Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - Crown Tundra [Shadow Tag Banned]

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You guys sure it's not Calyrex-S and Zacian forcing a Yveltal and Defensive Dusk-Mane on most builds to not get swamped that aggravates the Shadow Tag issue? One is a guaranteed trap by Goth because of how obnoxious Zacian can be outside of Defensive SD variants (which is just for Goth pretty much), and Yveltal sort of forced on most builds outside of some very specific counterplays for Calyrex-S so that itself doesnt snowball. I don't mind the STAG argument, it has obvious merits, but there's two generations prior where STAG is available that has more teambuilding freedom to allow some easier times to handle it and here you have 3 extremely oppressing forces in the form of Zac, Calyrex-S, STAG that limits building to the extreme.
 
A complex ban for Gothitelle seems reasonable. Ban Trick and it becomes a mediocre trapper.
This doesn't exactly work, because it's not like trick is the only thing that makes gothitelle good at all. Sure it's a solid set, but the pp stall trapping set is just as good at removing mons, just sometimes they have a few different niche targets. But aside from that, this argument could be made for any mon and they could be put into a viable position in a tier they have no business being in. Kyogre could be ou tested if it didn't have access to water moves, Zacian-C would be arguably fine without its STAB's or Assurance + SD so Necrozma reliably beat it, why would gothitelle be disallowed from using trick here but not Calyrex-S, who is able to force a lot of pressure due to it? A complex ban of moves never should really work imo, and would open to way too many possible options that would just be us having a sandbox mode of what we want to add and remove from a mon's toolkit.

TLDR: Suspect Shadow Tag, not Gothitelle.
This argument does make sense, there's nothing official in terms of what's happening yet so this discussion is good and is reasonable. I think it's debatable between what we want to preserve, more mons being at least usable such as Wobbufett, or just make everything unviable with the ability but keeping the mons legal (barring like a complex goth + STag option but things can get messy with how STag is handled as shown previously many times). It would take Wynaut down with Gothitelle, and where ubers promotes inclusivity it depends on what we want to happen there, but Shadow Tag and Gothitelle are pretty much the same, so while calling for a Goth test I figure people would be fine with either. Personally I'd vote ban on both, so this argument is sound and it just depends on how this situation is handled.

You guys sure it's not Calyrex-S and Zacian forcing a Yveltal and Defensive Dusk-Mane on most builds to not get swamped that aggravates the Shadow Tag issue? One is a guaranteed trap by Goth because of how obnoxious Zacian can be outside of Defensive SD variants (which is just for Goth pretty much), and Yveltal sort of forced on most builds outside of some very specific counterplays for Calyrex-S so that itself doesnt snowball. I don't mind the STAG argument, it has obvious merits, but there's two generations prior where STAG is available that has more teambuilding freedom to allow some easier times to handle it and here you have 3 extremely oppressing forces in the form of Zac, Calyrex-S, STAG that limits building to the extreme.
I do think that no matter what, Gothitelle will find some way to become problematic. In a tier where everything is so offensively strong those walls are just needed to an extent, and while sm had a bit more diversity things like tank arceus or defensive Zygarde which could be trapped sometimes just had to be a part of any balance to take on the dangerous threats. Calyrex-S really only forces one of Yveltal, Ttar, or Porygon2 at a face level then you can maybe get more creative with things like Ho-oh + Zarude which we saw in MW. Yveltal doesn't fear it unless it's already +6 and it doesn't have taunt or U-turn or doesn't crit any of its moves which have a generally high pp count, so it's basically never scared. Tyranitar has a lot of Crunch PP to crit and also almost never allows a switch in for Goth unless it gets forced to rest, and P2 has Teleport after ideally chipping Gothitelle down somehow to escape the situation. I don't think a Caly ban frees up anything against Gothitelle, and taking down Zacian just so Gothitelle is less absurd doesn't feel right at all, since it's not as hard to handle as Crowned which is already banned for being too much. I think there will always be some very strong mons around that force defensive counterplay, that's just how ubers is currently, so unless we just take down half the tier then Gothitelle will always have targets, be it removing things for Zacian, Kyogre, Xerneas, Groudon, Marshadow, or whatever it wants really. Centralization will always be a part of ubers, it's just fairly extensive now as power creep gets up there, but I think it's still not to an unhealthy point and Gothitelle only makes it worse by removing the ability to switch for these mons that are trying to solidly do their jobs as walls.

I think especially with the buffs goth has now STag is better than ever, so comparing to prior gens with more diverse options that don't have to deal with things like cosmic power stored power and a lack of trick absorbing Arceus isn't the best thing to do imo. I think we should tackle the matter at hand, being that Gothitelle is too much for the defensive meta, and as outlined in SiTuM's post trick can trap a lot of HO leads as well so it's not just the fat teams, and shown in my previous one some HO mons that try and not run max attack max speed can also just lose to it such as defensive DD Dusk Mane, while it also can force things to stay in uncomfortable situations sometimes where they'd prefer to switch.
 

Ropalme1914

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I don't really care if Goth is banned or not as I even voted ban on gen 7 at the time, but I don't see how it's that much different compared to gen 7 where it also was suspected and not banned. The only relevant buff it got is Cosmic Power and maybe Stored Power, but Cosmic Power Gothitelle beats the same mons it could beat before, it's not really trapping more Pokémon. I don't buy either that Calyrex doesn't have anything to do with it: it's not just that Calyrex forces Yveltal, but Calyrex also is REALLY good against offense, which is Gothitelle's worst matchup by far. Goth preys on metas when they are the most defensive, and with Calyrex beating most offensive threats due to it dominating the Speed tiers, of course the meta is going to shape in Goth's favor, even if not to the same extent as Zacian who forced Goth-weak mons by itself like Necrozma-DM.

Goth's trapping capabilities also are being overblown here in my opinion: if you're phys def, you won't trap Eternatus if you come into Dynamax Cannon, even if it's defensive without Dragon Tail. If you're Sp. Def, you aren't trapping Necrozma-DM either with Knock Off avaliable, so you don't need to rely on SD for defensive variants directly either. Simply listing which Pokémon it traps without context also makes it seems far worse than it actually is - Rayquaza can also threaten basically every Pokémon on the tier, but you can't run a set with Dragon Ascent, V-Create, Earthquake, Draco Meteor, Extreme Speed, Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Life Orb, Focus Sash, etc. all on the same set. I do understand that, once Goth traps the Pokémon, it's basically gone; again, we knew that since gen 5, but even with that, you also need to understand that it's almost matchup fishing, as Goth vs HO is basically fighting 5v6, as even the suicide leads like Cloyster and Excadrill have ways to escape Goth.

Usage of Gothitelle in Pre-Home (Most Wanted):




Usage of Gothitelle in DLC1 (UPL VIII):

Why is Gothitelle's usage on Home even relevant for this? It's a far different meta, and those numbers that you showed are...less than impressive to say the least. Winrate stayed around 50% and one of the weeks has 0% winrate. If you want to look at a relevant number, look at the MW, a recent tournament on the Crown Tundra meta where Gothitelle only was used 5 times and won one game out of those (with most of the tour allowing Zacian-C, who created an even better enviroment for Goth than the one we have now).

If we look at replays, what about this one: [Gen 8] Ubers replay: faint vs. Lopunny kicks - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
We see Gothitelle trapping Dugtrio after it had already defeated Eternatus, and when it came time to defeat a 50% HP paralyzed defensive Necrozma-DM with a Charm set...it simply lost. It wasn't even a Goth-tailored set with SD or something, it was a standard Knock Off one.

Honestly I just think that a pokemon whose core strategy is to force an inescapable PP stall is cancer that shouldn't be tolerated. I know "fun" isn't considered a valid criterion for banning something (and I'm not even looking to dispute this, despite what I'll be saying in this post), but fuck me, Goth really pushes the limits of how far we can take that reasoning. This shit is so boring that I honestly don't know how people can tolerate it being a core part of the meta, other than hoping that its usage remains low due to most people not being bloody psychopaths.

