All Gens Underrated Sets

(...)And without explaining further (because I might be wrong about it and if not, it would require me to write an even longer book post) I think people slowly realize that Reflect+S-TossChansey is not the holy grail it was made out to be when it got popular (basically Mr.E's point, if I understand him correctly).
That is not the argument we're having. Let me quote Mr.E once again:
Reflect Toss Chansey is truly a worthless garbage abomination of a pokemon nobody should ever use (...)
While our stance is that Reflect SToss Chansey is a viable set (even could be considered a 2nd standard set) that has certain advantages (as well as disadvantages obviously) over the BoltBeam one. Whether you choose either of those or something else depends on your needs and preference in a larger context of the entire team you build. In that in mind and the fact that it is quite popular and used succesfully my initial post presented my astonishment that it isn't included in the smogon analysis.
 
Dude, it is the standard set these days (along with BoltBeam I'd say). No doubt about it. You being astonished that it is not in the Smogon analysis is surprising me however. The smogon analysis for old gens are outdated as they can be. You'll find a load of crap in Smogon's RBY analysis (and probably GSC and ADV as well). These analysis have been written when the old mechanics were still in place and no one cared to revamp them and customize them to fit the new metagame that came when correct mechanics were found.
 
(...)You being astonished that it is not in the Smogon analysis is surprising me however. The smogon analysis for old gens are outdated as they can be. You'll find a load of crap in Smogon's RBY analysis (and probably GSC and ADV as well). These analysis have been written when the old mechanics were still in place and no one cared to revamp them and customize them to fit the new metagame that came when correct mechanics were found.
Well I'm still relatively new to the site and since smogon claims to be "the most comprehensive and accurate online resource for competitive Pokémon battling." I would expect their analyses to be up to date (at least in the context of mechanics findings).
 

Mr.E

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I wasn't even arguing for BoltBeam, I was arguing for using Ice Beam over Toss on a Reflect set. Not that Tbolt isn't a fine move to have, and I don't like Reflect Chansey anyway so that's more where I'd be shaving the extra moveslot if I want two attacks, but *shrug*. But sure, ultimately the point is that it's not as good as everyone thinks it is. Nor is it in any way "underrated," though as stated it was only brought up to question why it wasn't in Chansey's on-site analysis.

The answer is, of course, because old gens have actually seen quite a bit of metagame development the past 2-3 years and the main site is outdated in that regard. The main site has always been behind what you can sink your teeth into on the forums here, but especially in the case of old gens nobody really wants to bother updating it. There's not many of us that care, Smogon's tourney scene doesn't exactly foster much excitement for at least RBYGSC, and for RBY a lot of would-be traffic is on Pokémon Perfect these days.

I've been wanting to update GSC analyses for a long time, for example. But I haven't played any serious matches in years except almost-exclusively GSC in SPL and one random VGC event (where I actually did quite well). I'm just not invested enough in the game anymore to muster enough effort to actually rewrite them, I've mostly moved on and Smogon is just my main Internet hangout and I just kinda semi-seriously get up for the one yearly event/tourney I still actually care about. At the same time, I know no more than a couple dozen people are going to give a rat's ass if I do it anyway and it's a lot of work from which I personally wouldn't see any benefit.

At any rate, I'm more amused by bringing up Lapras as a credible argument in favor of Toss > Beam when A) Toss is still bad enough against Lapras that I'm not even sure it matters that it's technically better than Ice Beam and B) it's even less common than Rhydon, which mah boi already dismissed as uncommon enough to be irrelevant as part of my favoring-Beam argument. I was going to simply leave the topic be, but since Lusch decided to be a champion I thought I'd clarify.
 
BW:

@

Diglett-Mega (Dugtrio) @ Ground Gem
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Stealth Rock
- Screech

Nifty little dug set that I used on my sun build this week, it pairs extremely well with rocky helmet Xatu. After using sash dug I realised that it was hard to reliably prevent stealth rocks from going up in the process of trapping Tyranitar.

With rocky helmet, you can repeatedly throw Xatu into Tyranitar Crunches to chip it and prevent any stealth rock shenanigans. After two bits of chip damage, ground gem boosted EQ is an easy KO.

Ground gem is also extremely useful in nabbing kills on other pokes that would survive dug's pitiful attack stat (i.e. Tentacruel / Jirachi / Terrakion). Rock tomb is nice to prevent Volcarona / Dragonite setting up on you after a trap.

Screech is awesome for trapping chansey in conjunction with ground gem: 252 Atk Ground Gem Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -4 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 718-846 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Reliably killing the pink blob makes Volcarona's life a lot less stressful
 
Mr. E was arguing that seismic toss should be replace with ice beam on the reflect set, Lusch. I was refuting this claim, since ice beam does paltry damage against pokemon like Lapras. Also, the reason why it sounds like I was overrating reflect Chansey is because I was trying to show Mr. E, who seems to underrate it, why it is actually viable.

