Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v1 - Uncharted Territory

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McGrrr

Facetious
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Chien is such a menace, I'm so happy that it's seemingly less common than the other A+ staples. I think Corv Defogs more consistently in Ubers than OU (with Gholdengo being much less spammed), so threats like Sash Dance Chien are just so annoying.
 
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Chien is a such a menace, I'm so happy that it's seemingly less common than the other A+ staples. I think Corv Defogs more consistently in Ubers than OU (with Gholdengo being much less spammed), so threats like Sash Dance Chien are just so annoying.
Haha, yes! I run Sash Chien, and it's a pretty good revenge/sweeper. Come in, set up, and smash everything with Ice Shard. If you think they'll put up a fight, use your coverage. +2 Shard OHKOs (I think always, not sure) Flutter, and is fairly likely to take out 2-3 mons if they don't have Chien or Bundle.
 

McGrrr

Facetious
is a Contributor Alumnus
Haha, yes! I run Sash Chien, and it's a pretty good revenge/sweeper. Come in, set up, and smash everything with Ice Shard. If you think they'll put up a fight, use your coverage. +2 Shard OHKOs (I think always, not sure) Flutter, and is fairly likely to take out 2-3 mons if they don't have Chien or Bundle.
Dragonite is also a non-factor so 1hp Chien's priority has no competition.
 

McGrrr

Facetious
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Encore on Bundle has basically solved my Chien-Pao problems. So many endgames are guaranteed by encoring Sucker/Shard. Encore in general is being slept on because few teams have more than one Pokemon that wants to be in vs Bundle, so encoring e.g. SpDef Corv's Roost gains the upper hand.

Example replay
 
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Nikebeamz

formerly ImDoneThrowing
Encore on Bundle has basically solved my Chien-Pao problems. So many endgames are guaranteed by encoring Sucker/Shard. Encore in general is being slept on because few teams have more than one Pokemon that wants to be in vs Bundle, so encoring e.g. SpDef Corv's Roost gains the upper hand.

Example replay
I have always been a specs bundle fan because of its ability to kill so so many things without hazards but encore sounds like a cool mixup on a boots set
 

LouisIX

is a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
(Arrogant mode on)
Some thoughts after playing 2400+ game in SV ubers

Annihilape is one of the most surprising mon that outperform my expectations in every aspects
Solid spin blocker, very good bulk and broken rage fist
Dont want to say anymore it is just so good lmao

And then it is dragonite the next with unexpectedly good utility and astonishing power of espeed it truely dominates every fast pace team like nothing (band tera espeed do 60 to koraidon!). One of the abuser of hazard stack, just clicking espeed and win is so satisfying

The most disappointing mon is probably flutter mane. It hits hard but it is too fragile to every priority move user in the tier and its output is good but not determining at all, while itself relys on protosyntheis and item so that lacking hazard resistance too, unlike bundle. let alone the speedtie issue.

The meta of SV now is settled towards a BW-like environment in my opinion. Hazard stacking is too good as a strategy. One thing unlike bw is that the magic bouncer in SV is actually not BS. Hatterene is good and sometimes becoming a horrifying tr sweeper itself(which is another surprise to me). however, using hatterene is kind of slowing the pace of the whole team and that is kind of unfit to the current fast pace meta. I believe there will be someone to innovate its full potential in the future.

Another thing that shares in bw and sv is the draco spam imo. The one thing miraidon outclass koraidon (at least now) is the draco meteor literally, outrage is such a bs move to spam lmao. The draco spam is the only reason that makes tera fairy be the major tera type used in most mon in the tier, offensively and defensively. And miraidon hits fairy super hard too, while koraidon has to run iron head or heavy slam, giving up one of its stab to deal with fairy which is a huge flop for koraidon. And miraidon also benefit from hazard stack too.