I literally timer stall when I get trapped by Goth, not due to BM, but because playing out the ensuing protracted scenario by mindlessly clicking for an extended period leaves me so unfocused that I'd honestly be better off clicking X if there were no other option. At least by walking away from my laptop for 30 seconds every couple turns to grab a snack or fold some laundry or some dumb shit, I can maintain a level of mental activity that surpasses most vegetables
This also has no competitive basis and Gothitelle is not the only PP stalling mon either, we literally have Pressure cores for that and it's how Eternatus, a S rank Pokémon, wins some of its 1v1s.

As for why I think Calyrex is way more of a problem and more centralizing: we never have seen a Pokémon that forces such a specific answer on every team until now. This is not like Primal Kyogre was on gen 7 where it was basically Pdon and Ferrothorn: Calyrex is more like Pogre forced specifically Sp. Def Rest Primal Groudon, and Ferrothorn could be 2HKOed by a common move that it runs that's not HP dependant and you removed the offensive counterplay for it since you go from slow to second fastest Pokémon in the tier. I've lost count the times I saw people running Tyranitar as their answer and I simply clicked Specs Grass Knot and it didn't help against it at all, even from its first switch-in at 100%. Same goes for Porygon2, Trick not only makes it almost useless as you can't even Teleport out if you use Trick Room, but Psyshock already forces a Recover every time Porygon2 comes in. Yveltal is a Pokémon with amazing potential here, but I simply can't afford to run Band on most teams because, if I dare to run a team without it and also not use Snarl or Taunt, I basically lose from Team Preview. It's not just forcing a Pokémon, it's forcing a SET on every team.

Btw, just finish this, if you want to suspect Goth, either suspect both Gothitelle and Gothorita or Shadow Tag in general, Gothorita still is doing the same thing as Leftovers Gothitelle does with Eviolite, so only Trick sets are truly nerfed (and if you trick on a status move, it doesn't matter either way), so purely banning Gothitelle is letting most of the problem persist.
 
You guys sure it's not Calyrex-S and Zacian forcing a Yveltal and Defensive Dusk-Mane on most builds to not get swamped that aggravates the Shadow Tag issue? One is a guaranteed trap by Goth because of how obnoxious Zacian can be outside of Defensive SD variants (which is just for Goth pretty much), and Yveltal sort of forced on most builds outside of some very specific counterplays for Calyrex-S so that itself doesnt snowball. I don't mind the STAG argument, it has obvious merits, but there's two generations prior where STAG is available that has more teambuilding freedom to allow some easier times to handle it and here you have 3 extremely oppressing forces in the form of Zac, Calyrex-S, STAG that limits building to the extreme.
As it could look like that, is not the problem with goth. I think the main reason why goth is so overpower this gen is for a couple of details: First, we have incredible speed ties this gen, this are Zacian H and Calyrex both or they force max speed natures in offensive mons and lower the impact from some bulky set up sweepers (As DM, Groudon or Zygarde) make this things less powerfull that they should be. Second is a result of this, we have a bulk but slower meta, if we talk about the mos relevant walls in the tier (Buzzwole, Xerneas, Zygarde, DM, Eternatus) all of they need to go for a passive play style in order to win, thats because the absence of Z cristal and M evolutions, that makes that every time on of this came to the field to sotp a threatening they need to use some recover moves before they can do something to atack. And, to finish this, Goth have a easier work to pp stall thanks to cosmic power, once you come to field thanks for that recovery move, you can press charm/confide and then proceed to spam cosmic power and rest until you win, and you can make that not only once, twice. You can pp stall DM and Zygarde on the same battle, wich is really stupid tbh. With the increase of cosmic power the enemy just depends on luck to avoid the pp stall and in most part of the cases that mean they lost all the offensive pressure against the enemy wich is basically play a 5vs6.
 
You guys sure it's not Calyrex-S and Zacian forcing a Yveltal and Defensive Dusk-Mane on most builds to not get swamped that aggravates the Shadow Tag issue? One is a guaranteed trap by Goth because of how obnoxious Zacian can be outside of Defensive SD variants (which is just for Goth pretty much), and Yveltal sort of forced on most builds outside of some very specific counterplays for Calyrex-S so that itself doesnt snowball. I don't mind the STAG argument, it has obvious merits, but there's two generations prior where STAG is available that has more teambuilding freedom to allow some easier times to handle it and here you have 3 extremely oppressing forces in the form of Zac, Calyrex-S, STAG that limits building to the extreme.
You're right here that such powerful offensive mons forcing specific defensive sets are likely what causes Gothitelle to be so good; however, Caly-S is not one of them as Gothitelle does not fare well against Yveltal. Also, this could be the other way around, as in it is Gothitelle that enables powerful mons such as Zacian, Kyogre and Xerneas to be so effective against teams. It could even be argued that Gothitelle's presence is what put Zacian-C over the edge, by trapping and removing its already shaky checks. If this is the case, it is better to remove the single enabling element rather than multiple offensive threats.

As Fc04 said, Goth got a buff when compared to previous gens simply due to trick immune mons such as Primals, Megas and Arceus being removed, but arguably more due to the fact that the defensive mons which have replaced them simply don't have the offensive power or typing to reliably deal with Gothitelle. Whilst there is a limit to what Goth can trap, with Trick being a one time thing, its can still PP Stall and remove more than one wall each game if it comes in correctly. This is the key problem with Gothitelle, that the Goth player only has to get one switch correct to trap its target whereas their opponent has to get the play correct every time, and any mon that can't 3hko Goth can get trapped. To put it simply, Goth chooses what it beats in the teambuilder and then beats it as soon as it gets the chance, especially with good play preventing it from taking damage as it comes in - the Knock Off situation in the replay Ropalme linked can be avoided if Goth comes in at full health.

On the other hand, there is counterplay to Goth; Shed Shell exists, as do moves such as Dragon Tail and Whirlwind. Whilst you could argue these are suboptimal, being able to deal with something that otherwise beats you is just a part of teambuilding and if you lose to it because you don't prep for it then that's on you - no team can prepare for everything but realistically an optimal set is one that doesn't lose to common meta game threats. Goth can also be outplayed, similar to how you try not to get a kill with a mon that would be setup fodder for Xerneas for example, you can try not to get a kill with a mon that Goth can beat from full health. Obviously this is easier said than done but Goth relies on being at near full health - it is taking on Ubers mons with its non-Ubers level stats - meaning that one good play can make Goth somewhat useless. Goth is also matchup reliant; obviously trick can cripple almost anything but it's a single use move and the Taunt, Charm, Confide, Rest set is borderline useless against webs builds that rely on offensively checking threats. Both these factors result in teams with Goth running the risk of ending up with a mon that does nothing taking up a team slot - unlike the other candidates for suspect which will always threaten teams.

The argument that PP Stall isn't fun so we should ban it is not a good one; some people don't like stall but this is competitive, we're not going to ban Giratina-A because people think it makes for dull games. A lot of effort to preserve Leppa Berry whilst avoiding endless battles has been put in specifically because PP Stall is a perfectly viable competitive strategy.

OK, I'm not into Ubers so I'm probably going to make myself look stupid here, but I really think that all of these calls to suspect test/ban Gothitelle are really in bad faith here. From what I've been reading, the main problem that people have with Gothitelle is its annoying Shadow Tag + Trick combo, emphasis on the former. You take away the Shadow Tag part of it, and Gothitelle's entire strategy falls apart. I really think it would be silly to send a Pokemon from ZU all the way to AG because of its ability.

What I'm saying here is, if anything should be suspected here, it should be Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag forms the entirety of Gothitelle's niche in Ubers. If it didn't have the ability to trap, Ubers players wouldn't even be thinking about it. It only is as problematic as it is because of its trapping capabilities.

