things accurately to make it more readable and for my own sanity, but I am mildly color blind and also haven't been playing so may make a mistake in the color coding / recalling what alignment someone was. If you think I made a mistake in my analysis based on mis-reading something objective (such as what alignment someone flipped), please call it out.
Day 1:
Day 1 mafia vote is pretty rare on Smogon.com, so good job to...all of the dead villagers who made it happen. In my eyes this would hard clear all three who voted des. The better / more insightful question to ask is this - who reasonably could have prevented this vote from happening who didn't?
Jalmont: Celever mentioned he is mostly just pushing majority wagons over the top / preventing ties. I do think that switching to one of the other wagons would have looked really bad if he knew des was likely getting flipped at some point anyway. But why not just switch onto the des wagon at that point? I think this is a plausible but unlikely play for maf!Jalmont.
Celever: Ugh alright gotta go look up where Celever voted for pulsar and how much room he gave himself to pivot...and the answer is he had some wiggle room, he kinda just jumped on an AFK inactive wagon after defending des earlier in the day, if I'm reading it right? And also got into a fight with DBD and ended up DBD's hardest scumread. Would maf!Celever feel that he had already defended des too much, and thus felt it was too risky to shift votes in such an obvious way? Again this is plausible, I would argue more likely than the case that Jalmont would vote this way as mafia.
Peum: Also defended des with Celever it seems like? Straight up didn't vote, I wonder if maf!Peum was ever just waiting to see if he could push a different wagon. I actually think this is arguably the most likely of the three options here.
tl;dr - all of you plausibly could've played Day 1 this way as mafia, though I think that Celever and Peum come out looking worse than Jalmont.
Night kill: Evie. This was someone on the des wagon, so pretty obvious and it could've been made by any of you. I will say that Evie said they liked Celever's play (how?) so you could argue the kill looks better for Celever than either of the other two. I only read like two Evie posts though, again I'm not doing a full re-read just trying to hit the highlights.
Day 2:
Re-reading this day, it is very interesting that Celever and Peum ended up buddying each other later. But I'll get there when I get there.
I will note that Celever directly tinfoiled (in post 748) Phoopes being mafia which directly led to a later misvote of the town jailkeeper. So that's objectively bad.
Of the other two votes, Jalmont posted decent reasoning in post 701 and Peum kinda wagoned it over the top. Jalmont drove the vote more here, and ShyP jumped on after one other person had voted. I'd say that looks a bit worse for Jalmont than Peum all else being equal.
Night 2 Kill: Genisu. I am gathering that he was a claimed PR from what Celever posted? Unfortunately that does make this moderately NAI for any of you, it was just a very obvious shot if there was a free PR kill. Does Jailkeeper not block kills though in this game? Why did Phoopes not save Genisu if he was a claimed PR? Maybe these are questions for postgame but I assume someone asked and this was discussed already.
Day 3:
Celever being on Phoopes was kind of setting up for the misvote the next day. Re-reading where the case was here...Miyami~~~ post 1091 saying Celever reads as mafia is interesting because I think they die soon at night right? Anyway, on to the case...it seems like his concern was that DBD had wagoned onto Pulsar the day before, and that he thought DBD was scummy? Per 1061. 1016 and 1017 are very curious, it seems like Celever and Peum went from voting each other to voting as a block that quickly? That doesn't quite track with what Celever had said about them townreading each other based on the prior day's reads.
Overall, the problem with Celever this day is that he's more than good enough to explain all of his actions. Everything individually is justifiable. It's just that the end result (him ending up off-wagon for a misvote AND setting things up to vote the jailkeeper the next day) is so godawful. HOWEVER...it does somewhat explain why town!Celever would be alive, because why kill someone pushing the town jailkeeper for you. So in a weird way it is a point both for and against Celever, but maybe even a slight pro overall for his towniness.
Jalmont and Peum pushing Pulsar over the top was the worst case scenario for town because it then led to the Phoopes wagon gaining steam the next day. tl;dr all three of you pretty much made the worst possible vote / argument combination for town this day. I think Peum's play is the most justifiable, though.
Night 3 kill: Miyami~~. They voted des and were scumreading Celever, I didn't see anything else of much note about this kill.
