Unpopular opinions

[pika pal]

Aside parallels you can connect with the Professor, I do agree that Penny and Nemona feel tacked on for the final story and the only reason they're included was an excuse to not go right into the final story after defeating completing Path of Legends without completing the other two storylines.

Penny was brought along because they needed a tech expert. So, what is her contribution to the final story? Turning the lights on in the Area Zero Gate. That's it. No other time is her tech expertise needed. Don't get me wrong, I like her interaction with the crew, being sassy (though realizing when she went too far) and using common sense. However that's not why she was brought along, and the most baffling thing is that they could have given her further tech things to go. On our way down Area Zero we had to re-activate the Research Stations. Now, just entering them automatically gives the Professor access to them, but they could have at least had Penny be the one to turn it on (and maybe require the player, Arven, and Nemona to go check on something while she does her techy stuff) and contact the Professor. Yes, gameplay wise it doesn't change anything, but would have given Penny more of a reason to be there in-story.

The weird thing to me is they had a pretty reasonable set-up to use Penny's tech expertise at the stations: Stations 1 and 2 (or 2 and 3 if we make 1 "free"), have Penny need to hack in to get it online, when some aggressive Wild Pokemon attack and Nemona/Arven help you keep them off her back. The last station could be online already but have a mechanism she can't get into (EX: Arven using the Book to open the gate to Deep Area Zero) to fit Penny's Battle in. Then Station 4 is opened by the Professor and things proceed as we see in the final game. This mostly requires a few text box changes since you can just have the "hacking" off-screen while you're battling the Wild Pokemon.

Which is probably why, for Arceus at least, they decided to go the "avatar" angle. It's not ACTUALLY god you're catching, but rather its the physical puppet god created to interact with the world cause it's too metaphysical to do so.

Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if all the other Sinnoh Legendaries connected to Arcues were too just "avatars" of what they represented. Dialga and Palkia aren't literally the embodiment of time and space, rather like the Arceus Avatar they're physical puppets with the power of time and space so it can have them manipulate those forces on a "miniscule" scale. Heck, maybe that is why Dialga and Palkia exist; why would Arceus need them anyway if its god of everything? Well because the Arceus Avatar doesn't have enough room to fit in the power of "time" and "space", so made a Time Avatar and Space Avatar as a compromise. Giratina exists as a Counterbalance Avatar, encompassing anti-matter (as well as anti-time and anti-space) so reality doesn't break down while the other Avatars bend reality (unfortunately this made Giratina a tad bit violent so Arceus had to shove it into the Distortion World where it can still do it's "job" but there's no concern of hurting anyone). As for the Lake Guardians, they were probably made not to create their spiritual traits but as yet as more tools for Arceus Avatar. Arceus Avatar doesn't look to have any control over sentient life, thus needs the Lake Guardians to manipulate them.

"Okay, so they're all "Avatars" of what they represent, so what? They're still incredibly powerful Pokemon who could have easily defended themselves from Team Galactic"

Could be Team Galactic, or rather Cyrus, pulled some loopholes in order to get around getting him & his team obliterated by them. Going after Dialga & Palkia directly was a no-go, they would be destroyed without something to control them. Hence they needed to go after the Lake Guardians to make the Red Chain. So, why didn't the Lake Guardians fight back? Cause they were inactive. Just like Dialga and Palkia as long as they were in their dimension (note the Lake Guardians dimension is the normal Pokemon World). Dialga, Palkia, and the Lake Guardians are loyal to Arceus (Avatar), so unless being actively used by it they're inactive. Giratina is the only exception as it has revolted against Arceus' control, but it's stuck in the Distortion World (at least until, in Platinum version, the timespace distortion caused by Dialga & Palkia allowed it to crossover though only to attack the one who was messing with the balance of the world: Cyrus). Galactic captured them while they were inactive, them only reactivating after what was needed to make the Red Chain was extracted from them. And so, with the Red Chain, Team Galactic could now summon the Dialge or/and Palkia and take control of them, forcing them to use the power they only use at Arceus' command to create a new universe (until its stopped).

So looking at them in that light it makes sense why Team Galactic was able to get the upperhand... of course this is a retcon as at the time they were very likely meant to be taken as deities.

One thing I'll mention initially, one of the Diamond/Pearl Manga adaptions depicts the Lake Trio as asleep during the Lake Valor sequence (the characters fighting back awakens Azelf briefly in response to their willpower), and they're drawn as being sort of painfully-shocked awake at the Galactic Building. I had always assumed the Legendaries were sleeping and captured/secured before they were awake enough to fight back (especially since the Lake Trio are in the "Minor" Legendary category that's usually depicted as catchable). Cyrus's plan is depicted as effectively ruined when the Red Chain is broken, so it's clear this object, which required an operation to catch 3 other Legendary Pokemon with heavy tech and a base they have lost now, is the only reason he could get Dialga/Palkia to even attempt what he was after. The Lake Guardians don't have a physical power over them, they just pacify them on a spiritual/emotional level to not say "screw the Universe, where's the reset button?" and then leave.

I also think it's important to note that in this Avatar theory, this particular idea is a retcon in the games without total consistency in the Anime Arceus, namely the fact that M12 features it fighting the Creation Dragon trio, which wouldn't make sense if thy were all extensions of the same will. I kind get the sense the Sinnoh Legends aren't really Avatars or Puppets the same way the God Llama is, at most they strike me as entities Arceus creates to give order to these forces but doesn't have direct control of. The HGSS event already confirms they can just be created on a whim by Arceus so it's not like they so-absolutely embody the concepts as to be the sole existence even before Multiverse shenanigans happened.

All this acknowledging it's retconning, because I think it's also the case that in 2005-6 (Development and release), Pokemon simply didn't emphasize story enough to consider what kind of scale a monster like Time & Space Deities should actually work on, something you do see in other media like how DC constantly has to figure out how the hell The Flash operates in a given iteration.