Third is the dominance of toxic spikes (and toxic). Lacking heal bell and the high difficulty of hazard removal makes toxic spikes the strongest hazard in the tier. Teams without method to deal with it will be shredded down easily. So you either brings a poison type or run boots excessively in the team, which the latter creates weaknesses against choice attacker and the former is risking a slow pace team style (and predictable play style too), also losing to corrosion grimmora kek.

Prehome SV does not have many mons available but the meta does give me much joy and satisfaction on using the least possible ubers to obtain good performance (good performance the fk lol 0 tour played)

Really looking forward to the post home chaos in the coming future, and I think I will stop cooking the prehome meta.

-from a ladder noob you may meet every working day :3
 

McGrrr

Facetious
is a Contributor Alumnus
Annihilape is one of the most surprising mon that outperform my expectations in every aspects
Solid spin blocker, very good bulk and broken rage fist
Agree with the this; bulky Ape is the only ghost that doesn't hate switching in to EQ/Knock. It treats defensive Tusk as setup fodder, so I'm happy that it's rare.

I don't know what you see in Dragonite though. It needs to Tera to do anything, which is very wasteful with so many actually busted mons that could use Tera better.

I presume that anyone disappointed with Flutter is using the wrong item. Life Orb recoil sacrifices Flutter's surprisingly useful defensive utility; it survives anything from Specs Bundle and tanks Electro Drift (63%) and defensive Tusk's EQ (81%) most of the time (defensive Tread's EQ 100%).

Therefore, Specs and Expert Belt are superior (and 4 attack coverage is implicitly better than Calm Mind). If you run the damage calcs, EB does almost everything that LO does anyway, while still allowing flexibility vs e.g. Clod/Corv cores.
 
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OreoSpeedruns

Embrace the wonders within.
is a Tiering Contributor
Purely luck-based mechanics shouldn't be allowed in this tier.
Wholeheartedly agree. I’ve never had trouble with Moody myself, but the only reason that’s the case is because I got absurdly lucky with the Moody stat changes.

This prolly has already been said before, but just like OHKO and evasion moves, all Moody does is turn games into stupid luck, and just like OHKO and evasion moves, that to me is uncompetitive and needs to go.
 

OreoSpeedruns

Embrace the wonders within.
is a Tiering Contributor
So what are we all thinking about Walking Wake and Iron Leaves?


Personally I think Leaves is pretty bad, Grass/Psychic is a terrible typing and it only really has one high power STAB in Psyblade. Swords Dance is interesting and it does have decent moves like CC but it just loses to too many of the top threats and I think Leaves is a really hit or miss Pokémon.

As for Walking Wake, that's a Pokémon I have mixed feelings on. A Water type that actually functions well in sun sounds like a really cool concept for a Pokémon. Plus, Dragon STAB is really nice, and Hydro Steam is a really cool move, and of course it has Flamethrower to top it off. However, it's movepool is quite sparse; its only high power special moves are Water, Dragon, and Fire type. (no, Hurricane doesn't count bc why tf would you use Hurricane alongside Koraidon) Plus, I'm not too keen on its base 109 Speed, as Wake is not the bulkiest Pokémon in the world, and a lot of the best Pokémon in the tier (both dragons, Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao and Iron Bundle) have amazing speed. Not having any status-inducing moves or even boosting moves for its special side is also disappointing. Still, I think it has potential and I'm really excited to experiment with it!

So, those are my thoughts on these two new Paradox Pokémon! Keep in mind that this is all before I've tried them out, so I'm interested to hear what y'all think!
 
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So what are we all thinking about Walking Wake and Iron Leaves?


Personally I think Leaves is pretty bad, Grass/Psychic is a terrible typing and it only really has one high power STAB in Psyblade. Swords Dance is interesting and it does have decent moves like CC but it just loses to too many of the top threats and I think Leaves is a really hit or miss Pokémon.

