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Tauros's Speed tier advantage is not that notable when Jolly Slaking beats Modest Lati and it lacks the special bulk to take a hit from them if it does lose the tie:

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tauros: 263-310 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

You need 80 HP EVs to take this hit from full, and even then it's still a likely KO after Spikes. Tauros also cannot OHKO Latios without resorting to Double-Edge, so even if it tanks it'll die to recoil damage. Keep in mind that Tauros also has to compete with CB Snorlax, which has better Attack, Selfdestruct, and considerable bulk.

I contend that Dodrio is better than Tauros. Reasons why:

-Dodrio has better Attack and still outruns Modest Lati@s with Jolly.
-STAB Drill Peck gives Dodrio a strong attack to use against Ghosts and maintains strong neutral coverage while not being weak like HP Ghost.
-Dodrio is immune to Spikes, which is a notable advantage when your primary attack is Double-Edge.
-Dodrio is immune to Earthquake, which somewhat makes up for the lack of Intimidate. This also allows Dodrio to wall EQ/HP Ghost Groudon, which is a notable defensive niche.
-Dodrio has access to a priority move (Quick Attack), which grants it some revenge killing utility, most notably against Deoxys-A.

Dodrio's main disadvantages are lack of Earthquake (has to resort to HP Ground, higher Attack partially compensates) and lack of Intimidate. Tauros's lack of weaknesses to Ice and Electric aren't very notable since it has trash special bulk, and Intimidate is only situationally useful on Tauros since it doesn't really want to switch into the most notable physical threats anyway: Groudon and Snorlax threaten paralysis, Metagross is unaffected, Ho-Oh threatens burns and has a chance to 2HKO with -1 CB HP Flying anyway, CB Steelix still has a chance to 2HKO with EQ... I can't think of any reason to use Tauros on a serious team when it competes with Lugia, Snorlax, Slaking, and even Dodrio as a CB User. If you really want to rank a kinda gimmicky CB Normal, I would sooner use Dodrio than Tauros.
 
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Was gen 5 Excadrill OU or Uber? Its page says OU but it also doesn't have an OU analysis, just an Uber one.
It was an Uber for the time BW2 was active but it was unbanned in recent years (under a similar restriction to Aldaron's Proposal). This is probably the reason it doesn't have an analysis. Excadrill is an amazing pkmn in BW2 Ubers regardless

Changes in BW2 ranks:
  • Dialga to S rank. Takes the fourth spot. I moved Genesect to the 3rd spot due to vocal concerns. Kyogre remains #1.
  • Arceus-Steel to A rank. It is honestly probably the late-game sweeper in the tier and its checks, while common, are less functional in a last mon scenario (Roar Kyogre). Placing it below Ferrothorn.
Further discussion needed: Arceus-Grass and Water.

Changes in ADV ranks:
  • Everything Mags said except the Kabu/Qwil stuff.
Further discussion needed: The Kabu/Qwil stuff. Minority hasn't been very clear on where to put the mons.

Some DPP noms

Tyranitar: A- to A

Ttar is one of the best rock setters in both the lead role and with lefties in the back. Serves as an emergency check to rain, special sponge and can be used with a choice item and pursuit to remove latis.

Forretress: A to B+

Has an extremely hard time spinning but is still useful for forcing in the tina and getting layers up. Outclassed by the other A rank mons.

Blissey: A to A-

Useful on stall but usually setup/spike fodder.

Skarmory: B+ to A-

Great dragon sponge and the best spike setter bar deoxys-s. Able to check a lot of the top threats in the metagame given the correct conditions: checks hp fire latis in rain and thunder latis (to an extent) in sun.

Bronzong: B to A-

Excellent SR setter and momentum machine, you can run almost anything in the other 3 slots, endure, earthquake, gyro ball, explosion, payback, toxic, protect, grass knot, hypnosis, trick room, screens, trick. One of the most splashable mons on any team.

Scizor: A to A-

Scizor isn’t what it once was. The band set is far too frail and a gamble every time it comes in on a dragon, since everything gets fire coverage. However the swords dance, choice scarf and lead sets all have their niches and banded scizor puts in huge work on rain teams.

Kabutops: C+ to A-

Hands down the best weather (speed) abuser, there is not much reason to use any other swift swim mon over this.

Lugia: B+ to A-

The physdef reflect set imo is not great anymore since swords dance/dragon dance ray/groudon are not seen as often anymore. However subcm, two attacks cm and sub pressure stall are all incredibly annoying to deal with.

Deoxys: B- to C

No real reason to use this.

Quagsire: C- to B-

Pretty standard on stall, encore is broken as fuck in this gen.

Metagross: B- to C+

Haven’t had much success with this mon, but I can see it as a decent lead or pursuit trapper. Definitely doesn’t deserve B rank tho.

Tentacruel: C+ to B

Best tspikes setter.

Qwilfish: C+ to C-

Intimidate is cool but I would never use this over tentacruel since it has a worse matchup versus most leads.

Salamence:C+ to C

It can work as a scarf mon but imo has less of a niche than the other C+s, for example heracross gets to have guts sleep talk for darkrai, and froslass and cloyster each have good antilead tools.

Abomasnow:C to C+

This thing is a cooler version of ludicolo. Leech seed + hail + protect + ice shard means that anything that kyogre switches to is going to take around 40 if it wants to kill Abomasnow. Also ice type priority never hurts.

Cresselia: C to C+

I use this occasionally if I have a big groudon weakness or want a different cm user. Can also function as a trick room/gravity (lol) setter. Overall much better than celebi, omastar, jumpluff etc.

Gengar: C to C-

Froslass without spikes. You can maybe cheese some stuff with dbond/and coverage.

Deoxys-D: C to C-

No reason to use this.

Victreebel: D to B-/C+

Best sun sweeper IMO, hits way harder than shiftry, hits the benchmark of scarf 100s, puts its checks to sleep 75% of the time, and has almost perfect coverage with solarbeam/weatherball/sucker punch for lati@s/giratinas. I might be biased since I’ve been having a lot of fun with this, which is why I have slashed C+.

Ds to C-

Dugtrio, Ninjask, Shedinja, Snorlax, Weavile

All usable but have very small niches

C-s to D rank

Azelf, Gyara, Uxie

Unusable IMO
I agree with Ttar, Blissey, Skarm, Zong, Scizor, Lugia, Tenta. I disagree with Forretress, Kabutops and Metagross in particular. Here is why:

Forretress is despite the fact that spinning hard, a mon with both Toxic Spikes and Spikes that serves outside the lead role. This is impactful because common mons like Jirachi, Bronzong, Skarmory (without taunt) let Forretress spikes stack effortlessly. It shouldn't move below A- imo.

Kabutops seems threatening and all, and sure C+ is way to low but A- is just too high. In BW2, Kabutops gains more defensive utilities in being able to revenge kill some Arceus formes (in general, it threatens most bar Water and Grass to a high degree). It also differentiates it from swimmers like Kingdra because it can hurt Ferrothorn in that tier. In DPP, I always found that the usage of its best checks (Groudon, Rayquaza, Giratina-O) must be higher than in BW2 as well. It feels worse in DPP in general, but I have no problem moving it up into B territory.

Metagross is pretty useful. Lead sets with Lum Berry limits Deo-S to SR and doesn't lose to Darkrai, which is a major accomplishment in the tier. Scarf set is like a Jirachi without the ability revenge kill DD Ray. But with Explosion and a strong EQ+Mash it is much harder to wall. It gets Trick as well. Occa RP can also be somewhat decent of a late game mon.

I don't have strong opinions on the other mons due to lack of experience, so those are points for further discussion.
 