Personally, the Sinnoh Legend stuff never bothered me a great deal because I don't think the games depict them getting as far as proving the feats they're trying besides Giratina and the Distortion World existing, and a lot of their other powers/feats are brought up in lore books but never seen through outright in the Games. My interpretation had always been that the Sinnoh Legends aren't actually Capital-G God Pokemon equivalents, rather they're extremely powerful and revered as such by Sinnoh of old. In Gen 5 the equivalent would be the "Original" Tao Dragon, Gen 6 presents Mega Rayquaza as such in Hoenn, and I'd argue such an idea could be applied to Ho-oh and Lugia in Johto retroactively. As for the difference in feats/scales they recount, just consider how wild some Mythologies in the real world get compared to each other.

- Christianity/Judaism: "God speaks through a burning bush and unleashes 10 Physical Plagues on Egypt"
- Greece: "Kronos devours his kids and a rock only to be made to spit them out and be overthrown. Zeus eats another Goddess only to get a literal splitting headache which his Daughter Athena pops out of full grown in battle armor"
- Norse Mythology: "Every object and concept in existence swears not to hurt Baldur, making him basically invincible. Also Gleipnir is made out of 6 ideas that don't exist any more because they were used to make it."

 

[SpiritGuy]

I'm posting this since Pokemon community is obsessed with dual types, especially those who have never been used.

It's ok to be single-typed.

As a person who prefer serching explanations to certain choices of design / type rather than being outraged at them, I value coherence over originality, and I don't mind a Pokemon which is single typed if the reason behind it is coherent. Moreover, I'm generally pretty dubitative concerning the arguments of the people who want a certain type for X Pokemon. For example, Luxray, I don't get what could be "dark" in it, except maybe its edgy look, the Pokemon isn't described as mischievious, nor evil.

I'm open to justified typing changes though, for example, I wish Braviary was a fighting type due to its belligerent and brave nature, but giving new types out of the blue just for the sake of being dual typed just feel artificial to me.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I'm posting this since Pokemon community is obsessed with dual types, especially those who have never been used.

It's ok to be single-typed.

As a person who prefer serching explanations to certain choices of design / type rather than being outraged at them, I value coherence over originality, and I don't mind a Pokemon which is single typed if the reason behind it is coherent. Moreover, I'm generally pretty dubitative concerning the arguments of the people who want a certain type for X Pokemon. For example, Luxray, I don't get what could be "dark" in it, except maybe its edgy look, the Pokemon isn't described as mischievious, nor evil.

I'm open to justified typing changes though, for example, I wish Braviary was a fighting type due to its belligerent and brave nature, but giving new types out of the blue just for the sake of being dual typed just feel artificial to me.

I agree broadly with this, but I think it's a viewpoint that's influenced by hindsight.

What I mean is that I think expectations have a lot to do with people's thoughts on Pokemon types. People generally expect that new games will do things differently, and as the number of unexplored type combinations shrinks with each generation people naturally fixate on what hasn't been done before and/or what they'd like to see. So when people share details of new Pokemon, especially when the games arrive early and leakers start doing full breakdowns ("there's a new Electric-type Pokemon that can be caught early on, evolves twice and the final evolution is a big tough-looking feline") it's understandable that people might be a little let down to learn that it stays pure Electric. Of course we can say now that, actually, Luxray is fine as it is but certainly early on I remember a lot of people being disappointed in its supposed lack of potential.

Another example of wasted potential is Galarian Ponyta. It was a Pokemon that was teased prior to release - given that it's a regional form of an existing Pokemon I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something new from it. And it's... Psychic/Fairy. A typing that's been done before and has no connection to the original. I was expecting (or perhaps hoping for) it to be Fire/Fairy and I felt, not unreasonably I think, quite disappointed when that turned out not to be the case.

Generally speaking I don't have much investment in debates about "[species] should be [type]" but I am broadly onside with the mindset that, for a lot of Pokemon, they'd feel more feel more "interesting" if they had an additional type. Obviously that's subjective and varies from person to person - I've never thought that Gyarados needed to be a Dragon-type, for instance. And I don't think EVERYTHING needs to be dual-typed - Seadra is a good example of this as a Water-type that has strong Poison and Dragon affiliations (obviously it evolves into a Dragon, but still). On the other hand, I've always said that Zeraora feels like it should have been part Fighting because there's a definite affinity there (it learns a ridiculous amount of Fighting-type moves), and because I do legitimately think the novelty of it being the first Electric/Fighting species would have made it stand out more - it's not the most exciting or interesting mythical as it stands.

To give another example: Mega Glalie always struck me as wasted potential too. It's obviously stronger than base Glalie but it remaining simply pure Ice-typed feels like it's not mechanically adding anything new - and while Glalie itself doesn't have much Dark-type flavour beyond learning a few Dark moves, its Mega was a blank slate so could have been designed with that (or indeed any other type) in mind. Not every Pokemon changes type when they Mega Evolve, but I don't think Mega Glalie stands out in a particularly crowded field so I do think it could have benefited from the extra type. Again, it's moot now but at the time it wasn't an unreasonable immediate reaction to go "aw, why is this single-typed?"

In sum, I absolutely agree it's fine to be single-typed and that there should be a strong justification for making something dual-typed beyond "it'd be cool". But there are several examples in which I think it's completely justified for people to have wanted or expected something different.

 

[Nokocchi]

Another example of wasted potential is Galarian Ponyta. It was a Pokemon that was teased prior to release - given that it's a regional form of an existing Pokemon I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something new from it. And it's... Psychic/Fairy. A typing that's been done before and has no connection to the original. I was expecting (or perhaps hoping for) it to be Fire/Fairy and I felt, not unreasonably I think, quite disappointed when that turned out not to be the case.

