Unpopular opinions

[PokePoindexter]

"Difficulty"... whenever I hear that phrase applied to Pokemon games, it almost always seems to mean jacking up the levels of opposing trainers' teams or just using fully-evolved mons that are all the same type. That ain't skill, folks. That's just patience to spend extra time level grinding. And it also helps explain why I don't care for about 90% of ROM hacks out there.

One way I think you could implement real difficulty would be to challenge someone's ability to battle under various conditions (e.g. weather, terrain, even things like Trick Room or Inverse Battles), as well as taking advantage of said conditions. Raihan was a start, but I think we could do even better than that. Here are a few examples:

• A battle in permanent Rain Dance versus someone using a Lapras, Dhelmise, Manectric and Barraskewda. Lapras can use Hydration to prevent status conditions from wearing it down, Dhelmise's Fire-type weakness would be neutralized, Manectric could fire off perfect-accuracy Thunders, and Barraskewda... take a guess. What would make this fight difficult would be that you actually need to know a thing or two about battling in various weather conditions and wouldn't be able to cheese it just by leveling up a single Electric- or Grass-type mon. You could certainly change the weather and weaken that strategy somewhat, but the team could still put up a fight even without the rain.
• A battle in permanent Trick Room versus a team of Gastrodon, Escavalier, Dragalge, and Snorlax. All 4 of these are slower than your average Pokemon and can use TR in addition to their solid bulk, lack of shared weaknesses (Dragalge being the only one to even have more than one weakness at all), and respectable offensive stats. A game with this sort of battle would probably have to have some additional way to untwist the dimensions, although using Trick Room when said dimensions are twisted does just that already.

Two other ways to increase the real difficulty would be to 1) increase held item usage in opposing Pokemon, and 2) have opposing Pokemon have movesets that put their best stats to good use. Remember how Steven's Aggron used to use moves like Solar Beam and Thunderbolt, or how Skyla's Swoobat tried to use Acrobatics and Heart Stamp off a base Attack stat of 57? That's how to NOT do the latter.

So that's a few examples of ways Pokemon games could be more difficult than they currently are. I could say more, but that's all I have the patience to type out for now.

 

[Codraroll]

Ehhh, I wouldn't say that the jerk rival is done for. Sword and Shield did this quite a bit although it did put its own spins on the jerk rival.

In a way, it sure did. I came to despise Hop a lot more than I ever did Silver, because Silver at least left me alone for most of the adventure, and when he appeared he didn't prattle on for ages about stuff I had no care for whatsoever.

Whenever Silver appears, you go "Oh, that guy again! I look forward to giving him another good beating". When you see Hop in the distance, you go "Oh crud, not that guy again. Screw that guy!"

 

[Kanburi]

In a way, it sure did. I came to despise Hop a lot more than I ever did Silver, because Silver at least left me alone for most of the adventure, and when he appeared he didn't prattle on for ages about stuff I had no care for whatsoever.

Whenever Silver appears, you go "Oh, that guy again! I look forward to giving him another good beating". When you see Hop in the distance, you go "Oh crud, not that guy again. Screw that guy!"

Hau and Hop tbh. The absolute worst rivals of the games I've played (1st, 6th, 7th, 8th gens)

But the thing that really annoys me about the two of them is that they want to be your rival, but pick the starter that's weak to yours, then act surprise when you know about type matchups. I mean, if they think they're worthy of being my rival, at least have the IQ to pick the other starter. If I were Leon, I'd never endorse Hop after seeing him pick the disadvantageous starter.

 

[Worldie]

Hau and Hop tbh. The absolute worst rivals of the games I've played (1st, 6th, 7th, 8th gens)

But the thing that really annoys me about the two of them is that they want to be your rival, but pick the starter that's weak to yours, then act surprise when you know about type matchups. I mean, if they think they're worthy of being my rival, at least have the IQ to pick the other starter. If I were Leon, I'd never endorse Hop after seeing him pick the disadvantageous starter.

