Data Updated Base Stats

[Arch]

Celever, I wasn't saying it exclusively had Dual + Rocks, lmao. The main reason he has a niche with Dual Screens is the fact his Wishpasses are massive over, say, Clefable.

Ckarasu, I guess Trick Room is an option but that's like saying you can run Pidgeot with Life Orb for offensive options. It's there but it's severely outclassed by so many other things. Wigglytuff was only good as a supportive role. Competitive, a very shaky offensive ability, will not be changing that soon.

 

[Ckarasu]

Fine, let's use a Competitive Pokemon, I have a choice between:
Wigglytuff
Milotic
Gothitelle
Meowstic (female)

Ok I probably won't use Gothitelle unless complex bans happen this generation, allowing BL Gothitelle to stay in BL and Competitive to drop down to Wigglytuff's tier. Gothorita could be a possibility in lower tiers if you really want to use a Competitive Pokemon though. Milotic is the best Pokemon out of the bunch; bulky and now powerful, and he doesn't really have a need for the other abilities available to him, though Marvel Scale is nice. We don't really know how Meowstic (female) will play out but I'm willing to bet he will play out better than Wigglytuff.

Arch there are a hell of a lot of Pokemon that can run that.
Celever: /dexsearch Light Screen, Reflect, Stealth Rock, all: Clefairy, Clefable, Jigglypuff, Wigglytuff, Mew, Pineco, Forretress, Magcargo, Swinub, Piloswine, Corsola, Smeargle, Celebi, Lunatone, Solrock, Baltoy, Claydol, Metang, Metagross, Jirachi, Deoxys, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Defense, Deoxys-Speed, Turtwig, Grotle, Torterra, Bronzor, Bronzong, Mamoswine, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Arceus, Arceus-Bug, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Dragon, Arceus-Electric, Arceus-Fairy, Arceus-Fighting, Arceus-Fire, Arceus-Flying, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Ice, Arceus-Poison, Arceus-Psychic, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Water, Carbink

Ckarasu I feel like people think that RU is the shitmons tier NU the shit shitmons tier. Sceptile is very viable in UU, you have Slowking in RU, Druddigon in RU. Durant was banned from RU for a while but he's in it now. The pokemon in RU are not complete shit - Quagsire was a titan of Adv OU (I think, never really played the tier but I know a bit about it) and he's down in RU. Aggron can take out most of OU with Head Smashes and he's in RU, a hell of a lot of fantastic Pokemon that are being hyped this generation are in RU. Clefable, Galvantula, Absol, Aggron, Aerodactyl, Manectric. I would say that Cryogonal is viable in OU too looking at one I've seen people using - yet to try this though. Wigglytuff was shit in PU, Fairy-Type gives it a "niche" that leaves it flawed by Clefable still, even if Clefable moves up it has few niches, and most are not good ones.

RU is the "not so good" tier. Wiggly has a huge movepool, and a passable 85 special attack. Competitive boosts that stat to close to great levels. Meowstic, to my knowledge, has weaker special attack than Wiggly. And Gothitelle has way better things to be doing. Being immune to Ghost and Dragon doesn't hurt, either.

Celever, I wasn't saying it exclusively saying had Dual + Rocks, lmao. The main reason he has a niche with Dual Screens is the fact his Wishpasses are massive over, say, Clefable.

Ckarasu, I guess Trick Room is an option but that's like saying you can run Pidgeot with Life Orb for offensive options. It's there but it's severely outclassed by so many other things. Wigglytuff was only good as a supportive role. Competitive, a very shaky offensive ability, will not be changing that soon.

Except Pidgeot is weaker in terms of moves it gets in combination of its stats, but I get your point. Still, you understate just how easy it is to get Competitive off(It won't always work, obviously). Again, a niche. I'd argue it's better than the support set, as so many things can stop that set with no issue.

 

[Celever]

RU is the "not so good" tier. Wiggly has a huge movepool, and a passable 85 special attack. Competitive boosts that stat to close to great levels. Meowstic, to my knowledge, has weaker special attack than Wiggly. And Gothitelle has way better things to be doing. Being immune to Ghost and Dragon doesn't hurt, either.

Ghost and Dragon are pretty rare in the lower tiers, and one typing isn't really going to change that. Arch actually made a good argument about the wish passes, I kinda forgot about that and that gives it a niche yeah, a pretty small one but definitely a better one than Competitive.

Ckarasu Meowstic has 3 base point lower special attack but an arguably better typing, a far better speed (Trick Room still isn't really an excuse since that takes up a moveslot which Wigglytuff needs - WishTect, Trick Room Moonblast leaves it walled by Poison- and Steel-Type Pokemon. Furthermore, as I said some things in RU are just there because they are forgotten about. The giant wish passes can be done by Alomomola too though I guess.