I think your memory is a bit scrambled regarding the Galarian Ponyta reveal. It was shown to be pure Psychic. I remember many people being really confused at the time and complaining that it should've been fairy type but when the game finally got leaked it was shown to gain the Fairy upon evolving into Galarian Rapidash.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I think your memory is a bit scrambled regarding the Galarian Ponyta reveal. It was shown to be pure Psychic. I remember many people being really confused at the time and complaining that it should've been fairy type but when the game finally got leaked it was shown to gain the Fairy upon evolving into Galarian Rapidash.

Yes, I thought I'd probably gotten that wrong as soon as I pressed "post". I actually couldn't remember whether G-Ponyta was pure Fairy or pure Psychic, I just knew that G-Rapidash was Fairy/Psychic. It doesn't change the point I was making, though.

 

[Samtendo09]

It’s true that not every new Pokémon needs to be dual-typed, but even then, there is the need for a reason why some Pokémon have to be single-type.

I think another issue it can cause is redundancy if you introduce too many single-type Pokémon at once.

And let’s not forget that too many single-typed Pokémon of the same type can end up resulting in wasted potential. There’s too many single-typed Fighting-type in Galar as far as I know, with all but one newcomer (Zamazenta in it’s Crowned form) being pure Fighting in the base game, being Galarian Farfetch’d line, Falinks and Clobberpus line. It also means it gets increasingly difficult for pure Water-type Pokémon to stand out in this regard as well, considering the countless amount of them back in the first five generations.

This same goes for repeated dual-typing. A dual type isn’t too bad if repeated once in a single generation, but if there are four or more, that becomes a problem. Dual type repeated throughout at leaat three generations in a row also become problematic if the next Pokémon doesn’t stand out, like how the Tepig line get a negative reaction once people notice that Pignite and Emboar are the third Fire / Fighting starter after Blaziken and Infernape, and the pigs doesn’t stood out significantly outside of slower in exchange of HP, which ultimately amounts to not-much after you discover or remember that their other defensive stats aren’t high.

Another example would be Grass / Poison back in Gen 1. Three lines of Grass / Poison, of which even Bulbasaur starts as one, does make them feel redundant since all of them have high Special Attack and similar Abilities. It resulted Roselia to get sadly overshadowed in RSE due to comparatively unimpressive stats, which is why it got an evolution (and a pre-evolution) in DPP, and Roserade does have Technician which was especially useful for Hidden Power back when it was a widely available TM, and still useful if niche nowadays.

Legends: Arceus and Scarlet + Violet did repeared the Fire / Ghost with Hisuian Typhlosion and Skeledirge, respectively. However, it’s not an issue in the long run since Hisuian Typhlosion is faster, while Skeledirge is slower but much tankier, especially if getting access to Unaware. Had GF made Pignite and Emboar swapped SpA with either Defense or Special Defense, it’ll make much better use of their high HP and it wouldn’t be that bad.

Still, type repeat can be a real problem because it can squander potentials completely in the case of single-type, or make them feel redundant or even outright lazy for dual-type, so it’s a detail that may be small, but still very important when you consider what has already been done before.

 

[pika pal]

My big issue with type combinations is when I get the distinct sense the Pokemon's flavor is supposed to play into traits that don't match its singular or double typing. It's not so much that I need everything to be dual typing, but there are several Pokemon where I see the resulting mon and question feel like this specific creature is off.

My most immediate examples are opposite sides of a coin: Psyduck and Slowpoke lines. Early depictions of the Psyduck and Golduck line emphasize them as having Psychic Powers, including certain moves like Confusion or using Telepathy in some Manga, which always makes it bizarre to me that the line is Pure Water in both stages and every depiction. By comparison, no Dex entry for Kanto Slowpoke or Slowbro ever describes anything that entails their Psychic typing, and most appearances play up their dopey/oblivious nature more in terms of thought pattern, so by comparison they feel like Pure Water to me (Slowking makes sense to me since the Headbite is said to make it highly intelligent, a common trait in early Psychics).

This is also the closest thing I get to calling for certain type combinations: because the type should factor into the design, I'd like to see (one of) the ways an unexplored type would translate to a creature. I also think the first time is the hardest bandage to "rip off" before exploring the type further and trying a few other concepts (compare Kommo-o and Koraidon, or Zekrom to Miraidon, which share the same fairly rare typings but have pretty distinct designs from each other)

 

[Yung Dramps]

This should be required viewing for every modern Pokemon fan

 

[Sonikku A]

>Werster still calling HGSS good
Pathetic...
All Pokemon remakes suck

 

[Yung Dramps]

>Werster still calling HGSS good
Pathetic...
All Pokemon remakes suck

Corollary take: All remake OSTs are worse than the original. To varying degrees, granted, but none of them can recapture the essence of the original soundfonts for me.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I think Game Freak flat out isn't interested in doing by-the-numbers remakes anymore anyway.

The first three generations' games had enough of a justification to be remade (and in Kanto's case, remade twice) because the design principles and gameplay of original old school Pokemon (in other words, Gens 1, 2, and 3) compared to Pokemon as we know it now (ie Gen 4 onwards) were different enough, and there were enough modernizations between the original and the generation each remake took place in to justify them having such remakes. In that sense, FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS were justified as remakes.

But the thing with the likes of FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS is that largely speaking, on the surface level they were by-the-numbers remakes of Red and Green, Gold and Silver, and Ruby and Sapphire respectively, but in reality they (especially HGSS and ORAS) were much closer to modernized reimaginings of the original than just simple remakes. Now arguably FRLG was the least different from its original of the three, but it still brought a lot of quality of life gameplay improvements and had an entirely new set of areas for both a side campaign designed to be slotted into the main experience and a proper post-game quest, paving the way for future "modern" Pokemon like the soon to happen Diamond and Pearl (and Gen 4 as a whole). HGSS and ORAS took after the base games of the generations they took after and actually changed the experience of Johto and Hoenn in a way that suited what Pokemon was at the time apiece, with HGSS fleshing out the post game and all sorts of gameplay things to do while ORAS fleshed out Hoenn's story and characters and had a post-game story quest as well as some other stuff that Gen 6 introduced (like Mega Evolution).

