Unpopular opinions

[jordanthejq12]

I know it's a sensitive problem outside Asia...

See: Jynx.

I think it's important to keep in mind a couple of things. On our end, the home market certainly has its own cultural norms that are quite different from those in the West. However, Pokemon's other big market is the US, where issues of race have been and remain to this day a huge part of society. So there's a bit of perspective.

Basically, GF has to remember they're not just selling to Japan, and we have to remember that we're not just buying in the West.

 

[Cresselia~~]

See: Jynx.

I think it's important to keep in mind a couple of things. On our end, the home market certainly has its own cultural norms that are quite different from those in the West. However, Pokemon's other big market is the US, where issues of race have been and remain to this day a huge part of society. So there's a bit of perspective.

Basically, GF has to remember they're not just selling to Japan, and we have to remember that we're not just buying in the West.

Yes, Jynx was originally black in order to make her extremely ugly. Big mouth, large lips, black skin, fat = everything opposite to what people desire.
Obviously, they weren't thinking about race when they did that.

Yes but the XY anime is decidedly very Japanese otaku orientated.
Tell the truth, the anime hasn't been selling much in the West ever since Johto, and look at them: they aren't even trying. (Lame voice casts, for one)
I'm totally not surprised if they aren't aiming at the Western market at all.
Most people on English forums seem to complain about the anime since like Johto. I just don't see that the anime earns a lot in the West.

The games sell very well in the West, sure-- more than how much they sell in Asia. But anime? It sells outside Asia?

 

[Norne]

Ganguro yuki ona, it's not supposed to be ugly, it's supposed to be a comedic take on a myth and a fashion statement.

And as far as I know Sanrio Japan was on talk about opening an animation studio overseas.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Ganguro yuki ona, it's not supposed to be ugly, it's supposed to be a comedic take on a myth and a fashion statement.

And as far as I know Sanrio Japan was on talk about opening an animation studio overseas.

I mean the Pokemon anime. Is it still big in the West?
I wonder where I can get some statistics on Pokemon anime nowadays.

Jynx is more like Ganguro, Yamamba and Yama-uba.
I think it's intentionally ugly, otherwise she doesn't have to be fat.
That's why in 3 different mangas, she thinks she's very beautiful (which is obviously part of the joke), to the point that she shows signs of narcissism.
In 4 koma manga, they actually took it to a whole new level: her face is scary enough to scare away thieves, so no one steals from her house.

Man, I wish there are English translations of these mangas. I feel like you are missing a lot without manga depictions. Everytime I read English fanfictions, I feel that the Pokemon personalities are all over the place, instead of what the creators wanted them to be.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Man, I wish there are English translations of these mangas. I feel like you are missing a lot without manga depictions. Everytime I read English fanfictions, I feel that the Pokemon personalities are all over the place, instead of what the creators wanted them to be.

Most manga (damn it, when are we getting ReBurst?) actually are available in English. Adventures in particular is probably the most popular source of characterization outside the games or anime (never mind the often drastic changes to certain characters, such as the Kanto E4). I've definitely wanted to read Adventures, and I'm not even that big of a manga fan.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Unpopular opinion: I actually like how Jynx is ugly. The Jynx jokes in mangas are funny. And I want her to stay ugly.
So as Stunfisk. Stunfisk is immensely popular in Japan because it is ugly, and a good object to step on and sit on.
Jynx isn't that popular though. But I see Japanese people draw her in jokes. And they are usually funny.

Most manga (damn it, when are we getting ReBurst?) actually are available in English. Adventures in particular is probably the most popular source of characterization outside the games or anime (never mind the often drastic changes to certain characters, such as the Kanto E4). I've definitely wanted to read Adventures, and I'm not even that big of a manga fan.

Really? Even 4 koma?
Are they difficult to buy though?

But how come in English fanfictions, the Pokemon personalities differ so much from the mangas?

 

[jordanthejq12]

But how come in English fanfictions, the Pokemon personalities differ so much from the mangas?

Because that's the point. It's the author's personal interpretation of how a Pokemon is. Besides, humans vary widely in personalities despite all being of one species, so why shouldn't Pokemon? Heck, something as simple as a Nature indicates intraspecial behavioral variability--which, as a game mechanic, is canon.

But a lot of published fanfic is absolute crap, so don't lose any sleep over it.

Really? Even 4 koma?
Are they difficult to buy though?