Eh, I disagree.
Both Hau and Hop have a comparable "plot point"
- Both live in the shadow of a strong trainer that's a relative of them (a Kahuna / the Champion)
- Both are overconfident in their abilities as trainers due to having lived at close contact with Pokemon thus convinced that simply befriending them is sufficent to be good at battling
- Both end up having their belief crushed, Hop expecially after being crushed by Bede who completely destroys his self confidence
- Both have to face personal growth of stop living in the shadow of their relative and accept that becoming a good trainer requires effort and confidence

Essentially, they are low ladder players who think they're good because they were facerolling schoolkids with their youtube meme team and suddently end up facing competent players and get stomped.
I don't see the issue with them picking the weak starter and being surprised that you beat them multiple times. In fact, I think it's very fitting.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Everybody rags on Hau for picking the weak starter but nobody talks about how he later uses an Eeveelution (Vaporeon, Flareon or Leafeon) that covers that weakness

In addition, while it's a lot more of a stretch, Hop's selection of the weak starter can be seen as a 4d chess play to later have a better shot of beating Leon since he uses the starter strong VS yours, i.e. the starter weak to Hop's

 

[StarKirb94]

I don't have any problems with rivals having the starter that is weak against yours, but I think this concept is better when there's another rival that uses the remaining one, so that you get to see all three starters in a single playthrough. What Black & White and X & Y did, pretty much (even though XY was weird about showing all of the starters' forms).

 

[Kanburi]

Eh, I disagree.
Both Hau and Hop have a comparable "plot point"
- Both live in the shadow of a strong trainer that's a relative of them (a Kahuna / the Champion)
- Both are overconfident in their abilities as trainers due to having lived at close contact with Pokemon thus convinced that simply befriending them is sufficent to be good at battling
- Both end up having their belief crushed, Hop expecially after being crushed by Bede who completely destroys his self confidence
- Both have to face personal growth of stop living in the shadow of their relative and accept that becoming a good trainer requires effort and confidence

Essentially, they are low ladder players who think they're good because they were facerolling schoolkids with their youtube meme team and suddently end up facing competent players and get stomped.
I don't see the issue with them picking the weak starter and being surprised that you beat them multiple times. In fact, I think it's very fitting.

So both are garbage trainers and garbage rivals.

Everybody rags on Hau for picking the weak starter but nobody talks about how he later uses an Eeveelution (Vaporeon, Flareon or Leafeon) that covers that weakness

In addition, while it's a lot more of a stretch, Hop's selection of the weak starter can be seen as a 4d chess play to later have a better shot of beating Leon since he uses the starter strong VS yours, i.e. the starter weak to Hop's

Yes, Hau learns to teambuild, good for him. But the first battle is the most important. It's for bragging rights until you meet again.

And both of them are annoying af. I'd rather have someone like Serena/Calem with no character than someone like Hau/Hop to get in the way of everything. Hau is just slightly less annoying than the Rotom Dex. They're better suited to be relegated to the likes of Tierno and Trevor rather than a "rival".

 

[IceBeam23]

- Both end up having their belief crushed, Hop expecially after being crushed by Bede who completely destroys his self confidence

I actually felt so bad for Hop after beating him in the tournament. He gets a new theme, talks about how serious he's gonna be, tries to build the best team he can (except for dubwool and pincurchin, at least bring another electric type !)... and then you just slamdunk his team, his hopes and his dreams like you always do.
And then everyone congratulates you for beating him and reaching the finals WHEN HE'S RIGHT THERE. Like come on, at least respect him a little...
At least they both get a happy ending, Hau becoming the next kahuna by fighting an ultra beast alongside Koko, and Hop deciding to become a pokemon professor (and getting a fricking legendary in his team, one of the best even if you play shield).

 

[Bakugames]

Yes, Hau learns to teambuild, good for him. But the first battle is the most important. It's for bragging rights until you meet again.

First battle is the most important? i'd say its the least important, its a "spam A and see what happens" fest in most games, and "idk oneshot with the super effective move" in others. theres nothing interessing about those battles, even the game knows because it lets you progress after you lose to the first rival battle in most games, and the ones that dont are just annoying if you end up losing

 

[Siggu]

If anything, the rival that picks the strong starter is put on a worse light, as they lose despite the elemental advantage.

 

[Pikachu315111]

1) No-one gave a flying crap about Maractus until Dexit threatened to do away with it. Then all of a sudden everyone was distraught at the prospect of losing a Pokemon no-one had ever used. Now it's everyone's favourite Pokemon (which is fair, it's cute) but the revisionism that went on prior to SwSh's release with people saying "I'm so glad Maractus is in the game!" was hilarious.*

Maractus falls into that category of mons that I'd call "known for being unknown": If it is brought up in conversation, it's typically along the lines of "Hey, who remembers this, amirite?".

Real talk tho, even though it makes sense that every mon is someone's favorite, it was just silly to see people going nuts for the likes of Maractus, Lumineon, Furret, and other mons that are only remembered on "Most Forgettable Pokémon" lists.

I used Maractus it in my White playthrough. Needed a Grass-type, encountered it in Desert Resort and thought "eh, a cactus would do", and it served me pretty well. Can't remember whether I had it with me for the entire journey, I do think I remembered it getting often outsped so had it doing Giga Drain most of the time to keep healing itself, it was certainly a niche but it served me well I recall.

