Excuse me sir, are you *daring* to say you want to have fun playing a game?
Please, get out, we don't do that here.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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Please, get out, we don't do that here.
Since we're kind of on the topic here's a truly unpopular opinion: I actually like regions that force you to use HMs. Part of the team building challenge for me is not just crafting a good battling team but also a team that can traverse difficult terrain. It's not an inconvenience for me as much as a fun challenge. It's one of the reasons I like Hoenn and Sinnoh so much because it feels like a true accomplishment to have not just defeated every trainer but also successfully built a team that can navigate the regions without HM slaves.
And trust me it is possible to navigate both without Zigzagoon and Bibarel. It just requires planning. I understand HMs are not everyone's cup of tea but for me it adds to the richness and challenge of a region to have them implemented as roadblocks. Particularly Victory Roads which are supposed to serve as a rite of passage, should have a fair number of them. Hoenn and Sinnoh's Victory Roads were very well designed in my opinion due in some part to this reason.
And trust me it is possible to navigate both without Zigzagoon and Bibarel. It just requires planning. I understand HMs are not everyone's cup of tea but for me it adds to the richness and challenge of a region to have them implemented as roadblocks. Particularly Victory Roads which are supposed to serve as a rite of passage, should have a fair number of them. Hoenn and Sinnoh's Victory Roads were very well designed in my opinion due in some part to this reason.
I've only played 1 Pokemon game with HMs and I thought they were fine, and even a little fun (Pokemon X). But my issue is I have a lot of fun building up good movesets in a casual setting, which is hard to do if you have to load up on really crappy moves in order to progress.
That's where my main issue lies: Most of the moves stink even casually. I'm not talking about like, Fly. That move is mediocre competitively but it's perfectly alright in a casual game since AI are stupid and don't know what "switching out" means. I mean the moves like Cut, Rock Smash, Defog. None of these moves are useful even in the most casual of environments. Cut is outclassed by another HM in the form of strength, Rock Smash is usually outclassed by almost any attacking move (the defense drop can be useful but I'd rather use another 40BP Fighting move like Power Up Punch). And Defog...
If HMs were at the very least decent casually like Fly, I'd have no problem. I love the idea of HMs as a concept...but execution wise they should be reworked or stay gone. My idea is to make it so you get the ability to use a "Hidden technique" and a TM for a move that can be used for that hidden technique, like Rock Smash, but down the line you could use almost any Fighting type move for that same function, so you still need your Pokemon to help you traverse through the region but you can do it with actually useful moves. It does remove a bit of the "challenge" or need to plan out your moves if you can just use almost any move for the technique, but I think it's a fair trade to not have to use an HM Mule or load up otherwise worthless moves on your team.
That's where my main issue lies: Most of the moves stink even casually. I'm not talking about like, Fly. That move is mediocre competitively but it's perfectly alright in a casual game since AI are stupid and don't know what "switching out" means. I mean the moves like Cut, Rock Smash, Defog. None of these moves are useful even in the most casual of environments. Cut is outclassed by another HM in the form of strength, Rock Smash is usually outclassed by almost any attacking move (the defense drop can be useful but I'd rather use another 40BP Fighting move like Power Up Punch). And Defog...
If HMs were at the very least decent casually like Fly, I'd have no problem. I love the idea of HMs as a concept...but execution wise they should be reworked or stay gone. My idea is to make it so you get the ability to use a "Hidden technique" and a TM for a move that can be used for that hidden technique, like Rock Smash, but down the line you could use almost any Fighting type move for that same function, so you still need your Pokemon to help you traverse through the region but you can do it with actually useful moves. It does remove a bit of the "challenge" or need to plan out your moves if you can just use almost any move for the technique, but I think it's a fair trade to not have to use an HM Mule or load up otherwise worthless moves on your team.
Another thing with HMs is that, for some (mainly looking at Cut/Rock Smash&Climb/Waterfall), you have to use them over and over and over on the same damn overworld element.
Seriously, I smashed that rock an hour ago, how come another one took its place already? Are we somehow dealing with sentient roc- wait a minute.
But for real, constantly mashing A in caves, with unskippable animations to boot, can become a real pain real fast. Not to mentions it means you have ro bring you HM mons if you want to backtrack.
I would like for some sort of flag to be added that tells the game 'okay, this element has already been dealt with', kind of how Strength boulder stay in their hole for the entire game (may be a recent QoL change?). If you come across such an element and press A, the boulder crumbles/the tree gets cut, with only the overworld animation playing and no team requirements.
