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Comments: Ludicolo is good on like 1 team and is super specialized but it's the best stall team atm so B-, not C. Heracross is amazing and should see more usage, A- or even A. Umbreon is ironically the best sun abuser, it's basically Bliss with Pursuit if you can guarantee sun. Deo-A should stay S just because it's impossible to truly "check" - you can get real wild with sets and a single coverage move will invalidate any counter; it's also a safety net which is where it's defensive utility comes from. I think there's also a strong case for Deo-D in A and Forre in A-.
I'm not sure about Deo-A being in S just yet. When it does well it absolutely destroys teams but I feel unlike the other S ranked mons it needs just that little bit of team support and a bit of scouting to really get it into its stride while all four of Lati@s/Kyogre/Groudon need 0 support to function.
Hey! Not sure if this has been said, but I was putting a team in from the Gen 6 ORAS samples at the start of the thread, and when validating it said that Gengar can't have Cursed Body :)
this is now fixed. it's an error caused by the ability change in gen 7 messing with imports - Nayrz
With Generation IV Übers ladder being a RoA spotlight now and many people old and new (hopefully) trying it out, i think it's about time for a small VR update - Classic has shown what really is meta now and current rankings in my opinion don't reflect that accurately.
I'm hoping my fellow DPP grinders jump in on the discussion and let me know their thoughts; in any case here's my updated rankings, mons in the same group are ranked in no particular order
S
Kyogre
Darkrai
Dialga
Giratina-Origin
Important thing here is Palkia dropping a rank, with toxic spikes/more hazard oriented metagame than ever, a grounded Kyogre check with no recovery just doesn't cut it anymore. Suboptimal scarfer too, Lustrous orb is about the only really good set
Bumps for Chomp and Latios, chomp is arguably the best scarfer in the tier next to Dialga, very splashable - I don't see why it should be ranked below Palkia. Latios is Latios, the strongest meteor in the tier alone makes it A+.
A (here's where most shifts start)
Tyranitar
Lugia
Tentacruel
Bronzong
Kingdra
Giratina Altered
Heatran
Wobbuffet
Deoxys-attack
Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 172 SpD / 84 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
Pretty standard fat rain, for ladder you could even use payapa tentacruel to tspike on deoxys-f leads. With dpp having slowed down a little this kind of a team is better than ever now - watch out for enemigo tspikes, save cruel in that case. careful vs eons.
Wobbuffet @ Custap Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 28 HP / 228 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Destiny Bond
My hyper offense i used vs iris in UPL VI, i wanna say it's THE oras sample HO of DPP...? I don't know. But the team is definitely good and perfect for the newly opened ladder which makes it a good sample. Not hard to pilot either, trap and setup stuff with wob, Memento Latios as emergency. One of my favourite teams period.
Let's have some discussion about this
t̶e̶r̶r̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ fantastic tier. And remove the gyarados sample, it's really bad
@ edit - put groudon in A+, forgot about it for some reason
@ edit 2 - added Magnezone
The entire lead metagame is centered around this 'mon and never allowing it to get two hazards on you/a hazard and a status (counting Taunt on a hazard lead as a status for the sake of this example). It's sheer impact on forcing every lead to carry some way to deal with it while also making even dedicated stall builds have to consider whether or not it's worth ever running something over it warrants it the position of a metagame warper. Unlike it's way more offensive counterpart (Deo-F) you can even make it bulkier and throw a Colbur Berry on top to guarantee that it's gonna survive a hit from the things meant to counter it.
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. -1 248 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Deoxys-Speed: 220-259 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage(assumes Superpower was used earlier)
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Colbur Berry Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Colbur Berry Deoxys-Speed: 147-174 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colbur Berry Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colbur Berry Deoxys-Speed: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 201-237 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(Not a guaranteed KO from full)
It also provides a very slight surprise factor based on it's coverage moves. Between Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse, Extreme Speed, Superpower and Psycho Boost (looking at you, Tentacruel and Cloy abusers) no lead is 100% safe from it(not to mention the potential Trick set to give your opponent a scarf in case of the mirror lead match-up.
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 318-374 (95.2 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 194-230 (56.8 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 260-308 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 154-182 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
-1 4 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 204-244 (59.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 318-374 (95.2 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
200 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tentacruel: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tentacruel: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 180-214 (64 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 4 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 122-144 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Darkrai: 115-136 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 154-182 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As far as the other ranks go:
Heatran,Forretress and Blissey to A-
Heatran always feels like a huge momentum drain on every team it's on, doing a couple of things kind of right but never as well as its contemporaries, it feels like a "win more" mon that is not all that splashable and is generally outclassed by the other steels.