As for Walking Wake, that's a Pokémon I have mixed feelings on. A Water type that actually functions well in sun sounds like a really cool concept for a Pokémon. Plus, Dragon STAB is really nice, and Hydro Steam is a really cool move, and of course it has Flamethrower to top it off. However, it's movepool is quite sparse; its only high power special moves are Water, Dragon, and Fire type. (no, Hurricane doesn't count bc why tf would you use Hurricane alongside Koraidon) Plus, I'm not too keen on its base 109 Speed, as Wake is not the bulkiest Pokémon in the world, and a lot of the best Pokémon in the tier (both dragons, Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao and Iron Bundle) have amazing speed. Not having any status-inducing moves or even boosting moves for its special side is also disappointing. Still, I think it has potential and I'm really excited to experiment with it!

So, those are my thoughts on these two new Paradox Pokémon! Keep in mind that this is all before I've tried them out, so I'm interested to hear what y'all think!
i haven't been playing too much recently, and haven't played ubers since walking wake was released, but after a few calcs it looks pretty scary, especially in a sun-team. the combination of stabs is very scary to switch into, especially with the proto-boost and specs.

flutter mane has ~80% chance to survive a specs sun-hydro steam, and can outspeed and ohko:
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane in Sun: 219-258 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Walking Wake: 558-656 (164.6 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

scream tail has a ridiculously small chance of being 2hko'd after rocks, unless wake commits to a tera and predicts (using tera steel since that's what it currently runs in ou:
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 32+ SpD Protosynthesis Scream Tail in Sun: 172-204 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 32+ SpD Protosynthesis Scream Tail: 230-272 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

spdef annihilape can survive two dracos most of the time, but most likely not two hydro steams in sun. however, it cannot ohko back even after two hits:
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 355-421 (84.3 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape in Sun: 220-259 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Annihilape Rage Fist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 196-232 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

blissey on the other hand tanks hits even from a (most likely only niche) proto-spa-boosted wake in the sun and would probably win the 1vs1:
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 235-277 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 217-256 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 41.3% chance to 3HKO

garg gets 2hko'd by draco only if rocks are up, but obviously folds to hydro steam. if it's already tera'd into water, for example, and there are no rocks, it can beat 244spa-wake:
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 355-421 (87.8 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl in Sun: 110-129 (27.2 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

clod beats 244spa-wake, but has negative odds against 255spa-wake (which again, probably is rather obscure):
252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 434-514 (93.5 - 110.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

spdef ttar (which is in c- on the vr) only has 53.5% odds to survive 2 hydro steams if it's running hdb. however it needs to hit 1/9 odds to 2hko 80% of the time with rock blast:
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 186-218 (46 - 53.9%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Tyranitar Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Walking Wake: 148-180 (43.6 - 53%) -- approx. 82% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

these are the thing i've found that can potentially check / counter walking wake in sun that are ranked on the vr, which makes it seem like a big threat in ubers. getting it in will be one of the challenges when piloting wake, at least without fat pivots, and with that, keeping sun up to make it as dangerous as possible. torkoal is not ranked on the vr, and i don't think i've seen one in ~70 games played before wake's release and after annihilape's ban. maybe it has gained popularity since wake's introduction to the tier, but i don't think it has. also, i don't think heat rock koraidon is a thing.
excuse me if my calcs are wrong, this is the first time i've put together a post like this.
 
Hey everyone, I think the tier has been developing nicely so far, despite the presence of several problematic aspects currently. The most major one that everyone is focused on is, of course, the tera issue, but the reality is that we can't do too much about the situation at the moment.

In the meantime, I'd like to bring attention to a problematic aspect of the tier that we can currently tackle: Moody.

While this may seem strange to bring up, especially as you may not have run into it yourself yet, the reality is that Moody is a purely uncompetitive ability that is already banned in OU and other lower tiers. If you don't know what it does, Moody randomly raises one stat by two and lowers another stat by one. Over a period this time, this will accumulate into a myriad of boosts that greatly outweigh the downsides of the random stat drop. The fundamental nature of Moody's randomness makes it an ability that is not tied to skill at all, making it uncompetitive and just generally not fun.