That, imo, would allow balance between layers of exploration and being a general annoyance.
Seriously, I smashed that rock an hour ago, how come another one took its place already? Are we somehow dealing with sentient roc- wait a minute.
But for real, constantly mashing A in caves, with unskippable animations to boot, can become a real pain real fast. Not to mentions it means you have ro bring you HM mons if you want to backtrack.
I would like for some sort of flag to be added that tells the game 'okay, this element has already been dealt with', kind of how Strength boulder stay in their hole for the entire game (may be a recent QoL change?). If you come across such an element and press A, the boulder crumbles/the tree gets cut, with only the overworld animation playing and no team requirements.
That, imo, would allow balance between layers of exploration and being a general annoyance.
That was added in Gen V, when Strength was changed from "Hey, let's put a Sokoban puzzle for no reason" to "Use this to open alternate or better paths to backtrack".
If I may ask, what hack did you make?
That's the thing, I really like overworld puzzles and things like that as a break in the pacing of the game. It's just that half the time in Pokemon they're not that good. "Use Cut" is not a puzzle, TRICK MASTER. I'd love more OG Strength puzzles, one-way routes, and other cleverness, but they've gotten rid of a lot of that as they phazed out HMs.
It's a crack joke hack in progress, so for the most part it's like Vanilla emerald story wise
there are *some* upgrades though. Like surf speed, mon additions/diversity, battle speed, moves from later gens, mon buffs, type changes for effectiveness, etc mainly so you can interact with the joke fast: the NPC and Pokedex text! In short, not done (only about 80% done with trainer text)
But to bring back to the point
Trick Master was honestly really nice. I like how you can't "brute force" your way already knowing a code when you get to the door. It encouraged fighting the trainers there as well, and something not noted, was completely optional for an area
And this is where I feel Legends has a chance. If they implement something like learnable field moves for the trainer themselves, we could have something great. Or as some noted, have it so mons can learn field moves as a separate class with categories to battle moves (so cutting like slash, cut, false swipe moves are a category as opposed to it being rigidly 1 move)
General thoughts on HMs: I get what they were going for, you have these creatures which are your travelling companions thus they should also have utility outside of battle. So there are these Moves they can learn to help the player get around obstacles. Okay, so far good. Problem is in execution where you have to teach the Pokemon the HMs (and some aren't that good). Now this idea goes from being a unique way to add depth to the team your forming to limiting your choices not just in Moves slots but also with what Party slots.
Were they still doing HMs, my solution would not require a Pokemon to have to learn the HM to use it on the field. You approach a rock, you have the Rock Smash TM, and you have a Pokemon that can use Rock Smash? Good, that Pokemon temporary uses the Rock Smash field technique without needing to learn the Move. I was also in favor of just generally allowing the player to be able to hold more Pokemon (they'll always have 6 Pokemon which are considered active, but outside of battle you'll have like 3 more on your belt you can swap in & out without needing a PC; though I guess now with the Portable PC this no longer matters) and Pokemon able to heva more move slots (they'll always have 4 moves that are considered active, but outside of battle they'll know like 2 more they can swap in & out without needing the Move Reminder).
I'm not sure if they'll ever return to HMs, though I would have personally like to see a set of items based on the older HMs (to save time, here's another post where I listed them, they're at the very bottom of the post).
HM Moves Aren't So Good: Actually, that very same post also have my suggestions on how to maybe make the HM Moves worth teaching your Pokemon. My idea was having Power & additional effects increase the more Badges (or their equivalent) you have. That way the usefulness of the HM grew with your journey and Pokemon making them feel like less deadweight. I'd also have a way to change the Normal-type HMs to certain other Types if they would match the user's primary STAB.
Using Over & Over Again: Yeah, for the general obstacle that was just meant to be a roadblock they should definitely have it programmed the game keeps those particular obstacles gone once dealt with. But I also think wouldn't be a bad idea to have places where the HMs could be used over and over again. I'd also increase ways to use the HMs, pretty much my ideas detailed at the bottom of this post. But sticking with what we're discussing, I could see there being an off to the side area where there's a batch of rocks which respawn and breaking the rocks can get you items like Star Dust & Evo Stones. Maybe have groves of trees which can be cut to get some extra Berries.