 

[Ckarasu]

Ghost and Dragon are pretty rare in the lower tiers, and one typing isn't really going to change that. Arch actually made a good argument about the wish passes, I kinda forgot about that and that gives it a niche yeah, a pretty small one but definitely a better one than Competitive.

Ckarasu Meowstic has 3 base point lower special attack but an arguably better typing, a far better speed (Trick Room still isn't really an excuse since that takes up a moveslot which Wigglytuff needs - WishTect, Trick Room Moonblast leaves it walled by Poison- and Steel-Type Pokemon. Furthermore, as I said some things in RU are just there because they are forgotten about. The giant wish passes can be done by Alomomola too though I guess.

Psychic is, last I recall, a fairly meh typing. I could be wrong about that, though. Wigglytuff also benefits from having a decent amount of 100+ BP moves (Fire Blast, Blizzard, Focus Blast, Thunder). Does Meowstic have all of that(No)? It actually compounds on the comparison, as Wiggly actually outdamages it by a decent amount.Also, Trick Room can be set up by another pokemon, if need be.

Finally, RU has some good pokemon, But it also has a few stinkers, as well. Like Sandslash and Quilfish. Again, not really arguing for much on Wigglytuff's behalf here. It's not so unrealistic, but it really depends on what else gets kicked down there.

I think we should just agree to disagree, as this is really starting to take away from the topic a bit.

 

[Torty73]

I think the gen 1 bugs, butterfree and beedril, get +10bst sp atk and atk repetivly

 

[PenguinGengar]

Has anyone checked Electrode yet? Its speed and typing make it a pretty good Greninja counter, and resisting Thunder Wave makes it even better. +10 Sp. Atk. would be great.

 

[Baldafor]

Does Meowstic have all of that(No)? It actually compounds on the comparison, as Wiggly actually outdamages it by a decent amount.Also, Trick Room can be set up by another pokemon, if need be.

In the case of Wigglytuff, Trick Room would have to be set up by another pokemon because it doesn't learn it. It also doesn't get Moonblast, which is practically required to secure KO's in doubles since Dazzling Gleam is reduced by 25%. Perhaps if it had both of those, it could be potentially usable in doubles anyway.

 

[Thorhammer]

Has anyone checked Electrode yet? Its speed and typing make it a pretty good Greninja counter, and resisting Thunder Wave makes it even better. +10 Sp. Atk. would be great.

It's just really fast, nothing more, and speed isn't a big deal anymore. Its defenses are poor, as are its offenses, and its typing has no particular use against Greninja: it doesn't resist a single one of its common moves and the ninja has plenty of time to change type to not be weak to Electric by the time Electrode can attack. It's never going to be useful in OU.

 

[PenguinGengar]

It's just really fast, nothing more, and speed isn't a big deal anymore. Its defenses are poor, as are its offenses, and its typing has no particular use against Greninja: it doesn't resist a single one of its common moves and the ninja has plenty of time to change type to not be weak to Electric by the time Electrode can attack. It's never going to be useful in OU.

I just meant offensively--a STAB Thunderbolt that hits before Greninja can attack/Protean is pretty cool. That said, I think it could be a decent RU/UU Poké at least (it can take out other things besides Greninja, I guess) if it gets boosted.

 

[Ckarasu]

I just meant offensively--a STAB Thunderbolt that hits before Greninja can attack/Protean is pretty cool. That said, I think it could be a decent RU/UU Poké at least (it can take out other things besides Greninja, I guess) if it gets boosted.

How about that Protean Shadow Sneak? Sure makes bringing out Electrode against Greninja pointless......

 

[Thorhammer]

I just meant offensively--a STAB Thunderbolt that hits before Greninja can attack/Protean is pretty cool. That said, I think it could be a decent RU/UU Poké at least (it can take out other things besides Greninja, I guess) if it gets boosted.

If Electrode is trying to switch in on Greninja, it has to take an attack, which means Greninja has a chance to change its type and Electrode is probably dead.

Electrode was never RU in Gen 5, and the tier is only getting harsher now. 10 SpA won't reverse that.

 

[meowmixmax]

I don't have any concrete evidence for it, so this is all my personal experience but I think Lumineon's speed has been buffed from 91 to 101. My reasoning for this is one managed to out speed my max speed Salamence in the battle Maison without rain or a scarf. Has anyone else had a similar experience against Lumineon?