Day 4:
Celever pushed this vote, plain and simple. Peum pushed it over the edge - if he had flipped, Phoopes would've lived. I would argue that Neon 100% should've been policy'd here based on his miserable activity, but maybe that would've just led to Celever pushing phoopes out the next day and causing a loss. Jalmont voted for Neon but the vote was already effectively decided at that stage, and he was waffling a lot / seemingly just trying to sheep DBD.
Being honest, this is the toughest day for me to read. I'm going to try to envision this day from each of your perspective's and see which one makes the most sense to me:
- maf!Celever the plan is clear - push out the town jailkeeper that you were setting up since the prior day, and push town to a LYLO. This is a very obvious level-1 strategy but given you sort of committed to it the prior day it is very believable that you'd plead mea culpa afterwards. Town!Celever this is also believable though, if you got it in your head that we were living in a certain world and got even more certain once the pulsar misvote happened.
- maf!Peum would be very willing to go along with a phoopes vote, and would definitely prefer phoopes dying to Neon, given the latter's inactivity. Peum was also the deciding vote. Town!Peum I could buy doing this as well though.
- maf!Jalmont...kind of makes sense. He seems to be skirting responsibility for any outcome and voted after things were decided onto the wagon that would make him seem less bad (again, assuming he is mafia and knows both are town but one is JK and the other is just some inactive). Town!Jalmont I feel like would have played this a little more proactively? This one is not a great look for Jalmont on a closer inspection tbqh.
One other comment: Peum was pushing ShyPebble this day as well, from the looks of an earlier vote count. As an observer I read this as false distancing between the two, but it also tells a consistent story with his behavior Day 5 if he is town. I think after a more thorough re-reading I am more willing to accept that this latter world is the one we are living in.
Night 4 kill: DBD. Again, a good kill. I think it would make the most sense from Celever's perspective, because while DBD was scumreading and arguing with Celever the whole time, they hadn't been as vitriolic recently (at least in terms of voting each other) so it would draw less attention to him. Unfortunately, I think that DBD is the kill regardless of which of you three is mafia, though, so to some extent it is NAI for any of you.
Day 5:
I read this day moderately closely, so don't need to go into it in as much detail. I do have a few notes I want to touch on though:
- Peum straight up voting ShyP is utter insanity if town, it was pretty much hard forcing a thunderdome scenario between the two and drawing all of the heat off of the other players. As mafia, it makes sense as a distancing tactic because you know one of you will win the thunderdome and then look squeaky clean the next day.
- I am moderately surprised that Celever didn't note that the vote HAD to be between Peum and ShyP once Peum votes ShyP. There is no other possible vote logically, the two must be either T/S or S/S because there was no hammer. Obviously Celever did end up deciding to go with Peum. Considering why he would do this as either alignment - as town, it makes perfect sense to go with your stronger townread. As mafia, it...also makes sense, because your goal is just to pocket Peum and win the game the next day.
- Jalmont ended up coming in and hammering once it became clear that all of the momentum was for ShyP to be the vote. On my initial reading I was pretty sure this was just because he was town, but on a re-read and in the context of the rest of the game, it's not as surefire.
No night kill last night could've been done by any of you, but I think it makes the most sense from Celever or Peum's perspective. After all, why kill the person hard buddying you, when you can plausibly avoid making the obvious kill?
Overall, my thoughts after a full re-read of the most salient points of the game is this:
- Celever surviving isn't as terrible for him as I thought it was as an observer. It's still not great (and a lot of the NKs seem designed to take heat off of Celever - Miyami, DBD, etc.), but it is less damning than I'd initially thought.
- Peum looks a bit cleaner than I had thought. I thought there was a decent chance he was pocketing Celever, but I am moving off of that world being particularly likely. It is definitely still possible, but if that's where we are at then I think we just lose.
- Jalmont looks slightly worse than I'd initially thought, as he was a lot more waffle-y throughout the game than it had seemed. I still liked his Day 5 analysis posts though, and want to see what his thoughts are (particularly on the Cel + Peum buddying).
I am going to catch up on the posts made more recently now.
Day 1:
AngryPidgeon said:
AngryPidgeon said:
Day 1 mafia vote is pretty rare on Smogon.com, so good job to...all of the dead villagers who made it happen. In my eyes this would hard clear all three who voted des. The better / more insightful question to ask is this - who reasonably could have prevented this vote from happening who didn't?
