Unpopular opinions

[The Mind Electric]

The beginning is nothing short of atrocious, but to make things worse, you have several short-sighted decisions like having ridiculous level requirements for certain evolutions because said mons are found late-game.

2 gens later, and it's suddenly very, very awkward to catch a Rufflet/Vullaby when they were made available earlier because they still evolve at like, level 54.

Yeah, these are both pretty dumb decisions. I don't personally get too annoyed by them, but they are there.

Unova as a region is also very silly because of the obvious linearity to the point it's immersion-breaking.

Fun fact, take a look at Sinnoh's map. Now remember that it's also a very linear game.

I don't really care that much about this because, as you say, it's not actually a big change in gameplay. The only difference between Unova's map and the rest is that Unova doesn't lie to you. I can see it being immersion-breaking if you play Pokémon more for the feeling of adventure, though.

I also find it an extremely ugly gen. Sprites were not meant to be stretched and resized and all that nonsense, it looks just abysmal at certain points, and quite frankly, the moving sprites in battle are just an eyesore.

They follow a cycle of "vibing -> vibing -> vibing -> POSE! -> vibing...".

Good sprite animation is seamless. Why in blazes would anyone make such a blatant loop point for all these mons!?

Hard disagree, I think gen 5 has the best sprites in the series, but it's subjective so whatever.

BW2 is forgettable to the point I quite frankly can't really rip into it. I'm not sure if what I remember is from 2 or 1 because eventually you enter the Unova loop and a chunk of the game overlaps horribly with BW1.

Parts of it are boring, yeah, and I think it's overall worse than B/W for it even when you include B/W's post-game in the discussion.

Edit: Also, it's really hard to come down from the power level of Platinum where pretty much everyone was tough and you had several strong options to "Starter, Purrloin, Patrat, Monke. And the first gym is a hard counter to your starter. Have fun."
Unfezant ain't no Staraptor either.

It takes a little bit to get going, but Unova actually has a really deep pool of good Pokémon for in-game playthroughs. They dump a lot of shitmons on you at the start, but it's got loads of usable stuff.

Overall, I see where you're coming from with most of these, but I don't think the flaws I agree with are enough to drop Unova to HG/SS levels. A matter of priorities, I guess.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I have a feeling that this opinion isn't very unpopular in this circle, but it's probably unpopular in the fanbase at large:

People who get angry at the concept of genning Pokemon have forgotten the moral of the first Pokemon movie. "The circumstances of one's birth" and all that.

 

[Chadlad50]

If you're genning Pokemon to be used in a competitive environment without doing all the work others would do (EV training, IV training, all that jazz) then I don't really like you. I'm not gonna go on a crusade over it or anything but I respect you less.

If you're just doing genning (or hacks in general) for ingame playthroughs and stuff then I don't care, go nuts. It's your game, it doesn't hurt anybody, have fun

 

[DrPumpkinz]

If you're genning Pokemon to be used in a competitive environment without doing all the work others would do (EV training, IV training, all that jazz) then I don't really like you. I'm not gonna go on a crusade over it or anything but I respect you less.

See, all the things you described are just mindless prep work. The actual competition is a test of team composition and especially in-battle piloting. If what the hacked Pokemon "do with the gift of life" is fairly compete (i.e. no illegal movesets, no overmaxed EVs, etc.) then how they came into being doesn't matter.

 

[Worldie]

If you're genning Pokemon to be used in a competitive environment without doing all the work others would do (EV training, IV training, all that jazz) then I don't really like you. I'm not gonna go on a crusade over it or anything but I respect you less.

If you're just doing genning (or hacks in general) for ingame playthroughs and stuff then I don't care, go nuts. It's your game, it doesn't hurt anybody, have fun

See, all the things you described are just mindless prep work. The actual competition is a test of team composition and especially in-battle piloting. If what the hacked Pokemon "do with the gift of life" is fairly compete (i.e. no illegal movesets, no overmaxed EVs, etc.) then how they came into being doesn't matter.

It's almost like lot of people play on Showdown do so because of how practical it is to be able to have their team available right away without needing the complexity of breeding and preparing in-game .

