Type Reflectors

Angry2 your team does get vaporized by freeze dry and lacks some good stops to normal espeed spam and darkspam. Also water/steel types wall your whole team... Curse water/steel quagsire 6-0s
I respect and understand what you mean, but now time to defend my team :p

First to the Freeze dry:- Who uses it? Like who is viable and actually uses it
Second:- To Quagsire
Well a lot of possible changes to the team can be made to counter water/steel types, and for now I will use your Quagsire example [No steel STAB except Iron tail so I will still use earthquake] and most of my team could get a change or 2 anyway
  • Mew can choose to run WoW instead of psychic STAB/ defog [which can be given to latios], in which case the chip damage from WoW combined with damage from something like Dragalge to kill it faster
  • Mew can choose to run Taunt instead of psychic STAB/ defog, in which case it will have to resort to either EQ or Scald, Scald is resisted and 0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery is not good enough, so it will probs switch out
  • Dragalge can run Life Orb to insure the OHKO on Quagsire with focus blast
  • Dragalge can run Thunderbolt instead to not rely on focus miss but instead 2HKO, and fair enough Dragalge will outspeed so it will not get killed as even +1 EQ only 2hko
  • Dragonite can run roost, it doesn't hardwall it like latias but it still walls it nicely
  • Dragonite can overgo ESpeed and choose EQ for better Coverage
  • Gliscor can choose to overgo some EVs and invest it in ATK to insure the 2HKO and fair enough it walls Quagsire nicely
  • Latias hardwalls quagsire and Latias can run thunderbolt to 2HKO
  • Latias can be changed to Latios, Losing Healing wish support but still hardwalling and have more offensive presence
  • Latias can choose to run roost, to help hardwalling better in which case he will just switch out

So yeah a lot of changes can be done, but for the current version it can still deal with Quagsire
Latias Hardwalls it
Dragalge 2HKOes it [Small Chance to OHKO it, but with LO it insures the OHKO]
And doing any of the changes above will add more ways of dealing with Quagsire so yea, It ain't really 6-0'd, more like 0-1'd :p
 
I made some battles with the team, and here are some replays, and actually I found a bug in the code [Sorry for double Posting]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1120 Water V Fire
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1121 Water V Dark
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1122 Water V Ground <--- First time I realized the bug
While doing more battles I realized a problem in the code, When a pokemon M-Evolves, it loses its secondary typing, going into Mono-Primary Typing [Water if Slowbro for example] as demonstrated here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1123

Edit1: I know what is the problem with the bug now
When a mega evolves, It's secondary typing changes just like normal, the problem is EVEN if it is in the first slot (AKA the reflector) it's secondary typing still changes hence Slowbro-Mega changed from Water/Psychic to Water/Water so it turned into pure water, Same thing will happen except with megas that change type like charizard-X

Edit2: Found yet another bug, When a pokemon changes form, Its typing returns to how it was (I think) as demonstrated here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectorsrandombattle-1159 When aegislash changed form to blade, it lost its water typing, hence Hydreigon's fire blast was SE
 
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AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
I made some battles with the team, and here are some replays, and actually I found a bug in the code [Sorry for double Posting]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1120 Water V Fire
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1121 Water V Dark
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1122 Water V Ground <--- First time I realized the bug
While doing more battles I realized a problem in the code, When a pokemon M-Evolves, it loses its secondary typing, going into Mono-Primary Typing [Water if Slowbro for example] as demonstrated here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1123

Edit1: I know what is the problem with the bug now
When a mega evolves, It's secondary typing changes just like normal, the problem is EVEN if it is in the first slot (AKA the reflector) it's secondary typing still changes hence Slowbro-Mega changed from Water/Psychic to Water/Water so it turned into pure water, Same thing will happen except with megas that change type like charizard-X

Edit2: Found yet another bug, When a pokemon changes form, Its typing returns to how it was (I think) as demonstrated here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectorsrandombattle-1159 When aegislash changed form to blade, it lost its water typing, hence Hydreigon's fire blast was SE
Addressing Edit2: correct, that would make sense. The code only activates on switch in and Mega Evolution. I could write something for Aegislash, though, and if you see other Pokemon like that, let me know. As of right now, since Aegislash isn't my biggest concern, I'll focus on the other issue.