I don't know if 4Koma has been translated. Finding the manga is a problem, as they're not exactly being sold at every newsstand in America, but I would imagine any place that sells manga would have Adventures or Pocket Monsters at least.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Cresselia~~:

Hide

Iris: Essentially. Actually it's more she acted like she knew more than Ash and treated him like a kid, hence her catchphrase. However she was just as likely to make the same mistakes as Ash not to mention she had some emotional/mental baggage which, while not a bad thing for a character to have as it makes them a more rounded character and have something to overcome, didn't curb her superior attitude.

Tone Of Character: As I said I was joking about the sexist/racist thing (mostly), but as others have noted for quality of the show they really shouldn't let that guide their character creation. As I said, after XY they're gonna replace Serena with the next female opinion. Are they going to copy & paste Serena's attitude onto her? Actually, I'm going to say it's just coincidence Serena just so happens to fit the "waifu otaku" crowd. Reason they didn't use the female companion for BW is because she was older looking thus they decided to replace her with Iris probably seeing story potential with her and they could have Drayden by the Opelucid Gym Leader (of course those plans changed).
Also, not that I doubt you, considering there's plenty of dark skinned characters in anime I do wonder how much of this "not liking dark skinned" goes. Like I can understand dark skinned characters seeming foreign/exotic, but as a social status?

No Other Lisia: Well actually I was talking about Lisia from *checks Google for other characters named Lisia*... well after scrolling past Pokemon's Lisia I couldn't really find another character named Lisia....
Of course I'm talking about Lisia from Pokemon! Who other pop idol Pokemon do you know of? Lisia seems purposely made to appeal to the "waifu otaku" you were talking about.

pika pal:
This is how I personally see it:

Misty: Probably selected due to being the first significant female character of your age you encounter in the original games. Misty's personality was all decided by the game by calling her the "Tomboy Mermaid". Thus in the anime she is portrayed as a tomboy, adding onto that she has 3 older girly and somewhat ditzy sisters to explain why she isn't the Cerulean Gym Leader. The choice was more out of limitation and she was kept through Johto as they reunited the group of Ash, Misty, & Brock and there was still no other girl character they could really replace her with (and her sisters were still running the gym).
May: With the games now having a female character they decide best way to promote the game is by switching out he female character to shake up the group dynamic. May was made more girly but still a tomboy with how successful Misty was. Not so sure how tsundere May was, yeah she got super angry when she at times but those were rare and more of a character quirk than a tsundere which Misty and Jessie are shown to be.
Dawn: With the previous girl characters being outdoorsy tomboyish characters they decided to make Dawn more girly girl, possibly inspired by her design which was more girly than previous female playable characters.
Iris: After regressing down the girly character ladder, and with the BW female being too old to use as a companion, they instead switched focus to Iris. A thing about Misty and Iris is that they both have a character in the games so there's something to go off of. I would say Iris in the anime acted like Iris does in the games being forceful and opinionated. They just needed to add more on top of that like they did with Misty which was probably easier being there was a mentor to take her place in the Gym. Also with how BW was being treated like a reboot of sorts so what better way to do so by having a somewhat similar character group dynamic as the original.
Serena: Using the female playable character again and based on her looks went for a girly girl. Now giving her the "waifu" story does seem like they're appealing to the shipping crowd who ship Ash with the female companion no matter what. This time they're having that as the point of Serena's character which is a rather easy way to have her go traveling with him and later figuring out what to do with her.

So it seems more like if the female companion is a character in the game they have a similar attitude as their game counterpart, but if they're the female playable character their attitude is somewhat determined by their design.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Cresselia~~:

Hide

Iris: Essentially. Actually it's more she acted like she knew more than Ash and treated him like a kid, hence her catchphrase. However she was just as likely to make the same mistakes as Ash not to mention she had some emotional/mental baggage which, while not a bad thing for a character to have as it makes them a more rounded character and have something to overcome, didn't curb her superior attitude.

Tone Of Character: As I said I was joking about the sexist/racist thing (mostly), but as others have noted for quality of the show they really shouldn't let that guide their character creation. As I said, after XY they're gonna replace Serena with the next female opinion. Are they going to copy & paste Serena's attitude onto her? Actually, I'm going to say it's just coincidence Serena just so happens to fit the "waifu otaku" crowd. Reason they didn't use the female companion for BW is because she was older looking thus they decided to replace her with Iris probably seeing story potential with her and they could have Drayden by the Opelucid Gym Leader (of course those plans changed).
Also, not that I doubt you, considering there's plenty of dark skinned characters in anime I do wonder how much of this "not liking dark skinned" goes. Like I can understand dark skinned characters seeming foreign/exotic, but as a social status?