(Also I do agree with DrPumpkinz , I never really cared if people gen their pokemon or not, ultimately I respect shiny hunters and such but at same time when it comes to PvP all it matters is that the Poke is legal, rest is up to personal skills and RNGesus. Expecially before gen 8 when getting certain combinations of hidden power, nature and HA was just needlessly complicate)

 

[Scorpio]

bluh bluh some pogeymans are better than others

bluh bluh some pogeymans are better than others

bluh bluh some pogeymans are better than others

guyse all teh pokemon games are hot garbitch lololololololol lets burn every copy we can find and spend the time we would have wasted playing actually good games like Hot Animu Femboy Gacha 2: We Want Your Money #bbnd #blacklistMasuda #wewontunderstand











Okay if you want my real opinion, I actually get some enjoyment out of every single mainline Pokémon game*. Even for the most flawed games (IMO OG DP, XY, and SwSh), I can derive enough enjoyment from that I still think they’re at least OK. Call me easy to please, but for me it really just speaks to the strength of the core gameplay.

Plus every new game is another opportunity for me to try out new Pokémon.

*Haven’t played LGPE tho but I anticipate I’d have fun with that too.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

guyse all teh pokemon games are hot garbitch lololololololol lets burn every copy we can find and spend the time we would have wasted playing actually good games like Hot Animu Femboy Gacha 2: We Want Your Money #bbnd #blacklistMasuda #wewontunderstand











Okay if you want my real opinion, I actually get some enjoyment out of every single mainline Pokémon game*. Even for the most flawed games (IMO OG DP, XY, and SwSh), I can derive enough enjoyment from that I still think they’re at least OK. Call me easy to please, but for me it really just speaks to the strength of the core gameplay.

Plus every new game is another opportunity for me to try out new Pokémon.

*Haven’t played LGPE tho but I anticipate I’d have fun with that too.

Error: Page 404 - Unpopular Opinion not found.

So, what exactly was the point of that dime-a-dozen r/Pokemon post?

 

[Coronis]

Okay if you want my real opinion, I actually get some enjoyment out of every single mainline Pokémon game*. Even for the most flawed games (IMO OG DP, XY, and SwSh), I can derive enough enjoyment from that I still think they’re at least OK. Call me easy to please, but for me it really just speaks to the strength of the core gameplay.

Perfectly described really.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

If you're genning Pokemon to be used in a competitive environment without doing all the work others would do (EV training, IV training, all that jazz) then I don't really like you. I'm not gonna go on a crusade over it or anything but I respect you less.

If you're just doing genning (or hacks in general) for ingame playthroughs and stuff then I don't care, go nuts. It's your game, it doesn't hurt anybody, have fun

See, all the things you described are just mindless prep work. The actual competition is a test of team composition and especially in-battle piloting. If what the hacked Pokemon "do with the gift of life" is fairly compete (i.e. no illegal movesets, no overmaxed EVs, etc.) then how they came into being doesn't matter.

This, basically. I think a lot of people who get angry at people who shortcut this stuff fail to take into account that some people have... jobs and children and spouses and whole other lives that prevent them from spending hours breeding Pokemon over and over. I'm not gonna begrudge someone for saving themselves countless tedious hours, especially since they'll have had to pay extra for an Action Replay or whatever.

 

[Worldie]

Okay if you want my real opinion, I actually get some enjoyment out of every single mainline Pokémon game*. Even for the most flawed games (IMO OG DP, XY, and SwSh), I can derive enough enjoyment from that I still think they’re at least OK. Call me easy to please, but for me it really just speaks to the strength of the core gameplay.

Plus every new game is another opportunity for me to try out new Pokémon.

*Haven’t played LGPE tho but I anticipate I’d have fun with that too.

Sir, I will stop you right there, having fun is illegal. To the jail with you.

Meme aside, I'm with you, I stated it some posts ago, honestly the games are fun as they are.
Let's Go is a particular beast as you have to actually enjoy the catching mechanic, it honestly was much more fun when it came out than it'd be now since at the time you had the whole "damn finally Pokemon in somewhat cool graphic on TV and not on a 10 cm screen", even with all its flaws.
It can however be surprisingly challenging expecially if you opt out of the EV candies, in fact since I played it like that with also Set battle method, it was probably the most challenging of all the Pokemon games i've played in recent past
"challenging", since it was still somewhat easy. Unfortunately prior knowledge of type chart and generic movesets more or less invalidates any attempt at difficulty a Pokemon game can have. As I say often, it's impossible to make turn based games challenging for veterans, it's just too easy to break them due to the lack of "urgency" in the gameplay.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

On top of all this with Gen 2 HGSS hate becoming an increasingly popular stance the older fans who never bought into the hype to begin with (e.g. Volt-Ikazuchi, DrumstickGaming and Suspicious Derivative just looking at this forum) are emboldened to speak out themselves.