Here is the original post I was responding to, posted by Mr. E: "Reflect and Toss individually are fine moves, but I don't really understand the point of pairing them (with TWave) because you're pretty much auto-PP stalled by switching between recovery users since you literally can't kill anything. If you insist on sitting behind Reflect being an unkillable do-nothing douchebag, Ice Beam is at least liable to score you one "KO" via freeze."

I think you replied to the discussion without reading it thoroughly and understanding the context fully.
 
I wasn't even arguing for BoltBeam, I was arguing for using Ice Beam over Toss on a Reflect set. Not that Tbolt isn't a fine move to have, and I don't like Reflect Chansey anyway so that's more where I'd be shaving the extra moveslot if I want two attacks, but *shrug*. But sure, ultimately the point is that it's not as good as everyone thinks it is. Nor is it in any way "underrated," though as stated it was only brought up to question why it wasn't in Chansey's on-site analysis.

The answer is, of course, because old gens have actually seen quite a bit of metagame development the past 2-3 years and the main site is outdated in that regard. The main site has always been behind what you can sink your teeth into on the forums here, but especially in the case of old gens nobody really wants to bother updating it. There's not many of us that care, Smogon's tourney scene doesn't exactly foster much excitement for at least RBYGSC, and for RBY a lot of would-be traffic is on Pokémon Perfect these days.

I've been wanting to update GSC analyses for a long time, for example. But I haven't played any serious matches in years except almost-exclusively GSC in SPL and one random VGC event (where I actually did quite well). I'm just not invested enough in the game anymore to muster enough effort to actually rewrite them, I've mostly moved on and Smogon is just my main Internet hangout and I just kinda semi-seriously get up for the one yearly event/tourney I still actually care about. At the same time, I know no more than a couple dozen people are going to give a rat's ass if I do it anyway and it's a lot of work from which I personally wouldn't see any benefit.

At any rate, I'm more amused by bringing up Lapras as a credible argument in favor of Toss > Beam when A) Toss is still bad enough against Lapras that I'm not even sure it matters that it's technically better than Ice Beam and B) it's even less common than Rhydon, which mah boi already dismissed as uncommon enough to be irrelevant as part of my favoring-Beam argument. I was going to simply leave the topic be, but since Lusch decided to be a champion I thought I'd clarify.
Seismic Toss does above 20% to Lapras, while ice beam does 4%. Lapras and the other ice types are more common than Rhydon.
 
well i normally choose not to disclose my strategies in threads such as these but since the cat's out of the bag i present:


Tauros
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Stomp
- Substitute

i call it "badaros". RBY is all about rng and with this set i aim to maximize my odds to hax the opponent. rock types and the smily ghost are rare sights in today's metagame so lack of coverage is generally not a problem. it plays very similarly to flinchhax jirachi in DPP, subbing up on paralyzed mons to punish status moves and protecting your sub with stomp as they just flounder around. stomp also has utility in the ditto as a flinch is more probable than a crit or freeze. same for epic comeback sweeps. it's crazy to me that this set has remained undiscovered in the oldest ou tier for so long, but hopefully more new players can bring out the innovation.
 

Heroic Troller

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Sub's too bad on Tauros though, let's say you set uped your sub on an asleep mon sacked for free, then you kill it. You have your Tauros behind the Sub statusless, which is cool. However the rkiller can be any Thunder Wave user (Starmie/Chansey/Alakazam/Exeggutor (Stun Spore)/Zapdos), at that point either you dodge the tw and lost 25% hp for free, something that can easily snowball later on the Tauros vs Tauros, or you go 1v1 but eat that par on Tauros which usually no one wants to, ever.

Stomp is ok but Rhydon is not that "rare" and Blizzard should be there over Sub.
 
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...it plays very similarly to flinchhax jirachi in DPP, subbing up on paralyzed mons to punish status moves and protecting your sub with stomp as they just flounder around. stomp also has utility in the ditto as a flinch is more probable than a crit or freeze. same for epic comeback sweeps. it's crazy to me that this set has remained undiscovered in the oldest ou tier for so long, but hopefully more new players can bring out the innovation.
You are aware, that Substitute does not block status in RBY, right? (That means Thunder Wave and Sleep Powder will still hit you, even witha sub up)
 

Jorgen

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“modern” snorlax carrying rest is largely a result of reflect chansey existing to stall it out. saying the latter is bad because of the former is sort of like saying gsc snorlax is bad because of skarmory.

reflect isn’t the controversial move here. it’s good, it’s long been known to be good. the controversey is giving up ib’s freeze potential & ability to break rhydon subs (& se hits on zapdos & egg!) for stoss, which might let you win the stall war against zam’s & starmie’s piddly hp stats (and little else) in return for all that you sacrifice.

also we don’t have to be petty about who’s better than whom here. I know shitting on MrE is sort of a meme but it’s dumb because it’s not like he’s actually bad and dumb, he just likes to speak in brazen absolutes a lot (like the rest of smogon tbf). quit it & stick to the pkmn thx.
 