No Other Lisia: Well actually I was talking about Lisia from *checks Google for other characters named Lisia*... well after scrolling past Pokemon's Lisia I couldn't really find another character named Lisia....
Of course I'm talking about Lisia from Pokemon! Who other pop idol Pokemon do you know of? Lisia seems purposely made to appeal to the "waifu otaku" you were talking about.

pika pal:
This is how I personally see it:

Misty: Probably selected due to being the first significant female character of your age you encounter in the original games. Misty's personality was all decided by the game by calling her the "Tomboy Mermaid". Thus in the anime she is portrayed as a tomboy, adding onto that she has 3 older girly and somewhat ditzy sisters to explain why she isn't the Cerulean Gym Leader. The choice was more out of limitation and she was kept through Johto as they reunited the group of Ash, Misty, & Brock and there was still no other girl character they could really replace her with (and her sisters were still running the gym).
May: With the games now having a female character they decide best way to promote the game is by switching out he female character to shake up the group dynamic. May was made more girly but still a tomboy with how successful Misty was. Not so sure how tsundere May was, yeah she got super angry when she at times but those were rare and more of a character quirk than a tsundere which Misty and Jessie are shown to be.
Dawn: With the previous girl characters being outdoorsy tomboyish characters they decided to make Dawn more girly girl, possibly inspired by her design which was more girly than previous female playable characters.
Iris: After regressing down the girly character ladder, and with the BW female being too old to use as a companion, they instead switched focus to Iris. A thing about Misty and Iris is that they both have a character in the games so there's something to go off of. I would say Iris in the anime acted like Iris does in the games being forceful and opinionated. They just needed to add more on top of that like they did with Misty which was probably easier being there was a mentor to take her place in the Gym. Also with how BW was being treated like a reboot of sorts so what better way to do so by having a somewhat similar character group dynamic as the original.
Serena: Using the female playable character again and based on her looks went for a girly girl. Now giving her the "waifu" story does seem like they're appealing to the shipping crowd who ship Ash with the female companion no matter what. This time they're having that as the point of Serena's character which is a rather easy way to have her go traveling with him and later figuring out what to do with her.

So it seems more like if the female companion is a character in the game they have a similar attitude as their game counterpart, but if they're the female playable character their attitude is somewhat determined by their design.

Dark skinned characters only started to appear in the Pokemon anime after Pokemon became global.
Back in Gen 1, there were no black people, and it's common for any Japanese anime to not have black people.
Though it's more to do with Japan has very few black people, rather than aesthetic reasons.
Still, dark skinned females hardly ever become main characters in Japanese animation. I can't think of one that has a major role apart from Chloe Einsbern from Prisma Illya.
Dark skinned isn't that much to do with social status nowadays, but it's still ingrained that dark skin is not pretty and is undesired.
Whitening cream is still one of the most sold skin care products in East Asia, including Japan.
It is actually still very important when it comes to dating.

I think a better indicator of that is... look at the PVC anime figures that are made. Pretty much 90% of the PVC figure females have pale skin.
I just went to a figure mall today, and I didn't see a single dark skinned figure.
I wouldn't use Pokemon as an indicator for that, because Pokemon has to cater the international audiences.
But for most other Japanese animation, you can't find dark skinned people. Usually, the cast is majority Japanese, with one or two Europeans or biracial females, and they are usually the popular ones. Most of the dark skinned people are either tanned Europeans/ Japanese, or Indians, and they are not people with major roles.

The BJD industry is another thing. Dark skinned dolls do not sell well in Japan, so the companies stopped making tanned versions of the dolls. Dark skinned dolls are also almost always limited edition dolls.

 

[stage7_4]

The pokemon anime is really suffering (as far as diversity or ingenuity or progressive writing) from the overarching taint of Anime in general, which has made any progressive changes (what little their were) disappear or reverse. Anime in general is starting to enter a dark age, just like western animation was from the late 1990's-ish to somewhere around 2010. I'd rather say anime is stuck in a negative feedback loop, where the causes are also the byproducts. Focus on old cliches reinforces the foundation, but also alienates new viewers, which causes studios to suffer or go bankrupt which makes the survivors try to reinforce the foundation and so on and so forth. Because Western has entered a new renaissance it makes the cracks in anime appear deeper, when it used to be the reverse.