I’m not surprised that you mention me as an example of a player who dislikes HG/SS. At this point, I guess it should be clear to most OI veterans that I am not very fond of those games. However, the reason I am quoting you is because you are actually wrong about one thing. Unbelievable as it may sound, there was actually a time when I bought into the hype for HG/SS! Back in 2009, when they were first announced, I was burnt out on Pokémon. I had basically overplayed D/P and Emerald, while the games that were released before them were not as interesting to me at the time. Platinum, while a great game, did not manage to restore my interest in the series. Though I can appreciate it a lot more in retrospect, and I think it is the best 4th gen game without any doubt.

Either way, regarding the announcement of HG/SS… as an older Pokémon fan, I played G/S/C as a kid and had tons of fun with them. Silver was also my second Pokémon game. Since the hype for Johto remakes was extremely high in the fandom during Gen 4, I sort of just got into it as well. I was not super aware of the flaws of G/S/C at the time, so I got blinded by nostalgia and was looking forward to HG/SS just like everyone else. I thought, hoped and expected that these remakes would restore my interest in the series. I got SS on the release date, and then I ended up getting HG much later (but for a while, I was actually considering not getting it). However, when I got around to playing them, they weren’t as great as I had expected. The more I played them, the less I liked them. In the early parts of the game, I remember that I got very annoyed by the fact that the following Pokémon couldn’t be turned off, how you couldn’t properly choose which Pokémon should be following you, and how badly executed the feature was in general. Regarding the available Pokémon during the main game, there are definitely some useful Pokémon. But I felt that there were way too few Pokémon that I found fun to use. Despite those and all other issues, I beat the main game of both games without too many issues.

The real issues started in the post-game. HG/SS often get praised for having a good post-game or even the best post-game in the series. But I disagree. I tried to enjoy the post-game of HG/SS, and I really wanted to… but I couldn’t. There were just too many issues to make it enjoyable. In SS, I remember that I tried to complete the Pokédex and that I managed to complete at least 3/5 of it, but I just gave up after a while. It wasn’t fun at all. I didn’t get around to completing it until 2015 (in both games). Regarding HG, I remember that I played through the main game and then beat all the gyms in Kanto, then I just quit playing. Continuing with the game afterwards did not feel motivating at all. In the end, I find the post-game of HG/SS to be really bad. There isn’t a lot to do, and the few things they have to offer are very poorly executed for the most part. I don't think they have the worst post-game in the series, but it is very bad, that's for sure. I also need to mention that nowadays, HG/SS are my least favorite games in the series and I even liked G/S/C better than them.

The flaws of HG/SS became even more apparent after I played B/W, which ended my burnout and got me back into Pokémon. Going from HG/SS to B/W was like going from garbage to pure gold. B/W were practically the opposite of HG/SS in almost every way, they were fun and enjoyable where HG/SS weren't. I love B/W for that and pretty much everything else they did.

One other thing that was mentioned here which I think is very interesting is the fact that HG/SS doesn’t seem to be all that loved anymore. If anything, I see a lot of criticism towards them these days. Especially here on Smogon, but I have seen it on other sites too. It is strange, because in the not-too-distant past, they were generally considered the best games, flawless masterpieces that were immune to all kinds of criticism. But that seems to have changed. These days, other games seem to be more popular, notably Platinum and Gen 5 (which I personally approve of as I think those are much better than HG/SS). Even the 3D games seem to be rising in popularity lately, which is interesting. Things are changing on the whole, and I guess it shouldn’t be too surprising, yet I still find it unexpected.

That’s all I’m going to say about HG/SS this time. If I were to continue with saying more things, it would just be repeating what I have said in the past. If anyone wants to read more about my unpopular opinions regarding HG/SS, see here and here.

Now, to something different. Since the subject changed from HG/SS to Gen 5, I want to share two unpopular opinions about Gen 5 as well. I am pretty sure I have posted both of them in this thread before, but I want to post them again.