Some people may bad mouth Maractus, but I'll give it priase *picks up Maractus and gives it a hug* OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! WHY DID I THINK THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA?!

*Maractus happily dances*

To be fair Furret even has a dedicated global twitch emote. It's illegal for it to not be in the games

To be fair that has nothing with it being a good Pokemon in-game.

I find it hilarious how a lot of pokemons got popular because... they were unpopular.

"Tell me about it"

Blue's replacement is a guy named Trace. Trace.

While funny, still feel like I should note for those who don't know that, to go with the "GO" connection, the default name of the player characters & the new Rival name had to do with movement: Boy is "Chase", Girl is "Elaine" (from "lane"), and Rival is "Trace" (one of its definition being "find or discover by investigation"). This also goes for their Japanese names: Kakeru ("to dash"), Ayumi ("step" or "progress"), & Shin ("advance").

If anything, the rival that picks the strong starter is put on a worse light, as they lose despite the elemental advantage.

Though until Gen VI the Starters didn't have an elemental move until Level 7. Of course this change is why the Rival has the Type disadvantage. Though maybe they should make the first battle with the Rival have them not using the Starter and then after the battle they get the Starter, but you wait a bit before the second battle giving you time to catch some other Pokemon.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

If I were Leon, I'd never endorse Hop after seeing him pick the disadvantageous starter.

It gets worse. If you pick Scorbunny, Hop picks the starter that is weak to you AND Leon's.

Then he starts talking copious amounts of trash while getting bodied and is shocked when Bede wipes the floor with him.

Both Hau and Hop have a comparable "plot point"

And animations.

If anything, the rival that picks the strong starter is put on a worse light, as they lose despite the elemental advantage.

I dunno, I'd give more credit to the player for actually overcoming the type disadvantage.

Though until Gen VI the Starters didn't have an elemental move until Level 7. Of course this change is why the Rival has the Type disadvantage. Though maybe they should make the first battle with the Rival have them not using the Starter and then after the battle they get the Starter, but you wait a bit before the second battle giving you time to catch some other Pokemon.

Gen 6 actually did it better though, because on XY the weaker rival is the Furfrou chick the game low key ships with male players (lol at where you get the Protect TM.) while Serena/Calem actually get the advantage and are painted as better trainers (and fall flat when you finally get to battle them and they straight up admit they're not gonna be able to beat you.) and on ORAS they remove the STAB from the rival's starter because you can't catch mons yet.

Hau and Hop is where things get blatantly silly, and there's really no reason for it on Hop's case because the starter only gets STAB on Lv. 6.

Straight up dumbed down design. Masuda must think kids today ain't as good as 90's kids. Pokémon been disrespecting these kids for almost a decade now.

 

[Worldie]

Straight up dumbed down design. Masuda must think kids today ain't as good as 90's kids. Pokémon been disrespecting these kids for almost a decade now.

Considering what we've seen going in the Dynamax Adventures thread, and mixed with my own personal experiences, I am still convinced that they aren't actually wrong on this.
Todays kids *are* dumb and lazy. (not all, but on average yes)

Somewhat releated, I'd also point that in Japan specifically there's a relatively common trend of buying games just for the story/lore/graphics and only wanting to completely breeze through the story, which is why so many JP games have p2w dlcs that for a couple bucks will give a overpowered weapon/armor/charachter/something or extremely easy game modes that literally offer no challenge at all and can be beaten in autopilot.
Hell in Persona games's easy mode you literally *cant die*, if you do you're healed back to full HP.
....incidentally, Let's Go had a pretty much P2W Mew......

 

[Diophantine]

On average, kids aren't more dumb these days - if anything they're smarter than they were 10 years ago, and this increases over the generations incrementally as kids are exposed to more complex things year by year in addition to more convenient internet access. The difference now is that Pokemon has to contend with the video games of the late 2010-2020s, like the mobile phone games and games such as Fortnite, games which you don't need to grind for and can just pick up and play. There are also alternatives to playing games these days such as watching other people play games on Youtube, watching things on Netflix, etc etc. Because of this, (at least this is my conclusion) kids now cba to grind in games because grinding can be a little boring, and so Pokemon has to adapt to all of this by making the game easier and giving away more "freebies" like the Mega Lucario and all the other gifts in XY so they don't hit the attention span limit of today's kids. I see this in my younger sisters (11 and 13) who do like playing the Pokemon games (the old ones I passed down to them) but spend most of their free time watching anime/tv series/playing among us or whatever popular mobile game is in at the current moment.