Yay for being an idiot! I fixed the very stupid bug, just need to wait for implementation on the server.
 

nv

The Lost Age
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Ok so while I didn't grab too many decent replays, I wanted to share something specifically I found for Grass Reflector teams. In my previous post, I shared a Grass Reflector balance team, but after playtesting, I feel like Grass' biggest niche is as an offensive type as balance it going to be hard pressed to power through Steel- and Flying-type Reflector teams that I was up against (thanks runbabyrun for that). First off, I have a highly unconventional Pokemon that I actually felt put in some work.



Sudowoodo @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wood Hammer
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock

While this may seem like I am trying to show off a gimmick, it is actually the only Rock-type that benefits from gaining a Grass typing (screw Cradily imo). It now gains access to STAB Wood Hammer and is a nice anti-lead and suicide lead coupled into one with Sturdy + Custap Berry. While I haven't playtested much, I agree that this is a semi-nice lead for Grass Reflector teams. Here's a replay showcasing its lead / anti-lead qualities: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1110

Another Pokemon from that replay I wanted to talk about is...



Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot

OR

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Taunt / Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot

Thundurus is a really awesome asset for Grass Reflector teams as it can provide stallbreaking capabilities, speed control, or a win condition all the while gaining STAB Grass Knot as well as being able to nail Flying-types super effectively.

Now for a couple more "random" sets...

OR

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch / Thunder Punch
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch

Mega Medicham, thanks to its primary Fighting typing, is a big force thanks to it gaining better coverage and a better "defensive" typing. Fighting/Ice allows Medicham-Mega to take on the plethora of Dragon- and Flying-types while still being able to nail Steel Reflector teams that are doomed to be popular. Fighting/Electric is a nice alternative as it gives Medicham a Flying neutrality, keeps its SR resistance, and keeps similar coverage by losing out on Dragon-types, but being able to hit bulky Water-types.



Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast

Everyone always talks about Electric/Dark Thundurus-T and so here it is. It is a really nice win condition with a really good ability and excellent neutral coverage, making it a nice addition to any Dark Reflector team. Honestly I have to say this is the most fun I have had with an OM I have been with "since the initial stages" and I am glad that there is love for it as well.
 
Addressing Edit2: correct, that would make sense. The code only activates on switch in and Mega Evolution. I could write something for Aegislash, though, and if you see other Pokemon like that, let me know. As of right now, since Aegislash isn't my biggest concern, I'll focus on the other issue.

Yay for being an idiot! I fixed the very stupid bug, just need to wait for implementation on the server.
There ain't much pokemon which change formes in battle, but I guess meloetta, and there is also castform, Cherrim, Darmanitan None of these pokemons are tested but I guess they will work just like Aegislash And Aegislash is only available in randbats so do not care about it, only thing that cares is the legal ones I listed above
 
Yay for playability! There were a few bugs but I think they've been addressed. I managed to pick up a lot of games yesterday. I mainly stuck to a Steel team I made (probably the first team I've made for this), but it got boring so I switched to Flying which is actually pretty fun. I tried out an HO Normal team which was able to put in a lot of work against other players.



I am going to have another vote soon asking about Shedinja. I know many people voted to abstain, but I think after realizing how centralizing it is, I think many people have changed their minds. Really only the Bug/Steel Shedinja is broken, as it has only one weakness to Fire and is immune to Sandstorm and Poison. However, even though it can only be used on Steel, Steel is a type that has proven to be exceptional in the metagame, which Shedinja's weakness to Fire being able to be patched easily on teams.

I'll make an announcement about a vote later today, maybe.
 