First of all, I think B/W has a great post-game. From the first pairs, I think they are tied with D/P as the best in the series. When it comes to post-game, I find these two pairs to be much better than R/B, G/S, R/S, X/Y, S/M and S/S (without DLC). I loved the post-game of B/W. You have large new areas to explore which feature strong trainers, strong wild Pokémon, and new wild Pokémon that couldn’t be found during the main game. There are also the Nimbasa Stadiums which are a great training spot. HG/SS has a lot to learn here. B/W has a fun and challenging Battle Facility in the Subway, there were also Dream World and online features before they got closed down. I liked the Entralink Missions too, and another unpopular opinion I have is that I liked the Musicals as well. Overall, I think the post-game of B/W was great. Not the best in the series, but tied with D/P as the best from the first pairs, and I think it is considerably better than the awful post-game of HG/SS.

Second, I liked the story in B2/W2. Not as good as the one in B/W, but still enjoyable. I liked seeing how things had changed over 2 years, the return of old characters and the introduction of new ones. It was interesting to see Team Plasma getting split in two different fractions as well. I want to give a special mention to Colress as he is one of my favorite characters in the series. This is because I can relate to his desire to make Pokémon stronger by natural means as that is something I am personally interested in as well. Basically this:

Overall, I think the story in B2/W2 is the fifth best in the series, beaten only by B/W, S/M, OR/AS and Platinum. In comparison, I think HG/SS has the worst story in the whole series.

Okay if you want my real opinion, I actually get some enjoyment out of every single mainline Pokémon game*. Even for the most flawed games (IMO OG DP, XY, and SwSh), I can derive enough enjoyment from that I still think they’re at least OK. Call me easy to please, but for me it really just speaks to the strength of the core gameplay.

I mostly agree with this. Like you, I haven’t played LGP/E, but apart from that, I have found almost all other Pokémon games to be fun and enjoyable to play. If not nowadays, then they were at least good for their time. Some of them have serious flaws which can get in the way at times, but even so, they were fun. To me, there is only one exception, which of course is HG/SS.

Since genning Pokémon was brought up, I want to say something about it as well. I have personally never genned a Pokémon and I will never do it. I used to be strongly against genning in the past, but nowadays, I am okay with others who do it in some situations. If you are genning Pokémon for personal in-game use and nothing else, that’s fine with me. If you are genning Pokémon and using them for online battles or unofficial tournaments or something similar, that’s also fine by me as long as everything is legal/legit (not sure which word is correct) and if you say that your Pokémon are genned when battling another person you are in contact with (and as long as the person in question is okay with it, of course). What I’m not okay with is using genned Pokémon for official tournaments or VGC. Neither am I okay with someone trying to get on the leaderboards for Battle Facilities with genned Pokémon. Though I am okay with people who use genned Pokémon in Battle Facilities if they are just playing for fun and not planning to get on the leaderboards. Apart from that, I am not really okay with trading genned Pokémon. However, similar to battling, I suppose trading genned Pokémon can be okay if you say the Pokémon is genned and the person you are trading with is fine with that. But otherwise, I am not okay with it. So that’s my view on genning.

I should also mention that while I don’t do genning, I do RNG abuse on Gen 4 & 5, which I know some players consider to be cheating. And I think they are entitled to their opinion, I just disagree with them (see the Colress image I posted above).

Edit: Legal was the word I was looking for, thanks Siggu.

Edit 2: One of the links stopped working properly, fixed it.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I really don't get the hassle with genning mons.

Breeding is a slow, tedious process. Grinding for whatever resources (Ability Patches/Capsules, Bottle Caps, level grinding, BP grinding, etc...) is also very repetitive and well, grindy.

Now, I'm not saying illegal mons are cool. But at some point, you gotta look at it objectively, you're going to dump quite a bit of time for each mon, which would be a bother for a regular team of 6, but what if you want more? What if you want some flexibility to switch up your crew every once in a while?

There are reasons Showdown is so popular, being able to build a team relatively quickly is one of them. Similarly, I understand people that would want to cut to the chase and fix their mons quickly.

Also, seriously, who's idea was it to make Hyper Training locked to endgame AND lv. 100?