Edgy jerk rivals are not necessary at all, and Barry is the best rival. Rivals need to a) provide a challenge as difficult or more difficult than gym leaders and b) be integrated in the game's plot. The reason I'm not too big of a fan of Blue as a rival (but I am of him as a gym leader) is because he only really fits one of those two criteria. All he is is an obstacle to get over. Why is he even challenging you at Silph Co. lol? Granted, he is the first rival, to be fair, so it's a bit extreme to expect something other than basic. Silver only fits one of those criteria, namely the second one. Great story and everything but his battles are all too easy. Brenden/May fit both until you get to a certain point, and then end up fitting neither, unless you play ORAS where they at least retain the second criteria throughout. Barry fits both perfectly, which is why I believe he's the best rival. I don't really remember much past gen 4, however.

 

[spookysocialist]

The amount of pokemon fans who complain about the poor quality of games due to shorter and shorter development cycles, but then buy the games/DLC on release date every time is absurd and makes pokemon fans look like jokes. Is it that hard to recognize that no matter how much you complain, if you buy the games yearly, you are telling Nintendo/Game freak to keep making them yearly?

BTW this isn't directed at any particular person or anything, just a general trend among some fans.

 

[jordanthejq12]

The amount of pokemon fans who complain about the poor quality of games due to shorter and shorter development cycles, but then buy the games/DLC on release date every time is absurd and makes pokemon fans look like jokes. Is it that hard to recognize that no matter how much you complain, if you buy the games yearly, you are telling Nintendo/Game freak to keep making them yearly?

BTW this isn't directed at any particular person or anything, just a general trend among some fans.

The fans who cheer those changes on/don't give a damn/think the fans who do care are being whiny babies will pretty much always outbuy the boycotters (or anyone making noise generally).

 

[Sonikku A]

So this is why I still don't have a Switch

 

[Worldie]

So this is why I still don't have a Switch

Imagine if the Switch also had a bunch of other games very worth the price, featured portability for playing on the go, and if we stopped implying that buying 3-400 bucks of Switch just for Pokemon is something anyone with a functioning brain would do.

You don't buy a console for one game.
And if you do, reconsider your life priorityes.

Buying a Switch should have nothing to do with Pokemon.

 

[pokemon4eva]

One way I think you could implement real difficulty would be to challenge someone's ability to battle under various conditions (e.g. weather, terrain, even things like Trick Room or Inverse Battles), as well as taking advantage of said conditions. Raihan was a start, but I think we could do even better than that. Here are a few examples:

Sounds like what Klara and Avery did on their 3rd battle, when they battle you with Toxic Spikes or Psychic Terrain respectively. Which is why I said before, it surprises me something like this took 8 generations and a dlc to do so.

This is something done by plenty of fangames, like Reborn and Rejuvenation, where every terrain has its own mechanics and you have to adapt to them. eg: the fairy tale field add Dragon typing to Fire attacks, so they lose advantage against Steel. Although sometimes they go way too far with the difficulty, Rejuvenation for example introduces plenty of op cheated mons and exclusive moves (like a Sandstorm version of Aurora Veil, let that sink in, A SANDSTORM VERSION OF AURORA VEIL!)

 

[Sonikku A]

Imagine if the Switch also had a bunch of other games very worth the price, featured portability for playing on the go, and if we stopped implying that buying 3-400 bucks of Switch just for Pokemon is something anyone with a functioning brain would do.

You don't buy a console for one game.
And if you do, reconsider your life priorityes.

Buying a Switch should have nothing to do with Pokemon.

I mean true, but I legit don't care much for the 1st party, or even close second party. And everytime someone's suggests 3rd party, I simply look at Steam
Not to mention the console itself is shoddily built, online is a mess, and I already was screwed over for Wii U thinking it'd get better

 

[Pikachu315111]

The amount of pokemon fans who complain about the poor quality of games due to shorter and shorter development cycles, but then buy the games/DLC on release date every time is absurd and makes pokemon fans look like jokes. Is it that hard to recognize that no matter how much you complain, if you buy the games yearly, you are telling Nintendo/Game freak to keep making them yearly?

BTW this isn't directed at any particular person or anything, just a general trend among some fans.

Yes, I bought the game and DLC on day one... and that makes me a customer therefore I have the right to complain about it. If there's something about the game I don't like, I'm going to raise my voice about it to see if anyone else agrees with me. And if there's enough of us, maybe somehow, someway, that criticism will reach back to GF and they could use that criticism to at the very least not do the same mistake they did.