Mr.E

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I didn't mention eggy cuz I figured with special drop rate ice beam wasn't actually that much better, although toss can't crit or freeze so that's something still I guess :blobshrug:

late edit nobody will read but not important enough for a new post: Comparing Rest Snorlax to GSC Skarm usage is pretty different too. Skarmory would probably see no usage if Snorlax wasn't the dominant force of GSC and giving up a moveslot for Rest on (RBY) Snorlax is a lot different than giving up an entire team slot for Skarmory. Rest on RBY Lax is more akin to using a Fire move on GSC Lax, for Reflect Chansey and Skarm respectively, but even then, RBY Lax sometimes carries Rest regardless. GSC Lax has virtually no use for FB/FT without Skarm to worry about, since Earthquake hits everything else.

Nonetheless, if Snorlax usage has adapted to "counter" Chansey's counterplay by using Rest more often, Chansey must also re-adapt by using Ice Beam over Toss to threaten the freeze and maintain its edge. Or maybe you don't try to stall/beat Snorlax with Chansey in the first place, but then you don't really need Reflect since vs Lax is its main use. *shrug*
 
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I was not trying to bash on Mr. E and did not know that it was a "meme" to do so, since I have not been in this community for a long time. All I was trying to say is that the set "reflect/ice beam/softboiled/twave", which Mr.E proposed, is worse than "reflect/seismic toss/softboiled/twave", since the former set gives up coverage.
 
I'm going to join in in support of Reflect/IB. Personally, I would run this on literally every Reflect Chansey were it not for the fact that I rarely make use of freezes these days.

Anyway, I don't think coverage is an issue for mono-IB Chansey, as there are plenty of Tbolt users that can scare out opposing Water types that you can run alongside it, and since none of the water types really force Chansey out (bar Slowbro in this case), you're generally free to find a safe opening for your Tbolt user to come in and go to town. The bigger issue I see with IB is that almost everything that typically absorbs sleep wakes up on you for free, whereas SToss at least discourages this.
 

McMeghan

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SPL being over for me, I want to share some things I've used/theorymoned during the tournament.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers/Chople Berry/Lum Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Knock Off

This isn't really original but I think I'm in the minority when it comes to running Seed/Spikes-less Ferrothorn. Personally, I like to use Ferro as an all-around pivot/punching bag in my Rain Offenses, and I really value its ability to ditch some damages back and prevent set-ups of all sort. That's why I like having both Power Whip and Gyro Ball at disposal. Knock Off is mainly there to remove other Ferrothorn's Leftovers, which goes a long way for Rain Offenses that try to overload it (think Starmie/Gyarados/Latios kind of Rains).

I like Chople Berry so you can stay in vs the like of Croak/Terrakion/Breloom and just smack them with Gyro Ball. If you play some aggro teams and like the games where things have to be sacrified every turn while you can't skip a beat, try this out! By the way, even Lum Berry is a cool option to stay in vs Rotom and hit it with Power Whip for good damages (putting Rotom below 50% is almost as good as killing it for Offenses); can also help vs Scald users or sleep moves.
---

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

HP Flying is a pretty strong option to me right now. It can actually threaten Amoonguss (45-53% vs 252/228+, 2KO'd with Rocks 87.5% of the time, guaranteed in sand) but the other great benefit is hitting Toxicroak, which is more popular than ever in Rain Offenses (guaranteed KO with 1 Spikes up). I originally thought of using HP Psychic, which would have the added benefit of hitting Tentacruel, but it sadly gives you a Speed IV of 30 and tieing other Keldeos and the rarer Terrakions are much more valuable to me. If you're not a speedsexual like me, you can consider it though...

Also don't use Scald on Spec Keldeo -_-
---

Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn
- Toxic

Rock Slide is pretty much only for Volcarona and if your team can handle it by other means (I know, rather unlikely), that unlocks an option on your moveset. I think Toxic is pretty good because you hit very important targets like Mew or Cresselia, Pokemons that can be absolute nightmares to face for a lot of teams. A 100% accurate fighting stab is also tempting but Toxic broadens your options.
---

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Transform

Definitely my favorite "find" of the tournament. I won't explain to you in details what Ditto does or can do, but I will explain why I chose to run it and why I think it's definitely worth your consideration. Ditto possesses two invaluable traits right now, especially for Sands:
  • It can offensively check Excadrill.
  • It can trap Dugtrio (which means you can keep one of your two sun answers, Heatran/Tyranitar for example, by trapping Dugtrio after it's done killing one of the two, granted you've broken the sash before).
Both traits are invaluable atm, considering usage numbers of both Excadrill and Dugtrio teams (Suns) in general. Ditto is also amazing vs set-uppers in general (can handle the ever so fearsome Volcarona) but very awkward as a cleaner, unlike the "regular" scarfers.