The reason that Moody was not banned at the start of this gen was because, in Gen 8, Moody had very few viable abusers, with the only one being Glalie. Overall, while Glalie could occasionally sweep, the reality was that it got hard countered by a pokemon that was on nearly every team in the metagame: Necrozma-DM. It's best bet to break past it was to stall out Sunsteel Strike PP, but with the rise of popularity of Iron Head sets, Glalie had a much, much more difficult time stalling out NDM and as such it was just generally seen as gimmicky and ineffective. As a result, it was deemed as mostly harmless, and the tiering council needed to a look at other more pressing issues such as the Zacian and Shadow Tag anyway.

The difference this generation is that we have a much more viable abuser: Scovillain.

Scovillain @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD (or anything you want really)
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect

While it may not seem that intimidating at first, its stats are decent enough, and having access to Leech Seed was the dream of any Moody abuser, giving it unprecedented stalling power in combination with its ability. Flamethrower gives great mono-coverage thanks to it's high PP and burn chance, being immune only by Dachsbun and Ceruledge (the latter which you can potentially stall out with Leech anyway). Another notable aspect is that the tier is currently lacking many viable phazers, with only rare options like Whirlwind Ting-Lu, Haze Pex, Perish Song Scream Tail, or Whirlwind Hippowdon being around. This gives the vast majority of teams little counterplay to Scovillain other than continually hitting it and hoping the random stat drops go their way. Not to mention, several common pokemon that are key to defensive cores such as Corviknight, Ting-Lu, Scream Tail, and Skeledirge can provide a pretty easy set-up opportunity for Scovillain. All it takes is one speed boost for Scovillain to have the ability to stall every team member through Leech Seed, Substitute, and Protect, or just sweep outright with Flamethrower given enough Special Attack boosts.

While Scovillain hasn't been used too much yet (due in part to the general distaste for such a random ability), it has notably been part of SiTuM's run to the 1st place on the ladder at the beginning of the generation, and its already being used in some tour games such as by Fc. It's not a threat that will win you every game, but its something that will let you win games you shouldn't have won in the first place due to the odds going in your favor.

This post was meant to spark discussion with this in mind: I think that Moody should be banned from Ubers in line with OU and the other lower tiers. What do you think?
Hi yes this was posted in December of last year W H Y is Moody still not banned?
 

Taka

I'm the truth only time will teach ya
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Hi yes this was posted in December of last year W H Y is Moody still not banned?
there is a suspect right now for moody.

on another note to make this not a one liner, I'm enjoying building in this tier at the moment. There are so many interesting ways to play with the Ubers mons, such as different variants on CM Mirai and SD Korai. Are there any sets that you guys have been experimenting with recently?

Me personally, I've been liking this set:


Koraidon @ Life Orb
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Collision Course
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz

Similar to ChainChomp in OU, it can bait in Tusk, opening up ways to stack hazards and other physical threats.
 
Hisuian Zoroark has immunity to Fighting and Ghost types, That means it is a easy counter to Annihilape and Houndstone.

However Annihilape can OHKO H-Zoroark with Assurance after it takes damage from Stealth Rock after switching in or Life Orb.

Choice Band variants of Houndstone can deal meaningful damage to H-Zoroark with Play Rough and they can OHKO it if they have Crunch. Otherwise the defensive variants of Houndstone can't touch H-Zoroark rather than inflicting it with a burn.
 
Hisuian Zoroark has immunity to Fighting and Ghost types, That means it is a easy counter to Annihilape and Houndstone.

However Annihilape can OHKO H-Zoroark with Assurance after it takes damage from Stealth Rock after switching in or Life Orb.

Choice Band variants of Houndstone can deal meaningful damage to H-Zoroark with Play Rough and they can OHKO it if they have Crunch. Otherwise the defensive variants of Houndstone can't touch H-Zoroark rather than inflicting it with a burn.
Those traits would make Zoroark very valuable in the tier...If those traits were even valuable.
Annihilape and Houndstone (With very few exceptions & even then, it's very hard to fit) are quite literally unviable and that's not changing any time soon.
 