Because, sure, now people buy the games even if they find some parts of it shoddy, but GF can't keep doing that cause eventually people may just stop buying the games when they've finally reached an "enough" point.

All else I'm going to say is that, now that GF is right across the street from Nintendo's main headquarters, maybe there's a chance we'll see a quality improvement now that GF could just go over to them and ask for a cup of programmers.

 

[Worldie]

I mean true, but I legit don't care much for the 1st party, or even close second party. And everytime someone's suggests 3rd party, I simply look at Steam
Not to mention the console itself is shoddily built, online is a mess, and I already was screwed over for Wii U thinking it'd get better

I mean, that's fair and all, and way more of a reason to not buy the Switch than just "i don't think Sword and Shield are worth the price" :P

(expecially as even if they were the best games on the planet, they'd still not be worth upwards of 500€)

 

[Nokocchi]

The amount of pokemon fans who complain about the poor quality of games due to shorter and shorter development cycles, but then buy the games/DLC on release date every time is absurd and makes pokemon fans look like jokes. Is it that hard to recognize that no matter how much you complain, if you buy the games yearly, you are telling Nintendo/Game freak to keep making them yearly?

BTW this isn't directed at any particular person or anything, just a general trend among some fans.

While I can't say that there weren't people that fell into this category, I believe that there is far less overlap between people who complained about sword and shield before launch and people who actually bought it then most give credit for.

While the criticisms of Sword and Shield are very vocal, looking at the raw numbers of sales(becoming the third best selling games in the series after Red/Green/Blue and Gold/Silver, which largely had the pokemania of the later 90's/early 00's to help with those high numbers) shows that trying to use the vocal internet opinions to gauge things like this as a whole usually ends up leading to completely different results.

There are more casual Pokemon players then most people think, ones that don't go to Pokemon or even gaming-themed websites to discuss the series in-depth They buy the games, beat the main story, and then put them down after that, not bothering with PvP or post-game content. The things people are most likely to criticize about the games simply do not effect them or their enjoyment of the game directly.

 

[Worldie]

While the criticisms of Sword and Shield are very vocal, looking at the raw numbers of sales(becoming the third best selling games in the series after Red/Green/Blue and Gold/Silver, which largely had the pokemania of the later 90's/early 00's to help with those high numbers) shows that trying to use the vocal internet opinions to gauge things like this as a whole usually ends up leading to completely different results.

There are more casual Pokemon players then most people think, ones that don't go to Pokemon or even gaming-themed websites to discuss the series in-depth They buy the games, beat the main story, and then put them down after that, not bothering with PvP or post-game content. The things people are most likely to criticize about the games simply do not effect them or their enjoyment of the game directly.

Yeah, i've been pointing this for a while.

Honestly, it's not even just for Pokemon.
Nowadays it's common in a lot of other gaming communities, from single players to mobas to mmos to whatever, to have a <extremely loud> minority that rages on the internets, and then a huge silent majority that buys the games, enjoys the fun, and puts them down.

 

[Samtendo09]

Yeah, i've been pointing this for a while.

Honestly, it's not even just for Pokemon.
Nowadays it's common in a lot of other gaming communities, from single players to mobas to mmos to whatever, to have a <extremely loud> minority that rages on the internets, and then a huge silent majority that buys the games, enjoys the fun, and puts them down.

While I can't say that there weren't people that fell into this category, I believe that there is far less overlap between people who complained about sword and shield before launch and people who actually bought it then most give credit for.

While the criticisms of Sword and Shield are very vocal, looking at the raw numbers of sales(becoming the third best selling games in the series after Red/Green/Blue and Gold/Silver, which largely had the pokemania of the later 90's/early 00's to help with those high numbers) shows that trying to use the vocal internet opinions to gauge things like this as a whole usually ends up leading to completely different results.

There are more casual Pokemon players then most people think, ones that don't go to Pokemon or even gaming-themed websites to discuss the series in-depth They buy the games, beat the main story, and then put them down after that, not bothering with PvP or post-game content. The things people are most likely to criticize about the games simply do not effect them or their enjoyment of the game directly.

At the same time, I do not think super majorly pandering to casual players would be the best route either unless they are already your top priority audience, since while it would increase sales even more, it would also dumb things down and even potentially eliminate what depth the gaming franchise had and even run the danger of making the weak points even worse, all while completely ignoring the biggest criticisms the hardcore fans or even a few normal fans had made.

This can run the danger of homogenizing the franchise and become unable to improve for sake of raking as much cash as possible, even reaching the point where even losing a great part of fanbase would not affect the franchise aside of making that franchise seen as a "casual franchise".