I'm not saying western is better (we've suffered plenty of dark ages too) but it's a little undeniable that our collective bar has been raised while anime's... hasn't yet. Can you really imagine Star Vs. the Forces of Evil, Steven Universe, Korra (and the original Avatar too), Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, [that show you love, you know the one I'm talking about, that one! No, not that other one. Nobody watches that], in post 9/11 2002?

Before I get 100 messages about exceptions and standouts on both sides of the Pacific, let me state that there will ALWAYS be standouts and exceptions. It's more an overarching feeling that's only obvious in retrospect, not a big target you can point a finger too. Individually you can find some bright spots but as a group... your opinions may vary.

Again, nobody is perfect. And as a US citizen I know we are as flawed as the rest, sometimes worse. But we're trying, while I look at anime still using outdated tropes like "Yamato Nadeshiko" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YamatoNadeshiko) I just sink a bit inside.

 

[precita]

1. Pokemon Showcases are popular in Japan and East Asia, and is the thing that keeps grown men to watch the anime. It corresponds with the popularity of Idol performance animes in which are currently way more popular than magical girl animes.

The Japanese like idol stuff which is why anime like Love Live is popular over there. The Contests were incredibly popular in the anime for the same reason.

2. Serena is the most popular female in Japan and East Asia ever. She is said to have the best personality, will become a good waifu, and has the best fashion sense.

This I'm going to disagree with, since both May and Dawn were also incredibly popular in Japan. I think you're mixing up "current gen girl" with most popular. Of course now Serena is going to be the most talked about female in Japan, she's the current lead. But this changes everytime a female comes and goes. 5 years ago Dawn was the most popular, years before that it was May, etc.

You are right in Japan favoring more girly and cutesy female leads over tomboyish ones though. Misty and Iris are far less popular in Japan than May/Dawn/Serena.

In the U.S. Misty is probably still the most popular simply due to most of the fanbase growing up with Kanto and the popularity of Pokeshipping. May is probably the next most popular because she was part of the anime 13 years ago back in 2002, and the Hoenn saga has the second highest ratings in the U.S. after Kanto/Johto.

Also you have to realize Pokemon has an ever changing fanbase of new kids. Most of the original fandom who started with Kanto aren't watching the show anymore. Hell even the people who grew up with Hoenn and DP have likely moved on from the anime. New kids come into the show every gen having never watched the previous series, so they don't know or care about the older female leads much.

 

[Cresselia~~]

The Japanese like idol stuff which is why anime like Love Live is popular over there. The Contests were incredibly popular in the anime for the same reason.



This I'm going to disagree with, since both May and Dawn were also incredibly popular in Japan. I think you're mixing up "current gen girl" with most popular. Of course now Serena is going to be the most talked about female in Japan, she's the current lead. But this changes everytime a female comes and goes. 5 years ago Dawn was the most popular, years before that it was May, etc.

You are right in Japan favoring more girly and cutesy female leads over tomboyish ones though. Misty and Iris are far less popular in Japan than May/Dawn/Serena.

In the U.S. Misty is probably still the most popular simply due to most of the fanbase growing up with Kanto and the popularity of Pokeshipping. May is probably the next most popular because she was part of the anime 13 years ago back in 2002, and the Hoenn saga has the second highest ratings in the U.S. after Kanto/Johto.

Also you have to realize Pokemon has an ever changing fanbase of new kids. Most of the original fandom who started with Kanto aren't watching the show anymore. Hell even the people who grew up with Hoenn and DP have likely moved on from the anime. New kids come into the show every gen having never watched the previous series, so they don't know or care about the older female leads much.

I don't think so.
Back when Dawn was the lead, many Japanese people complained about how she's annoying, especially when she cries.
She also received some criticism on how she's wearing a scarf and winter boots, but wears no sleeves top. (Costume that doesn't make sense)
Platina doesn't have the same problem though.

May was criticized for her breast size.

But I don't see any criticism towards Serena at all.

 

[precita]

LOL, what? People will nitpick anything about any female character. Serena has plenty of criticisms in terms of her lack of screentime and focus in the anime for the first year of XY. Her character as a whole is also nowhere as popular as past leads, its mainly the shipping that has people interested in her to see where it goes.