Hard disagree, I think gen 5 has the best sprites in the series, but it's subjective so whatever.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one, but I've bumped into an old post going in detail why exactly Gen 5 in-battle animations bother me so much.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/unpopular-opinions.3530232/page-278#post-8468331

 

[Chadlad50]

Is there a difference between genning Pokemon and "illegal" ones? if so my gripes might be towards the illegal ones if there is a difference, but I'm not sure

As for the gen 5 sprites I'm mixed on them. Some of them look great in my opinion, and some others just look like older sprites but stretched out and awkwardly moving. Scraggy's sprite is perfection, however

 

[Siggu]

Is there a difference between genning Pokemon and "illegal" ones? if so my gripes might be towards the illegal ones if there is a difference, but I'm not sure

Basically there's this distinction:
- Legit: A Pokémon obtained without any kind of aid that is not already provided by the game or does not involves cheats. Unless it involves breeding with illegal Pokémon, they are always legal.
- Legal: A Pokémon not obtained through legitimate means but is still within the game's parameters. In layman's terms, it LOOKS legit, but isn't. Clones of legit Pokémon fall in this category.
- Illegal: Well... those Pokémon that have something that is not within the game's parameters. Those that are hacked to the point of having incorrect abilities, moves, combinations, etc.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Is there a difference between genning Pokemon and "illegal" ones? if so my gripes might be towards the illegal ones if there is a difference, but I'm not sure

Yes, basically, a genned mon is indistinguishable from a pure-bred mon.

An illegal one is something like, Dragon Dance Garchomp.

 

[Fusion Flare]

Yes, basically, a genned mon is indistinguishable from a pure-bred mon.

An illegal one is something like, Dragon Dance Garchomp.

Which wouldn't be as good as Swords Dance + Scale Shot Garchomp, give or take.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Which wouldn't be as good as Swords Dance + Scale Shot Garchomp, give or take.

I find Scale Shot too unreliable and inconsistent damage-wise to have as a main STAB option. Also, that defense drop isn't quite something I'm comfortable with.

But I digress...

 

[Chadlad50]

As someone who played around with Scale Shot + Swords Dance Garchomp it has it's moments. Sometimes it can start a devastating sweep, sometimes it misses and Garchomp ends up doing absolutely nothing. 90% accuracy...seems to miss more than Focus Blast honestly

I feel Dragon Dance is better. More reliable and only takes one turn

 

[BlizzardHero]

I really don't get the hassle with genning mons.

Breeding is a slow, tedious process. Grinding for whatever resources (Ability Patches/Capsules, Bottle Caps, level grinding, BP grinding, etc...) is also very repetitive and well, grindy.

Now, I'm not saying illegal mons are cool. But at some point, you gotta look at it objectively, you're going to dump quite a bit of time for each mon, which would be a bother for a regular team of 6, but what if you want more? What if you want some flexibility to switch up your crew every once in a while?

There are reasons Showdown is so popular, being able to build a team relatively quickly is one of them. Similarly, I understand people that would want to cut to the chase and fix their mons quickly.

Also, seriously, who's idea was it to make Hyper Training locked to endgame AND lv. 100?

The issue has less to do with how it affects the person modifying the game and more to do with how it affects others.

I don't think it's too outlandish to state that most people don't care what you do in your singleplayer game (except GF ofc, they've done their level best to try and make it impossible). It's when you start interacting with people who don't have that ability that it becomes problematic. Certainly there will always be some ability disparity, but anyone who does not have access to third party software/devices will always be at a distinct disadvantage to people who do.

Yes, the process to breed/raise competitive Pokemon does take some effort, but everyone has to do it, IE. it's a level playing field. But, if you skip that work, then it gives you more time to practice, read up on strategies, enter tournaments, etc., - things that the people who do everything legitimately will not have the same time for.

It becomes worse when you start actively modifying Pokemon during competitions. A while back, someone was straight up caught modifying their Pokemon (I think it was a Primal Kyogre?) between matches. And he was one of the few people actually caught doing it. It's frankly impossible for anyone w/o access to such software to match that kind of cheating. The advantages of third party software/devices is pretty self-evident.

Or, in a non-competitive sense, what about getting ribbons? It can take months to years to raise up a Ribbon Master, depending on where they start and the dedication involved (and if they got Dexited :/). But, it only takes 30 seconds with a modifying device to do that same work. Is that fair to the people who actually put in the hard work and effort, especially if those modified Pokemon start getting offered as the real thing?