It can also find different usages depending on what you're facing. In my SPL game, it was able to use clutch Heal Bells for example. In my testing games, it once won by spinning as a Tentacruel or spiking as a Ferrothorn.

If you're unfamiliar with Ditto, you gotta know it's considered as Ditto upon switching in, which means it'll take regular SR, Spikes and TSpikes damage. It can be a good thing though, as you will for example not take 50% if you come in and transform into a Volcarona. It also won't remove TSpikes by transforming into an Amoonguss/Tentacruel/Toxicroak, etc.

I'm not saying Ditto is the panacea of the tier, but I think it's definitely very interesting in the current metagame.
 

Century Express

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GSC


Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
- Thunder | Thunderbolt
- Dynamic Punch
- Fire Punch
- Explosion

Not something really innovative, just a forgotten tweak. Dropping Ice-type coverage is kinda annoying, depending of your opponent's preferences (it's pretty much helpless vs. Nidoking or Rhydon), but it's a solid choice otherwise, because now you can play around every common Explosion-resistance. Punishing Lix / Ttar is great for Lax, and there's always the threat factor against Zapdos / Raikou / Lax, which is obviously important to open a win condition for your own Zapdos / Raikou. FP also helps with the Curse Heracross weakness (something that happens usually in Zap-less offenses). I prefer to use Thunder over Thunderbolt because Thunder + Explosion always kills Zapdos, and it helps with the paralyze fishing against Raikou / Gengar dittos.


Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Illuminate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 2 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Psychic | Recover

It's an extremely weird Starmie variant, but it's surprisingly good with some support. I use it with Boomlax usually aiming on Lax vs. Lax trades (or Umbreon / Miltank in some matchups), and Eggy or Gengar to bait-kill Electrics | Lax (although you don't need always to boom); some support like Thief should be hella convenient against Raikou or Lax, especially with Spikes. Psychic is obviously important in matchups againt Machamp (which gives you a convenient backup if you trade your own Eggy for Zapdos, for example) or Heracross / Druidcruel, while Recover allows Starmie to counter non-Crunch Tyranitar and Jynx (the latter is a huge threat against teams over relying on RestTalk Zap to absorb sleep). Good offensive coverage + immediate recovery it's one of Starmie's main perks over Vaporeon, because it doesn't give too much opportunities for Cloyster or Eggy to explode on it.
 

Jorgen

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I'd theorymonned HP Water Gengar a long while back for getting SE hits on every Explosion resist, including Rhydon. In the end, though, giving up punches is a huge price to pay - ice punch in particular for making Zapdos' life a pain and for fishing for freezes on pokes that can't touch it.

Countering Curse Heracross can be important even for some with-Zapdos offenses though - Heracross thrives against teams like Zapdos/Nidoking/Ttar/Exeggutor/Cloyster/Snorlax, just paralyze the Zapdos and that team struggles a ton. So that's a valid reason to run FP. With Dpunch too you don't fear Ttar (as much), which is normally a huge problem if you try to keep ice punch and run fire for Hera/Steelix, and of course with FP you don't have to worry about having nothing for Egg the way you would with something weird like HP Water. It's a bit of a hack imo but I've justified hackier moveslots (generally on the all-important Zapdos, namely HP Water > HP Ice to mitigate Rhydon weaknesses, and of course the aforementioned HP Water Gengar lol).

As for Starmie: I'd toyed around with a Rain Dance set before, which is just a hyper-metagamed variant of the 4-attacks Starmie. HPump/Thunder/Rain Dance/Recover. In the Rain, HPump is a likely 3HKO on Snorlax (hence why you bother setting it up & using the obviously problematic Pump instead of the more reliable Surf). Thunder is perfectly accurate in rain and chosen over IB so that Vaporeon doesn't just waltz in and say "thx for the free boost lol". Egg gets annoying but Thunder can paralyze it at least, and if it gets too bad you could forgo Recover for that second coverage option (but there's plenty of ways to deal with Exeggutor via Pursuit & Skarmory so it's hard to imagine it getting bad enough to justify that trade). The main issue with a set like this is that PP is quite limited. TBF if HPump had Thunder's PP this set would probably be kinda viable instead of a goofy gimmick.
 

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