Jalmont: Celever mentioned he is mostly just pushing majority wagons over the top / preventing ties. I do think that switching to one of the other wagons would have looked really bad if he knew des was likely getting flipped at some point anyway. But why not just switch onto the des wagon at that point? I think this is a plausible but unlikely play for maf!Jalmont.
Celever: Ugh alright gotta go look up where Celever voted for pulsar and how much room he gave himself to pivot...and the answer is he had some wiggle room, he kinda just jumped on an AFK inactive wagon after defending des earlier in the day, if I'm reading it right? And also got into a fight with DBD and ended up DBD's hardest scumread. Would maf!Celever feel that he had already defended des too much, and thus felt it was too risky to shift votes in such an obvious way? Again this is plausible, I would argue more likely than the case that Jalmont would vote this way as mafia.
Peum: Also defended des with Celever it seems like? Straight up didn't vote, I wonder if maf!Peum was ever just waiting to see if he could push a different wagon. I actually think this is arguably the most likely of the three options here.
tl;dr - all of you plausibly could've played Day 1 this way as mafia, though I think that Celever and Peum come out looking worse than Jalmont.
Night kill: Evie. This was someone on the des wagon, so pretty obvious and it could've been made by any of you. I will say that Evie said they liked Celever's play (how?) so you could argue the kill looks better for Celever than either of the other two. I only read like two Evie posts though, again I'm not doing a full re-read just trying to hit the highlights.
Day 2:
Ugh. Just ugh. Jalmont and Peum wagoned Joey with a known mafia member. Celever made a nonsense vote - onto Peum though, which is interesting - re-reading now...Celever seemed to be pushing pulsar and Peum this day? Also Celever was apparently jailkept, so that does increase the mathematical odds that he is town by literally double if I'm understanding the math correctly?AngryPidgeon said:
Re-reading this day, it is very interesting that Celever and Peum ended up buddying each other later. But I'll get there when I get there.
I will note that Celever directly tinfoiled (in post 748) Phoopes being mafia which directly led to a later misvote of the town jailkeeper. So that's objectively bad.
Of the other two votes, Jalmont posted decent reasoning in post 701 and Peum kinda wagoned it over the top. Jalmont drove the vote more here, and ShyP jumped on after one other person had voted. I'd say that looks a bit worse for Jalmont than Peum all else being equal.
Night 2 Kill: Genisu. I am gathering that he was a claimed PR from what Celever posted? Unfortunately that does make this moderately NAI for any of you, it was just a very obvious shot if there was a free PR kill. Does Jailkeeper not block kills though in this game? Why did Phoopes not save Genisu if he was a claimed PR? Maybe these are questions for postgame but I assume someone asked and this was discussed already.
Day 3:
The last post of the day is Jalmont saying 'I fully expect to be wrong here' and then him expressing frustration, which is interesting. I feel like this is a little more performative than maf!Jalmont would typically be, though the statement is weird no matter how you slice it.AngryPidgeon said:
Celever being on Phoopes was kind of setting up for the misvote the next day. Re-reading where the case was here...Miyami~~~ post 1091 saying Celever reads as mafia is interesting because I think they die soon at night right? Anyway, on to the case...it seems like his concern was that DBD had wagoned onto Pulsar the day before, and that he thought DBD was scummy? Per 1061. 1016 and 1017 are very curious, it seems like Celever and Peum went from voting each other to voting as a block that quickly? That doesn't quite track with what Celever had said about them townreading each other based on the prior day's reads.
Overall, the problem with Celever this day is that he's more than good enough to explain all of his actions. Everything individually is justifiable. It's just that the end result (him ending up off-wagon for a misvote AND setting things up to vote the jailkeeper the next day) is so godawful. HOWEVER...it does somewhat explain why town!Celever would be alive, because why kill someone pushing the town jailkeeper for you. So in a weird way it is a point both for and against Celever, but maybe even a slight pro overall for his towniness.
Jalmont and Peum pushing Pulsar over the top was the worst case scenario for town because it then led to the Phoopes wagon gaining steam the next day. tl;dr all three of you pretty much made the worst possible vote / argument combination for town this day. I think Peum's play is the most justifiable, though.
Night 3 kill: Miyami~~. They voted des and were scumreading Celever, I didn't see anything else of much note about this kill.