Nowadays the Pokemon games from Gen 4 onwards have aged pretty remarkably well, even Gen 4 itself (aka Platinum and even DP itself) is very comfortable to play and very much playable and not too different from Pokemon games nowadays, as opposed to the first three generations which are extremely archaic (albeit still stand out from their remakes because they are that archaic). There's not enough of a difference gameplay wise to justify remakes of generations after 3, and I think Game Freak knows it.

The graphics and map design of modern console scale Pokemon games and old 2D Pokemon games is also too drastic and would require a larger scope of work than remakes of old like FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS while at the same time being forced to reconcile that with the faithfulness of a remake, and I don't think Game Freak considers it a worthwhile compromise to have to put in so much work to reimagine an old game to the absolute T at the expense of creative limitation due to having to abide by the original region design. Older remakes were relatively simple to reimagine the original map and region in the current engine, because Game Boy to DS for instance is not a drastic jump and DS engine graphics are still 2D, so taking a Game Boy based map and reimagining it in the DS engine is simple and still gives a lot of room for creative expansion of the original, hence why we got HGSS which looks quite good for a DS game. GBA to 3DS is a bit more of a jump because it's 2D (32-bit) to 3D, but while XY and its engine made for a 3D world and aesthetic the map design back then still confirmed to 2D map design principles so Hoenn was still a feasible region to recreate in that engine and build.

Taking something like Sinnoh or Unova though and reimagining it in a full on 3D console scale map on the scale of say, Paldea, for instance, is a significantly larger effort than before. It would require a grand overhaul of the original design and basically not look like the original game at all, and would require an extreme reconsidering and redesign of the original map. And hypothetically yes, they could do that level of work if need be, but at that point you're putting in so much work that you might as well make a totally new game altogether: the modernized Sinnoh in SwSh graphics, artstyle, and engine would be completely unrecognizable and different from the original DPP anyway, so might as well go all the way with it. In other words, the gap between modernity and faithfulness when it comes to remakes at this point is simply too wide and expensive to bridge and is not a compromise they would be willing to make at this point. There's too much of a compromise there now.

I bring up Sinnoh because the situation with BDSP and PLA and how they turned out (and were marketed) was already a clear sign of Game Freak wanting to move on from by-the-number remakes and moving to a new direction with old region revisits by doing totally new games set in old regions that provide a completely new experience set in that region. From FRLG to HGSS to ORAS they progressively tried to make the experience more and more different from the original and the latter two in particular focused more on story beats, especially ORAS with the Delta Episode paving way for PLA basically being a full-on new story for Sinnoh taking place in Sinnoh of old. Legends: Arceus was really functionally the next evolution after what they did with ORAS by being as the marketing team called it, a "Sinnoh Pre-Make", and it was clearly the FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS of Sinnoh, being in the Gen 8 engine, using Sword and Shield's graphical engine+artstyle, and PLA Hisui basically being Sinnoh redesigned in the SwSh engine and using the assets they developed during SwSh.

I think PLA in and of itself is more or less indicative of the direction old generation revisits will take moving forward. I'm not saying *every* old gen revisit will be a Legends game strictly, but I think by-the-number remakes like FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS are basically a thing of the past now and they want to move towards doing more original projects set in old regions when the time comes to visit those old regions again, like Unova, Kalos, and potentially another Johto revisit all being potential next ones down the line based on past precedent (yes, Johto, because we did revisit Kanto a second time a few years ago, so I wouldn't rule this one out). BDSP was basically faithful to an extreme and ended up as it did because it was an emergency crutch measure to "sponge" the social need for a remake that had existed at that point and to be a fallback in case their risk with PLA didn't turn out well (fortunately, it turned out to be very successful), but PLA was the real project of interest and I imagine it is more indicative of the kind of things they seem to want to do with old region revisits moving forward.

 

[Pikachu315111]

It's ok to be single-typed.

As a person who prefer serching explanations to certain choices of design / type rather than being outraged at them, I value coherence over originality, and I don't mind a Pokemon which is single typed if the reason behind it is coherent.

Reminds me when most people were trying to figure out the Types of the Galar Starter's Final Stage. Most if not all the suggestions were dual-types. Meanwhile, as you said, I looked at their designs and could only see them being mono-types, which is something they've done in the past like with the Johto Starters (and almost the Unova Starters, heck Emboar may have been better received if it was just pure Fire).

Another example of wasted potential is Galarian Ponyta. It was a Pokemon that was teased prior to release - given that it's a regional form of an existing Pokemon I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something new from it. And it's... Psychic/Fairy. A typing that's been done before and has no connection to the original. I was expecting (or perhaps hoping for) it to be Fire/Fairy and I felt, not unreasonably I think, quite disappointed when that turned out not to be the case.

(...) I've never thought that Gyarados needed to be a Dragon-type, for instance. (...)

To give another example: Mega Glalie always struck me as wasted potential too. It's obviously stronger than base Glalie but it remaining simply pure Ice-typed feels like it's not mechanically adding anything new - and while Glalie itself doesn't have much Dark-type flavour beyond learning a few Dark moves, its Mega was a blank slate so could have been designed with that (or indeed any other type) in mind. Not every Pokemon changes type when they Mega Evolve, but I don't think Mega Glalie stands out in a particularly crowded field so I do think it could have benefited from the extra type. Again, it's moot now but at the time it wasn't an unreasonable immediate reaction to go "aw, why is this single-typed?"

G-Ponyta: I feel the issue with G-Ponyta is that it was caught between mechanics and story. Had G-Ponyta started as a Fairy and than gained the Psychic-type upon evolving into G-Rapidash I feel that would have worked fine. However, there was two things they wanted to do which made making G-Ponyta start pure Psychic make more sense... even though its clearly designed to be a Fairy-type from the start. They (1) wanted to reference unicorns horns are a mythical healer of poison (which wouldn't work so well if it started as pure Fairy as it's weak to Poison) and (2) goes along with Bede's story where he transitions from a Psychic-type trainer to Fairy-type.