Now, I know what you might be thinking. "StarFalcon555, aren't you just basically suggesting a Gothitelle suspect? It's the only viable user of Shadow Tag anyways." Well, just because a Pokémon is a viable user of an ability does not mean it is a viable Pokémon overall. Take Dugtrio, for example. It basically filled the same role in OU as Gothitelle does here with Arena Trap. Yet it was Arena Trap, not Dugtrio, that was suspected and then banned. This is because the OU council and playerbase understood that without Arena Trap, Dugtrio is an unusable shitmon. And sure enough, after the Arena Trap ban, Dugtrio descended into ZU, where it currently is completely unviable.

Just like Dugtrio, Gothitelle is an unviable shitmon everywhere except for Ubers. The only reason it is viable in Ubers is Shadow Tag. And it would make no sense at all to send a mon that is currently nowhere to be found on the ZU viability rankings all the way to AG solely on the basis of its ability.

TLDR: Suspect Shadow Tag, not Gothitelle.
I am not entirely sure about how bans like this work but I am fairly sure that Ubers tiering has no impact on the tiers below it, therefore it would be better to suspect test Gothitelle in order to preserve Wobbuffet in Ubers, as Gothitelle without Shadow Tag is unviable whereas Wobbuffet is. There was a previous Gothitelle suspect, so there is precedent for this.

TLDR; Goth itself isn't that broken, there is enough counterplay both in-game and in the teambuilder to be able to deal with it. Similar to Zacian-C its a combination of many powerful offensive threats without sufficient defensive counterplay which causes problems in this meta. Goth's ability to remove some of the best defensive mons in the game without any real trouble aside from what are considered suboptimal or niche sets make it a problem, as it enables offensive threats to run through teams. A suspect test of Gothitelle and potentially Gothorita would give the chance to decide if it's unhealthy enough to get banned.
 
This also has no competitive basis and Gothitelle is not the only PP stalling mon either, we literally have Pressure cores for that and it's how Eternatus, a S rank Pokémon, wins some of its 1v1s.
I mean, I'm not about to dispute that my post has no competitive basis, given that I agree that it has no competitive basis (I did try to make that point in that very post). However I really don't think that it's accurate to equate Goth PP stall with Pressure or other PP stall. Executing a Pressure stall takes considerably more skill than a Goth trap and involves a hell of a lot more meaningful decisions, which in turn makes it a far more interesting strategy. A Goth trap on the other hand, involves no meaningful or interesting decisions, and no skill from either player once it begins. The player being trapped has literally no meaningful options left to them, and are subsequently forced to mindlessly click buttons until they die from Struggle. This kind of dynamic I think we can fairly say is utterly toxic, independent of whether or not it's broken.

It's not that PP stall is boring because that's not even a point I agree with. It's that the player being trapped is totally deprived of options
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Also I regret not getting involved in g7, because implementing a complex ban in the form of SleepTrap rather than banning an obviously broken ability like STag is pretty dumb imo. That said, in the current environment I'd probably lean more towards a Goth ban, because even though STag is a broken ability, there's not really anything else at present that's really broken with it (maybe Gothorita?). With only one culprit, I'd lean towards banning the pokemon, rather than implementing a broad ban that impacts multiple pokemon, but I'm not opposed to targeting STag either because that's the root of the problem

The argument that PP Stall isn't fun so we should ban it is not a good one; some people don't like stall but this is competitive, we're not going to ban Giratina-A because people think it makes for dull games. A lot of effort to preserve Leppa Berry whilst avoiding endless battles has been put in specifically because PP Stall is a perfectly viable competitive strategy.
I guess the Leppa berry argument makes sense? I just find it weird lol, because Leppa berry not being banned to me is unfathomably stupid in that PR was presented with a problem with an obvious solution, and then went to extraordinary lengths to implement a different, horrifically convoluted solution that was still significantly worse than the obvious choice, all for the sake of preserving an item that sees practically no use in any format and is generally totally irrelevant. It feels so strange to see that used in a positive context, but it actually does support your argument, which is even more peculiar. In conclusion, I don't really have a point and I hope this doesn't sound negative bc I'm not meaning to start a drama. Ban leppa berry though
 
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jessep123

Banned deucer.
Now that Most Wanted has ended, I wanted to go over a few things from the usage stats, with a bit more on week 5 since that's post Zacian-C but just in general, as well as some thoughts on the meta and some mons.

:buzzwole:
| 17 | Buzzwole | 4 | 5.00% | 75.00% |

The goat, high win percentage because it's an underrated wall to a lot of the most dangerous threats currently, and can just take almost any physical hit needed. It beats Zygarde barring dd dtail/toxic and even then can wear it down and break subs, as well as being one of the best Groudon checks for the dangerous dual dance sets. Beats sp.def Yveltal for free also, since knock does 0 damage and it can bulk up / ice punch, and while U-turn is annoying it's still a solid pivot. Also beats Marshadow :swole:

:giratina-origin:
| 20 | Giratina-Origin | 3 | 3.75% | 100.00% |

Interesting to see here as I hadn't looked at where it stood before, but I doubt it will even be any worse with the Zacian-C ban because it can't beat either of them as the standard sets ran Play Rough. It has a good utility movepool, great bulk, and is also a check to Groudon but it feels like to not much else aside from that. Maybe a fringe Zygarde check also depending on the set, but generally just a solid tank for some big threats, interesting to see, I liked it myself when I used it.

:galvantula: :shuckle: :slurpuff:
| 20 | Galvantula | 3 | 3.75% | 100.00% |

| 20 | Shuckle | 3 | 3.75% | 33.33% |

| 30 | Slurpuff | 2 | 2.50% | 50.00% |

Grouping the web setters together, and it's interesting to see Galvantula come out on top between them. I always thought it was really good, but the one time I used webs I opted for slurpuff, but galv seems to be taking over as arguably the best. Accurate thunder and twave while setting webs goes a long way, and I think it might be the setter of choice going forward if HO's want to just get faster. Shuckle compresses rocks into one mon, but its speed and susceptibility to a lot of things has probably led to that usage equaling Galvantula but the lesser win rate.

:Yveltal: :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane:
| 1 | Yveltal | 71 | 88.75% | 47.89% |
| 2 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 70 | 87.50% | 48.57% |

The two at the top of the meta, keeping the most powerful offensive threats in check. Yveltal with just one more use all tour, and what's interesting is that the only week Necrozma had more uses was week 5, the one Zacian-C was banned for, where it had only tied with it at best previously. It was generally assumed that dusk would stick around post Zacian-C just for the utility but ideally it wasn't as needed, but this sample size, while small, might be showing that it's just as needed if not more than ever.

:tangrowth:
| 20 | Tangrowth | 3 | 3.75% | 66.67% |

2 in one game right before Zacian-C was banned, but it still won on at least 1 team whenever it came. I think it'll start picking up a ton, it's a really good way to pivot into banded Zacian without directly fearing any more like Ho-oh would as well as getting helmet chip. Checks a ton of scary mons outside of that as well, mostly dual dance Groudon and Zygarde although toxic likely wins long term, as well as Marshadow which just barely doesn't 2HKO Tangrowth.

:lunala:
| 12 | Lunala | 8 | 10.00% | 25.00% |

Surprising and quite disappointing, I think it's still a very good wall but it feels like it's slowly getting outclassed. It loses to toxic Zygarde as well as Marshadow but beats other Zygarde as well as Groudon. Pokemon like Buzzwole and Tangrowth are similar while also beating Marshadow, with one big thing Lunala has going for it is that it can't be trapped by Gothitelle. Overall though, I thinkn it may slowly just start to fall off as time goes on, and banded Zacian hits really hard no matter the move so I doubt it can be useful there, if you need a pivot into cc after something like a regen mon then run Calyrex-Shadow.