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So, given that I'm hosting this, I thought I might as well have a go at some theorymonning. I'll start with donor types and which primary types they work best defensively with:
  • Bug: Electric, Steel; Normal, Rock, Water
  • Dark: Ghost, Poison; Fairy, Psychic
  • Dragon: Steel, Water; Fire
  • Electric: N/A
  • Fairy: N/A; Electric, Ghost, Normal, Steel
  • Fighting: N/A; Electric, Psychic, Steel
  • Fire: N/A; Dragon, Grass, Ground, Water
  • Flying: Electric, Steel; Ground, Normal, Water
  • Ghost: Dark, Normal; Fairy
  • Grass: Fire, Steel, Water, Electric, Poison, Rock; Ghost, Ground
  • Ground: Water; Fire, Flying
  • Ice: N/A; Electric, Water
  • Normal: N/A; Ghost
  • Poison: Dark; Normal
  • Psychic: Normal; Dark, Fairy, Fighting, Poison
  • Rock: Bug, Grass; Electric, Fairy, Flying, Poison, Steel, Water
  • Steel: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying; Fighting, Grass, Poison, Water
  • Water: N/A; Dragon, Electric, Ground
So, it looks like Grass teams have the widest choice of desirable ally types.

Some abilities grant immunities of course, and those might find some use on allies.
  • Sap Sipper: Would be popular on Ground, Rock or Water teams. Azumarill would in particular appreciate a Ground team.
  • Storm Drain/Water Absorb: Would be popular on Fire, Ground or Rock teams. Cradily would in particular appreciate a Fire team.
  • Lightning Rod/Motor Drive/Volt Absorb: Would be popular on Flying or Water teams. Seaking and Lanturn would in particular appreciate a Flying team.
  • Levitate: Would be popular on Electric, Fire, Poison, Rock or Steel teams. Sadly due to Species clause I can't have Eelektross, Rotom-Fan, Rotom-Frost, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Mow and Rotom-Wash.
Finally, a short list of Pokémon who most find their secondary type is weak:
  • Leavanny
  • Weavile
  • L@tias
  • Rotom-Heat
  • Togekiss
  • Hawlucha
  • Magcargo
  • Noivern
  • Chandelure
  • Cacturne
  • Exeggutor
  • Shiftry
  • Rhyperior
  • Jynx
  • Sawsbuck
  • Crobat
  • Nidoking
  • Nidoqueen
  • Skorupi
  • Toxicroak
  • Celebi
  • Golem
  • Tyranitar
  • Aggron
  • Crawdaunt
  • Keldeo
  • Poliwrath
  • Sharpedo
  • Slowbro
  • Slowking
  • Starmie
First to the Freeze dry:- Who uses it? Like who is viable and actually uses it
I thought I'd look in to this, and it turns out that only 10 Pokémon even learn Freeze Dry. Of those, Lapras might actually have a niche, as Ice is his secondary typing, so he gets to replace it with something better.
 
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A couple random sets from testing stuff.


Mienshao @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Grass Knot
- U-turn

Mienshao gets a knock off as strong as bisharp's and has a 130 bp fighting stab to back it up. It has an annoying speed tier for balance teams to deal with, and it can get SD and baton bass if coverage isn't your thing. Even has a workable special attack.

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator -> Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Grass Knot
- Scald

Have fun breaking this thing. Time will tell how common flying teams are, but since poison is non-existent this slowbro basically doesn't die. A sleep talk set could be used too. Grass Manaphy is about the only thing that can pressure this out. Speaking of which, manaphy is an amazing win condition, since teams that are half water weak simply can't handle it once faster things are dead.

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)
Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse
- Tri Attack
- Ice Beam
- Trick

Porygon Z really likes getting another STAB, especially when all three of the types listed above do normal damage to rock and steel. The set isn't even that important, since PZ will blow most things up with just its stabs. A double dance set with agility and nasty plot has been effective for me as well, but there are a few niche things that can wall you (as well as other PZ when normal ghost), so I like the third attack.

Thank you for pointing this out, bp scrub
And one last grand meme:
The power of band with the speed of scarf and the coverage of Delcatty


Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Resort

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 379-447 (53.8 - 63.4%)
252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 354-417 (50.2 - 59.2%)
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 529-624 (75.1 - 88.6%)
 
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Just wanted to start some more discussion about Shedinja.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-typereflectors-1237

This battle really shows how much pressure Shedinja puts on opposing teams. During the first few turns, one of the Shedinja dies to hazards. Obviously, this can easily be avoided with great hazard control in Skarmory.

Clefable set up to +4 in both defenses. I was dumb during that part of the battle because I hadn't realized it was Unaware (even after SR damage was shown, I know I'm dumb :[ ) but either way, it would have easily walled my team and probably have won. However, Shedinja put all of those boosts to nothing just by switching in.