 

[GarchompPit]

Brace yourselves...
Offensive Clefables are coming...
Oh also Stountland in the sand will be even more of a threat and Scolipede just became a top tier threat with a buff on its attack stat and in combination with speed boost this thing is going to be unstoppable :P

 

[Sōusuke Aizen]

Stoutland atk got increase!! speedy and now a little more powerful!

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Brace yourselves...
Scolipede just became a top tier threat with a buff on its attack stat and in combination with speed boost this thing is going to be unstoppable :P

Quiz time!

What pokemon resists Megahorn 4x and gets priority on flying moves?

Yes, Rock Slide can be used on the switch, but Scole is hardly unstoppable.

 

[GarchompPit]

Quiz time!

What pokemon resists Megahorn 4x and gets priority on flying moves?

Yes, Rock Slide can be used on the switch, but Scole is hardly unstoppable.

No need to be a douchebag ( no offense man :) )...I am terribly sorry but Talonflame,Charizard and Moltres completely skipped my mind..Again sorry!

 

[farranpoison]

Quiz time!

What pokemon resists Megahorn 4x and gets priority on flying moves?

Yes, Rock Slide can be used on the switch, but Scole is hardly unstoppable.

I was gonna answer MegaPinsir but then I realized that it's only x2 resistant to Megahorn... >_>

Damn you Talonflame, ruining everything! (as I run one on my own team...)

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

No need to be a douchebag ( no offense man :) )...I am terribly sorry but Talonflame,Charizard and Moltres completely skipped my mind..Again sorry!

Yikes. Just having some fun, champ in the making.

 

[Magnemite]

Psychic is, last I recall, a fairly meh typing. I could be wrong about that, though. Wigglytuff also benefits from having a decent amount of 100+ BP moves (Fire Blast, Blizzard, Focus Blast, Thunder). Does Meowstic have all of that(No)? It actually compounds on the comparison, as Wiggly actually outdamages it by a decent amount.Also, Trick Room can be set up by another pokemon, if need be.

Finally, RU has some good pokemon, But it also has a few stinkers, as well. Like Sandslash and Quilfish. Again, not really arguing for much on Wigglytuff's behalf here. It's not so unrealistic, but it really depends on what else gets kicked down there.

I think we should just agree to disagree, as this is really starting to take away from the topic a bit.

I can tell you don't know too much about the lower tiers. Qwilfish is a great Pokemon in RU and UU. It's very close to the UU cutoff. In fact, if the 1850 stats were used for tiering, Qwilfish would be UU. Meowstic-F and Wigglytuff are nowhere near good enough to be RU, especially when the best Pokemon in the tier, Slowking, is a Psychic-type, so I don't see why anyone would prefer to use Meowstic over it. There will without a doubt be better to use Fairies in RU than Wigglytuff, such as possibly Slurpuff and Granbull, for example. Wiggly still has awful stats, and its Dragon immunity will be fairly useless as there is a grand total of ONE Dragon in RU (Druddigon). I doubt it will even see much usage in NU. Uxie and Mesprit far outclass it as a supporter in RU, with screens, SR, and most importantly, U-Turn, not to mention much better defenses. I just can't think of a single reason to use a teamslot on Wigglytuff when there are so many better Pokemon available. "Competitive" as an ability is a bit of a misnomer, because Wigglytuff certainly isn't a very useful competitive Pokemon.

 

[Ckarasu]

I can tell you don't know too much about the lower tiers. Qwilfish is a great Pokemon in RU and UU. It's very close to the UU cutoff. In fact, if the 1850 stats were used for tiering, Qwilfish would be UU. Meowstic-F and Wigglytuff are nowhere near good enough to be RU, especially when the best Pokemon in the tier, Slowking, is a Psychic-type, so I don't see why anyone would prefer to use Meowstic over it. There will without a doubt be better to use Fairies in RU than Wigglytuff, such as possibly Slurpuff and Granbull, for example. Wiggly still has awful stats, and its Dragon immunity will be fairly useless as there is a grand total of ONE Dragon in RU (Druddigon). I doubt it will even see much usage in NU. Uxie and Mesprit far outclass it as a supporter in RU, with screens, SR, and most importantly, U-Turn, not to mention much better defenses. I just can't think of a single reason to use a teamslot on Wigglytuff when there are so many better Pokemon available. "Competitive" as an ability is a bit of a misnomer, because Wigglytuff certainly isn't a very useful competitive Pokemon.