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snorlax and weavile are awful and unusable as is dugtrio and most of the time ninjask. Shedinja is 20x better than those mons. qwilfish doesn't get intimidate so i guess youve never used it. abomasnow is not a better or figuratively cooler ludicolo because it is sr weak and cannot take fire moves. gyarados is 30x bettter than all of those mons. salamence can DD meaning it is better than just scarfer, wisher, mixer.

theres a million of other things that can go up or down but im not going to touch on them.
 
snorlax and weavile are awful and unusable as is dugtrio and most of the time ninjask. Shedinja is 20x better than those mons. qwilfish doesn't get intimidate so i guess youve never used it. abomasnow is not a better or figuratively cooler ludicolo because it is sr weak and cannot take fire moves. gyarados is 30x bettter than all of those mons. salamence can DD meaning it is better than just scarfer, wisher, mixer.

theres a million of other things that can go up or down but im not going to touch on them.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the Ubers metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in Ubers. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Whilst Snorlax and Weavile aren't good by any stretch of the imagination, they do have notable niches.

Snorlax is Lati@s' worst nightmare, whilst setting up and often breaking any team without a Giratina forme. It can also serve as an emergency check to basically any special attacker and fire off a selfdestruct when it gets low. Obviously you need a large amount of team support given how common Giratina-O is, but IMO Snorlax is worth considering if your team needs a dragon breaker but Jirachi doesn't fit.

Weavile on the other hand, is pretty garbage, but I think it deserves a mention anyway. Life orb Weavile forces a lot of switches with ice punch, low kick and ice shard, and pursuit traps Lati@s. Sure band/scarf ttar can also pursuit trap and still have coverage with superpower, but some teams do not appreciate sand, or need extra garchomp/rayquaza insurance, I don't really have a preference between C- and D for this poke, but I haven't seen it discussed before so its good to get some other players' opinions.

Dugtrio I honestly think is pretty awesome. Adamant band just melts shit, and I think it should be a staple on sun offenses. With some aggressive switching you can either chunk or eliminate several pokemon in certain matchups. For example: your lead KOs the opponents lead, they bring in their revenge killer, lets say it is an offensive Kyogre set with > 243 speed revenging your broken sash ttar. You can either let ttar die and bring in a soft check, or go straight out to a harder check like Latias, it doesn't really matter. Once your check is on Kyogre it is a safe bet that they will bring out their support dialga/jirachi/other rocker now and if you manage to catch it with Dugtrio, you either net a free kill or keep rocks off for the whole game. Now Dugtrio can be saved to revenge kill or chunk for 60% stuff like haban Palkia, non scarf Garchomp or specs Kyogre later in the game. Since I haven't seen much scarf Kyogre lately, often you can keep sun up very easily once you get any damage at all on Kyogre. Again, this is a very niche situation that you would be using Dugtrio in, but definitely a reason to give Dugtrio C-.

I agree Ninjask is pretty useless, and probably inferior to mew as a baton passer, so it should probably stay D.

Yeah my mistake, I knew Qwilfish had a semi-useful ability for a saved low-hp lead later in the game, but got mixed up.

On Abomasnow, it has a lot of advantages over Ludicolo that make up for its SR weakness. Ice-type priority, emergency stopping things like Kabutops and Chlorophyll users, and of course hail chip which is tons better than sand chip on a semi-stall build, due to the prevalence of steel types in the tier. For example, while I usually have trouble killing Heatran with semi-stall builds, if I can get hail up, Heatran has a permanently limited number of switch ins.

I'd love know how you have been getting Gyarados to work, I can't currently comment having never used it. I'm also not sure how Salamence gets off dragon dances or wish passes, but I haven't tried these sets out either. Could you shed some light on the team support / sets situations in which you would use these sets - if anyone can pull them off on a build it would be you.


 
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Manaphy

POCARI SWEAT
is a Tiering Contributor
just an old player passing by to give away some teams


Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb / Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Thunder
- Dark Void
- Nasty Plot

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed

Wobbuffet @ Custap Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 80 HP / 176 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish
- Sleep Talk / Swords Dance

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Force
- Brick Break
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed

I'm not nearly as familiar with the ORAS meta as I am with the past tiers, but I think this team is pretty decent. Don't look down on it just because it doesn't have a mega. It's a pretty typical HO team but this specific combination of mons has a lot of back-up options to things in case shit goes down; there's two priority users to take down low HP stuff, sashed Darkrai which can stop something that could potentially sweep you, and a Custap Wobb. Wobb is also really good, and he helps to minimize the amount of predictions you have to do. With Pdon he lets you beat Xerneas pretty comfortably, and Ghostceus helps check Ekiller too. Exca + Darkrai is a really good lead combination that beats most things, I put Sleep Talk on Pdon as a surprise move vs offensive teams, so the lead match-up vs Darkrai is a lot more manageable, but you can put Swords Dance on there if you want a better stall match-up. Besides that, Deo-A/ This team is really fun to play since you can basically just hit things like normal HO but also have a lot of gimmicks to rely upon. I actually made a whole RMT for this team but never got around to posting it lol



Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Scald

Dialga @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Body Slam
- Protect

Arceus (Arceus-Grass) @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 72 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Shadow Sneak
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin
- Low Kick

This team utilizes a Jirachi/Arceus-Grass core which let's the team wall a bunch of things that's pretty hard to otherwise. Jirachi is fun to use with Specs Ogre since Jirachi can spread para and Wish pass, as well as come directly into Lati@s and what have you that like to switch in on Specs Ogre. Kabutops really shines here as a revenge killer/sweeper/spinner/Arceus-Normal check. Arceus-Grass can sweep pretty easily and is a great check Kyogre/Palkia. I haven't played BW2 that often recently so I can't comment on how well it would do nowadays, but back in the day this team was very effective.


here are some of my BW1 teams, which existed before Soul Dew and Genesect were things, I've tried them out against a few players recently and they still do pretty decently to my surprise.


Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 72 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Surf

Dialga @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 56 SpA / 200 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Toxic

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The team above this one was originally this team, but modified for the BW2 metagame. Well, this team here was extremely effective for me when BW1 was the meta. The highlight for me is Gliscor, he can come in and screw over a bunch of mons like Forretress/Ferrothorn/Giratina etc. Besides that, it was pretty much what was standard Rain Balance at the time.


the following might be one of the most well-known Ubers teams of all time. As of writing this, it has nearly 16,000 views on the PO Forums

Giratina-O (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Shadow Sneak
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Thunder Wave / Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance
- Recover

Dialga @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Aura Sphere

Manaphy @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Grass Knot / Ice Beam
- Tail Glow
- Rest


A lot of you probably recognize this team. At least from my experience, this team has been surprisingly good to this day. Manaphy can destroy a ton of teams because they're unprepared for it; being able to boost extremely quickly and Rest off any status or damage, Manaphy can really get rolling once Kyogre/Ferrothorn start luring things in and paralyzing them. Arceus-Normal is great too; I was one of the first people I knew to use the bulky max HP set with Recover, and it can really do wonders. Even modern teams with Arceus-Fighting/Ferro cores can lose to Arceus-Normal by itself, since at +2 he can 2HKO Arceus-Fighting and live through Judgement, while Ferrothorn itself can't really do much to Arceus besides Leech Seed and Spike up. I've won many games from people simply thinking they can stay with their paralyzed Ferrothorn once they learn I have Recover, only for me to boost up to +6 and either power through Ferro with paras or PP stall out Gyro Ball. Kyogre's a great mon to spread paralysis around which helps with Manaphy and Arceus-Normal to sweep. Mix Giratina-O is a early BW staple and he can still generally surprises people by throwing out Draco Meteors and then Outrages. Scarf Dialga was the mon I used as a way to revenge kill Arceus-Normals, and he also is used as a great surprise Pokemon that's also fairly bulky. This team doesn't have a spinner so your best bet is to apply pressure through the opponent's core as soon as possible. This team could probably be updated to have a spinner or replace Dialga and such, but this is what the classic set-up was.


some of the speed creep and set EV's were changed around, just use your common sense for that

the viability rankings look pretty good, honestly it's a bit pedantic to debate over stuff like Arceus-Grass being A- or B+. However Manaphy should unironically be higher than C- IMO
 

Foggi

Banned deucer.
here are some dpp/adv stuff i made back in upl for some friends, someone may find them useful cause they are overall solid and pretty fun/easy to use

DPP



Kyogre @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Magnezone @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave
- Metal Sound

Garchomp (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Giratina (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Thunder
- Roost