:Zacian:
| 6 | Zacian | 4 | 28.57% | 50.00% |

Last usage specific rant, but these are the stats for the last week where Zacian-C was banned. Regular Zacian is extremely noticeably less used, because it's less splashable and finds it harder to come in on a lot of attacks due to the lack of steel typing and vulnerability to knock off. Decent win rate but I think more was expected of Zacian, it feels much easier in game and allows for more pivot usage which varies things up a bit in play and very slightly in the builder because your pivots aren't just dying to assurance wild charge or play rough anymore since band can't switch moves and the others are weaker to pivoting chip or just dusk mane in general.


Now, past random mons that I thought were cool and had notable stats, a final one with notable stats but also many problems past those.
:SS/Gothitelle: (+maybe :gothorita:)
| 15 | Gothitelle | 5 | 6.25% | 20.00% |

These stats reflect quite badly on Gothitelle, where the only win was from my own week 1 game when Zacian-C was still legal, but in general Gothitelle is in my opinion the most problematic mon currently and maybe that the tier has ever had barring Dynamax. Trapping warps the game to unhealthy lengths when the trapper is good in the meta, and Gothitelle is amazing in the meta. People have started running dd/sd Necrozma-DM on balance, Dragon Tail etern which is generally quite bad overall, and mons that stretch their pp amount extremely hard with things like Bulldoze Tangrowth which was used in MW. If a team wants to use most realistic defensive cores, at least some of it either has to be unoptimal defensively or it loses to Gothitelle. Carrying shed shell is great until it gets knocked off which is very common at least for Eternatus, and Dusk Mane isn't immune to staying in on things like Yveltal, Ferro, other Dusk Mane, etc. The options become either run suboptimal sets and sometimes beat Gothitelle (defensive dd dusk mane still losing to Gothitelle) or just lose to Gothitelle unless you get insanely lucky crit fishing. And if there is no goth? Well you just have a suboptimal which does not much, a position I found myself in with SD defensive dusk mane where I needed another rocker as well as couldn't fit twave just because I didn't want to lose to Gothitelle, and SD Necrozma ended up never doing anything because teams were naturally alright against it. Dtail etern with tspikes support has its uses, but trick Gothitelle sets are also extremely bad for it if it wants to stay around a long time for things like Kygore, because before this all I was describing the impacts of was the defensive pp stalling set, while trick is still another extremely good set that can put a mon out of the game quite early if played around it even semi decently, maybe even with Goth just tricking it then beating it later.

Gothitelle puts an unhealthy amount of restriction and fear in building, because sometimes you just have to accept the loss to getting the ability to switch taken away or make the team objectively worse, which again still doesn't always make the defensive mon come out on top. Another example is something like fast taunt Gothitelle with good predictions beating WW Ho-oh, because it can't actually phaze if you taunt correctly and only has 8 sacred fire's. Twave BB Sacred Roost/Defog is also trapped, just not on the switch in unless it's to a status move. I added a mention on Gothorita because I feel like it's necessary when discussing the goths. It has similar bulk with Eviolite, so theoretically it can do very similar things just without the trick set being as good. I think goth is far and away the biggest threat in the meta, I much prefer Calyrex-S for example which I still think is a fine part of the meta, but Gothitelle is the main thing I think is a threat currently.
Ban Shadow Tag not Gothitelle
 
Trapping is not skilless. You can choose to get trapped or not trapped by interesting and meaningful plays. It's solely your fault if you make the wrong play to get trapped in the first place. I know that it's hard for some of you to accept that you made a terrible sequence of plays to result into your trapping that you deserve. It's okay, we all can learn from our mistakes. The risk of messing up with Goth is bigger than being trapped cuz if you get any of it wrong, then you're playing 5v6. It's a high risk and high reward pokemon. It's appropriately balanced and healthy part of tier.

I am sympathetic to the argument that Gothitelle is boring and unfun. I get that sitting there clicking buttons for 70-80 turns to successfully execute being "OHKO'd" isn't fun. However, there are various Gothitelle sets that aren't as boring and should be preserved. Stored power sets are much faster and more exciting and can actually result into sweeps. Trick sets are also very fast and have much more interesting interactions.

My proposal is to complex ban all Gothitelle with no damaging moves in a set. I believe this will preserve historically integral part of Ubers while eliminating the most boring and painful sets for both sides to execute.
 
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Trapping is not skilless. You can choose to get trapped or not trapped by interesting and meaningful plays. It's solely your fault if you make the wrong play to get trapped in the first place. I know that it's hard for some of you to accept that you made a terrible sequence of plays to result into your trapping that you deserve. It's okay, we all can learn from our mistakes. The risk of messing up with Goth is bigger than being trapped cuz if you get any of it wrong, then you're playing 5v6. It's a high risk and high reward pokemon. It's appropriately balanced and healthy part of tier.

I am sympathetic to the argument that Gothitelle is boring and unfun. I get that sitting there clicking buttons for 70-80 turns to successfully execute being "OHKO'd" isn't fun. However, there are various Gothitelle sets that aren't as boring and should be preserved. Stored power sets are much faster and more exciting and can actually result into sweeps. Trick sets are also very fast and have much more interesting interactions.

My proposal is to complex ban all Gothitelle with no damaging moves in a set. I believe this will preserve historically integral part of Ubers while eliminating the most boring and painful sets for both sides to execute.
Bro this is worse than the don't ban zacian arguments you've made.

My opp just sent in an SD Zacian and dusk mane is the one mon who can handle it? But whoops, he just doubled into goth, time to lose!
Scarf Ogre is in on the ho-oh ready to claim a body? Well this goth just claimed eternatus/blissey and now this is easier than a kirby game.
This groudon is really hard to switch into! Thank god i have my rest haze zygarde- oh nvm no i dont.
Man if only i can remove this guys phys def xerneas, then my marshadow can go brazy!! Oh, oh i can? for free? oh im gonna eat GOOD today.

Speaking of the 5v6 thing you said. It's nowhere near 5v6 when the opp simply cannot send in certain pokemon because goth can come in and control z the mon out your builder. If you find your gothitelle losing often to the pokemon you try to trap either you have terrible luck or you suck at using goth. Also how in the world do you be like "man stored power sets are HEATER, we gotta keep those!" but suggest to just remove the entire reason stored power functions as a move- boosting.

"man if you mess up with goth its 5v6" ...it's the exact same on the other side man.
"brooo i don't have scope lens night slash on my Necrozma i can like never send it in bro helpppp... oh i'm forced to go into it huh? ah fine, he won't go goth. Oh. he went goth huh. Well boys it's been fun, tell my momma i love her, but it's OVER"

Come on dawg, if you can't use status moves on Gothitelle, you got the Gothorita that can do the same thing. I understand complex bans, but even if you use specs it can do THE SAME THING, and its still just as toxic, no Brittany. Just say you don't want to ban any single thing in the tier because it's Ubers.
 
toxic, no Brittany
It's 3 a.m. and this made me laugh maniacally thank you bro.

Gothitelle is no different than Dugtrio in gens 4-8 OU. If there's another mon which appreciates Goth trapping a laundry list of its more passive checks and counters, it's incredibly low risk to run a Goth. If someone gets mad I relate it to OU, stay mad. I'm right.

"What if they bring Hyper Offense, see it's a big risk!" arguments are braindead. Shuckle is technically forced to run Final Gambit otherwise Goth can stall out to prevent Hazards, same idea with Misty Explosion on Slurpuff, poor Galvantula gets nae-nae'd bar Fc04 levels of paralysis. Screens? Goth won't trap anything else on that sort of team, might as well temporarily trap the Grimmsnarl to stall screens for free. It's not competitive.

Besides, playing "so that you don't get trapped" is not fair like in other circumstances where you need to play in a different style than what's most "safe." Take being more aggressive/assertive against stall. You might get outplayed trying to double floor(e^34) times against Blissey and friends, but you have the ability to start a sequence of plays over many times before you're PP stalled. It's anyone's game here, fairly so. Either side can use the whole team and play a game.