Day 4:
The order of the votes is what I'm most interested in here.AngryPidgeon said:
Celever pushed this vote, plain and simple. Peum pushed it over the edge - if he had flipped, Phoopes would've lived. I would argue that Neon 100% should've been policy'd here based on his miserable activity, but maybe that would've just led to Celever pushing phoopes out the next day and causing a loss. Jalmont voted for Neon but the vote was already effectively decided at that stage, and he was waffling a lot / seemingly just trying to sheep DBD.
Being honest, this is the toughest day for me to read. I'm going to try to envision this day from each of your perspective's and see which one makes the most sense to me:
- maf!Celever the plan is clear - push out the town jailkeeper that you were setting up since the prior day, and push town to a LYLO. This is a very obvious level-1 strategy but given you sort of committed to it the prior day it is very believable that you'd plead mea culpa afterwards. Town!Celever this is also believable though, if you got it in your head that we were living in a certain world and got even more certain once the pulsar misvote happened.
- maf!Peum would be very willing to go along with a phoopes vote, and would definitely prefer phoopes dying to Neon, given the latter's inactivity. Peum was also the deciding vote. Town!Peum I could buy doing this as well though.
- maf!Jalmont...kind of makes sense. He seems to be skirting responsibility for any outcome and voted after things were decided onto the wagon that would make him seem less bad (again, assuming he is mafia and knows both are town but one is JK and the other is just some inactive). Town!Jalmont I feel like would have played this a little more proactively? This one is not a great look for Jalmont on a closer inspection tbqh.
One other comment: Peum was pushing ShyPebble this day as well, from the looks of an earlier vote count. As an observer I read this as false distancing between the two, but it also tells a consistent story with his behavior Day 5 if he is town. I think after a more thorough re-reading I am more willing to accept that this latter world is the one we are living in.
Night 4 kill: DBD. Again, a good kill. I think it would make the most sense from Celever's perspective, because while DBD was scumreading and arguing with Celever the whole time, they hadn't been as vitriolic recently (at least in terms of voting each other) so it would draw less attention to him. Unfortunately, I think that DBD is the kill regardless of which of you three is mafia, though, so to some extent it is NAI for any of you.
Day 5:
I read this day moderately closely, so don't need to go into it in as much detail. I do have a few notes I want to touch on though:
- Peum straight up voting ShyP is utter insanity if town, it was pretty much hard forcing a thunderdome scenario between the two and drawing all of the heat off of the other players. As mafia, it makes sense as a distancing tactic because you know one of you will win the thunderdome and then look squeaky clean the next day.
- I am moderately surprised that Celever didn't note that the vote HAD to be between Peum and ShyP once Peum votes ShyP. There is no other possible vote logically, the two must be either T/S or S/S because there was no hammer. Obviously Celever did end up deciding to go with Peum. Considering why he would do this as either alignment - as town, it makes perfect sense to go with your stronger townread. As mafia, it...also makes sense, because your goal is just to pocket Peum and win the game the next day.
- Jalmont ended up coming in and hammering once it became clear that all of the momentum was for ShyP to be the vote. On my initial reading I was pretty sure this was just because he was town, but on a re-read and in the context of the rest of the game, it's not as surefire.
No night kill last night could've been done by any of you, but I think it makes the most sense from Celever or Peum's perspective. After all, why kill the person hard buddying you, when you can plausibly avoid making the obvious kill?
Overall, my thoughts after a full re-read of the most salient points of the game is this:
- Celever surviving isn't as terrible for him as I thought it was as an observer. It's still not great (and a lot of the NKs seem designed to take heat off of Celever - Miyami, DBD, etc.), but it is less damning than I'd initially thought.
- Peum looks a bit cleaner than I had thought. I thought there was a decent chance he was pocketing Celever, but I am moving off of that world being particularly likely. It is definitely still possible, but if that's where we are at then I think we just lose.
- Jalmont looks slightly worse than I'd initially thought, as he was a lot more waffle-y throughout the game than it had seemed. I still liked his Day 5 analysis posts though, and want to see what his thoughts are (particularly on the Cel + Peum buddying).
I am going to catch up on the posts made more recently now.
just posting this segment visibly (use erase button not black, we use dark mode x3)
You leading with this is kinda weird to me if you're town, help me out here - it kinda reads to me like you're just trying to reinforce a pocket and get things done with.
I am more open after reading the full game to possibly accept that you could be town, but if you somehow are then you will need to convince me to vote with you if you want to win this game.
Would be interested to see this. Also want to see Celever ISO Jalmont, you, and provide more thoughts on my most recent reads post.