Gyarados: I wonder if part of the reason people want it to be Dragon isn't just from the Carp jumping the Dragon Gate Legend but also so it wouldn't be part Flying-type. I forget whether it was confirmed or a rumor it was originally meant to be Water/Dragon but GF decided it would be too powerful so made it Water/Flying instead (though if true maybe would be why M-Gyarados is Water/Dark). Gyarados really doesn't get much from its Flying-type and would be better off without the double Electric weakness and Rock weakness. If they still don't want to make it Water/Dragon or a pure Water-type, I don't think Water/Dark was a bad choice.

M-Glalie: Honestly I think there was really nothing else they could do with Glalie that they hadn't done. Making it Dark (or Steel I see sometimes suggested) would just make it double weak to Fighting. MAYBE making it Ice/Fairy could have worked but would require a redesign, like bring back some of its Snorunt aesthetics and become a sort of snow spirit guide.

This should be required viewing for every modern Pokemon fan

You're right, that settles it, when it comes to revisiting the Unova region the games will be Black 3 & White 3!

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

I mean, I'd argue that Mega Glalie stood out sufficiently... simply because there were so few Physical Ice-types at that point. Refrigerate Return/Double-Edge was about as strong or even stronger than Mamoswine/Weavile's Choice Banded Icicle Crashes without getting locked in. Despite sharing the physical Ice/Ground combo with Mamoswine, it can differentiate itself due to getting Spikes and Refrigerate Explosion. Is that enough to stand out from Weavile, Mamoswine, Alolan Sandslash, and Cloyster (Kyurem-B and Mega Abomasnow don't really count as physical Ice competition)? I'd say yes.

A secondary type wouldn't really change its game plan given that it wants to use Ice/Ground coverage anyways, so it basically only adds a little bit of defensive utility (unless that secondary type is Ground). Not unless that second type is something really off the wall and corresponding coverage moves are given, which is a bit difficult to justify thematically.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I mean, I'd argue that Mega Glalie stood out sufficiently... simply because there were so few Physical Ice-types at that point. Refrigerate Return/Double-Edge was about as strong or even stronger than Mamoswine/Weavile's Choice Banded Icicle Crashes without getting locked in. Despite sharing the physical Ice/Ground combo with Mamoswine, it can differentiate itself due to getting Spikes and Refrigerate Explosion. Is that enough to stand out from Weavile, Mamoswine, Alolan Sandslash, and Cloyster? (Kyurem-B and Mega Abomasnow don't really count as physical Ice competition) I'd say yes.

A secondary type wouldn't really change its game plan given that it wants to use Ice/Ground coverage anyways, so it basically only adds a little bit of defensive utility (unless that secondary type is Ground). Not unless that second type is something really off the wall and corresponding coverage moves are given, which is a bit difficult to justify thematically.

I meant largely in the context of other Megas. I think you have to argue quite hard to justify why you'd give your Mega slot to Glalie specifically over other - better - Megas on a diverse team (in-game or competitively). On a Hail team I could see why it might be the best option.

But generally speaking, is it worth using instead of Mega Kangaskhan, or Mega Metagross, or Mega Mawile, or Mega Lopunny? I'd say probably not.

Not saying an additional type would necessarily change that (it's kind of getting into a different discussion) but the original point I was making was that when I saw that Mega Glalie stayed pure Ice, my initial reaction was "...oh." Yeah it's good the way it is, I'm not disputing that, but I'm making the case for why people might want or expect it not to remain a dual-type.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I personally don't want more Legends-type games at all. I think Legends was boring, a one and done game for me. Legends gutted so many hallmarks of the series it is practically unrecognizable (downplayed Trainer battles / no rival battles, no linear routes, little to no emphasis on making a balanced team outside the true final boss, obsessively focusing on catching em all when even from RBY on that was always a optional goal (outside of that weird Koga requirement in LGPE)), The counterparts really aren't that interesting - I'll take Scarlet and Violet's simple, but new storytelling over this any day of the week. I think Alola is like 50x better at what Legends was trying to do.

Alola has an actual narrative not shoved in at the very end

Alola has actual characters that don't feel needlessly edgy and cold, yeah most Pokemon games are smile town but it does a lot in making the world more friendly and enjoyable and reinforces escapism

Alola may force you to listen to its story, but it's an actual story, not vague platitudes that repeatedly say "you could get mauled and destroy our community!!!" and literally nothing else that isn't diet PMD (as ambivalent as I am to those games, they gave you time to bond with the minor NPCs, simple though they may be, so you're more impacted when the plot turned against you).

Pretty much the only thing I think Legends did okay to good with were the Noble battles

 

[Siggu]

I personally don't want more Legends-type games at all. I think Legends was boring, a one and done game for me. Legends gutted so many hallmarks of the series it is practically unrecognizable (downplayed Trainer battles / no rival battles, no linear routes, little to no emphasis on making a balanced team outside the true final boss, obsessively focusing on catching em all when even from RBY on that was always a optional goal (outside of that weird Koga requirement in LGPE))

I strongly agree up to this point - although at least LGPE Koga has an excuse in that catching is the main leveling up method. There, you catch because it's useful, not because the story suddenly wants to make Pokédex completion mandatory.

I'll take Scarlet and Violet's simple, but new storytelling over this any day of the week

I personally don't really care about the plot, and I think the plot and the setting are never important in a game, but from the way the story is handled gameplay-wise... I could potentially take it as well, if it were not from the fact that, despite splitting the story into three paths, they are all still mandatory to reach the post-game.