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Atk / 232 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Payback
- Explosion
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock





Tentacruel @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Icy Wind
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes

Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Aura Sphere
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Thunder
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Grass Knot

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 132 Def / 36 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 208 HP / 84 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Roost




Bronzong @ Lum Berry
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock

Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Roar of Time
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder

Palkia @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Spacial Rend
- Trick Room
- Thunder
- Fire Blast

Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Explosion

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Trick
- Ice Punch
- U-turn

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 212 Atk / 160 Def / 8 SpD / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earthquake




Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Grass Knot

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Thunder
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 220 Atk / 160 Def / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earthquake

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Rapid Spin
- Low Kick

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- Swords Dance


ADV



Mewtwo @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Self-Destruct

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind

Omastar @ Mystic Water
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Spikes

Snorlax @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
- Self-Destruct

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Deoxys-Attack @ Spell Tag
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Shadow Ball
- Extreme Speed
- Rock Slide




Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Shadow Ball
- Return
- Focus Punch

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 188 HP / 160 Atk / 160 SpA
Brave Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Explosion

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Claw
- Recover
- Refresh

Groudon @ Salac Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
 
Tauros's Speed tier advantage is not that notable when Jolly Slaking beats Modest Lati and it lacks the special bulk to take a hit from them if it does lose the tie:

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tauros: 263-310 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

You need 80 HP EVs to take this hit from full, and even then it's still a likely KO after Spikes. Tauros also cannot OHKO Latios without resorting to Double-Edge, so even if it tanks it'll die to recoil damage. Keep in mind that Tauros also has to compete with CB Snorlax, which has better Attack, Selfdestruct, and considerable bulk.

I contend that Dodrio is better than Tauros. Reasons why:

-Dodrio has better Attack and still outruns Modest Lati@s with Jolly.
-STAB Drill Peck gives Dodrio a strong attack to use against Ghosts and maintains strong neutral coverage while not being weak like HP Ghost.
-Dodrio is immune to Spikes, which is a notable advantage when your primary attack is Double-Edge.
-Dodrio is immune to Earthquake, which somewhat makes up for the lack of Intimidate. This also allows Dodrio to wall EQ/HP Ghost Groudon, which is a notable defensive niche.
-Dodrio has access to a priority move (Quick Attack), which grants it some revenge killing utility, most notably against Deoxys-A.

Dodrio's main disadvantages are lack of Earthquake (has to resort to HP Ground, higher Attack partially compensates) and lack of Intimidate. Tauros's lack of weaknesses to Ice and Electric aren't very notable since it has trash special bulk, and Intimidate is only situationally useful on Tauros since it doesn't really want to switch into the most notable physical threats anyway: Groudon and Snorlax threaten paralysis, Metagross is unaffected, Ho-Oh threatens burns and has a chance to 2HKO with -1 CB HP Flying anyway, CB Steelix still has a chance to 2HKO with EQ... I can't think of any reason to use Tauros on a serious team when it competes with Lugia, Snorlax, Slaking, and even Dodrio as a CB User. If you really want to rank a kinda gimmicky CB Normal, I would sooner use Dodrio than Tauros.
Ok, I'm not sure if Tauros is entirely outclassed, though. Being able to at the very least speed tie Latios in any scenario seems like a huge advantage tbh. And I wouldn't count out Intimidate in every situation. Sure, Tauros hates the most common physical attackers in the tier (Groudon, Deoxys-A), but it doesn't exactly fare poorly vs most others. Having access to EQ is very notable, as evident by these calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 219-258 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 163-192 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 144-170 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 273-322 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 205-242 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Tauros does always 2hko common defensive steels. While Dodrio has access to the more spammable Drill Peck, HP Ghost from Tauros still gets by Gengar fine. I have almost no experience with these two mons and I can't say I would recommend them for much serious stuff but on paper, Tauros seems marginally better to me.

here are some dpp/adv stuff i made back in upl for some friends, someone may find them useful cause they are overall solid and pretty fun/easy to use

DPP



Kyogre @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Magnezone @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave
- Metal Sound

Garchomp (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Giratina (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Thunder
- Roost

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Atk / 232 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Payback
- Explosion
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock





Tentacruel @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Icy Wind
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes

Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Aura Sphere
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Thunder
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Grass Knot

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 132 Def / 36 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 208 HP / 84 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Roost




Bronzong @ Lum Berry
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock

Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Roar of Time
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder

Palkia @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Spacial Rend
- Trick Room
- Thunder
- Fire Blast

Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Explosion

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Trick
- Ice Punch
- U-turn

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 212 Atk / 160 Def / 8 SpD / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earthquake




Dialga @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Grass Knot

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Thunder
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 220 Atk / 160 Def / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earthquake

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Rapid Spin
- Low Kick

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- Swords Dance


ADV



Mewtwo @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Self-Destruct

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind

Omastar @ Mystic Water
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Spikes

Snorlax @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
- Self-Destruct

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Deoxys-Attack @ Spell Tag
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Shadow Ball
- Extreme Speed
- Rock Slide




Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Shadow Ball
- Return
- Focus Punch

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 188 HP / 160 Atk / 160 SpA
Brave Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Explosion

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Claw
- Recover
- Refresh

Groudon @ Salac Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
I find a few of the DPP teams interesting, in particular the first team, so I will add that unless people object. My only qualm with it are some sets (Magnezone with HP Fire irks me, as the team would appreciate HP Ground to hurt Dialga a lot more). I would also love to see OTR Zong with Mag but I guess that's for another team. As for the ADV teams, I find it every non (CM) Blissey team needs 2 Lati answers in this tier. In particular both teams are extremely weak to boltbeam Latis.

just an old player passing by to give away some teams


Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb / Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Thunder
- Dark Void
- Nasty Plot

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed

Wobbuffet @ Custap Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 80 HP / 176 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish
- Sleep Talk / Swords Dance

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Force
- Brick Break
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed

I'm not nearly as familiar with the ORAS meta as I am with the past tiers, but I think this team is pretty decent. Don't look down on it just because it doesn't have a mega. It's a pretty typical HO team but this specific combination of mons has a lot of back-up options to things in case shit goes down; there's two priority users to take down low HP stuff, sashed Darkrai which can stop something that could potentially sweep you, and a Custap Wobb. Wobb is also really good, and he helps to minimize the amount of predictions you have to do. With Pdon he lets you beat Xerneas pretty comfortably, and Ghostceus helps check Ekiller too. Exca + Darkrai is a really good lead combination that beats most things, I put Sleep Talk on Pdon as a surprise move vs offensive teams, so the lead match-up vs Darkrai is a lot more manageable, but you can put Swords Dance on there if you want a better stall match-up. Besides that, Deo-A/ This team is really fun to play since you can basically just hit things like normal HO but also have a lot of gimmicks to rely upon. I actually made a whole RMT for this team but never got around to posting it lol



Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Scald

Dialga @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Body Slam
- Protect

Arceus (Arceus-Grass) @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 72 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Shadow Sneak
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin
- Low Kick

This team utilizes a Jirachi/Arceus-Grass core which let's the team wall a bunch of things that's pretty hard to otherwise. Jirachi is fun to use with Specs Ogre since Jirachi can spread para and Wish pass, as well as come directly into Lati@s and what have you that like to switch in on Specs Ogre. Kabutops really shines here as a revenge killer/sweeper/spinner/Arceus-Normal check. Arceus-Grass can sweep pretty easily and is a great check Kyogre/Palkia. I haven't played BW2 that often recently so I can't comment on how well it would do nowadays, but back in the day this team was very effective.


here are some of my BW1 teams, which existed before Soul Dew and Genesect were things, I've tried them out against a few players recently and they still do pretty decently to my surprise.


Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 72 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Surf

Dialga @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 56 SpA / 200 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Toxic

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The team above this one was originally this team, but modified for the BW2 metagame. Well, this team here was extremely effective for me when BW1 was the meta. The highlight for me is Gliscor, he can come in and screw over a bunch of mons like Forretress/Ferrothorn/Giratina etc. Besides that, it was pretty much what was standard Rain Balance at the time.


the following might be one of the most well-known Ubers teams of all time. As of writing this, it has nearly 16,000 views on the PO Forums

Giratina-O (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Shadow Sneak
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Thunder Wave / Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Arceus @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance
- Recover

Dialga @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Aura Sphere

Manaphy @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Grass Knot / Ice Beam
- Tail Glow
- Rest


A lot of you probably recognize this team. At least from my experience, this team has been surprisingly good to this day. Manaphy can destroy a ton of teams because they're unprepared for it; being able to boost extremely quickly and Rest off any status or damage, Manaphy can really get rolling once Kyogre/Ferrothorn start luring things in and paralyzing them. Arceus-Normal is great too; I was one of the first people I knew to use the bulky max HP set with Recover, and it can really do wonders. Even modern teams with Arceus-Fighting/Ferro cores can lose to Arceus-Normal by itself, since at +2 he can 2HKO Arceus-Fighting and live through Judgement, while Ferrothorn itself can't really do much to Arceus besides Leech Seed and Spike up. I've won many games from people simply thinking they can stay with their paralyzed Ferrothorn once they learn I have Recover, only for me to boost up to +6 and either power through Ferro with paras or PP stall out Gyro Ball. Kyogre's a great mon to spread paralysis around which helps with Manaphy and Arceus-Normal to sweep. Mix Giratina-O is a early BW staple and he can still generally surprises people by throwing out Draco Meteors and then Outrages. Scarf Dialga was the mon I used as a way to revenge kill Arceus-Normals, and he also is used as a great surprise Pokemon that's also fairly bulky. This team doesn't have a spinner so your best bet is to apply pressure through the opponent's core as soon as possible. This team could probably be updated to have a spinner or replace Dialga and such, but this is what the classic set-up was.


some of the speed creep and set EV's were changed around, just use your common sense for that

the viability rankings look pretty good, honestly it's a bit pedantic to debate over stuff like Arceus-Grass being A- or B+. However Manaphy should unironically be higher than C- IMO
These are interesting teams, and it is always nice to see people providing a picture of earlier times. I always found the Grassceus/Rachi team seriously weak to sun, however. Even if Dialga gets up SR, Ho-oh can easily Roost on Arceus-Grass, Jirachi and Dialga itself. It is a strong option against most rain offensive in the tier, though, as Rachi/Grassceus/Giratina-O tend to shut down every non-Rayquaza rain offense. I'm not sure if I should add this, it would be nice with more discussion to gain more perspectives but yeah that's how I see it.

BW


Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 76 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed
- Spikes

Dialga @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Trick Room

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 212 Atk / 252 Def / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Shadow Sneak
- Magic Coat
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Trick Room

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Bug Buzz
- Sleep Talk

Groudon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance

- Deoxys works well against most leads, the exception being Custap Forretress and Froslass, if you see those potential leads lead with Giratina, Magic Coat + Hidden Power Fire works really well in those scenarios.

- Genesect is mostly a Dark Void and Draco Meteor depot, while it still can flinch Arceus-Ghost and whatnot its primary job is to 100% check Darkrai and die from Latios' Draco Meteor so Dialga can set up Trick Room.

- If you are worried about stall, fear not, Stealth Rock SD Groudon under Trick Room should catch most people by surprise, a +2 Groudon with some assistance from Thunder Dialga should be able to demolish stall teams, Chansey-less stalls just get eaten alive by Palkia.

- Lastly, on how to deal with Arceus-Ghost: Arceus-Ghost barely has any chance to set up CM, however, if the unfavorable happens, try to set up TR with Dialga in the turn they Focus Blast fearing Roar, then, Fire Blast if under Sun or Draco Meteor as they take you out with the second Focus Blast or Judgment, after Dialga is dies go to Groudon posthaste and SD (it lives a +1 Judgment even from 252 Sp.Atk with the current EV spread), that should force out the Arceus and you might even get a countersweep from it.

252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in Sun: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in Sun: 262-309 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost in Rain: 367-433 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 204-244 (57.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia in Rain: 297-351 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh in Sun: 198-234 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Palkia: 322-379 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in Sun: 341-402 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 398-468 (98.5 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 309-367 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost in Sun: 265-313 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 286-338 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 237-281 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Giratina-Origin Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 212-252 (60.2 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Giratina-Origin Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in Sun: 316-372 (89.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

This is my favorite team in all of my time playing BW2 Ubers, I made it 2 years ago and I've been using it ever since. As I don't play very often anymore I decided it was time to finally share it. It's a really good team and I hope you have fun using it.
This team is fun and pretty good, I have used it a bit myself. However, it is seriously Arceus-Ghost weak and that's just a fact.

You say Arceus has few chances to CM vs this team but I find this to not be the case for the most part. In a 1v1 situation, it will CM on Palkia (in sun) and Dialga and proceed to recover stall TR turns. It can also nab a CM on Groudon, should Groudon be in range for +1 Judgment. It CMs on a Genesect that is locked into something (rare case but can happen). It does even CM, albeit with difficult, on your lead. As Arceus-Ghost will come out relatively healthy after beating these mons, your only option after this is to flinch it to death with Genesect.

I'm not sure if I wanna add it to the OP, as while I'm sure it can be successful in the hands of good player (and in a game scenario factors such as spikes and momentum might remedy its weakness), it seems be problematic for new players to use this.

Regarding DPP viability
I have to take some time to go through the viability noms once again. So far I can say that I agree with Iris regarding Snorlax and Weavile. It seems the DPP ranks are filled with a bunch of more niche options, but these are generally fully usable as compared to the more gimicky options that were ranked in BW2 for example. However, this presents a problem in ranking things accurately, so I will have to think more on this. Also, I appreciate more discussion on DPP in general.
 

mags

Banned deucer.
ms and I talked and as far as the adv teams that foggi posted the first one is minority suspect's team and he has several versions like latios/ogre/omastar/regice/steelix/petaya deoa and that's his favorite version. Having a thunder immunity and another normal/flying resist other than omastar is very helpful and I think overall it's just better. The second team also seems wicked sketch. Like teambuilding process seemed like have lead slaking + add 4 s rank mons + add steel type. It's extremely weak to boltbeam lati's and even if you can revenge kill with slaking something has to drop most of the time for slaking to come in. Probably easiest fix is changing slaking to lax but even then the team just doesn't seem like it works well.
 

Foggi

Banned deucer.
Ok, I'm not sure if Tauros is entirely outclassed, though. Being able to at the very least speed tie Latios in any scenario seems like a huge advantage tbh. And I wouldn't count out Intimidate in every situation. Sure, Tauros hates the most common physical attackers in the tier (Groudon, Deoxys-A), but it doesn't exactly fare poorly vs most others. Having access to EQ is very notable, as evident by these calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 219-258 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 163-192 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 144-170 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 273-322 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 205-242 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Tauros does always 2hko common defensive steels. While Dodrio has access to the more spammable Drill Peck, HP Ghost from Tauros still gets by Gengar fine. I have almost no experience with these two mons and I can't say I would recommend them for much serious stuff but on paper, Tauros seems marginally better to me.



I find a few of the DPP teams interesting, in particular the first team, so I will add that unless people object. My only qualm with it are some sets (Magnezone with HP Fire irks me, as the team would appreciate HP Ground to hurt Dialga a lot more). I would also love to see OTR Zong with Mag but I guess that's for another team. As for the ADV teams, I find it every non (CM) Blissey team needs 2 Lati answers in this tier. In particular both teams are extremely weak to boltbeam Latis.



These are interesting teams, and it is always nice to see people providing a picture of earlier times. I always found the Grassceus/Rachi team seriously weak to sun, however. Even if Dialga gets up SR, Ho-oh can easily Roost on Arceus-Grass, Jirachi and Dialga itself. It is a strong option against most rain offensive in the tier, though, as Rachi/Grassceus/Giratina-O tend to shut down every non-Rayquaza rain offense. I'm not sure if I should add this, it would be nice with more discussion to gain more perspectives but yeah that's how I see it.