I think there could be a way to make interesting puzzles using the HMs. Trick Master wasn't nearly thinking that hard. Some general ideas (which could also be combined with other HMs to make more complex puzzles you may need to think a few steps ahead of to figure out):
Cut: There are trees blocking a waterway you need to cut to unblock the water to flow though and do things like raise floating platforms or fill up a weight. Could also have objects dangling by a rope you need to cut to use on a lower level or need to cut in a certain order. Cut some wires to stop or redirect a circuit to open doors, activate a switch, etc..
Strength: Honestly just moving around objects can create plenty of good puzzles, just Pokemon never really wanted it to be more complex than moving an object aside or at most onto a switch.
Rock Smash: How about instead of just completely destroying an object, you only make it smaller/weaker/lighter and can use that for weight puzzles, getting the smashable object to the right condition to accomplish what you need of them.
I seem to be in a minority when I say that I really like the 3DS Virtual Console re-releases, and don't see why people dislike them so much.
Obviously, nostalgia means I'm ecstatic to play the Gen II games again, but I've also downloaded the Gen I games and enjoy those too. The convenience of having so many games on one screen and being able to quickly load them up is great - the games run just as well as they did on the GBC, if not better. If nothing else, it's reassuring to have a version of the game that (touch wood) should actually last a while rather than the time-limited cartridge versions. (Also, BACKLIGHTING. Fucking hell, backlighting.)
I also like how simplified connecting to other games is. I rarely got the chance to trade, so it's been liberating to do that so simply and easily. The VC Pokemon Yellow allowing you to play the Pikachu's Beach minigame was a cool feature for me personally, as it was the first time I ever played it (though it's a pity they couldn't have found a way for Pikachu to actually learn Surf). The addition of the Celebi event to Crystal, too, was much appreciated and let me achieve my long-held dream of finally catching the thing. And while I don't make a lot of use of it, the ability to transfer Pokemon to the Gen VII games is very welcome.
I'm not saying they're flawless, because I'm aware that - in comparison to their cartridge releases - you don't quite get the full effect. As someone who never got to play the Stadium titles, it would have been much appreciated to have some form of re-release concurrent with these titles, particularly in light of all the event Pokemon and items those games made available. It's also annoying to me that the games can't communicate with any other infrared systems like the Pokemon Pikachu 2 GS or even the original cartridge versions.
The lack of events also makes them feel quite limited, too. I'm aware that not every event can be replicated, but it's a shame when you look at all the NYPC events - many of which gave a lot of species sorely needed moves, like Rock Throw for Kabuto - that are now lost to time. There was only ever one event to get Mew and - despite the fact that it took place in the city I live in - I wasn't able to attend because it was very limited. And while I wasn't expecting the full mobile GB system for Crystal as it was never implemented in the Western editions originally, I don't think it would have been beyond the realms of possibility to do some sort of WiFi events for all six of the games replicating the link cable events that took place back in the day. I just don't think GF cared enough.
Ironically, my sister messaged me a couple of months ago and asked if we still had Pokemon Red and Yellow. I said I wasn't sure where they were, but reminded her that they can be downloaded on the VC, and she replied "ugh, it just doesn't hit the same on the 2DS". That's zoomers for you, I guess. I personally prefer how my 3DS feels in my hand over the GBC.
Overall, they're perfectly decent and serviceable reproductions of the original games, and I've invested a lot of time into the Gen II titles in particular of late. But I'd genuinely be very interested to read opinions to the contrary, as I've definitely seen at least a couple of people on this forum express their dislike of them.
Obviously, nostalgia means I'm ecstatic to play the Gen II games again, but I've also downloaded the Gen I games and enjoy those too. The convenience of having so many games on one screen and being able to quickly load them up is great - the games run just as well as they did on the GBC, if not better. If nothing else, it's reassuring to have a version of the game that (touch wood) should actually last a while rather than the time-limited cartridge versions. (Also, BACKLIGHTING. Fucking hell, backlighting.)
I also like how simplified connecting to other games is. I rarely got the chance to trade, so it's been liberating to do that so simply and easily. The VC Pokemon Yellow allowing you to play the Pikachu's Beach minigame was a cool feature for me personally, as it was the first time I ever played it (though it's a pity they couldn't have found a way for Pikachu to actually learn Surf). The addition of the Celebi event to Crystal, too, was much appreciated and let me achieve my long-held dream of finally catching the thing. And while I don't make a lot of use of it, the ability to transfer Pokemon to the Gen VII games is very welcome.