Using a Goth instead requires one correct play from the user against the opponent's myriad of game-changing 50/50s of whether to call a Goth switch or not. Paired with U-Turn or something to bring Goth in for free, you can't even win at preview. Anyone that can do basic math should realize that the odds that Goth completely invalidates an opposing mon or two outweigh the chance you somehow dodge all the trapping chances and win with the part of your team that can't get trapped. If you dispute basic math I can't help you.

I don't know my opinion on Gothorita yet, never played it. I imagine it's essentially the same, though.
 
PU main here climbing up from the absolute depths of the tiering ladder to share his opinion on the Ubers metagame and the big issue that is Calyrex-Shadow. I've been playing ubers since dmax got banned and always have been looking on forums to see the state of the meta since SS started because ubers is a cool tier and I like playing it (much more now because zacian-c is gone and Quagsire isn't on every other team I face). I have no input on the Gothitelle thing because I frankly haven't seen enough of it but i really Calyrex is a much more pressing.

:calyrex-shadow:
I haven't seen a mon this braindead ever. Red flags are already drawn when you see Yveltal is legit the only splashable and viable check to this thing. You have to look at Dark-types in general (because that is the only type stopping this monster) and you'll see that the likes of Tyranitar will get bopped by Grass Knot and Draining Kiss on NP sets will get the rest. This mon just has the tools to be the most centralising mon. The best speed tier, a spammable 120BP STAB, broken ability. I couldn't ask for more when using the mon. Now my biggest problem that this mon causes is the teambuilding aspect.

1612101078223.png

Now you'll understand why I called this team 30 secs because it really did take me that long to make. How has teambuilding gotten so 0 IQ that I legit had a long thought of "use most broken thing in the tier, have the best check to most broken thing in the tier. Use top 5 most broken in the tier (zacian-H) and the best check to that, filler which turns out to check MBTITT and finally top 3 most broken." I played 20 games at 2am and only lost one game because I missplayed vs mono fighting LMAO. But do you see the point I'm trying to get at? Teams will usually have the first 3 mons already at preview. There is no variety to any teams and if you refuse to use Yveltal, you will probably lose to Calyrex. I won't use bad building for my argument because the amount of people I faced yesterday that had no Yveltal and just instantly lost to Calyrex but it does go to show that most teams not using that mon will struggle with the mu a lot. It's not necessarily gg when Calyrex is around because there is Shadow Sneak from Marshadow pressures it and so does Urshifu and Yveltal's Sucker Punch but because Yveltal is already a great check regardless of having Sucker Punch or not, it is really only Marshadow and Urshifu that check it with priority.

In conclusion, Calyrex-Shadow is a massive plague in the tier, warping teambuilding around itself and sure it isn't the only contributor to that (Zacian-H honestly does the same thing but on a lower scale), and is universally agreed to be the most broken thing in the tier thanks to his powerful offensive capabilities and overpowered speed tier. A suspect is probably coming sooner or later but I just wanted to share my thoughts on what I've seen and experienced. Thanks for reading!
 
Trapping is not skilless. You can choose to get trapped or not trapped by interesting and meaningful plays. It's solely your fault if you make the wrong play to get trapped in the first place. I know that it's hard for some of you to accept that you made a terrible sequence of plays to result into your trapping that you deserve. It's okay, we all can learn from our mistakes. The risk of messing up with Goth is bigger than being trapped cuz if you get any of it wrong, then you're playing 5v6. It's a high risk and high reward pokemon. It's appropriately balanced and healthy part of tier.

I am sympathetic to the argument that Gothitelle is boring and unfun. I get that sitting there clicking buttons for 70-80 turns to successfully execute being "OHKO'd" isn't fun. However, there are various Gothitelle sets that aren't as boring and should be preserved. Stored power sets are much faster and more exciting and can actually result into sweeps. Trick sets are also very fast and have much more interesting interactions.

My proposal is to complex ban all Gothitelle with no damaging moves in a set. I believe this will preserve historically integral part of Ubers while eliminating the most boring and painful sets for both sides to execute.
Bullshit. Trapping is THE definition of uncompetitive. According to tiering policy:

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
That sure sounds like Shadow Tag to me. And to be honest, the fact that Arena Trap and Shadow Tag have been banned from OU in pretty much every generation speaks for itself. Making a terrible play is one thing, as there is a chance I could still bounce back and win, but this is something else entirely. It's like "I'm screwed even harder than if I was King Dedede going against Mega Man" levels of bad. Mega Gengar in particular was so bad it was QBed from OU. Largely because it was like "Salamence is in the back ready to sweep, and Mega Gengar has their fairy trapped? I'll mow their team down like I was playing a Warriors game!" Or, "That Magic Guard Life Orb Alakazam is really gonna waste my team! Blissey's here to save--well, shit, she got trapped. Time to take another L!" FFS, it was even suspect tested for banning from Ubers (it wasn't banned, but that's beside the point)! All this being said, I'm more on the side of banning Shadow Tag altogether, because my gut is telling me that if Gothitelle is banned, Gothorita will be used in its place, and likely can pull some of the same crap Gothitelle did.
 
Bullshit. Trapping is THE definition of uncompetitive. According to tiering policy:


That sure sounds like Shadow Tag to me. And to be honest, the fact that Arena Trap and Shadow Tag have been banned from OU in pretty much every generation speaks for itself. Making a terrible play is one thing, as there is a chance I could still bounce back and win, but this is something else entirely. It's like "I'm screwed even harder than if I was King Dedede going against Mega Man" levels of bad. Mega Gengar in particular was so bad it was QBed from OU. Largely because it was like "Salamence is in the back ready to sweep, and Mega Gengar has their fairy trapped? I'll mow their team down like I was playing a Warriors game!" Or, "That Magic Guard Life Orb Alakazam is really gonna waste my team! Blissey's here to save--well, shit, she got trapped. Time to take another L!" FFS, it was even suspect tested for banning from Ubers (it wasn't banned, but that's beside the point)! All this being said, I'm more on the side of banning Shadow Tag altogether, because my gut is telling me that if Gothitelle is banned, Gothorita will be used in its place, and likely can pull some of the same crap Gothitelle did.
Trapping has not been banned in the history of Ubers; saying we should ban Shadow Tag based on past precedent in OU is not a good argument. Further, more of the Shadow Tag mons to be banned from OU have been by suspect test, whilst Mega Gengar was quickbanned, meaning its ban was more to do with MGar itself than the ability. This applies here; Wobbuffet is not broken, in fact it is a fun way of disincentivising banded Zac-H from getting a kill, therefore the problem is Gothitelle - it is easy enough to suspect both Gothitelle and Gothorita at once. The reason people use Blissey over Chansey is that Blissey holds an item other than Eviolite - which could be Shed Shell if you don't want to get trapped. If your only check to a mon running through your team is something that Goth traps, put a Shed Shell on it, or a phasing move, or fast taunt. Easier said than done, but building to deal with threats in the meta is part of the game. If doing this makes teams significantly weaker to other threats then there is an argument to get rid of Goth, but saying a mon is broken without mentioning counterplay to it and arguing why that counterplay is suboptimal makes for a poor argument.

PU main here climbing up from the absolute depths of the tiering ladder to share his opinion on the Ubers metagame and the big issue that is Calyrex-Shadow. I've been playing ubers since dmax got banned and always have been looking on forums to see the state of the meta since SS started because ubers is a cool tier and I like playing it (much more now because zacian-c is gone and Quagsire isn't on every other team I face). I have no input on the Gothitelle thing because I frankly haven't seen enough of it but i really Calyrex is a much more pressing.