This team is fun and pretty good, I have used it a bit myself. However, it is seriously Arceus-Ghost weak and that's just a fact.

You say Arceus has few chances to CM vs this team but I find this to not be the case for the most part. In a 1v1 situation, it will CM on Palkia (in sun) and Dialga and proceed to recover stall TR turns. It can also nab a CM on Groudon, should Groudon be in range for +1 Judgment. It CMs on a Genesect that is locked into something (rare case but can happen). It does even CM, albeit with difficult, on your lead. As Arceus-Ghost will come out relatively healthy after beating these mons, your only option after this is to flinch it to death with Genesect.

I'm not sure if I wanna add it to the OP, as while I'm sure it can be successful in the hands of good player (and in a game scenario factors such as spikes and momentum might remedy its weakness), it seems be problematic for new players to use this.

Regarding DPP viability
I have to take some time to go through the viability noms once again. So far I can say that I agree with Iris regarding Snorlax and Weavile. It seems the DPP ranks are filled with a bunch of more niche options, but these are generally fully usable as compared to the more gimicky options that were ranked in BW2 for example. However, this presents a problem in ranking things accurately, so I will have to think more on this. Also, I appreciate more discussion on DPP in general.
Hp ground is fine on that magnezone, i had hp fire on it for better counterplay vs forretress sun teams wich benbes opponent really liked using.



ms and I talked and as far as the adv teams that foggi posted the first one is minority suspect's team and he has several versions like latios/ogre/omastar/regice/steelix/petaya deoa and that's his favorite version. Having a thunder immunity and another normal/flying resist other than omastar is very helpful and I think overall it's just better. The second team also seems wicked sketch. Like teambuilding process seemed like have lead slaking + add 4 s rank mons + add steel type. It's extremely weak to boltbeam lati's and even if you can revenge kill with slaking something has to drop most of the time for slaking to come in. Probably easiest fix is changing slaking to lax but even then the team just doesn't seem like it works well.
that adv team is most standard rain lineup ever created and was around when you didn't even know what smogon was, i had team like this one with something over snorlax bunch of years ago before i even made this smogon acc but when i gave this team to benbe for upl he showed it to zf and zf suggested to put lax on it wich benbe and myself liked.
 
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mags

Banned deucer.
I'm not arguing if it's your team or not but rather which version is better. My reasoning to why the other version better is regice will lure in spd walls like snorlax/blissey and of course if you lay a boom down on it then the rest of your team can easily break through. Obviously there are other switchins but nothing really likes to eat a stab icebeam except steels/water types that both hate thunder. Steelix adds to the defensive synergy and also adds a very well needed physical attacker kinda like why lax might seem better over regice. Steelix lures in things like groudon that helps out the team with keeping rain up. Snorlax doesn't lure anything for the team. It still gets the job done but it doesn't work as well as regice in this team imo. I'm curious to hear why you think this version is the better one.
 

Manaphy

POCARI SWEAT
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Hack said:
These are interesting teams, and it is always nice to see people providing a picture of earlier times. I always found the Grassceus/Rachi team seriously weak to sun, however. Even if Dialga gets up SR, Ho-oh can easily Roost on Arceus-Grass, Jirachi and Dialga itself. It is a strong option against most rain offensive in the tier, though, as Rachi/Grassceus/Giratina-O tend to shut down every non-Rayquaza rain offense. I'm not sure if I should add this, it would be nice with more discussion to gain more perspectives but yeah that's how I see it.
You're not particularly wrong. I think back in the day I would mostly play against opposing rain teams, or teams that simply couldn't handle the Specs Ogre or Grassceus surprise, which is why I found it pretty good. I'm not particularly that acquainted with the BW2 Meta anymore, however I think the core is still fairly effective, it just needs some fine tuning. What I've personally taken a liking to is Stone Edge on Grassceus so you have a way better time against Ho-Oh and a different item like Splash Plate or Expert Belt on Kabutops so he's not pressured so hard by passive damage.

I'd appreciate any suggestions other people have, it'd be cool to have it in the archive but no big deal if it couldn't. The discussion would be enlightening to my 12-13 year old self that made this team. (to be honest, I'm just glad that at that age I could make teams that would be considered decent at the time at all. Kinda shows how far we've progressed since then lol). The team is fun as hell to play with people against too.

Hack said:
I have to take some time to go through the viability noms once again. So far I can say that I agree with Iris regarding Snorlax and Weavile. It seems the DPP ranks are filled with a bunch of more niche options, but these are generally fully usable as compared to the more gimicky options that were ranked in BW2 for example. However, this presents a problem in ranking things accurately, so I will have to think more on this. Also, I appreciate more discussion on DPP in general
Here are some mons that I don't see on the Viability Rankings at all, that may start some discussion:
: This mon actually has an Ubers analysis on the site, which means it was considered good enough at the time to warrant one. I can't comment on him too much since I haven't played DPP in years, but he's bulkier than Bronzong and Forretress and can hit things with Ice Punch which may count for something?
: I remember reading about this mon in Ubers back on the Smog magazine years ago. Since he has Insomnia you can use Sash and counter-lead Deoxys forms and Darkrai, Bug Biting them and then killing them off with Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch. Additionally, you had Toxic Spikes so you weren't total fodder against everything else. Dialga leads totally sucked though. Possible D tier?
 
registeel's weak to ground. so chomp, support groudon, giratina o, dugtrio! etc beat more handily than bronzong despite more bulk. Ice punch is garbage. like when a 100 base ice punch from jirachi can never ohko a ray, a 75 base non stab ice punch is going to be super underwhelming. the best set is probably from my EoUtUmortus uber team with stoss, toxic, sr, protect. what else can it do? curse? dialga does it better with a dragon move and better starting power. sure it can explode, but so can zong. so then we ask ourselves if the psychic typing for zong is beneficial or hurting it. overall it helps because the only dark move that hits it will be darkrai (and regi is weak to focus), and how many ghost attacks are there actually? Shadow sneak is 1, scarf shadow ball from a gira is 2, the rare cm shadow ball from gira o, shadow balls from lead mewtwo and deoxys, where neither zong nor regi will be close to those mons. take what you want from that, but there's some context to the regi set. it was used by ace matador who everyone respected in ubers from ou and uu reputation than anything else. Early ubers was so infantile that gen empoleon, champion of ubers, was seen as a good for 'inventing' parasect as a kyogre counter, and primeape as a darkrai counter. Therefore, ubers was seen as a throwaway metagame, a joke. and largely still is seen as –i mean, you guys lost your place in spl. now better people have extended the dpp game beyond platinum HO / stall from mind, eo, mien, conflict, creelart, jibaku, and me.

PS: Take off parasect and primeape

toxicroak is not good. it has sucker punch / vacuum wave but not great defenses and 85 speed. so every uber known to man, especially gira o and groudon will outspeed. and like a lanturn or a vaporeon that has been theorized before, you need to get in on exactly the water spout to set up. Considering that, i don't think it is worth it even as a kyogre momentum shifter. id rather bu palkia (the 252 speed / attack version) or something. speed is vital.

jumpluff blows, it is the ultimate sit there and do nothing mon. and considering it cannot beat forretress with the known moveset (Sleep, sub, encore, leech), it is constanly forced out and if you lose hazards, you trade 1v1 until the mon wakes up. if theorymon didn't have so many vivid dreams or a fetish for wobbuffet, this mon would never be notable. it is true.

Same with ariados, sure it can do stuff like a weavile or a primeape or a parasect, but it doesn't do it exceptionally well. you lose to the premier toxic spikes setter in tenta, lose to ttar and ray–the 2nd / 3rd most common lead. lose to cloyster, etc. it just has so many bad matchups that even the top 2 (and being incredibly weak) 61.2% - 71.7% to 252 deoxys 27% - 32.2% on the follow up sneak. and that is just 252 and deoxys have been super tailored for a lot of stuff. Conflict uses bold. so do you really beat the mon you set out to beat? useless mon. Blim used it and i've destroyed that team over and over because he loses too much momentum from the start and can't recover. unlike any other metagame i've played or watched, momentum in the first turns are the most important thing in the game. people will watch a game and see that ho looks dominating because the other player is just switching trying to slow the other player down. Taking back momentum is the name of the game in dpp ubers, not spike spam, not dragon spam (which is weak, but looks strong to unfamiliar players). why do you think ice shard is such a great option on froslass, or that mewtwo is a great lead despite giving two layers to deoxys?


mons that actually need a place and are not snorlax.