If you could choose to do only one and unlock everything while completely ignoring the ones that you can't be bothered to care about (like the story in the Alola games, if I could have ignored Lillie altogether and just go Trial after Trial and Kahuna after Kahuna it would have been fine) then great, I'll happily take that approach. I just want to become the Champion, after all.

But by splitting but still making them all mandatory... it's like they are taking the worst of both worlds. IMO, doing the three stories should just be a requirement to reach the Epilogue instead of the post-game, and give a different kind of reward (a Shiny Charm, maybe?) because you cared.

tl;dr Make the story optional and make exploration optional. If the player never wants to go off-road, they cannot be punished from it.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Pretty much the only thing I think Legends did okay to good with were the Noble battles

Sneaking in the most unpopular opinion of all right at the end haha. I enjoyed PLA but the Noble battles were mechanically awkward and extremely boring.

 

[Dragapult]

I've come to appreciate Blue a lot more in recent years, as he's the only rival in the first few generations who actually perseveres with trying to complete the Pokedex (as you'd expect from Professor Oak's grandchild). Not until Trevor in XY (who I'm also quite fond of) was there a rival so dedicated, all the other ones do a dreadful job.

• Brendan/May are stated to have already been a trainer for some time prior to meeting them in RSE, but eventually basically concede "you're better than me at both battling and collecting" and go home instead of continuing on. If you complete the Hoenn Dex in Emerald and get your Johto starter, they admit that it's your hard work that's getting them the National Dex.
• Dawn/Lucas straight-up tell you throughout DPP that they're not doing well at filling the Pokedex, and basically end up doing nothing by the end of the game except standing around (in BDSP they seem to be doing a bit better). Even their younger sister says that she wants you to do better than them!
• Neither Cheren or Bianca makes a great success of filling the Pokedex, though they do find success in other areas.

Going back to Blue, I was always intrigued by his line "I assembled teams that could beat any type", as I used to think that meant that he'd literally trained up multiple alternative teams. That's not something the original games really support though obviously he swaps out Pidgeot and Rhydon from his team in FRLG and has a slightly different roster in HGSS, and by SM/USUM he's got multiple different Pokemon in his pool of usable species at the Tree.

I especially like the addition FRLG made to his arc, as you meet him a couple of times in the Sevii Islands and find that he's still very much focused on completing the Pokedex, fittingly having already received an egg from the Daycare. He's found on Six Island having presumably just caught the Heracross he later uses, but we never learn what was in the egg he got. Could have been a Larvitar but equally he probably caught all manner of species, so maybe not. I guess his eventual declaration that "we can't complete the Pokedex by staying in one place [the Sevii Islands]" marks the point where he decides he'd rather focus on battling, though he does mention that he'll keep "collecting Pokemon at my own pace".

For all his arrogant bluster, he is legitimately really good at filling the Pokedex, since he mentions already having obtained 40 species on the SS Anne and later mentions that he's been looking at the listing to figure out which species evolve. Clever boy. Of all the rivals, he's overall probably the most accomplished: Champion, Gym Leader, battle facility leader, Pokedex completionist. Yeah. He's definitely pretty cool.

Blue loses his title in FRLG and comes back having replaced his Rhydon with a Tyranitar. Few things in the series are more badass.

I can't speak much for older fans of that time, and I definitely imagine a lot of the older playerbase had that latter sentiment out of resistance to change from what they once knew. Naturally since I was a kid at the time I don't know the full extent what the online fandom was like.

But what I can say as someone who was one of those kids who grew up with Diamond and Pearl (and Gen 4 as a whole) is that DP was incredibly popular back then among us kids. Pokemon saw a new insurgence in popularity at the time with the DS and DP's debut on it, much moreso than what it was like with RS, with the DS's insane popularity at the time Diamond and Pearl were pretty revolutionary back then. Just about everyone around me was playing it, Pokemon was cool among us kids.


I do imagine the older fanbase was probably more critical of it though (DP deservingly so admittedly), and that started the everlasting infinite loop of every Pokemon game getting shit on during its time and then years later when the kids who grew up with it join the internet fandom it gets praised as the greatest time of Pokemon that continues to persist to this day.

For people my age though? DP was the shit. Everyone around my age group was into it. It certainly helped that it was on an immensely popular portable console at the time but the Sinnoh era was quite popular at the time. Much, much moreso than Hoenn previously (Gen 3 is forever that awkward transitional generation in the grand scheme of things).

Take this from my perspective specifically, the perspective of someone who was a kid who started Pokemon with Gen 4 and grew up with Gen 4. Older fans and especially those who were engaged in online fandom back then will have a different perspective ofc.

I was in early adolescence at this point and can confirm all this 1000%. The first game I had ever personally owned was Sapphire though I had played multiple titles from Gens 1 and 2 through friends and also grew up with mons as a core part of my early childhood from merch to the anime to the TCG back when it wasn't just an asset class. Diamond and Pearl as much as I see them being written off today (and perhaps rightfully so, in some respects) are responsible for the popularity of the games and competitive scene as you know them today, full stop. Everyone had a copy of one or the other. Nintendo did not sell 18 million copies by accident.

 

[SwampySwampert]

Late to the party on this one but just started playing Sword and found this:

The level scaling in The Crown Tundra is completely wrong. I don’t have an issue with the Peony battle since the game similarly opens with an unwinnable/scripted battle with the box dog and it does play into his character of being a boisterous but powerful trainer, but IMO the Max Lair should have either given Pokémon at levels scaled to your badge count or just been locked behind the postgame. (I know it’s the speedrun strat, but Scarlet and Violet properly did this by locking the higher-star raids behind the postgame).

I have a Level 70 Suicune that I caught on my first trip just sitting in the box. I have two badges. In terms of story there is no way that I should ever be able to own this thing and have it obey me, but I could use it and just win no problem.

 

[pika pal]

(I know it’s the speedrun strat, but Scarlet and Violet properly did this by locking the higher-star raids behind the postgame).