At +2, Wiggly hits very hard, but this is really only due to its moves rather than stats. Its bulk is rather average, as the HP and defenses just kind of cancel out. 85 Special Attack is a bit below average, but it is enough to benefit from a +2. Again, you seem to be underselling it(And I'm certainly not overselling it). Also, you never bothered mentioning Sandslash, who is rather pathetic(last I checked). Qwilfish is actually rather awful, the more I look at it. 65/75/55 is just not good in any respect. 95 Attack is decent, but 85 speed is just kind of slow. And intimidate just does not help deal with all of his issues. His moveset is OK, I suppose. There's a real reason it's not UU.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Qwilfish is actually rather awful, the more I look at it. 65/75/55 is just not good in any respect. 95 Attack is decent, but 85 speed is just kind of slow. And intimidate just does not help deal with all of his issues. His moveset is OK, I suppose. There's a real reason it's not UU.

Sorry, but I just had to respond to this and point out that this is completely false. Qwilfish is Top A Rank in the RU Viability Ranking thread for a reason. Qwilfish is arguably the best combination of a hazard setter and physically bulky pivot in all of RU. That 65/75/55 bulk is more like 65/137/55 after Intimidate, which lets it take hits about as well as a physically defensive Skarmory. Water/Poison typing is really solid as well since, combined with its great physical bulk (after Intimidate), it turns Qwilfish into a fantastic check/counter to RU threats like Durant, Entei, Emboar, and Escavalier. Besides being a great physical pivot, it can also set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, paralyze things with Thunder Wave, and stop many setup sweepers with Haze. It is far from awful.

Also, the reason it's not UU is because it doesn't get enough usage to be UU. That's literally it. Qwilfish is also A Rank in the UU Viability Ranking thread because it works just fine there as well. It does much of what it does in RU, just checking new threats like Heracross and Mienshao instead.

 

[Disposable Puppets]

I've had the weirdest experience when dealing with the Battle Maison. Twice now, I've had an Infernape outspeed my max speed Greninja. Trick room wasn't in play, I wasn't paralyzed, sticky web wasn't on the field and I know it wasn't holding a choice scarf because it used two different moves. Afterwards I confirmed that I did max out Greninjas speed evs so I don't know what it could be. Infernape's speed is only 108 so it would've have to have had almost a 20 point increase to be able to outspeed Greninja

As of right now, I don't have any evidence, but if it happens again I'll be sure to save the battle video

 

[Ckarasu]

Sorry, but I just had to respond to this and point out that this is completely false. Qwilfish is Top A Rank in the RU Viability Ranking thread for a reason. Qwilfish is arguably the best combination of a hazard setter and physically bulky pivot in all of RU. That 65/75/55 bulk is more like 65/137/55 after Intimidate, which lets it take hits about as well as a physically defensive Skarmory. Water/Poison typing is really solid as well since, combined with its great physical bulk (after Intimidate), it turns Qwilfish into a fantastic check/counter to RU threats like Durant, Entei, Emboar, and Escavalier. Besides being a great physical pivot, it can also set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, paralyze things with Thunder Wave, and stop many setup sweepers with Haze. It is far from awful.

Also, the reason it's not UU is because it doesn't get enough usage to be UU. That's literally it. Qwilfish is also A Rank in the UU Viability Ranking thread because it works just fine there as well. It does much of what it does in RU, just checking new threats like Heracross and Mienshao instead.

My main concern is that decently bulky pokemon can just Taunt it and ruin its hazard setting opportunities. It is slow, and its offenses still aren't that great in all honesty. Anything with even a passable special attack stat will wreck it, as well. It has quite a few issues.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

My main concern is that decently bulky pokemon can just Taunt it and ruin its hazard setting opportunities. It is slow, and its offenses still aren't that great in all honesty. Anything with even a passable special attack stat will wreck it, as well. It has quite a few issues.

You just described Forretress and Skarmory perfectly, but I don't think you'd disagree that they were perfectly viable in OU. The trick is to not leave it in on something that will Taunt it and not try to bring it in on powerful special or mixed attackers. If you stick to what it's actually good at (switching into and setting up hazards all over some of the biggest physical threats in the RU metagame), Qwilfish does its job very well.

 

[xlxlxlxl]

I've had the weirdest experience when dealing with the Battle Maison. Twice now, I've had an Infernape outspeed my max speed Greninja. Trick room wasn't in play, I wasn't paralyzed, sticky web wasn't on the field and I know it wasn't holding a choice scarf because it used two different moves. Afterwards I confirmed that I did max out Greninjas speed evs so I don't know what it could be. Infernape's speed is only 108 so it would've have to have had almost a 20 point increase to be able to outspeed Greninja

As of right now, I don't have any evidence, but if it happens again I'll be sure to save the battle video

Do you run a +speed nature on your Greninja? +Speed Infernape outspeeds neutral Greninja by 3 points.