I think it was a bit of a mistake to keep Shedinja. An upcoming ban is probably what should be expected in the future.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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Lol. Sheddy might be great against Steel teams, but against types like Fire, its ded meat. As one seems to forget that This is a Monotype themed metagame. So types that beat sheddy walk all over it. Dont forget that HO teams also beat it by keeping up hazards.
 
Lol. Sheddy might be great against Steel teams, but against types like Fire, its ded meat. As one seems to forget that This is a Monotype themed metagame. So types that beat sheddy walk all over it. Dont forget that HO teams also beat it by keeping up hazards.
^

Especially right there. Clefable, for instance, learns flamethrower. If they had run moonlight+flamethrower over wishtect, they would have won.
Also if they had a good set
 
Lol. Sheddy might be great against Steel teams, but against types like Fire, its ded meat. As one seems to forget that This is a Monotype themed metagame. So types that beat sheddy walk all over it. Dont forget that HO teams also beat it by keeping up hazards.
That replay is just an example. It's not just good against Steel - the fact is, anything that can't hit it with anything is forced to switch out, which can ruin momentum. A mon can set up to +6 in all of its stats, but if it can't hit Shedinja, then it can't do anything at all.

Not to mention that Chandelure switches in on any Fire-type attacks, including Will-O-Wisp. There's a game in the OP that shows my opponent with three Pokemon that couldn't do anything to Shedinja.

It's just super centralizing and unhealthy imo.
 

Dr. Phd. BJ

aphasia
is a defending SCL Champion
OMPL Champion
Lol. Sheddy might be great against Steel teams, but against types like Fire, its ded meat. As one seems to forget that This is a Monotype themed metagame. So types that beat sheddy walk all over it. Dont forget that HO teams also beat it by keeping up hazards.
U do realize sheds only weakness is fire. It's not like every type matches up vs it well. If u run any good form of hazard repellent, it is nearly impossible to break. At first I thought it was manageable, but playing against it and using it myself, it is way too good for the meta. There are few ways to beat it. I'm not saying it is impossible to break, but rather significantly hard too. And what happens if u are in with a poke to hit it super effectively? They switch out (barring magnet pull). It forces u to play and build differently. It should get ban, but hey, I won't be mad with it not getting banned and being able to abuse it.
 
So, Primary (the important one) type compilation, OU-UU mons only:
Bug:
OU/Bl:

UU:


Dark:
OU/Bl:

UU:


Dragon:
OU/BL:

UU:


Electric
OU/Bl:

UU:


Fairy:
OU/BL:

UU:


Fighting:
OU/BL:

UU:


Fire:
OU/BL:

UU:


Flying:
OU/BL

Other:


Ghost:
OU/BL

UU:


Grass:
OU/BL

UU:


Ground:
OU/BL:

UU:


Ice:
UU:



Normal:
OU/BL

UU:



Poison
UU:



Psychic
OU/BL:

UU:

Rock
OU/BL:

UU:

Steel
OU/BL:

UU:


Water:
OU/BL:

UU:
 
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I feel like, on the topic of Shedinja, it shouldn't be banned outright, just ban the Bug/Steel typing, but I'm not sure if that's possible with Showdown.

Otherwise, I agree with the majority, Shedinja, especially in conjuction with Chandelure's Flash Fire is a little bit too strong.
 
I feel like, on the topic of Shedinja, it shouldn't be banned outright, just ban the Bug/Steel typing, but I'm not sure if that's possible with Showdown.

Otherwise, I agree with the majority, Shedinja, especially in conjuction with Chandelure's Flash Fire is a little bit too strong.
Thats considered a complex ban, and is generally avoided. In this case, its probably all or nothing.
 