:calyrex-shadow:
I haven't seen a mon this braindead ever. Red flags are already drawn when you see Yveltal is legit the only splashable and viable check to this thing. You have to look at Dark-types in general (because that is the only type stopping this monster) and you'll see that the likes of Tyranitar will get bopped by Grass Knot and Draining Kiss on NP sets will get the rest. This mon just has the tools to be the most centralising mon. The best speed tier, a spammable 120BP STAB, broken ability. I couldn't ask for more when using the mon. Now my biggest problem that this mon causes is the teambuilding aspect.

View attachment 312197
Now you'll understand why I called this team 30 secs because it really did take me that long to make. How has teambuilding gotten so 0 IQ that I legit had a long thought of "use most broken thing in the tier, have the best check to most broken thing in the tier. Use top 5 most broken in the tier (zacian-H) and the best check to that, filler which turns out to check MBTITT and finally top 3 most broken." I played 20 games at 2am and only lost one game because I missplayed vs mono fighting LMAO. But do you see the point I'm trying to get at? Teams will usually have the first 3 mons already at preview. There is no variety to any teams and if you refuse to use Yveltal, you will probably lose to Calyrex. I won't use bad building for my argument because the amount of people I faced yesterday that had no Yveltal and just instantly lost to Calyrex but it does go to show that most teams not using that mon will struggle with the mu a lot. It's not necessarily gg when Calyrex is around because there is Shadow Sneak from Marshadow pressures it and so does Urshifu and Yveltal's Sucker Punch but because Yveltal is already a great check regardless of having Sucker Punch or not, it is really only Marshadow and Urshifu that check it with priority.

In conclusion, Calyrex-Shadow is a massive plague in the tier, warping teambuilding around itself and sure it isn't the only contributor to that (Zacian-H honestly does the same thing but on a lower scale), and is universally agreed to be the most broken thing in the tier thanks to his powerful offensive capabilities and overpowered speed tier. A suspect is probably coming sooner or later but I just wanted to share my thoughts on what I've seen and experienced. Thanks for reading!
To get this part out of the way first: Ubers does not ban a mon simply because it is overcentralising; ~70% usage has become normal in the past few generations of Ubers. Having to run certain checks is similarly commonplace - Specs Kyogre in DPP being a prime example. However, I agree that this meta is somewhat boring - the Zac-C ban has had some impact but Zac-H causes similar problems in that, combined with Caly-S to beat each others' checks and complemented by Goth which just removes the standard defensive answers, creativity is restricted if you don't want to instantly lose to certain threats. Whilst no individual mon by itself is particularly broken, there is a combination of factors which makes this meta dull to build in and play and we need to decide which is the worst offender, in order to keep the banlist minimal.

In my opinion, Caly-S isn't a huge problem; Yveltal is close enough to a counter to it - even offensive can avoid the 2HKO if hazards aren't up, and other mons such as TTar, Umbreon and Blissey are able to check it (I know Psyshock exists). Zac-H is almost a worse offender than Zac-C, being able to pick up on some clean 2HKOs and OHKOs that Zac-C couldn't quite get - albeit with the obvious problems of choice lock. Gothitelle is what exacerbates the problem in Ubers; we have insanely strong offensive mons and defensive mons that can't quite keep up without severely sacrificing their offensive power which are therefore liable to being trapped. Whilst it is perfectly possible to play around Gothitelle, or build a team that doesn't lose to it, this makes the team weaker to other mons - put simply there are far too many offensive threats, and the tools needed to handle Gothitelle are tools which aren't particularly useful in any other scenario. Moreover, counterplay to Goth relies on getting it right every time it comes in, one mistake on a full health Goth and you lose a mon. If it ends up being a choice between sacrificing Goth and sacrificing mons which you couldn't really argue are uncompetitive, the choice is clear.

TLDR; This tier is dull and uninteresting and no amount of creative defensive counterplay will be sufficient in dealing with Goth as well as the myriad of offensive threats. Despite it being possible to deal with Gothitelle, both in the teambuilder and in battle (see my previous post), this tier is not as fun or creative as previous iterations of Ubers, therefore something needs to be done and if people think it's Goth then a suspect test of Gothitelle is perfectly reasonable.
 

Manaphy

POCARI SWEAT
is a Tiering Contributor
Hello everyone,

I have not been impressed with the general low level of discourse happening in this thread, so as a member of the SS Council I am going to make this post in an attempt to make things clearer for everyone.
Nearly all of the top SS players are unanimous in wanting to suspect Gothitelle before Calyrex-SR. This includes the entire QC, VR, and SS Councils as well as other top players including me, steelskitty, TrueNora, Icemaster, TonyFlygon, terra the creator, Skysolo, Staxi, FC, Pohjis, reje, and SiTuM, among others.
This is not to say that the Council is not interested in suspecting Calyrex-SR!! I cannot state this enough. Anyone who thinks our interest in dealing with Gothitelle first is an indication we don't care about Calyrex is mistaken. It just so happens that all of the top level Ubers players tend to agree that Goth is a more pressing issue.
With that being said, it's not as though we're 100% decided, but if we were to just make this decision based upon what the council and other top players want right now, it would certainly be Gothitelle first.

For a more casual player of Ubers, this is a mon that you would probably only encounter on the ladder a few times at most, so you may not understand what the big deal about Gothitelle is. Sure, it has a really strong ability in Shadow Tag, but can it really compete with the Ubers titans? Well, for one, it absolutely can, and it has the most metagame impact of any mon in the tier for building. I am going to separate my main points into bullet points because I know this will become tl;dr for most people:

1.) Gothitelle usage is less than its potential due to it being seen as a cheap / boring mon to use.
I feel like this is an obvious point but it's something that needs to be stated. Sure, you can point to Goth's low winrate in Most Wanted, but it's total amount of usage was very low and out of a low sample size to begin with. I can state that for me personally I avoided using Gothitelle during the whole tournament out of my personal distaste for the mon, and I know TonyFlygon and at least some other users chose to do the same thing. For top level players, many recognize the deadly potential of Gothitelle and see using it as cheap. For usage on the ladder, of course Gothitelle's best set is it's PP stalling set, meaning that for practical uses it's basically impossible to ladder with that Gothitelle over a period of many games and not get bored to death.

Since some people have been mentioning it: how old gens Ubers decided to not ban Gothitelle is not relevant at all to this discussion. In the first place, those votes were very controversial to begin with, but as I said before, it bears no relevance to this discussion. Let the SS Ubers playerbase decide what it wants to do with SS Ubers. If I wanted to, I could point out that trapping is essentially banned from every other tier, and there is nothing special that would separate Ubers in this regard, but again, it's just the best to let the SS playerbase decide for itself.

2.) All counterplay to Gothitelle has to be done in the builder, which makes the tier more match-up dependent.
This is the biggest problem with Gothitelle. There really is extremely little available counterplay to Gothitelle, and while you can try to be smart and say that it's your fault for letting Gothitelle get in in the first place, I really think this is a bad take. Do you know how many 50/50s over the course of a game you would have to win to never let Gothitelle come in on one of your mons vulnerable to it? The Gothitelle user has to make a right prediction once and they are rewarded with a destroyed defensive core. As others have said, it's simply not competitive.