People who don't like shipping or waifu's obviously won't care about Serena much. It all depends what people like about a character.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I don't think so.
Back when Dawn was the lead, many Japanese people complained about how she's annoying, especially when she cries.
She also received some criticism on how she's wearing a scarf and winter boots, but wears no sleeves top. (Costume that doesn't make sense)
Platina doesn't have the same problem though.

May was criticized for her breast size.

But I don't see any criticism towards Serena at all.

So what's their opinion on the Pokemon, you know, the main focus of the show?

 

[Darth Manaphy]

As for Dawn's fashion sense, I honestly see no problem with it. I've seen a LOT of people over here wearing a similar style...ESPECIALLY wearing winter boots with warmer weather outfits. That's typically a spring/fall outfit for me.

I see May's problem as something because they kept saying that, like Ash, she was TEN YEARS OLD! Man, her breasts were larger than all my exs', and they ranged in age from 16-22. Of course when the series first aired I had no problems with them, but then it hit me how young she was supposed to be...

Misty probably wins in America because she was the first girl. It also didn't help that 4Kids added a lot of extra things that implied that she was girlier than she let on. And who of us remember her image song that they produced that practically had her profess her secret love for Ash?

I have to say that for myself, I probably disliked Iris the most. It's probably because she didn't really seem "necessary" or unique for the adventure. She was essentially a more annoying version of Misty without any of the hidden depths that we were told Misty had. And, unlike Misty who really kept with her theme aside from Togepi, Iris really didn't stick with the whole "I'm a dragon trainer!" schtick with her Excadrill and Emolga (who was like super annoying too). Cilan didn't seem to be any better if only because he seemed again to be super generic with like a gimmick stuck on as an afterthought. Honestly, the best part of the BW anime was how Team Rocket graduated to be a more credible threat again.

I actually like Serena because it seemed like she was actually independent at least compared to the others (I'll admit I joined watching this series like in the middle of the series, in fact I didn't start seriously watching until she lost her first showcase). She had her own struggles that didn't really seem TOO tacked on at the end or feeling like they're nothing but filler or completely separate from the main plot. Plus, I'll admit, having an actual in-series crush on Ash for what he did in the past just endears her for me. Plus, Clemont entertains me with the whole spin of being a super genius inventor thing. So this group probably entertains me as much as the original series did when I was a kid.

 

[Cresselia~~]

So what's their opinion on the Pokemon, you know, the main focus of the show?

Ironically... (laughs) ...
well, I can think of a few-- (with great difficulty)
1. criticisms on how Snorunt evolved into Glalie because Glalie is not popular. People later said that they should have waited for Froslass, since people like Froslass.
2. They don't like how Pikachu has to lose first battles in every region.
3. They don't like how Torchic evolved.
4. Generally, they don't like the choice of Pokemon the writers gave to Ash in Advanced Generation.

I didn't pay much attention to Sinnoh-- most of the stuff I see is about how annoying Dawn is.
I think there were some suggestion about how the main cast should have Infernape, Leafeon and Glaceon.
Pretty much, they were unhappy about the choice of Pokemon for the main cast (same with BW)

 

[jordanthejq12]

On the subject of Sinnoh, how do they feel about Tobias? Opinions vary over here, but from my perspective at least, it seems they had made Ash so competent they had practically written themselves into a corner and required a Diabolus ex Machina for him to lose the league.

 

[Antihaxxer]

Ash was probably the best trainer after Tobias. But his Pokemon couldn't handle so many legendaries. And he shouldn't have used Torkoal and Glalie for more powerful pokemon ... Heracross should have beaten Darkrai too ... Or him + Sceptile. Latias was tough too, but Ash did well too.

Nobody has beatean Darkrai in sinnoh League. Even the other trainer in the finale ...

 

[Codraroll]

On the subject of Sinnoh, how do they feel about Tobias? Opinions vary over here, but from my perspective at least, it seems they had made Ash so competent they had practically written themselves into a corner and required a Diabolus ex Machina for him to lose the league.

The dumb thing about Tobias was giving him Legendaries without an explanation. A competent core of the VGC's top monsters at the time would have made for an equally lose-able battle for Ash, without resorting to the obviously ridiculous. Heck, given how the Indigo league had Ash nearly lose to a Bellsprout, a Darkrai and Latios would't have been necessary either way. Also, Ash being competent would not be a limiting factor for whether he loses or not. You can be extremely competent and do things almost perfectly right, yet still lose. Just ask anybody who's finished second in a Worlds tournament.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I have to admit that I don't know everything.
Sorry guys, but I'm also human.