Seeing how a lot of people are posting their teams, I guess I would post mine too
Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled
- Scald
- Psychic

Dragalge @ Splash Plate
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Toxic Spikes

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 216 HP / 64 Atk / 228 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Extreme Speed
- Waterfall

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roost

Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Psyshock
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Healing Wish


Now to go into everyone in details

This little guy is the type reflector and the mega of the team, This pokemon is a really nice Physical tank and the calm mind set allows him to turn into a special tank and a strong pokemon after only 1 boost!
Possible Changes: You can use Manaphy/Keldeo/Starmie/Azumarill if you want to be more offensive, but then you would have no mega, and mega Latios is not really good, You can also use Gyarados-Mega I guess but I choose Slowbro due to physical tank abilities and gyarados is not the best tank

This is from the only non-water type pokemon that learns scald, and fairly enough it is the defogger of the team and conveniently it is a special tank which synergies well with Slowbro
Possible Changes: You can choose to forego Psychic STAB for WoW or Knock Off, You can also change defog with stealth rock and change the rocks on Gliscor with Defog, But personally I like it this way

Another one of the rare pokemons which learn scald and ain't part water, Now Dragalge regains his pre-evolution's typing which he can abuse perfectly, Due to Scald/Sludge Wave Adaptability-Boosted attacks coming from 97 SpA totally invested, It also has great coverage in focus blast, and has one more slot, which toxic spikes filled, shame defog removes it but it prevent magic bouncers from switching on it and abusing it, This pokemon also takes neutral damage from grass, which normally is a problem for water
Possible Changes: You can run Thunderbolt/Shadow ball coverage instead of TSpikes, and you can use Hydro Pump>Scald if you prefer the extra power



Well,Viable Water-Type moves are normally only with water-type pokemons, but I found out that Waterfall is given to Dragonite and obviously that isn't something to overgo, Dragonite can boost easily due to Multiscale, and then Outrage/Waterfall/Extreme Speed the opponent to death, Also it takes grass AND electric hits due to the dragon typing
Possible Changes: You can go defensive and change Dragon Dance to Roost, You can also choose Aqua Jet>Extreme Speed due to more PP and better coverage

Aqua Tail for ages, This pokemon is immune to electric but X4 weak to grass, It trades its ground immunity and rock neutrality to alot of new resistances and actual STAB, This is the rocker of the team, and it is great with the Mew/Slowbro combo as a secondary physical wall incase Slowbro falls down
Possible Changes: Alot, You can literally just change the whole set depending on your purpose, like changing to stallbreaker set, changing rocks to defog, changing the whole pokemon for another pokemon that fits your role, all in all this pokemon is not the most important but it proved to work great


Final addition to my team, it is a secondary SpD Tank in case mew falls, somehow, This pokemon uses the water typing in both offensive and defensive ways, It can take grass and electric hits like dragonite due to same typing, This pokemon also provides healing wish support for its allies incase it gets weakened and/or a main wall (Mew/Slowbro) is near dead, it gives them another chance to compete
Possible Changes: You can go the more defensive way and remove Healing wish for roost, or you could go offensive and go with latios instead or just a different EV Spread, this pokemon helps in dealing with grass/electric but the team already takes these attacks easy so the whole pokemon can be changed

All in All
A water-reflector team which is balanced, It can take hits from the weaknesses of its reflected type (Water) but also it gains all sorts of advantages from water's great typing, Both Offensively and defensively

Hope you guys like the team, and if you notice a fault or something like a threat that I did not see/Have Constructive Criticism, Please tell me so I can improve the team
i love your playstyle, very bulky but can still hit pretty hard. This looks like a very good team
 
Shouldn't the Electrik/Dark Thundurus only take 12.5% from rocks? It looks like rocks take the old typing into account.
That was a problem in which it took the old typing, but it is fixed now

Also 20th Post! First Milestone I guess :p
 
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Okay, so after testing and lots of battles, Shedinja has been banned from Type Reflectors.

Pretty obvious, but simply put, Shedinja on Steel teams is near unbreakable. It only dies to Fire-type attacks, Burn, hazards and Hail (no Shedinja would stay in on a predicted Fire-type attack or burn, Steel has great hazard removal with Skarmory and Hail is a bad weather anyway). Simply put, its single weakness in Fire made it a staple for all Steel-type teams, and if you had nothing to deal with it you basically lost the match.

Not to mention that if a Fire-type does come out, you can just switch out into something like Chandelure or Heatran to take it. It's just too difficult to deal with and thus, has proven to be unhealthy for the metagame.
 

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