This is extremely noticeable with the current state of the tier, where powerful offensive mons basically have to force in a reactive check to it, such as Zacian-H or Xerneas forcing in Necrozma or Ho-Oh, Kyogre forcing in Etern, Groudon forcing in Tangrowth, Zekrom forcing in Ferrothorn, etc etc. This is even more of a problem when you consider that Gothitelle traps literally all of those defensive mons I've stated above, and more. These defensive mons are also basically mandatory on any team that is not a straight up HO, meaning that Gothitelle has an extremely good matchup against the vast majority of the tier. Sure, you could try to Goth-proof your entire team, but even that is not a defense against Gothitelle considering the ease of which Knock Off can be spammed. Not to mention, you have now just made your team worse against literally every other team that doesn't run Goth. Because of this, a lot of players simply make no effort to prepare for Goth and just hope they don't run into it.
Many players also will try to take half-measures and put some moveset changes in hope of deterring Goth, for example Dragon Tail Eternatus, but even many of these measures can easily be dealt with with a different Gothitelle set. Choice Specs for instance is extremely unexplored, and can basically deal with any Eternatus in the tier easily, and also work as a back-up cleric with Heal Bell as well as being able to Trick. Did you think HO is immune to Goth's shenanigans? Goth has a Choice Scarf set which can completely disable any HO lead with trick. It makes teambuilding a complete chore for minimal results if you chose to pay attention to Gothitelle, and if you simply ignore it, well then, I hope you got lucky with what you picked in builder!:blobshrug:

You can argue that there is a risk/reward assessment for nearly any aspect of a game, but the thing about Gothitelle is that, when you make games match-up dependent to this degree, and games are decided in the builder, playing the game itself inherently becomes uninteresting. When you are not deciding games by the plays you make, but entirely by what team you happened to choose, then you aren't playing a competitive game anymore, you are playing a game of rock paper scissors. Modern counterplay to Gothitelle essentially consists of hoping they don't have the Gothitelle that your team is vulnerable to.

3.) Gothitelle is effective. This also decreases variety in the tier.
I really don't like the argument that Gothitelle is not good at it's job. It's just simply false. For example,
Ropalme1914 said:
If we look at replays, what about this one: [Gen 8] Ubers replay: faint vs. Lopunny kicks - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
We see Gothitelle trapping Dugtrio after it had already defeated Eternatus, and when it came time to defeat a 50% HP paralyzed defensive Necrozma-DM with a Charm set...it simply lost. It wasn't even a Goth-tailored set with SD or something, it was a standard Knock Off one.
I am really surprised you chose this replay to highlight, because this is really a flawed analysis. For one, Gothitelle in this game as already trapped one Pokemon and eliminated it, meaning it has already done it's job. That Dugtrio could have proceeded to cockblock his Zacian for the rest of the game. Two, in this replay faint Charms the Necrozma-DM when Goth is at 13% HP, when he could have gone for Rest again and fish for more parahax. Three, this Gothitelle is likely a high speed variant, which still traps NDM, just not while hard switching into Knock Off with Stealth Rock up. Fourth, even with Gothitelle not eliminating Nec here, it still lands a charm on it letting Zacian-C set-up when it wouldn't have normally been able to.

Ropalme1914 said:
Goth's trapping capabilities also are being overblown here in my opinion: if you're phys def, you won't trap Eternatus if you come into Dynamax Cannon, even if it's defensive without Dragon Tail. If you're Sp. Def, you aren't trapping Necrozma-DM either with Knock Off avaliable, so you don't need to rely on SD for defensive variants directly either. Simply listing which Pokémon it traps without context also makes it seems far worse than it actually is - Rayquaza can also threaten basically every Pokémon on the tier, but you can't run a set with Dragon Ascent, V-Create, Earthquake, Draco Meteor, Extreme Speed, Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Life Orb, Focus Sash, etc. all on the same set.
You are right, it is unfair if lump in together all of the Gothitelle sets into one. So, let's just go down the VR and see which mons just the PP stalling set can trap, shall we?

Necrozma-DM
Eternatus lacking Dragon Tail (even this isn't foolproof due to dtail doing no damage)
Some Defensive Zygardes
Defensive Xerneas
Defensive Groudon lacking Dragon Tail
Defensive Ho-Oh
Ferrothorn lacking Bullet Seed (lol)
Blissey
Tyranitar without a strong dark move
Buzzwole lacking Lunge
Tangrowth
Skarmory
Lugia
Defensive Caly-Ice
Porygon-2
Gastrodon
Tapu Bulu
Heatran
Amoonguss
Even some variants of Yveltal lacking U-Turn/Taunt

Yeah, this is basically almost every defensive mon in the tier bar Lunala. This is not even to mention the side use Gothitelle has versus offensive Pokemon, which should not be ignored. Your Band Zacian-Hero locked itself into Close Combat to try and break through NDM? Yep, Gothitelle just eats it now.
Now about my point of Gothitelle eliminating variety in the tier. You know stall builds? Yeah, literally all of them lose to Gothitelle, if the above wasn't proof enough by itself. Additionally, you are going to be much more likely to use the higher tier mons, like Nec and Ho-Oh, that at least somewhat have a chance of being able to beat a Gothitelle in favorable conditions, than something on the lower part of the viability rankings, like say, Amoonguss. In contrast, I can't think of any lower-tier Pokemon being used just because they have a better Gothitelle match-up.

4.) This is a subjective point, but I feel it's important to bring up anyway: Gothitelle is supremely boring to use, especially the PP stall set.
Again. this is subjective and not as important as the other points, but I feel that the vast majority of players would agree with this.

I could keep going, but I think this a good place to stop for now. By the way, my instinct is to ban Shadow Tag and not Gothitelle itself, but either way is fine I think and it's not something we need to worry about in particular too much in my opinion.
 
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Trapping has not been banned in the history of Ubers; saying we should ban Shadow Tag based on past precedent in OU is not a good argument. Further, more of the Shadow Tag mons to be banned from OU have been by suspect test, whilst Mega Gengar was quickbanned, meaning its ban was more to do with MGar itself than the ability. This applies here; Wobbuffet is not broken, in fact it is a fun way of disincentivising banded Zac-H from getting a kill, therefore the problem is Gothitelle - it is easy enough to suspect both Gothitelle and Gothorita at once. The reason people use Blissey over Chansey is that Blissey holds an item other than Eviolite - which could be Shed Shell if you don't want to get trapped. If your only check to a mon running through your team is something that Goth traps, put a Shed Shell on it, or a phasing move, or fast taunt. Easier said than done, but building to deal with threats in the meta is part of the game. If doing this makes teams significantly weaker to other threats then there is an argument to get rid of Goth, but saying a mon is broken without mentioning counterplay to it and arguing why that counterplay is suboptimal makes for a poor argument.
I'll grant, OU is an entirely different metagame from Ubers, but still, this is no different than Dugtrio forcing the use of Shed Shell, which has no use if the opponent doesn't have a Gothitelle or other mon with Arena Trap or Shadow Tag. And even if people start using Shed Shells, they can be knocked off. Either way, I don't think it's okay to force the use of an item that is only useful if the opponent has Gothitelle or another trapper, and is useless otherwise, as one obviously won't see Gothitelle all the time. That's a massive opportunity cost to incur when I could have instead used something like Heavy-Duty Boots, which always help. Also, most of the other counterplay to this can be stopped cold by Taunt. RE: Mega Gengar, it was banned for other reasons, sure, but Shadow Tag sure as hell didn't help. Back to Gothitelle, is it broken without Shadow Tag? I'd think not.
Eternatus lacking Dragon Tail (even this isn't foolproof due to dtail doing no damage)
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Dragon Tail won't work if there's a sub up, right? And as Dragon Tail has negative priority... yeah. Even if they don't have it, the fact it doesn't have 100 accuracy doesn't help.
 
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I think that by "stag" he meant "Shadow Tag", not Xerneas.
Not sure about Shadow Tag itself, Wobuffet is much worse than Gothitelle due to lacking Cosmic Power, Confide, Stored Power, Taunt and Trick. I feel like not all trappers would be as effective as Gothitelle, as Goth has the perfect movepool to abuse it's ability. This is basically same as Speed Boost, Blaziken was the only mon who had the necessary stats/movepool to abuse it.

I wouldn't even mind if it's quick banned, we all know how nasty it is and the outcome is inevitable.
 