I don't know much about Tobias.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

I have to admit that I don't know everything.
Sorry guys, but I'm also human.

I don't know much about Tobias.

You're not human. You're Asian Nah, but seriously can't expect you to know everything.

Tobias was interesting in that he seemed to exist practically as the way some of us would actually breeze through the games. Sure you might be mad that he has both a Darkrai AND a Latios but is that all too different than the games themselves? We could go through Victory Road and the Elite Four with Dialga/Palkia and the Lake Trio in Diamond/Pearl and much more than that in Platinum. Tobias seems to represent how WE as players of the game play the game - playing to win with the most powerful creatures we have on hand. I know various people that are just upset at how he came out of left field to end the entire thing but I guess my question is: couldn't you say that you practically did just that during your run of the game? I distinctly remember doing stuff like that in Sapphire with Kyogre but ESPECIALLY in Emerald with the Rayquaza at a higher level than anything else in the game. Hell, even I didn't think it was fair that I'm able to use an uber at like 10 levels higher than everyone else in the game.

 

[pika pal]

My problem with Tobias is how so much of him seems blatantly dedicated to get beat Ash rather than develop a character; he's a walking plot device. And it's actually not the Darkrai that seals that idea for me, but the Latios.

Here's what I think they could have done: Tobias is a trainer who came to capture Darkrai through some means. After that, he just stopped seeing challenges, and became complacent using Darkrai without the rest of his team. Ash takes down Darkrai during the League, forcing Tobias to use the rest of his (regular mons) team, something he's out of practice with in spite of his skill. Ash puts up a good fight, but Darkrai put too much of a dent to keep up with everything Tobias still has. It'd make for a nice deconstruction of Starter/Legendary reliant trainers, as even if you give some training to others, often times your ace is still leagues ahead of them in power.

Now, I could see them going with a premise like this, maybe Tobias just being underdeveloped from a writing perspective, not an issue exclusive to him, and it'd at least be better than Richie who is literally just Ash made into a Mary Sue (I still call BS on so many parts of that battle).

Then out comes the Latios. This irks me for so many reasons. For one, having another legendary deflates any of the impact Darkrai had, as it goes from "a trainer strong enough to partner with a legendary" to "lol, 6 legendaries, gg" in tone. Second, Latios is such a lazy choice. there's no thematic connection to Darkrai, it's not a Sinnoh Pokemon, and it's one half of a pair that isn't present. Having Latios by itself without Latias is as jarring as the singular Plusle with the cut Minun in Colosseum. Cresselia would've at least been interesting for a Yin Yang idea or something.

One of the big things my Character and Story class has hammered in is that reliance on coincidence or unforeshadowed events to resolve you plot/climax are poison. The Darkrai thing I could sort of accept, but then Ash runs into the one trainer who's caught not one, but TWO legendaries (if not more depending on your theories)? No, that's a plot contrivance to make Ash lose because you realized getting swept by Darkrai wouldn't be interesting, but were too lazy to give Tobias a full team outside of it or make an interesting battle out of what Ash had left.

One of my favorite battles in the anime is the Ash vs Roxie fight, because it handles the asymmetrical team size so much better. While noticeably stronger than Ash's team, Roxie's Pokemon never feel like Olympus Mons in comparison, and Ash actually employs some interesting techniques, some working and some not, to make up the power gap. It's also the only time where I feel like a "last mon Pikachu" victory felt earned and paid off, because Ash's other Pokemon actually contributed, rather than just being a Worf effect.


That's the thing that pisses me off about Tobias. He was horribly handled, but they could have, and did in a way with Roxie, written him to make for a genuinely interesting and intense battle.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Also, Ash being competent would not be a limiting factor for whether he loses or not. You can be extremely competent and do things almost perfectly right, yet still lose. Just ask anybody who's finished second in a Worlds tournament.

This is of course true, but remember that Ash can act like a bumbling idiot (relatively speaking) and still go deep into tournaments. If there's anything Sinnoh (or arguably the Battle Frontier before that) taught us, it's that when Ash is on his game, he is on his game.