I'm not saying they're flawless, because I'm aware that - in comparison to their cartridge releases - you don't quite get the full effect. As someone who never got to play the Stadium titles, it would have been much appreciated to have some form of re-release concurrent with these titles, particularly in light of all the event Pokemon and items those games made available. It's also annoying to me that the games can't communicate with any other infrared systems like the Pokemon Pikachu 2 GS or even the original cartridge versions.
The lack of events also makes them feel quite limited, too. I'm aware that not every event can be replicated, but it's a shame when you look at all the NYPC events - many of which gave a lot of species sorely needed moves, like Rock Throw for Kabuto - that are now lost to time. There was only ever one event to get Mew and - despite the fact that it took place in the city I live in - I wasn't able to attend because it was very limited. And while I wasn't expecting the full mobile GB system for Crystal as it was never implemented in the Western editions originally, I don't think it would have been beyond the realms of possibility to do some sort of WiFi events for all six of the games replicating the link cable events that took place back in the day. I just don't think GF cared enough.
Ironically, my sister messaged me a couple of months ago and asked if we still had Pokemon Red and Yellow. I said I wasn't sure where they were, but reminded her that they can be downloaded on the VC, and she replied "ugh, it just doesn't hit the same on the 2DS". That's zoomers for you, I guess. I personally prefer how my 3DS feels in my hand over the GBC.
Overall, they're perfectly decent and serviceable reproductions of the original games, and I've invested a lot of time into the Gen II titles in particular of late. But I'd genuinely be very interested to read opinions to the contrary, as I've definitely seen at least a couple of people on this forum express their dislike of them.
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Unpopular opinion, Jay Goede >> Dan Green as Mewtwo. Shame everyone only remember's Dan Green's rendition, since he appeared more times later, and was in the remake
Dan's still a good VA, but Jay especially in the extended intro of the first movie really sold his inner turmoil to me. Shame it was his only role for voice acting along with Dr. Fuji
Dan's still a good VA, but Jay especially in the extended intro of the first movie really sold his inner turmoil to me. Shame it was his only role for voice acting along with Dr. Fuji
I'd rank Goede at the top too. I might even rank Ichimura above Dan Green to be honest. Mainly because I can't mentally separate Dan Green from Yami Yugi's voice. In SSBM Ichimura makes Mewtwo sound pretty fucked up, in a good way:
That was more due to garbage audio due to the game being rushed, but he is good. Shame Smash 4/Ult replaced him, though the remake brought him back
....and then Detective Pikachu they use the VA from the Genesect movie.....
Shouldn't be typing all that at 1am...
Oh well, basically, the lack of field moves hurt SwSh to no end. But not just SwSh. This is a problem that takes root allllll the way back in Gen 5.
After Sinnoh's excessive use of HMs, Unova had ONE mandatory Cut tree. Amazing!
So uhhhhh, what's stopping people from just walking around that big ol loop?
View attachment 367601
And just like that, exploration changed. Instead of having natural barriers that trainers had to overcome with their pokémon, you have random people blocking you for whatever reason.
Now let's take a look at, say, Rock Climb. A field move that adds a whole layer of exploration, despite being pretty much like Waterfall just because it adds a lot of verticality to a region.
If it wasn't a pretty unimpressive move, it'd be a very good thing, but alas... here lies one of the two biggest issues with HMs.
A lot of these moves are TRASH.
Cut is worse than Tackle in Gen 5. Straight up. And it gets even worse when you remember that it'll be a while until you can get rid of it.
But the worst part of Cut is its field application.
You have a mon with Cut in your party. You press A. Now you can move on.
It literally is an item check. It's a puzzle that you can't fail. This makes for a horrible dungeon-building tool. Wanna see an example of what I mean?
Remember the Trick House? Poor guy tried his hardest to make a Cut puzzle. It just didn't work.
Oh well, basically, the lack of field moves hurt SwSh to no end. But not just SwSh. This is a problem that takes root allllll the way back in Gen 5.
After Sinnoh's excessive use of HMs, Unova had ONE mandatory Cut tree. Amazing!
So uhhhhh, what's stopping people from just walking around that big ol loop?
View attachment 367601
And just like that, exploration changed. Instead of having natural barriers that trainers had to overcome with their pokémon, you have random people blocking you for whatever reason.
Now let's take a look at, say, Rock Climb. A field move that adds a whole layer of exploration, despite being pretty much like Waterfall just because it adds a lot of verticality to a region.