Now, I don't want to come off as mean or anything. Most people who do modify Pokemon aren't doing it beacuse they're some cackling villain who wants to lord over the plebian masses with their 6IV Shiny Arceus. But, the disparity is still inherent to the act, regardless of intent. It's for that reason why modifying Pokemon should have no place beyond singleplayer (or consensual multiplayer, where everyone involved agrees to such).

Of course, if you are struggling with breeding/raising/catching Pokemon, head over to WiFi where there are plenty of great people who can help!

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Yes, the process to breed/raise competitive Pokemon does take some effort, but everyone has to do it, IE. it's a level playing field. But, if you skip that work, then it gives you more time to practice, read up on strategies, enter tournaments, etc., - things that the people who do everything legitimately will not have the same time for.

On the other hand, as someone here stated earlier, some people just don't quite have the time to go through the boring process.

I'll build on that. Competitive players tend to be older. This means that they're likely to deal with adult things that will eat a chunk of time on a daily basis.

Said people may still enjoy competitive battling. Maybe they won't travel across the land and be the very best on VGC, but they're definitely up for a scrap or two.

You're essentially telling these people this: "Ok, I know you just had a rough, stressful day at work and wants to chill playing video games, but look, you have to grind that inane, mind-numbingly boring process before you get to have fun."

I can't in good conscience tell these people that.

Of course, if you are struggling with breeding/raising/catching Pokemon, head over to WiFi where there are plenty of great people who can help!

I see that low-key disrespect fam. You'll need better bait than that tho.

 

[The Mind Electric]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one, but I've bumped into an old post going in detail why exactly Gen 5 in-battle animations bother me so much.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/unpopular-opinions.3530232/page-278#post-8468331

I read it and I don't really see what you're talking about with the contortions and such, but whatever. I do think the sprites would be better if they didn't just keep doing their animations like nothing is happening when they're attacking/getting attacked, but it doesn't annoy me too much.

 

[BlizzardHero]

On the other hand, as someone here stated earlier, some people just don't quite have the time to go through the boring process.

I'll build on that. Competitive players tend to be older. This means that they're likely to deal with adult things that will eat a chunk of time on a daily basis.

Said people may still enjoy competitive battling. Maybe they won't travel across the land and be the very best on VGC, but they're definitely up for a scrap or two.

You're essentially telling these people this: "Ok, I know you just had a rough, stressful day at work and wants to chill playing video games, but look, you have to grind that inane, mind-numbingly boring process before you get to have fun."

I can't in good conscience tell these people that.

Okay, so what do you tell to the people who want to get into or progress in competitive/VGC? Tough luck, guess you have to go buy an AR/Powersaves/go homebrew your device, otherwise you'll never be able to compare to the people who can print Pokemon in seconds? I honestly don't think there's an answer that wouldn't make it gatekeep-y.

There's probably no answer that would satisfy everyone's needs. Someone will be disadvantaged in any scenario (whether it's the person who doesn't have a whole lot of time, or newcomers who can't access third party software). But, perhaps this is just me, I'd rather the barrier be something that's technically free (the time invested) rather than capital.

I also haaaaaaard disagree that competitive players tend to be older. Competitive players that are active on forums, YT, etc., tend to be older. Competitive players as a whole are rather mixed. VGC literally has two age brackets underneath Masters - the oldest you can be for these brackets is ~16 (And honestly, the kids in Junior playing VGC are a lot more fun to watch than the same stale teams in Masters). Ranked/Random battles probably have a similar makeup.

I see that low-key disrespect fam. You'll need better bait than that tho.

Nah, I meant that shameless plug recommendation honestly. There are a lot of good people over there who will absolutely help if you ask. All the tools anyone needs to get started breeding are readily available thanks to some wonderful people. Heck, if you wanted to just trade for some competitive Mons, a number of people will give them to you for free.

 

[Ironmage]

Yes, the process to breed/raise competitive Pokemon does take some effort, but everyone has to do it, IE. it's a level playing field. But, if you skip that work, then it gives you more time to practice, read up on strategies, enter tournaments, etc., - things that the people who do everything legitimately will not have the same time for.