Here's what I think they could have done: Tobias is a trainer who came to capture Darkrai through some means. After that, he just stopped seeing challenges, and became complacent using Darkrai without the rest of his team. Ash takes down Darkrai during the League, forcing Tobias to use the rest of his (regular mons) team, something he's out of practice with in spite of his skill. Ash puts up a good fight, but Darkrai put too much of a dent to keep up with everything Tobias still has. It'd make for a nice deconstruction of Starter/Legendary reliant trainers, as even if you give some training to others, often times your ace is still leagues ahead of them in power.

That's actually a really cool way of handling it. I figured Ash would probably have to beat the League if he did beat Tobias, at which point he would have to lose during the E4 run so they could wrap up Sinnoh and move on. Thus, Ash gets his League title but still finds out he has much to learn, young grasshopper, allowing us to go on to Unova. (Oh, and they get to show us how the E4 and Champion are structured in the games.) Everybody's happy.

But honestly, I think your way makes more sense. And foreshadows what happens two gens later with the EXP Share which, even if you do pour all your training into your starter/a legendary, allows your HM slaves/anything caught along that route to possibly be at a high enough level to come in and finish fights the starter/legendary can't.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Cresselia~~:

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Well at least they have some Pokemon opinions... though it doesn't sound like that's their main concern but whatever.

1. The Snorunt family is overall an odd 3. They look nothing alike one another and their only connecting theme is they're based on ice spirits. And while I agree Glalie isn't exactly popular here too (design is a bit bland and its stats suck, Mega Glalie gives it much needed improvements), I have to wonder if they only said that because some of them think Froslass as "waifu" material (even though she's based on a yokai which kills people by freezing them... and Froslass in particular collects its frozen victim as ice statues).
2. Yeah, that's BS. You're not making the new Pokemon seem more powerful you're making Ash and Pikachu look incompetent. I know you can't have Pikachu steamrolling through all its opponents but at least provide a good reason and decent battle from it.
3. What was wrong? And please don't tell me its because they're not as cute as Torchic because that pretty much describes all the Starters (I'll give them Comdusken looks a bit ugly but Blaziken is awesome looking).
4. Let's see: Pikachu, Swellow, Sceptile, Corphish, Torkoal, and Glalie. I can see that being an odd combination (aside from Sceptile not many of those Pokemon are popular) but type coverage wise it looks pretty nice. Though looking through the Gen III Pokemon I can't really find any I can say Ash could have gotten that would have changed all that much of the misfit team. Spheal? Trapinch? Absol? Honestly if I was making the team I might have come up with a similar format if given the restrictions were they (needing to have Pikachu, Ash only having one Starter, his Pokemon need to cover a variety of types, no pseudo Legendaires, no Pokemon which are signature Pokemon of another trainer).
Sinnoh: Who would have Leafeon and Glaceon? I mean I know Brock has expanded upon his type specialty but still. Also both that gen's Eeveelutions would have probably felt like they were forcing them on us (though oddly Dawn's Eevee didn't evolve until he cameo visit in BW). Also I like Brock's Croagunk, who doesn't like Brock's Croagunk?
Only odd choice for Dawn was Swinub. Yeah it starts out cute but they had it evolve so that didn't matter. But then again that did give her a powerhouse so in the end I think it worked out. Though it was dumb how they gave away Ambipom.
Unova: I can give or take some of the choices but my main problem with the Unova cast is how they didn't evolve a lot of them. Ash went into the Unova League with a Oshawott, Pignite, Snivy, Scraggy, Palpitoad, and Boldore. All of them should have been at least been middle evolution and most of them fully evolved. Fine, get Oshawott is crazy popular but I don't see why they didn't evolve Snivy and Scraggy (Scraggy evolving might have even aspire Axew to evolve being they were close friends). Palpitoad and Boldore probably should have evolved all the way since they're a bit of oddballs and being fully evolved would have given them some notoriety (especially for Palpitoad since Oshawott was going to be kept in its basic stage it would have filled as Ash's Water-type "powerhouse").
Iris, yeah, as Darth Manaphy said she's suppose to be a Dragon Master... yet her strongest Pokemon for a long time was Excadrill. Why not a Druddigon, you didn't do anything particularly special with it and she had one in the games. You made a backstory involving a misunderstood Druddigon which the Elder calmed, change it so that it was Iris who made a connection with it, they battled together but after losing to Drayden it went back to being unsocialable as it felt it failed Iris. They could have also had her befriend a Deino which then evolved to a Zwelious and due to it having two vicious minds became uncontrollable, but I can see them not doing that since at that point they were probably still planning on getting Team Plasma involved.
No real opinion on Cilan's choices, just seemed kind of there. Crustle was the powerhouse and Stunfisk I suppose was good for a laugh though nothing remarkable beyond that. But he pretty much was there just to assure Ash & co. didn't get completely lost and starve.

