Unpopular opinions

Personally I find Close combat to be just a little to easy to use. Like, if you have it then there’s no reason not to use it because it’s just so good.

Stuff like Superpower requires a little more behind it as it wasn’t spammable, HJK had a decent risk vs reward to it, Jump Kick was the same but at an earlier level and made for good coverage back in the day for some Mons. But close combat just doesn’t care, it’s a fire and forget move because it’s risk is so negigable for a lot of its users, and it’s a little boring because of it.
 
Castersvarog said:
Personally I find Close combat to be just a little to easy to use. Like, if you have it then there’s no reason not to use it because it’s just so good.

Stuff like Superpower requires a little more behind it as it wasn’t spammable, HJK had a decent risk vs reward to it, Jump Kick was the same but at an earlier level and made for good coverage back in the day for some Mons. But close combat just doesn’t care, it’s a fire and forget move because it’s risk is so negigable for a lot of its users, and it’s a little boring because of it.
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And? Most moves for types that aren't Fighting (or Rock) are completely without drawbacks.
pika pal said:
Most of what I'm able to discern from the response seems to be a lot of semi-sarcastic lambasting of the CC talk. Examples and my responses
  • Mega Aggron you can't CC, i.e. not having a strong Coverage for a very tanky Physical Wall. Two points I have here: first is that Mega Aggron is SUPPOSED to be hard to break physically with Special as an Achilles' Heel (and even then it can't soak Physical hits forever without recovery); besides this, Close Combat's stupid good distribution started in Gen 8 when it became a TM, after the example mon was Dexited and making it a bad choice for such a comparison even if not for my first note.
  • Fighting lacks a good middle-ground Physical move akin to Dragon Claw or Surf, hence the "do you want Koraidon to use Body Press?" point. Ignoring that Koraidon has Low Kick for Ubers and Collision Course in general, the lack of a balanced Middle ground move doesn't make the solution to give everything the extremely strong option, as that is still a negative scenario regardless of alternatives. The thing I'd advocate there is to make a move to serve this purpose and distribute that.
  • 100/110 BP "would legitimately be a drop in gamefreak's effectiveness" is effectively saying nerfing Close Combat would be a bad move by Gamefreak, which is subjective but moreso doesn't really refute any argument made about why Close Combat as-is is a concern, so this particular sentence simply does nothing.
  • The subsequent lines seem to be attacking a hypothetical (or more cynically, strawman) user who wants Close Combat nerfed because its distribution hurts the viability of said hypothetical user's favorite Pokemon, when no one has even discussed a specific user, much less victim, of that wide distribution beyond Pokemon like Mienshao or Blaziken always taking CC because it's more reliable than something like HJK (and they're Fighting STAB users so doesn't change things like the more contentious cover users)
  • Regarding the idea that every type having a 90 BP 100 Accuracy attack akin to Flamethrower/Surf/Ice Beam etc. would be lame and homogenous in moveset. Every type not needing the same "kind" of moves is a topic that has come up and I don't fully disagree with, but is again not the full scope here: the criticism is that Close Combat is too low-risk/high-reward as a Fighting move to be distributed as if it is a 90 BP "generic" attack option rather than stronger than the lower-accuracy Nuke attacks. The more accurate point would be Close Combat at its current strength should be less narrowly given, or if it is given out this widely it should be a weaker move for coverage.
  • Second-to-Last point is stating Fighting is a great Coverage type (true) and that nerfing Fighting-Coverage access would weaken said Non-STAB coverage users. This is correct but also not an objective negative such that it being the case is an argument against reigning the move in.
  • Final point is stating this change won't happen because Gamefreak doesn't balance around Singles, which again doesn't affect whether it is a good or bad thing in singles, only that Gamefreak refuses to do anything regarding it even if it is a problem there because it is not problematic in VGC.
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Close Combat being weaker than it is would legitimately make Fighting types bad again, the only moves with less 120 power that lower any of the user's stats are Hammer Arm (another Fighting move), Ice Hammer (Ice type Hammer Arm), and Spin Out same goes for recoil moves aside from Take Down and the also Fighting type (and genuinely always atrociously bad) Submission. Further more, no move that lowers the user's stats period has less than 100% accuracy.
Nerfing Close Combat in any way would genuinely make it and any Fighting types useless.
 