I have to disagree on this point. A tournament player could spend time and effort getting mons to competitive standard, but they could also trade for them. And, if the other side of the trade agreement isn't based on game factors, then it's just in the same position as genning: getting a time advantage by using out-of-game resources. So since traded mons aren't going to be banned anytime soon (it would go against a main foundation for the game, and would interact badly with trade evos and version exclusives), I'm not seeing how genning specifically provides an appreciable advantage over legitimate means. Over one person's legit efforts? Sure. But we have no good way of forcing it to just be one person's efforts that went into a given team.

Or maybe this is just my autistic self being salty over people who can make connections easily.

 

[Nokocchi]

As I say often, it's impossible to make turn based games challenging for veterans, it's just too easy to break them due to the lack of "urgency" in the gameplay.

Apparently you've never played against some of the more sadistic bonus bosses in the Dragon Quest or Shin Megami Tensei franchises.

 

[RocketSurgery]

See, all the things you described are just mindless prep work. The actual competition is a test of team composition and especially in-battle piloting. If what the hacked Pokemon "do with the gift of life" is fairly compete (i.e. no illegal movesets, no overmaxed EVs, etc.) then how they came into being doesn't matter.

I mostly agree with the premises, but not necessarily the final conclusion that how the mons came into being doesn't matter, because that implicitly presumes the that the only difference between 'legit' and 'genned' Pokemon in the competition are how they were obtained, i.e., that both types of players are showing up with fully optimized teams.

However, I would argue that it is relatively easier for genned teams to be fully optimized by competition times than legit teams, potentially giving genned teams advantages over legit teams. It comes down to the fact that the mindless prep work isn't just tedious work, it's randomized tedious work. In a competitive game where probability management is a major component, genning mons allows you to remove the pre-game probability and 100% guarantee you get the optimal IVs, EVs, and movesets on all of your mons by the time the competition comes around (barring typos and such when genning your mons). Similarly, genning allows you to change mons right down to the wire, e.g., right before you have to lock in your team in VGC competitions. With the QoL improvements that have been implemented each gen recently these potential advantages are dwindling, at this point mostly coming down to fine-tuning IVs that are not to be maxed (attack, speed, Stakataka defense, Glastrier speed in some cases), particularly on legendaries from dynamax adventures or Calyrex and its horses.

Given enough time, a 'legit' player will eventually be able to get all of the desired mons with desired IVs/EVs/moves, but in limited amounts of time they cannot guarantee they will be able to show up to the competition with optimized Pokemon. This could happen with some VGC competitions where the competitions took place within a week of the game/dlc dropping. Depending on the team, in such a timeframe it can be difficult to ensure that you show up with a properly optimized team, while the Pkhex devs are usually pretty quick at updating the tool within these timeframes!

A while back VGC player Edu wrote a thread about his experience making sure all of his mons were legitimately obtained, highlighting these difficulties and how much time it took to obtain them all. He also erroneously comes to the conclusion that making sure all of his mons were legit made no difference to his results, it just cost him a lot of time. I say he comes to the conclusion erroneously not because the conclusion itself is necessarily incorrect, but because it doesn't follow from his results---he ultimately obtained the optimized sets for all of his mons, so we would expect there to be no difference in terms of team composition between his teams and genned teams, just the amount of time he devoted to obtaining the team rather than practicing.

To actually test whether genning mons gives a significant advantage or not, one would need to show, statistically, that there is no significant difference in the rates that similarly skilled players win tournaments, etc., using suboptimal Pokemon versus fully optimized Pokemon. If it were to turn out that having a 0 attack IV was consequential far less frequently than during-game probability like will o' wisp misses, then the conclusion that genning mons doesn't matter would not only be on much firmer ground, but we could give an actual quantitative assessment as to how likely such optimizations are to matter in any game outcome. I would guess that the optimization that matters most is the speed IV on trick room teams, particularly on legendaries.

To be clear, I am not arguing that genning mons in and of itself is immoral, I fully sympathize with the desire to not spending buckets of time getting optimized mons. My point is that the arguments that genning offers no competitive advantage tend to focus striking down the straw-person argument that genned mons with legit stats/movesets are magically better than legitimately obtained mons, but I have yet to see an actual analysis of the relative advantages of suboptimal versus optimized mons, which is where I would expect situations to arise where genning mons may yield some advantage over legitimate methods by removing the pre-game probability associated with IV optimization.