If it wasn't a pretty unimpressive move, it'd be a very good thing, but alas... here lies one of the two biggest issues with HMs.
A lot of these moves are TRASH.
Cut is worse than Tackle in Gen 5. Straight up. And it gets even worse when you remember that it'll be a while until you can get rid of it.
But the worst part of Cut is its field application.
You have a mon with Cut in your party. You press A. Now you can move on.
It literally is an item check. It's a puzzle that you can't fail. This makes for a horrible dungeon-building tool. Wanna see an example of what I mean?
Remember the Trick House? Poor guy tried his hardest to make a Cut puzzle. It just didn't work.
As a few users pointed out, there are solutions for this.
- Give permanent Link Box after your first visit to any Pokémon Center’s PC so that you can store HM Slaves and bring them whenever needed at any time.
- Make all HMs at least decent, as to not waste moveslots by useless moves. This one is difficult to execute correctly though.
- Replace them with ”Field Techniques” equivalent on compatible Pokémon. These do not take moveslots, and if Link Box is included, temporarily calls them if you have a compatible Pokémon in any box. That encourages catching one or two “HM Slaves” (now called Field Technique Slaves) without slowing down speedrunning too much. Those in firsthand box from Box 1 to Box (maximum) will be selected first.
- Bring back something along the line of Poké Pager, but for your own Pokémon capable of the function even if they don’t have the move.
- And like in Let’s Go and Legends: Arceus, you can ride on compatible Pokémon that aren’t tiny without the need of Link Box (or lack thereof in Legends: Arceus’ case) if you have one in your party.
Or the simplest of all: make HM moves forgettable without a Move Deleter.
Why can't they be replaced by level-up moves? Even back in Gen I, it made little sense as you could simply teach them the move again.
Especially since TMs are now reusable like HMs before them. TRs, were they stay, that’s another story especially if all of your lead Pokémon’s moves are learned through TRs, but we do have Move Relearners for this.
I got another unpopular opinion so that it’s not a one-liner; Exceptional Pokémon (600 BST second evolutions) having Dragon-type since Generation 4 throughout Generation 8 started to become stale and tired by itself, even if each of them were memorable in their own right, especially Garchomp and Dragapult.
We already have two Exceptional Pokémon that does not have Dragon-type since their introduction - Tyranitar and Metagross - so what is stopping Game Freak from making at least another one? Grimmsnarl was even mistaken for one due to how fierce it looks, albeit in hindsight, not being one is for the better due to access of Prankster.
It would also be interesting to have two lines of Exceptional Pokémon again like back in Hoenn with Salamence and Metagross. It might even serves as a compromise to have one Dragon-type Exceptional Pokémon and another that is not Dragon-type!
Fair enough, let's keep a single exception for when Surf or Dive are actively being used by the Pokémon you want to change moves for.
That would low key be a bit messy to code in unless they keep in track your map location mid-battle at all times.
I don't think that's the case and GF's spaghetti code definitely wouldn't be up to the task.
Portable Box is expected to happen in BDSP, but I dunno how they're going to handle the HMs themselves.
Not really, you just gotta keep the power in mind for when they're available.
Cut for example could very well be retooled into a Steel-type "Swift" and it'd be functional.
Ideally, we'd be in a SwSh situation where there's a Move Deleter on every Pokécenter.
The main difference being it actually costing you know... ANYTHING instead of "Got an early stone evo? Just break the game!"
Money would be a good start. I dunno. 5k per move would have people at least thinking twice before picking moves and it wouldn't be a massive grindfest late-game.
Actually, it makes perfect sense in gen 1. Gen 1 had a highly limited bag space, so you would almost certainly need to use the item storage in the PC. This could result in players overwriting an HM move in a place that requires that move to exit, and without said HM in their inventory.
Here's an idea: Have HM moves' power scale up, with +5 BP for every badge you get after acquiring the move. So for example Rock Smash starts at 40 pre-gym 1, but by the end becomes 80 BP
They couldn't even code Surfing properly as recently as ORAS (when you're Surfing on a Wailmer and it evolves, the game freezes). There's no way they'd pull off something as comparatively complex as what you suggested.
In Gen I, there was only one item pocket, so depositing HMs into your PC was fairly common after you taught the moves. What if you forgot an HM move needed to leave the area you were at, with no way to access the PC and thus the HMs?
Gen II games and Ruby/Sapphire also allowed you to deposit HMs, Even though the games had a dedicated TM/HM pocket that could fit all of them at once.