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Bro this is worse than the don't ban zacian arguments you've made.
You personally attack me and you have no interest in discussing my proposal charitably. I don't care if it's less or more persuasive for you. The only reason that I have platformed your post is because I want to point out how fundamentally dishonest your arguments are.
My opp just sent in an SD Zacian and dusk mane is the one mon who can handle it? But whoops, he just doubled into goth, time to lose!
This is exactly what I meant by bad sequence. You could have attacked the obvious Gothitelle double, doubled your sweeper in, or make literally any other play that take advantage of Gothitelle but you didn't. You deserve to lose there. If you had attacked, the Gothitelle would be useless and can't trap NDM anymore. It was a high risk and high reward play for Zacian Goth user. Sorry that you have to balance risk and reward to make plays to tilt chance of winning in your favor. :(

Scarf Ogre is in on the ho-oh ready to claim a body? Well this goth just claimed eternatus/blissey and now this is easier than a kirby game.
This groudon is really hard to switch into! Thank god i have my rest haze zygarde- oh nvm no i dont.
Gothitelle can't trap Eternatus with Dragon tail nor offensive Eternatus. Even then, Eternatus can actually pp stall Gothitelle's Taunts and get out of situation alive. Yes, Gothitelle can beat Eternatus situationally. Gothitelle should never ever trap Blissey. It can Stoss and Teleport or parahax and Teleport or Toxic to force Rest then Teleport. It also can use Shed shell but I think that Teleport is a Great Move on Blissey that Should Be Used. Please educate yourself before making unasserted claim that Gothitelle and Scarf Kyogre core works because it doesn't.

Man if only i can remove this guys phys def xerneas, then my marshadow can go brazy!! Oh, oh i can? for free? oh im gonna eat GOOD today.
Is it possible for someone to use SpD Gothitelle to specifically trap Marsh check Phys def Xerneas. Sure. Keep in mind, I've literally never seen this strategy in any of high level games. Maybe it's used, not used. I don't know. Phys def xern is an exceedingly rare set that relies on match up of Zygarde and Marshadow to be useful. It's an inherently volatile strategy and if you brought Gothitelle to neutralize this extremely rare match up. Then, as I see it, it's a competitive teambuilding and evolving metagame occurring. Also, it's not free... Marsh Gothitelle core is nowhere close to being good in this gen as USUM. Zacian RK's Marsh and Gothitelle with extreme success. Stop being dramatic and keep your arguments grounded in the reality rather than imaginary theorymon.

Speaking of the 5v6 thing you said. It's nowhere near 5v6 when the opp simply cannot send in certain pokemon because goth can come in and control z the mon out your builder. If you find your gothitelle losing often to the pokemon you try to trap either you have terrible luck or you suck at using goth.
You can control how anti-Gothitelle you want to be in builder. It's two way street. You should be punished if you elect to make yourself Gothitelle weak. Your argument is functionally equivalent to complaining that you lost to a Scarf Kyogre because you didn't have any Kyogre check on your team. In fact, building against Gothitelle is far less restricting than countering powerful pokemon such as Kyogre because all it takes to Goth proof yourself is maximum of one slot on your Gothitelle weak pokemon. You also can make doubles or simply attacking Gothitelle double to neutralize it.

In fact, this clearly demonstrate that Gothitelle is competitive. You make interesting choices in builder and battle to beat it. If you find yourself losing to Gothitelle often, then I suggest that you spend your time getting better at this game rather than litigating your weaknesses away.

Also how in the world do you be like "man stored power sets are HEATER, we gotta keep those!" but suggest to just remove the entire reason stored power functions as a move- boosting.
You still can boost with my proposal. Stored power is an attacking move and you'd be free to use any other three moves such as Calm mind, Cosmic power, Power-Up-Punch, Nasty plot, and so on. You obviously did not read my post and attacked my idea without any shred of thought and charity.

"man if you mess up with goth its 5v6" ...it's the exact same on the other side man.
"brooo i don't have scope lens night slash on my Necrozma i can like never send it in bro helpppp... oh i'm forced to go into it huh? ah fine, he won't go goth. Oh. he went goth huh. Well boys it's been fun, tell my momma i love her, but it's OVER"
Incoherent mess here. Well yeah, it's two way street. You're agreeing to what I'm saying. Scope lens Night slash NDM is an obvious exaggeration with no basis in the reality. There are many viable sets that NDM can use to guarantee defeating Gothitelle. It's not my problem that you elect to use RNG prone NDM set to fish hax against Gothitelle as your strategy. I use far better NDM sets and I win more games than you do because of it. It's that simple.

Come on dawg, if you can't use status moves on Gothitelle, you got the Gothorita that can do the same thing. I understand complex bans, but even if you use specs it can do THE SAME THING, and its still just as toxic, no Brittany.
Just say you don't want to ban any single thing in the tier because it's Ubers.
Fair enough about Gothorita, my proposal can be expanded to include Gothorita trivially. I literally suggested banning Gothitelle with no attacking move and you say that I'm anti-ban? You're just lying and attacking my perspective without any shred of charity.

Just for emphasis: I am all for crafting a proposal that eliminates mind-numbing Gothitelle/Gothorita PP stall sets as that I believe this is where most of resentment against Gothitelle/Gothorita comes from. In Pre-DLC meta, Trick Gothitelle was the most popular set and most of high level players thought that it was a fun and interesting metagame to play. So, the problem is clearly not Gothitelle/Gothorita as a whole.
 
:gothitelle:
Goth is just too broken and uncompetitive to be allowed in any tier even under Uber's more complex criteria for justifying a ban. There are just too many threats (defensive in particular) that can be be trapped and taken advantage of by Goth in order to support its offensive teammates and guarantee more opportunities to sweep late-game. While other factors of the metagame (mainly Calyrex-S, Kyogre, and Zacian-H) may already cause a strain on teambuilding, this allows Goth to strive and take advantage of their certain checks (ie: Necrozma-DM, Eternatus, and Blissey to name a few), and enables these offensive threats to perform their role a bit too well with little drawback if piloted properly. Counterplay may exist via items like Shed Shell and common checks like Calyrex-S and Yveltal do force Goth out for sure, but the Goth player is always left at a significant advantage and can skew gameplay to an unhealthy degree.

Whether we choose to suspect Goth or Shadow Tag is a bit more specific topic to discuss and I would be fine with either or, but for now I think it is clearly evident to any seasonal Uber's player that is in tune with the current metagame that Goth is way too powerful at this current stage and may just make the metagame worse if it remains legal for any longer.
 
It seems to me that STag is the obvious candidate for a ban here rather than Gothitelle, not least on the basis of the cascading ban issue. Gothitelle would be banned from all lower tiers, none of which it's problematic or even good in, on the power of a set that was already independently banned in those tiers. It seems extremely counterintuitive to ban something from lower tiers in order to preserve an element in Ubers that those lower tiers have deemed broken and which is very obviously the actual problem here.
 
STAG is obviously not the issue. There is zero reason to think that STAG as a whole is an issue. The issue is PP stall Goth(s).
 
STAG is obviously not the issue. There is zero reason to think that STAG as a whole is an issue. The issue is PP stall Goth(s).
Bullshit. Shadow Tag is one of those things where people WILL find ways to abuse in degenerate ways. I would draw parallels to Gen 6 Swagger. While Prankster was the enabler for Swagger to cause a lot of grief, Swagger was ultimately singled out for a ban. Why? Because it was the root of the problem.

Gothitelle can't trap Eternatus with Dragon tail nor offensive Eternatus. Even then, Eternatus can actually pp stall Gothitelle's Taunts and get out of situation alive. Yes, Gothitelle can beat Eternatus situationally. Gothitelle should never ever trap Blissey. It can Stoss and Teleport or parahax and Teleport or Toxic to force Rest then Teleport. It also can use Shed shell but I think that Teleport is a Great Move on Blissey that Should Be Used. Please educate yourself before making unasserted claim that Gothitelle and Scarf Kyogre core works because it doesn't.
Problem: Dragon Tail has negative priority, doesn't have 100 accuracy, and is blocked by Substitute. Teleport is stopped dead in its tracks by Taunt, and last I checked, Gothitelle is faster than Blissey.
 

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