Forretress suffers from the metagame being too fast for it find a solid place in the upper echelon of the tier. The presence of Gira-O on every single team makes its job exponentially harder than it should be, and the fear of one hiding in the back leads even the most experienced players doubting the 50-50 between clicking hazards or spinning.
Speaking of hazards, Blissey, while a premier wall that beats every special attacker not named CM Ogre in the tier, suffers from the problem of getting worn down too easily and fearing hits from mixed attackers, leading it to have more trouble than it should switching-in.
I also wanna mention that dedicated hazard leads such as Tentacruel, Cloyster and Froslass deserve to be raised to at least A- because of the pressure all 3 of them put on other leads.
Any comments on how bad I am for spending so much time discussing leads and 3 fat walls are welcome.
Lives a +2 Earthquake from Arceus-Ground with shuca berry, and yes to a degree it favours you to live Deo-A LO superpower. Max speed is also fine, I like max speed for the base 90s. Nayrz just wanted to optimise the evs of the sample team.
I am building off of absdaddy's Gen 4 VR list. To summarize, I am moving Groudon up just below Garchomp and the two hovering steels are going to be closer to each other with Skarmory edging out over Bronzong and both being above Giratina-A and Kingdra.
Bronzong is a better special dragon pivot than Skarmory and especially Forretress but, that is all it is really good for afterward the rocks are on the field. Explosion keeps it from being complete set-up bait for many mons and it's ability to take Stealth Rock duty reliably so Groudon / Dialga / Deoxys-e have more set flexibility puts right on the level of mons like Kingdra and Giratina-A who are both very strong in there own right.
Skarmory won't allow mons to set up on it without the risk of Whirlwind (on preset hazards of course) and Spikes are almost necessary on most balances and bulky offense teams due to Dialga/Groudon/Jirachi etc being absurdly hard to KO (without trading something you don't want to for it) without them. Taunt access is useful for restricting what a stall team can do with its slower mons and some of the faster ones hate Taunt on the switch. Skarmory will usually last a long time against these teams and continue to be useful with its Spike setting an phazing antics, even without Taunt. It also allows more balanced teams to leave Giratina behind in some team situations which is something many Spikes users can't do responsibly. It is an overall worse pivot than Bronzong thanks to the Thunder weakness and worse special bulk, but I think it does enough in other areas Bronzong can't touch that it gets the spot above it. Skarm has no fear of mono attacking Bulk Up Dialga until last mon scenarios; it's a mon Bronzong will have trouble with all game.
Groudon is just a very solid mon. The specially defensive one somewhat mimics Dialga where it can reliably set Stealth Rock and its switch-ins hate staying in to deal damage to it between Groudon's Thunder Wave and coverage move. Groudon can also straight up end games and I think we have all had our teams abruptly destroyed by the Rock Polish variants that require so much care to handle. Groudon either posses more utility value or more game destroying/ending power than the mons below it I think and is on more teams than most of them. I really want to place it above Garchomp, but given the success abs has been having with it recently, I will give this the benefit of the doubt.
I think there is also a case for Forretress to move above Manaphy, but that's not something I can back up at the moment.
I've now taken over this thread w/ Nayrz's permission, So I'll be getting the resources of the old gens hub up to date.
I understand the activity of the thread has been quiet for progress of the resources, but I'll be updating that and all this thread discussion is brilliant to see.
Here are the main topics of concern I wish to implement into the Old Gens Hub before the release of Generation 8:
RBY
A Introduction of RBY Ubers into the old gens hub - Including Gen 1 Mechanics, Viability rankings, Sample Teams etc, my plan is to ensure all generations 1-6 get some form of representation here - DONE
GSC
Introduce some sample teams - there are none as of yet - DONE
Implement the updated Viability rankings - DONE
Consider extra resources if possible.
ADV
ADV is what i'd consider one of the more 'popular' old gen (along with BW) amongst the community - I want to introduce more resources, update viability rankings etc.
Update sample teams - Introduce modernised teams that fit the meta
DPP
Update the DPP Samples since they seem rather out of date and some look unviable (removed the Gyarados team) - Zf and Abs submitted some good teams so ill probably add some of those
Potentially look into updating DPP VR - Probably gather some opinions of DPP Players to reach a general consensus
BW
BW at a face value looks fine, I'll see what I can do. Stuff like Role / Teambuilding Compendium is always good to add. Will have discussions among more players to get a general consensus.
ORAS
ORAS Is really lackluster for a 'modern' Old gen and needs a revamp, VR is good but there is a lack of resources in the old gens hub despite there being a lot of ORAS content that has been posted elsewhere on the forums.
Thats my plan for the thread anyways, if anyone else has anything they want to share / post any discussion about, it would be great to see it in the thread.