AztecCroc said:
Nerfing Close Combat in any way would genuinely make it and any Fighting types useless.
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Tbh I don't think they advocate for CC nerf per se, rather, it not be as widespread as it is.

To some degree I understand, in gen 7 the widely distributed move was Superpower, not CC, which has obvious drawbacks. Many fighting types would much rather just run Low Kick instead due to how bad dropping attack is.
 
It'd be funny if GF made it so if a mon wasn't a certain type, the move then has worse drawbacks
Like, CC used by a none fighting type would lower attack or speed alongside defenses
Imagine if using EQ as a none ground lowered speed, Ice beam lower SpAtk, etc
Heck, buff normal by having it not afflicted with these drawbacks. It'd highlight it being the true neutral type
Granted with Tera or Protean this CAN be circumnavigated...but then using a tera that way will be a drawback in of itself
Also this can be slippery in overdoing nerfing. CC is 120BP so that's fine, meanwhile Ice Beam is only 90, so that shouldn't be as harsh as I said
 
Sonikku A said:
It'd be funny if GF made it so if a mon wasn't a certain type, the move then has worse drawbacks
Like, CC used by a none fighting type would lower attack or speed alongside defenses
Imagine if using EQ as a none ground lowered speed, Ice beam lower SpAtk, etc
Heck, buff normal by having it not afflicted with these drawbacks. It'd highlight it being the true neutral type
Granted with Tera or Protean this CAN be circumnavigated...but then using a tera that way will be a drawback in of itself
Also this can be slippery in overdoing nerfing. CC is 120BP so that's fine, meanwhile Ice Beam is only 90, so that shouldn't be as harsh as I said
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I think there's also room to give (non-damage) buffs to STAB moves with this system in addition to nerfing off-type moves. Toxic having perfect accuracy when used by Poison types is a good example (or at least was when there was enough non-Poison Toxic users for 90% to be noticeable).
 
Ironmage said:
I think there's also room to give (non-damage) buffs to STAB moves with this system in addition to nerfing off-type moves. Toxic having perfect accuracy when used by Poison types is a good example (or at least was when there was enough non-Poison Toxic users for 90% to be noticeable).
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You know what, I was mostly bullshitting, but having both of this would help minimize hyper coverage spam
Lord knows Ice types needed it, too many waters stealing Ice Beam
 
i always thought it hilarious some of the move access Lapras, Starmie, and Weezing got, things like Thunderbolt (Flamethrower makes at least a lil sense for Weezing since he's comprised of gas) and such (esp earlier gens/remakes of)

obv my sig says I'm a Weezing stan so I appreciate the lob [to make a lil more viable for playthroughs] but all those getting that move and certain others made no sense lmao.
one of those "it's only unpopular cus it's right, but no one will say it cus we all appreciate it" lmao.
 
yureion said:
i always thought it hilarious some of the move access Lapras, Starmie, and Weezing got, things like Thunderbolt (Flamethrower makes at least a lil sense for Weezing since he's comprised of gas) and such (esp earlier gens/remakes of)

obv my sig says I'm a Weezing stan so I appreciate the lob [to make a lil more viable for playthroughs] but all those getting that move and certain others made no sense lmao.
one of those "it's only unpopular cus it's right, but no one will say it cus we all appreciate it" lmao.
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The weird thing is Lapras losing Solarbeam after Gen I (transfer aside). Like, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Nightmare, and Curse are fine but a Grass move? Nah, too much. And you'd think Starmie of all things should get Solarbeam too.
 