Tobias:

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I was okay with him being a mysterious guy with a Darkrai. But him pulling out a Latios? I agree with pika pal that it felt unneeded and cheapened the fact Ash took down a Legendary. I would have much preferred that we saw Tobias send out Pokemon who you could sort of tell were trained to catch Darkrai (a Fighting-type, a Bug-type, one that had the Ability Insomnia/Early Bird, one that knew False Swipe, etc.) but were also battle capable. Darkrai knocked out half of Ash's team, Ash was still going to lose as long as they had Tobias other Pokemon strong enough.
Or if they really wanted to go the Legendary route I think he should have sent out another Legendary. Latios comes out of nowhere and felt like a deux ex machina but I think had he sent out another Legendary it would have changed from "well that came out of nowhere" to "oh, so this guy is some kind of Legendary hunter". Like in my mind have Pikachu just barely able to stand after defeating Latios. Tobias is vastly impressed with Ash's skill of defeating two Legendaries and then sends out a Regigigas. Everyone is surprise as Tobias explains Regigigas won't be able to start battling in five minutes and considering Pikachu's condition if Ash doesn't take it down by that time it's over. So Pikachu starts hammering away at Regigigas who of course doesn't really react as the tension builds up as it becomes evidently clear Ash and Pikachu aren't going to be able to do it. Finally 5 minutes are up and Slow Start wares off, Regigigas takes one step forward to an exhausted Pikachu... and Ash stops the battle saying he forfeits. However everyone still cheers as Tobias congrats Ash for not only beating Darkrai and Latios but also caring enough about his Pokemon to know when they reached their limits saying how other trainers would have kept going and get their Pokemon seriously hurt being knocked out by Regigigas and say he hopes to battle Ash some time in the future.
But yeah, Tobias in the end was just a plot device because at that point they sort of needed an exceptional trainer to beat Ash. They did the "Ash clone" in Kanto, the "next Gen Pokemon" in Johto, the "opposite of Pikachu/battle capable Meowth" in Hoenn, so guess it was time for a "trainer with Legendary". As I said, I had no problem with it except they either should have kept it at Darkrai or had him use another Legendary to show it's not a fluke he has a Latios as well.

 

[stage7_4]

Sorry to bring up a dead topic, but I do want to point out that Misty does have one contributing factor to her popularity in the west besides First Girl.

Misty is the only one never portrayed as inferior to Ash when it came to battling. While this doesn't sound like much (Ash was literally just starting and she's a gym leader), it set the tone for Misty's character as a mentor and later equal battling partner (when Ash got more experienced. Sorta). Misty was never the protege, she was always a competent and would fight alongside Ash in non-official matches (i.e. Team Rocket) and even compete against him sometimes (Togepi tussle, Whirlpool Islands Arc, the Latias/Latios movie race for example).

Or, at least she started that way. As the Kanto and Johto arcs progressed, it seemed the writers tried to nerf her with Psyduck, giving up Starmie for a while, Togepi (a lot of people blame Togepi for "ruining" Misty's character). Plus she was a little gimped from the get-go, since Goldeen and Horsea were nigh-unusable outside of water or ocean episodes. So thank goodness for Staryu? At least they started to back off of this once Poliwag and Corsola were caught, even eventually giving her a Gyarados.

While "strong fighter" does not equate to good character, it does leave an audience impression. And it's not to say that the other girls never became equals to Ash (I particularly liked May's farewell fight), but they were always catching up with Ash. Misty is that sole exception.

You can argue they tried to pull another Misty with Iris, but giving her by all accounts a baby Axew and an unloyal Excadrill to start with but her squarely in the Ash's protege file. Even in the currently season, the role of the Misty and Brock characters are merged into Clemont. I don't think Serena has ever fought against Ash yet, and I've rarely heard of her assisting in defeating Team Rocket at least (but I might just be not paying as much attention).

TLDR: Misty popularity is inflated due to being the first girl, but she's not JUST the first girl.