SV also ties obedience to Badges + Capture level even on your own Pokemon, presumably to avoid someone being able to Steamroll the game by being carried through a high level raid with a local friend or simply wandering out and capturing overpowered Pokemon in the Open World Structure.

This could also go in the "Small things you like" thread for me because besides being a more elegant solution than "the Pokemon's too strong to throw a Ball at while battling" or the above mentioned Dynamax Adventure Legendaries, it's also a nice story-wise solution to the disobedient Pokemon scenario. I always wondered why they didn't take that approach since even the anime handled it that way with things like Ash's Charizard or Dawn's Mamoswine.

 

[Worldie]

SV also ties obedience to Badges + Capture level even on your own Pokemon

I actually think this is the closest they can ever go to have a "level cap" without forcing an actual level cap.

I don't think a forced level cap would ever be good for the games either ways. I think the option to purposely overlevel if you are willing to extra grind is fine in general in RPGs (assuming you don't overlevel without even trying...), but having ways that prevent "cheating the system" like this one is quite fair.

Also I'm a big fan of the speedrun of SV anyway, eventually I need to get around to do a flamigo domination run myself...

 

[SwampySwampert]

SV also ties obedience to Badges + Capture level even on your own Pokemon, presumably to avoid someone being able to Steamroll the game by being carried through a high level raid with a local friend or simply wandering out and capturing overpowered Pokemon in the Open World Structure.

This could also go in the "Small things you like" thread for me because besides being a more elegant solution than "the Pokemon's too strong to throw a Ball at while battling" or the above mentioned Dynamax Adventure Legendaries, it's also a nice story-wise solution to the disobedient Pokemon scenario. I always wondered why they didn't take that approach since even the anime handled it that way with things like Ash's Charizard or Dawn's Mamoswine.

For sure.

I had a Pokémon that I wanted but couldn’t catch because it was one level above what I had the badge for and it’s just clunky.

I actually think this is the closest they can ever go to have a "level cap" without forcing an actual level cap.

I don't think a forced level cap would ever be good for the games either ways. I think the option to purposely overlevel if you are willing to extra grind is fine in general in RPGs (assuming you don't overlevel without even trying...), but having ways that prevent "cheating the system" like this one is quite fair.

Also I'm a big fan of the speedrun of SV anyway, eventually I need to get around to do a flamigo domination run myself...

The game that always comes to mind for me (because this is one I've actually played) is The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim's DLC. You can go to the new areas at just Level 10 (Dawnguard) or straight out of the gate (Dragonborn, though the quest only starts after about a third of the main story) and there are some great rare spells/shouts/items to be had this way, but if you beeline right to it at the level you unlock it you're likely to get obliterated by high-level monsters unless you use exploits requiring knowledge of the game.

Heck, even Isle of Armor got the scaling pretty accurate. While you can just go straight to the island out of Wedgehurst (and in fact it's meant as an early-game area given the wild Pokemon levels there), Klara/Avery's team is roughly on par with Nessa in terms of levels (same goes for the tower trainers) and your Kubfu does need to like you before you can progress, so it feels a lot more natural without feeling like it's too easy or too impossible.

 

[Just A Seaking]

I personally don't want more Legends-type games at all. I think Legends was boring, a one and done game for me. Legends gutted so many hallmarks of the series it is practically unrecognizable (downplayed Trainer battles / no rival battles, no linear routes, little to no emphasis on making a balanced team outside the true final boss, obsessively focusing on catching em all when even from RBY on that was always a optional goal (outside of that weird Koga requirement in LGPE)

Not to invalidate your opinion - I certainly have my criticisms towards Legends, and it's not hard to see why someone may dislike it - but I don't see the problems with these things in and of themselves. Legends isn't a standard main-series game (in the same way that a game that SWSH or SV is), and I think it makes sense that it doesn't play like one. The de-emphasis on battling is supported by the setting, and I think catching taking its place makes much more sense when you consider the focus on exploration and the atmosphere of mystery that the game is aiming to establish. In particular, the mention of 'linear routes' strikes me as odd when the series is moving away from this pretty much entirely given the shift to an open-world structure.

...Not that these things don't need work, of course. I think the new battle system they implemented is really bad and weirdly unintuitive - changes to the damage formula, the Strong/Agile system, and the complete absence of spread moves just feels bad and turns Trainer battles into a series of revenge kills, which isn't very engaging, even in the context of a strictly single-player experience. I think the complete casualness with which you catch Pokemon also ends up devaluing individual catches a lot - neither PLA or SV strike a good balance here in my eyes, as the latter feels too slow for an open-world structure, too. I don't know how you'd go about fixing this. I also think the noble battles are dogshit, despite liking the idea of boss battles outside the context of standard battles. But personally, I'd rather see GF try to build on these things and improve them rather than abandon them entirely, especially after the glowing reception these games got. I think Legends makes for a very good structure to explore a region with a fresh coat of paint, and can add a lot to the original games in hindsight.

Again, my assertion here isn't "You're wrong to dislike these changes", because that's very subjective. What works for one person won't work for another, and that's totally fine. It's that changing up and experimenting with series tradition strikes me as a good thing, especially outside of the more 'standard' games in the series. With the previous flaws I mentioned ironed out, I'd be really excited to see a future Legends game for Unova or other regions.

...Actually, there is one thing I think mainline should take away from Legends - the usage of zones instead of an entire open world. I think this leads to much tighter and more involved level design overall, and keeps things from blending together too much like I find Paldea tends to do in my eyes. idk if this is unpopular or not, just felt like putting it out there while we're on the topic.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Not to invalidate your opinion - I certainly have my criticisms towards Legends, and it's not hard to see why someone may dislike it - but I don't see the problems with these things in and of themselves. Legends isn't a standard main-series game (in the same way that a game that SWSH or SV is), and I think it makes sense that it doesn't play like one. The de-emphasis on battling is supported by the setting, and I think catching taking its place makes much more sense when you consider the focus on exploration and the atmosphere of mystery that the game is aiming to establish. In particular, the mention of 'linear routes' strikes me as odd when the series is moving away from this pretty much entirely given the shift to an open-world structure.