Sonikku A said:
Lapras is described as stealth mystical/hyper intelligent, so Psychic and ghost moves don't seem off
Thunderbolt one can argue cuz of having a built in lightningrod (horn)

So Solarbeam seems off...as nothing indicates it needs to sun bask for a marine reptiles

.....which makes Starmie having Tbolt makes NO sense
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Starmie I think is half "Psychic have Special Pools like Normals" and half "is it a Fish or an Alien" thing from its Stadium Dex entry for having Thunderbolt.
 
On the topic of Water-type stuff, I feel like Wave Crash was an unnecessary physical Water addition. Compared to physical Fire, Flare Blitz is the only true choice physically-attacking Fire types usually have (unless they get Sacred Fire, but why would GF do that?) because (almost) every other physical Fire move is garb — and compared to physical Grass, Wood Hammer has Leaf Blade that it keeps an eye on because it has a competent enough 90 BP that can keep up with Wood Hammer's 120 BP. Wave Crash's ~50% jump in base power means Liquidation and especially Waterfall become difficult to consider on a mon that happens to learn all three like Floatzel (which has a small enough physical movepool to sometimes actually have room for both Wave Crash and Liquidation/Waterfall). I would have rather seen a Water-type Overheat/Leaf Storm clone instead.

At least they could have kept Wave Crash stuck in Legends: Arceus like Ice Ball, Silver Wind, and Ominous Wind.
 
leafsaber47 said:
On the topic of Water-type stuff, I feel like Wave Crash was an unnecessary physical Water addition. Compared to physical Fire, Flare Blitz is the only true choice physically-attacking Fire types usually have (unless they get Sacred Fire, but why would GF do that?) because (almost) every other physical Fire move is garb — and compared to physical Grass, Wood Hammer has Leaf Blade that it keeps an eye on because it has a competent enough 90 BP that can keep up with Wood Hammer's 120 BP. Wave Crash's ~50% jump in base power means Liquidation and especially Waterfall become difficult to consider on a mon that happens to learn all three like Floatzel (which has a small enough physical movepool to actually have room for both Wave Crash and Liquidation/Waterfall). I would have rather seen a Water-type Overheat/Leaf Storm clone instead, like the romhack Pokémon Vega had (and Procyon/Deneb by that extension), in which the Overheat/Leaf Storm clone move was called Deluge.

At least they could have kept Wave Crash stuck in Legends: Arceus like Ice Ball, Silver Wind, and Ominous Wind.
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Wait.....
Aren't rom talking banned? Regardless wave crash was kinda unnecessary I agree. Water was already good enough
 
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Epicgamergod69 said:
Wait.....
Aren't rom talking banned? Regardless wave crash was kinda unnecessary
Aren't roms like not open for dis
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...I don't think discussion of Pokémon rom(-)hacks isn't allowed because there's a thread in this sub-forum that brings up the mention of them quite often — but definitely not ROMs of official Pokémon games (including but not limited to distribution of them).
Regardless, I edited the rom(-)hack mention out.
 
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leafsaber47 said:
On the topic of Water-type stuff, I feel like Wave Crash was an unnecessary physical Water addition. Compared to physical Fire, Flare Blitz is the only true choice physically-attacking Fire types usually have (unless they get Sacred Fire, but why would GF do that?) because (almost) every other physical Fire move is garb — and compared to physical Grass, Wood Hammer has Leaf Blade that it keeps an eye on because it has a competent enough 90 BP that can keep up with Wood Hammer's 120 BP. Wave Crash's ~50% jump in base power means Liquidation and especially Waterfall become difficult to consider on a mon that happens to learn all three like Floatzel (which has a small enough physical movepool to sometimes actually have room for both Wave Crash and Liquidation/Waterfall). I would have rather seen a Water-type Overheat/Leaf Storm clone instead.