Gliscor–rp bp and spD taunt toxic are insanely strong. rp bp is especially annoying when you lead ttar.

aerodactyl-taunt roost sub rock slide– great pressure staller than can take myriad special hits in sand. pressure and speed also eliminates stuff like spout, edge, spacial etc and they only hit the sub. latios dpulse is only doing 51.2% - 60.6% in sand to just 248. and latios are starting the be more and more hp fire gknot based. but really just the bulk is insane. that is almost dialga damage from latios but with roost and being faster. Taunt stops stall and the counters like groudon. Most groudon are either support roar or rp non se, so you can see how aero beats its best 'counter' in this metagame.

if snorlax gets a mention, flygon should too. but it should be brief as in "barely beats groudon, but is a cool lookin mon" jk flygon sucks. i even tried using zoner with him and tspikes, like his wet dream or best situation or flygon heaven, and ive lost about 20x more games than won. probably because i was using modest groudon too....

infernape gets a mention as lead blows but NP / SD priority ape is pretty good. Ive used it on the screens build that benbe used (deoxys screens, zong sr screens, jirachi / latias screens hw / then Mons) and it does a lot of work as option 1 or 2. SD CC / Shadow claw / Mach or NP Focus / Vacuum / HP ice is extremely potent. you also catch a lot of old latias (they only go to 102 and ape is 108) and beat palkia. band is ok too as abs has used it by just copying my typhlosion team set for set and putting ape over typhlosion and calling it his ape team.

also i want typlosion on the list. He is amazing–and better than snorlax.

victreebell or whatever the spelling isn't very good either. it can absorb tspikes on terrible sun teams. also just use grass knot instead of solar beam. youll look like a fool if a kyogre comes in on you. suckerpunch isn't reliable enough to convince me it is good. it can't boost its special attack well and grass physical is horrible. like you just lose to jirachi / zong / etc if it is physical, and too weak to do much specially. considering how ubiquitous kyogre + ray + ttar and the rare abomasnow aare, and that groudon can't come in well on three of these, sun is very shaky. and you are left with a below base 90 mon that is garbage. also can't break support dialga, like the number one mon used for all archetypes. heatran too, but less used.

thats p much it for mons on the list that shouldn't be or mons that aren't and should be. i don't care about ranking them because thats a lot of work for me and no payoff. but i will help if you desperately need me or if mons like skarm drop.

I will, however, help with a moveset list because there are so many for each mon, even the niche ones, that smogon analysis just doesn't cover. like i have infinity number of deoxys spreads for specific team purposes and froslass needs taunt for tspike weak mons or ice shard for slower mons than like 110. list goes on and on and that would be more helpful than a viability list. this list just shows new players to use x mon, so they go to analyses and see that scarf palkia is probably the best option when it is now the worst. like, worst than fp palkia. in this metagame, bu palkia is better than scarf, not really, but maybe, probably. and as wreckdra said, torment skarm is actually really good, but how will new players know how to use that themselves or figure it out? by giving them more options for mons than just mons, you actually help them get better at building, which is less frustration for them, which leads to more original teams and a happier me? See? I win, and that is worth the effort!

damn i wrote more than i wanted but whateva.
 
Good post Iris, here are my thoughts and plans on what to do. I appreciate your suggestion on a set collection. I will do one for BW I think but the tier that really needs it is ADV. We had a thread for this somewhere... Anyone willing to contribute to this is appreciated.

Tyranitar: A- to A
I think Tyranitar owns. Looking at the current A rank and my 150 Iris teams in my builder, I can't really see how Tyranitar doesn't fit there. It seems to be used a whole lot and for good reason.

Forretress: A to B+
Denied.

Blissey: A to A-
Agree. Blissey isn't that great.

Skarmory: B+ to A-
Agree. I think this is very reasonable in general, walls stuff, spikes, and spikes immune. Has surprise value with torment.

Bronzong: B to A-
I tend to see this a lot in good teams. It is versatile and easy to slap on so I will move it up.

Scizor: A to A-
Yeah agree as per my other post.

Kabutops: C+ to A-
Too much. B for now.

Lugia: B+ to A-
Agree as per my other post.

Deoxys: B- to C
Not sure as it actually 2hkos Deo-S reliably. I'll let it stay.

Quagsire: C- to B-
Yeah.

Metagross: B- to C+
Not moving.

Tentacruel: C+ to B
Sure.

Qwilfish: C+ to C-
No.

Salamence:C+ to C
Not really informed enough, this feels too pedantic.

Abomasnow:C to C+
See above.

Cresselia: C to C+
Cress probably needs to be B- even. Discuss

Gengar: C to C-
Remove entirely? Discuss

Deoxys-D: C to C-
I've seen this so little that it's probably warranted.

Victreebel: D to B-/C+
There are mixed opinions about this but I can't see a real good reason to run it.

Dugtrio
I can't see this being super useful tbh. But it can kill a Dialga sometime. Maybe it should stay ranked?

Infernape
I like it. C+?

Typhlosion
C, I think Infernape is slightly better.

Gliscor
B+ from what interpret

Aerodactyl
C+

Removal list
Weavile
Snorlax
Parasect
Toxicroak
Jumpluff
Primape
Ariados

Some of my own random thoughts for further discussion: Cloyster and Froslass should move up. Like a lot. Create E-rank for Wynaut? S-rank seems a bit crowded. Does Palkia belong? Tangrowth???

Also, we are working on resources for GSC and those will be up by the end of this week hopefully.
 
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Lead compendium is cool, maybe add regular Deoxys as it is staying B-.

I also think Scarf Dialga deserves a mention. You get the ohko on darkrai and force out common leads like kyogre, ttar (aura sphere). You have an OK chance to OHKO tentacruel with thunder. This switch-forcing is useful since you can save dialga for later, and having a scarf dialga in the back is awesome for any team. Also in most matchups except darkrai and tentacruel, you can bluff lum or specs or something and it will do even more work later. (eg. Deoxys-S, Kyogre, ttar, forretress). It is best used on teams that have slow, strong defensive cores with a rocker like a groudon or a bronzong. These cores often have trouble with darkrai and appreciate a scarf dialga anyway, without needing a dedicated hazard/anti-hazard lead.
 
Also I took the libery of moving Cloyster to B and Froslass to B+ in the DPP list. If anyone objects heavily I can budge. The order within the ranks is a mess in general. Please discuss this in regards to DPP. Other than that, I feel we are getting somewhere with DPP.

Two more things I like to address:

1. Contribution. I don't doubt there is interest for old gens in general- it is evident by the high numbers of players willing to play them on PS! and such. However, this doesn't exactly translate to a lot of contributors to this thread. Now, I do understand that some of you are just not willing to spend time on writing posts despite being interested in playing the tiers in general. This statement isn't aimed at you guys, by any means this is fine. Instead I speak to those feel insecure towards contributing simply because you are new generation players.

Here is a brief analysis and a history lesson. As Iris very correctly outlined, there are multiple factors leading to underdevelopment (infantility as he called it) of Ubers metagames. There are a few factors that are important here and they are as follows:

Public perception - "Ubers is a joke tier"
Latency of the masses - "Scarf Palkia was standard in DPP so let's assume it is standard for 2 years into BW "
Political power (explained better by Iris in the Registeel case) - "I, PokemonMaster12 with 12 billion ladder peaks and 36000 trophies to my name, claim that Solrock is a great Pokémon. Make an analysis to spread my excellence"
Small playerbase makes development slow and maturity difficulty to achieve before a new generation- "Wait, it's generation 7 already, where are the standards for generation 5?"