...Not that these things don't need work, of course. I think the new battle system they implemented is really bad and weirdly unintuitive - changes to the damage formula, the Strong/Agile system, and the complete absence of spread moves just feels bad and turns Trainer battles into a series of revenge kills, which isn't very engaging, even in the context of a strictly single-player experience. I think the complete casualness with which you catch Pokemon also ends up devaluing individual catches a lot - neither PLA or SV strike a good balance here in my eyes, as the latter feels too slow for an open-world structure, too. I don't know how you'd go about fixing this. I also think the noble battles are dogshit, despite liking the idea of boss battles outside the context of standard battles. But personally, I'd rather see GF try to build on these things and improve them rather than abandon them entirely, especially after the glowing reception these games got. I think Legends makes for a very good structure to explore a region with a fresh coat of paint, and can add a lot to the original games in hindsight.

Again, my assertion here isn't "You're wrong to dislike these changes", because that's very subjective. What works for one person won't work for another, and that's totally fine. It's that changing up and experimenting with series tradition strikes me as a good thing, especially outside of the more 'standard' games in the series. With the previous flaws I mentioned ironed out, I'd be really excited to see a future Legends game for Unova or other regions.

...Actually, there is one thing I think mainline should take away from Legends - the usage of zones instead of an entire open world. I think this leads to much tighter and more involved level design overall, and keeps things from blending together too much like I find Paldea tends to do in my eyes. idk if this is unpopular or not, just felt like putting it out there while we're on the topic.

Great points! This post was a pleasure to read. The open world structure does work with the air of mystery, I'll definitely give you that.

I don't think I thought Legends was an outright bad game. I just think I'm more of a Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness kind of person when it comes to spinoffs - the battle system stays the same with a linear progression. Probably just a preference thing!

If anyone reading this likes Legends, I hope you continue to enjoy it! Maybe I'll go back to that game someday. It's just very rare for me to beat a Pokemon game and not have a desire to keep playing. And I'm definitely a completionist too - I fully completed Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time, also known as "the game you fully complete just to say you did it, even if full completion is remarkably unfulfilling."

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I think there's an inherent value to the core series of Pokemon branching out and doing more than just the classic mainline formula though: by doing more kinds of games than just the classic RBY styled traditional mainline game, they can more easily take advantage of Pokemon's inherently rapidfire mainline release schedule to have a wider variety of genres of games in the future, and as such it feels like not only is there something genuinely different the Pokemon mainline series can offer each year, making it feel less super repetitive, but that there can be different types of games that each appeal more to different target audiences and as such now there truly is something for everyone to enjoy each generation if they keep this up.

The cool thing about the previous generation with PLA in the picture is that not one of the mainline games were alike to each other in any way. You had Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee, a POGO-style game, then you had SwSh, a traditional classic mainline game (even if it was on the eh side overall as a game), its "enhanced edition" instead being DLC for the game itself, adding the bells and whistles you would usually get from a third version to the original game itself thus keeping SwSh relevant on the market, and then you had Legends: Arceus, a game set in ancient Sinnoh that is more Action RPG and aggressively single player and focuses more on ancient Sinnoh lore.

And all three co-existed with each other for the past year or so and each remained relevant in its own right as a unique experience that Pokemon could offer. PLA was popular amongst a lot of people because there are many people who liked the ARPG aspect of it and whatnot, but for those who didn't, SwSh was always there to exist as a mainline game, and now we have Scarlet and Violet which is more of a classic Pokemon mainline that is now the current "flagship" game of the current generation and the main competitive/PvP hub. I would like to note that over the last year despite PLA being the center of attention in marketing, SwSh continued to remain relevant because it was still the current competitive hub.

Because PLA was so different, despite SV releasing this year PLA still had a substantial number of sales this previous holiday season because it still stood out for its unique genre compared to classic mainlines like SwSh and SV, and remained relevant in the stores alongside SV despite SV being the big mainline release of this year. Classic games and Legends games in that regard don't fully invalidate the other's existence and can co-exist and appeal to different groups. People who have become tired of the classic genre can find value in Legends games, and whatnot, while Legends games can appeal to more hardcore gameplay people who want that.

So in that regard I wouldn't mind future Legends games continuing to exist, and in fact I would love for them to exist and to have them be made alongside traditional mainline titles. Don't fully get rid of the classic mainline games, they're a seller and still a tried-and-true success formula, but more deviant mainline titles that co-exist alongside them can be a great thing. I personally loved PLA, and would love to see another Legends game made this generation that can co-exist with Scarlet and Violet as a game for Gen 9. And in doing so improve upon things from Legends: Arceus.

I would even love for them to return to 2D Pokemon RPGs that go all in on being 2D Pokemon to bring back the classic 2D Pokemon charm, as an additional offshoot genre of mainline games in addition to Legends games and classic mainline games like SV. Have Scarlet and Violet serve as our flagship classic mainline Pokemon game for all of Gen 9, and then do some offshoot games. Legends games, 2D-Octopath-like games even, or Let's Go if they really want to. Pokemon can absolutely benefit from branching like this and making a variety of genres of games within a single generation. They can each appeal to a different group of people and all of them can co-exist alongside one another and stay relevant in the market for the whole generation until the next one comes.

But yeah just a bit of a rant: but I think I would actually love for more Legends games to be made so long as classic mainline ones continue to be made alongside them. Legends can exist as its own sub-series within the core series while traditional mainline games continue to exist, and I would also like to see them make even more sub-genres and experiment with genres of RPGs for mainline Pokemon than just the classic mainline.

Really I think the last generation was the beginning of Pokemon becoming a more varied series from here on out, and I think that's a nice approach to take instead of an infinite repetitive loop of the exact same thing over and over again every year.