At least they could have kept Wave Crash stuck in Legends: Arceus like Ice Ball, Silver Wind, and Ominous Wind.
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I think Wave Crash works fine as a signature move for the Basculin line even outside of Legends since they're heavily associated with recoil moves, but I agree that it's overbearing for a non-signature move.
 
i don't mind overbearing moves When the distribution is low and mostly to pokémons who could use the boost - it's not like floatzel was already this incredible threat who became even better with wave crash. also, recoil is an effective enough drawback - in fact, so effective that the weaker wild charge is largely considered a bad move because of it. floatzel doesn't mind because it won't survive hits anyway, but dondozo also has it and basically never uses it. i don't want it to become a TM or anything, but it existing on some mons is fine. there are more overbearing moves out there imo
 
While sometimes moves are hard to figure out why certain stuff learns it and others don't, Wave Crash is shockingly transparent. It shows up on Basculin and Empoleon(the only mons to get it in LA), a couple mons that suck(Floatzel, Bruxish), and Paldean Tauros, Quaqueval, Palafin, and Dondozo. So it's basically purely a way to give new mons a powerful move so that they'll be relevant. There's no greater flavor reason to consider, and conversely it doesn't end up on every new Water, just physical attackers. The question is "were these mons introduced after the move was and do they want a powerful physical water STAB"? If so, they get Wave Crash. Otherwise, it's Surf/Waterfall.
 
Hugin said:
While sometimes moves are hard to figure out why certain stuff learns it and others don't, Wave Crash is shockingly transparent. It shows up on Basculin and Empoleon(the only mons to get it in LA), a couple mons that suck(Floatzel, Bruxish), and Paldean Tauros, Quaqueval, Palafin, and Dondozo. So it's basically purely a way to give new mons a powerful move so that they'll be relevant. There's no greater flavor reason to consider, and conversely it doesn't end up on every new Water, just physical attackers. The question is "were these mons introduced after the move was and do they want a powerful physical water STAB"? If so, they get Wave Crash. Otherwise, it's Surf/Waterfall.
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I'm expecting Feraligatr and possibly Swampert to pick it up next week too. Mostly Feraligatr, since it hasn't had a proper moveset in the Switch era yet, and Chip Away no longer exists meaning it's got an open move slot at level 37. BDSP put Low Kick there, but SV has ignored BDSP's moveset adjustments entirely and it wasn’t even a new move, Low Kick's an egg move for the Totodile line.
 
AztecCroc said:
I'm expecting Feraligatr and possibly Swampert to pick it up next week too. Mostly Feraligatr, since it hasn't had a proper moveset in the Switch era yet, and Chip Away no longer exists meaning it's got an open move slot at level 37. BDSP put Low Kick there, but SV has ignored BDSP's moveset adjustments entirely and it wasn’t even a new move, Low Kick's an egg move for the Totodile line.
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Doesn't really make too much of a difference for Feraligatr imo, its running sflo liquidation anyways
 
As a fellow Feraligatr fan I also think it would be pretty neat if it gained access to Wave Crash and/or Jet Punch, even if Jet Punch feels more like a better fit for something like Swampert by comparison.

Speaking of starter Pokémon and signature moves, I also think Meowscarada should learn Wicked Blow. It sounds crazy at first, but then you remember Flower Trick is pretty much just Grass-Type Wicked Blow anyways so it just kind of works as possible dual STAB.
 
bdt2002 said:
Speaking of starter Pokémon and signature moves, I also think Meowscarada should learn Wicked Blow. It sounds crazy at first, but then you remember Flower Trick is pretty much just Grass-Type Wicked Blow anyways so it just kind of works as possible dual STAB.
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But if we give Wicked Blow to another Pokémon, wouldn't it make sense for Surging Strikes to also end up on a Starter Pokémon's movelist, e.g. Feraligatr?
You can't have one move getting wider distribution and not its counterpart.
Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire is a weird exception, so GF, please give Lugia's Aeroblast to one of the Legendary Birds for the sake of parity.
 
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