Taka

I'm the truth only time will teach ya
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Those traits would make Zoroark very valuable in the tier...If those traits were even valuable.
Annihilape and Houndstone (With very few exceptions & even then, it's very hard to fit) are quite literally unviable and that's not changing any time soon.
while i agree with the houndstone statement, annihilape is not unviable and is actually pretty solid in the tier right now as an anti-hazard removal option/mon to pressure the fatter builds in the tier.
 
while i agree with the houndstone statement, annihilape is not unviable and is actually pretty solid in the tier right now as an anti-hazard removal option/mon to pressure the fatter builds in the tier.
I forgor that fat became popular (I fell asleep for ~2 months and stopped building or playing)
 
As this era comes to a close it’s really interesting to reflect on the fact that I think Koraidon has become a bigger menace than Miraidon. Between SD + taunt / Bulk up + taunt / SD terra ghost or shadow claw / Tera fire / LO SD / Tera steel variants etc, without even mentioning all the choices variants or even mixed sets that lure in physical walls, it’s versatility is just unmatched. Miraidon is still amazing and does what it does so brilliantly, but I think Koraidon just goes further in terms of versatility and being so much harder to prep for.

I’m glad to see the VR has updated re flutter mane too; I think its best set is balloon which has 4 immunities and so many switch in opportunities. Pairs incredibly with Koraidon which struggles with defensive tusk, which usually can’t touch a balloon-intact flutter mane. Substitute on a balloon set as well just means it can’t be touched by Clodsire or t wave Blissey w/o shadow ball.
 
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As this era comes to a close it’s really interesting to reflect on the fact that I think Koraidon has become a bigger menace than Miraidon. Between SD + taunt / Bulk up + taunt / SD terra ghost or shadow claw / Tera fire / LO SD / Tera steel variants etc, without even mentioning all the choices variants or even mixed sets that lure in physical walls, it’s versatility is just unmatched. Miraidon is still amazing and does what it does so brilliantly, but I think Koraidon just goes further in terms of versatility and being so much harder to prep for.

I’m glad to see the VR has updated re flutter mane too; I think its best set is balloon which has 4 immunities and so many switch in opportunities. Pairs incredibly with Koraidon which struggles with defensive tusk, which usually can’t touch a balloon-intact flutter mane. Substitute on a balloon set as well just means it can’t be touched by Clodsire or t wave Blissey w/o shadow ball.
Versatility/variety doesn't mean it's as good or difficult to handle though. Miraidon doesn't have as many roles but its usually better at what it does.
 
With HOME being announced for the 24th (and thus the return of everyone's favorite Colgate Slug, Zygarde), Revival Blessing might be banworthy once it drops. Zygarde being OHKO'd by an Abomasnow sneezing in his general direction would be a non-issue if the bastard gets revived to the exact HP threshold where Power Construct activates.
 
With HOME being announced for the 24th (and thus the return of everyone's favorite Colgate Slug, Zygarde), Revival Blessing might be banworthy once it drops. Zygarde being OHKO'd by an Abomasnow sneezing in his general direction would be a non-issue if the bastard gets revived to the exact HP threshold where Power Construct activates.
Where did you find that Zygarde is returning?
 
With HOME being announced for the 24th (and thus the return of everyone's favorite Colgate Slug, Zygarde), Revival Blessing might be banworthy once it drops. Zygarde being OHKO'd by an Abomasnow sneezing in his general direction would be a non-issue if the bastard gets revived to the exact HP threshold where Power Construct activates.
Zygarde is not returning with HOME. Relevant Uber mons that are coming, though, include: Mewtwo, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus, Landorus-I, Magearna, Zacian, Zamazenta, Eternatus, Urshifu-SS, Spectrier, Calyrex-Ice, Calyrex-Shadow, and Last Respects Basculegion.
 
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