Why am I saying this? Because it should be made very clear that most people actually had no idea what they were doing back in the day. I personally took the liberty of re-reading the old DPP and BW forums- many posts were utter nonsense. So, don't feel insecure about being perceived as unknowledgeable just because you have not played a generation at its "prime" time. There is more room for development than you might think.

2. Replays. I realize this thread is maybe scoop creeping a lot but in order to consolidate resources of old generations to one place, replays on how actual games play out in the different metagames would be a nice addition. Digging up old logs and replays is possible. Do you guys think this is a good idea?
 
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shrang

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I agree with most of what Hack said, but this bit is a bit unfair imo

Political power (explained better by Iris in the Registeel case) - "I, PokemonMaster12 with 12 billion ladder peaks and 36000 trophies to my name, claim that Solrock is a great Pokémon. Make an analysis to spread my excellence"
Gen 4 might have been infantile back then but some of those players who made those analyses were legit the best players back in the day. In hindsight and metagame shifts that may be actual metagame evolutions or may just be "in vogue" trends, somethings that were introduced are kind of bad now. To be fair, most of the players on Smogon these days do this stuff now anyway. I'm not going to name names but we all know who they are, and I'm certainly not going to suggest they are bad. However, what's to say in 10 years time when we're in gen 11 and we look back on the Su/Mo metagame and they won't be like "psssh why did they use something as dumb as (for argument's sake) Marshadow back in gen 7? What an antiquated metagame"? Even something like DPP OU, a metagame that was played at probably as high a level as gen 7 OU now has evolved to the point where a lot things that were good back then are mediocre now.
 

Colonel M

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I would probably drop Wynaut to E (or unrank). It doesn't have that great of an advantage considering Wobbuffet performs its role almost infinitely better (the only perk is lowered durability for Custap). I think I would use the other mons in D more seriously before Wynaut. Also good that Parasect and Primeape were finally dropped - truth be told both were rather memeish and even I would have opposed to them being ranked.

And yeah definitely dont take older gen analyses to heart. You have to bear in mind older gen metagames are very different and didnt have the same resources as we do today (ever decipher a warstory? Shit is ass.) and a lot of mons are mentioned that don't even exist in Ubers VR (fun fact - Spiritomb is mentioned in Wobbuffet's Uber analysis).

Speaking of Wynaut Hack you should note how in previous generations Shadow Tag affected Ghost-types (to be fair Arena Trap also affected Giratina-A and Ghostceus). You could probably just mention in previous generations (Gen 5 on down) that Ghost-types were affected by trapping effects such as Shadow Tag to make it simple, though I am aware Giratina-O and Ghostceus are immune to Counter. I would also note for Gen 3 that Shadow Tag still traps other Pokemon with Shadow Tag (the big reason why Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet matches resulted in a draw outside of Recoil + Lefties).

I would also note Wish changes too from previous gens (5 on down restored 50% of receiver's health isntead of 50% of user's health).
 
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Inspirited

Moving Ever Forward
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I'm not sold on Tangrowth at all. For Chlorophyll abuse, which it does have the Speed for, it wants five moveslots to run Sleep Powder / Sub / Seed / Grass Knot / HP Fire but it does have the raw stats to make part of this work if the opponent refuses to use Skarmory or Forretress (basically no one). Another (and better) thought I had was to use one with full Special Defense investment using grass STAB / Knock Off / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed (or something to help with Dialga or Giratina-o), but the variability of value is very large and unjustified.

Choice Scarf Gengar was rather obnoxious to play around but also made its team look like Rock Polish Groudon food among other things. It created a strange game between its ability to Trick my Skarmory and Shadow Ball my Giratina-O, but that game ended when I felt comfortable with Skarmory taking the Scarf. From what I can see, the team is made weaker to Ground-types and Dragon-type moves all for a Rayquaza revenger killer and overall threatening Scarf user. Palkia (Hydro vs Spacial game) is the better threatening scarf user even if it isn't immune to E-Speed or Ground moves while Jirachi is the better Rayquaza revenge killer and can threaten Trick switch-ins in a similar, albiet less reliable, fashion with Serene Grace Iron Head and Ice Punch. Bulkier lead and midgame Tyranitar showing up more consistantly also help to invalidate Gengar.

Dugtrio is awful. It doesn't even KO all variants of Dialga because quite a few of them run close to max HP, hold a Choice Scarf, and some of them even have a Defense boost by the time Dugtrio can safely come in. If you are using a Dugtrio, you are punishing someone who can't seem to break away from their support Jirachi, Heatran sun builds, or Magnezone trapping antics. Outside of that, it revenge kills slower mons and it isn't even that great at that job. Ground-immune Pokemon are some of the most threating in DPP and giving them a turn to attack for something as specialized as a potential checkmate on the Pokemon mentioned above just isn't worth it to me.

My opinions on DPP are rather isolated when compared to others and I also have a couple questions:
I get what Azelf does and why it is useful, but is it ever worth running over something else? It looks like its a Pokemon that feeds on lack of knowledge, like Mamoswine, from my uneducated point of view. I see that it locks Pokemon into Stealth Rock if it is carelessly used turn one and also has U-turn to break a Tyranitar's potential Focus Sash and escape some of the time (this is more useful for getting around Giratina though). It also has a fast and powerful Explosion to call upon if something like a Rayquaza or HP invested Groudon end up carelessly boosting which is neat. My opinion for the moment is that with the option of Mew and Mewtwo's Taunt, Darkrai's Dark Void and potential Trick antics, an opposing Giratina-O's ability to threaten just about everything if you carelessly Stealth Rock or Trick as it comes in, and the abundance lead Tyranitar, Azelf is awful and might be suspected for being removed. Its movepool gives it options I may not have put together yet though. Thoughts?

I have very little experience with using screen teams and would like to know whether Uxie's Memento still makes it worth using here. My current opinion is yes because I have faced it and it's scary, but how far does that really go when considering your screen team gameplan?

The big fish in the room: Gyarados. I have used it and it does have value but I also feel like its slot could provide more value if it were something else. It would rework the team if I did change it, so it does allow a certain combination of mons to work better than they otherwise would. I am in a state where I refuse to change it tjough, because if I want to use a Gyarados, I am going to use a Gyarados goddammit! I would like to know how others have faired with using it though.
 
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shrang

General Kenobi
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Tangrowth was a better user of SD in Chlorophyll IIRC, although you definitely needed support take get rid of Skarm and Forre otherwise you're walled from kingdom come. It was bulky enough to run an SD 3 attacks set without needing to use Sleep Powder.

Re: Azelf - yeah this was one of those times where you could kind of theorymon a set, back it up with a few decent looking replays and get an analysis going. It is pretty garbage - as the person who wrote the analysis, I really kind of look back on it and I'm like "wtf was I doing". Keep in mind though, this was about the time after Vulcan Fury came out and Taunting lead Deo-S was actually quite in fashion at the time. Add to that how you can Explode and/or U-turn and/or Trick a bulky mon, it was sort of attractive. Too bad it tried to do too many things at once and it couldn't do any of them properly without saccing itself, so yeah.
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
I don't think snorlax is completely useless. A set of curse amneia slam rest was something I was tinkering with based on inspiration from zf. I am running it on a team with wish toxic jirachi, which toxics annoying giratina(o) allowing lax to stall them out (cm dpulse gira-o loses too!). This also is a nice latios(as) check and makes a neat wincon that overall is better than some of the shit that's on here (see:gengar)

Gengar is absolutely useless. Short version: It doesn't fit into any team well, doesn't hit hard enough, isn't fast enough which makes scarf its only "good" set. But that just invites tons of shit in and most other scarfers are more effective.

Gliscor is A worthy. Taunt Toxic is criminally undervalued and is super annoying for so many teams, because you always have a jirachi in the wings to deal with latios(as), effectively eliminating it. It's bulk is just ridiculously high, countering groudon easily etc etc.

Qwilfish isn't really good honestly. I'd rather use cloyster.

Also, in regards to the bell and shiftry, the main thing shiftry has over victre is dark pulse to nail latios(as) but I don't really think that that is such a huge thing when shiftry can sleep and has a stronger fire move than shiftry runs (hp fire). I'd probably move shiftry down rather than move bell up though since neither are quite outstanding.

Veto to mence moving down. Mix DD just overloads most teams alongside Rayquaza. outclassed if not paired with ray as any good dpp'er knows -- but just the pure destruction the combo forces makes me lean C+ rather than C for Mence

Dugtrio is only really good with Cress on the same team (I think B- is a stretch for it, pairing it with toxic). Just eliminating heatran on stall, weakening SpD Dialga on balance, and making sure ttar is dead really helps cress sweep teams. I am not opposed to unrank dugtrio just because it doesn't do much in any game (1 kill + rocks is usually the most one can juice out of it) but I have had some success using it.

I love gyarados actually, and I don't think it should be anywhere near unranked. (I run a set of DD, Waterfall, EQ, Outrage @ LO with kyogre and spikes support) and it is powerful, janking lots of balance teams. It actually a decent number of opportunities to set up (scarfers such as garchomp, jirachi, metagross, other things like heatran, forre, scizor, forcing zong to boom)

As much as I love manaphy, I probably think it is wise to drop it to B considering just the mons that juxtapose it right now in B+ and the type of mons in B)

I'd also drop Shaymin-S to B+, not as consistent as A- stuff.

Can confirm after my 100 attempts to make jumpluff win a game, it did not because it just sat there and did zilch :(. Agree to unrank

One last thing, sure Aero has a niche but is it C+ worthy? I'd go C the highest.

Also have some teams!

belus

Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 60 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Shard
- Spikes
- Icy Wind

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Rest
- Ice Beam

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 208 HP / 8 Def / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Recover
- Grass Knot

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Wish
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 132 Def / 36 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunder
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind

manaphy with spikes support + twave ogre / twave rachi to spread paralysis to ensure cm war winning (with any luck) + cm latias w/ gk as insurance vs groudon + cm gira-a because i like it and it fit really well!

take 5

Deoxys-Speed @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 132 Def / 36 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunder
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Grass Knot
- Thunder
- Recover

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Wish
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Thunder
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam

gyara + spikes + kyogre as rain support and speed control + jirachi as dragon resist + latios is the ogre counter + gira a the spin blocker and alternate wincon.

damn

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Lava Plume

Dialga @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Thunder

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunder

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Protect
- Wish

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Amnesia

Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Atk / 160 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- Crunch
- Stone Edge


the laxo + the aforementioned toxic rachi + suit from the ttar + groudon rocks and resets sand which is detrimental for lax + dialga as scarfer + latias as ogre counter


Appreciating the dpp love.
 
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I agree with most of what Hack said, but this bit is a bit unfair imo



Gen 4 might have been infantile back then but some of those players who made those analyses were legit the best players back in the day. In hindsight and metagame shifts that may be actual metagame evolutions or may just be "in vogue" trends, somethings that were introduced are kind of bad now. To be fair, most of the players on Smogon these days do this stuff now anyway. I'm not going to name names but we all know who they are, and I'm certainly not going to suggest they are bad. However, what's to say in 10 years time when we're in gen 11 and we look back on the Su/Mo metagame and they won't be like "psssh why did they use something as dumb as (for argument's sake) Marshadow back in gen 7? What an antiquated metagame"? Even something like DPP OU, a metagame that was played at probably as high a level as gen 7 OU now has evolved to the point where a lot things that were good back then are mediocre now.
I don't think it is unfair, it just shows the crude nature of social systems and that we must be aware that it isn't always objective reasonings that shapes metagames. Essentially the rest of your posts agrees with what I am saying. . Old generations are more subject to this because of smaller playerbases. I merely pointed out that if you can find valid grounds for something that concerns a old tier you should never post because you aren't a "gen5 player" or whatever.

I would probably drop Wynaut to E (or unrank). It doesn't have that great of an advantage considering Wobbuffet performs its role almost infinitely better (the only perk is lowered durability for Custap). I think I would use the other mons in D more seriously before Wynaut. Also good that Parasect and Primeape were finally dropped - truth be told both were rather memeish and even I would have opposed to them being ranked.

And yeah definitely dont take older gen analyses to heart. You have to bear in mind older gen metagames are very different and didnt have the same resources as we do today (ever decipher a warstory? Shit is ass.) and a lot of mons are mentioned that don't even exist in Ubers VR (fun fact - Spiritomb is mentioned in Wobbuffet's Uber analysis).

Speaking of Wynaut Hack you should note how in previous generations Shadow Tag affected Ghost-types (to be fair Arena Trap also affected Giratina-A and Ghostceus). You could probably just mention in previous generations (Gen 5 on down) that Ghost-types were affected by trapping effects such as Shadow Tag to make it simple, though I am aware Giratina-O and Ghostceus are immune to Counter. I would also note for Gen 3 that Shadow Tag still traps other Pokemon with Shadow Tag (the big reason why Wobbuffet vs Wobbuffet matches resulted in a draw outside of Recoil + Lefties).

I would also note Wish changes too from previous gens (5 on down restored 50% of receiver's health isntead of 50% of user's health).
I think Wynaut is Ubers in name so it has to be ranked then. I've heard myths in the past of Wobb+Wynaut teams but let's not kid ourselves here... It should probably be in E-rank. I will add in the mechanics you spoke of, thanks a lot.

Re: Tangrowth
Ok, Groudon check and a Power Whip being significantly stronger is some kinda niche. I'll keep it ranked.

Re: Azelf
I honestly think Azelf is pretty cool... Choice Scarf leads running a spread of 92 HP / 252 SpD / 164 Spe can outrun and Trick any Deoxys, live a scarf Dark Pulse from Darkrai, Trick and live a DM from Ray (even +satk most of the time). Unlike Deo-S it can U-turn away on TTar to break a sash.

Re: Gengar
Seems like we wanna unrank this?

Re: Shaymin-S
I can agree with this

Re: Gliscor
I'm actually thinking A- for now. Teams based around support Dialga+Giratina-O just get destroyed by thing.

For now I propose the following order in the ranks S through B, proposed changes based on discussion and my own thoughts in brackets:
S: Kyogre > Dialga > Darkrai > Giratina-O > Palkia (to A+?)

A+ Deoxys-S > Groudon > Jirachi > Latias > Rayquaza > Mewtwo

A: Garchomp > Latios > Tyranitar > Forretress > Wobbuffet > Scizor > Heatran

A-: Skarmory > Lugia > Shaymin-S (to B+?) > Blissey (to B+?) > Deoxys-A

B+: Gliscor (to A-?) > Ho-oh > Manaphy > Froslass

B: Bronzong (to B+?) > Lucario > Kingdra > Cloyster > Tentacruel > Mew > Kabutops

B-: Metagross > Giratina > Ludicolo > Quagsire > Deoxys


Slurmz your Manaphy team is pretty well made, I have the same 6 mons myself. I just found it pretty hard to handle Rayquaza without a scarfer. DD and SD variants are super strong vs that team. I like the Gyarados team more and I think I will add that.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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DPP!Tangrowth sucks. Tangrowth's only real advantage over Skymin for subseeding is that it can outrun Mewtwo, since Tangrowth isn't fast enough to beat most Scarfers, and Skymin is way more threatening offensively with consistent Speed and Serene Grace. Tangrowth also has no chance of beating Giratina(-O) and needs an SD boost to do real damage.

Also agree with Iris on Victreebel being a hot steaming pile of garbage (source: me, I tried to pitch the analysis for this back in DPP days and we mutually agreed it sucked). If you really want a Chlorophyll sweeper I think Shiftry is the only viable candidate. Dark STAB, Fighting-type moves so it can actually hurt Dialga, and Explosion are very notable advantages and more than make up for Sleep Powder.

I would just unrank Tang and Vic.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
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Gengar's kind of crappy on standard DPP Ubers, but just a note that it's a whole lot more useful in Farceus, if we're going to include anything for that metagame in this thread. Focus Blast revenges weakened Ekiller, Steelceus and Darkceus, Shadow Ball nails Ghostceus, you also outspeed Garchomp which is also really good in Farceus.
 

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