Resource USM LC Viability Rankings (VR Update @ #249)

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B --> B-
Veil teams aren't in a really good moment right now tbh,they suffer a lot with Pony being used a lot and alola Pix tie'ing with Onix/Foo which can destroy it as a lead,nothing much to say here tbh
I disagree : I think Vulpix-alola is underrated, surely veil aren't as effective as before but i feel like there is a lack of resist to alola vulpix and overall ice spam in many teams. Even ponyta isn't a great answer to vulpix with rocks. Many teams have difficulties handling scarf vulpix/amaura. Moreover it can use veil as a last shot to provide an opportunity for a set up. Sure it is defensively very weak, but offensively it does deal a lot of trouble to many unprepared team. And it isn't dead in a mach punch or vacuum wave like amaura. Vulpix also gets freeze dry leaving few switches that aren't 2hko'd. Scarf vulpix is a kind of glass cannon, but it works great in general.

Examples :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-697470504 why ponyta is not a good counter to scarf vulpix
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-701689692 this is not vulpix but shows the strength of ice spam
 

SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
Get where you're coming from. However, your more recent quote says, "And yes, technician fake out + feint is decent, but that's why it's listed in the viability rankings due to not being exactly 100% outclassed by aipom."

We don't have Aipom anymore. Let's be honest, most mons in C merit almost 0 placement on higher ladder teams. Yet, many high ladder players play with & abuse Meowth. It's movepool is small, with many options. Didn't even mention running a full on atk set with Seed Bomb > WP.

I honestly think it merits B rank. It's one of the few normal types that is usable, which may not seem like so much of a niche, until you realize how unresisted normal mons are. The only good ghost types are Gastly, which is just a revenge killer anyway, and pump,which has gone wayyyy down with the rise of bird spam.

Rock, only common is Onix (you could make an Archen argument, but this isn't gen 6). Meowth. Beats. Onix.

Steel is an issue. As it is for most of the tier. Welcome to people bring fighting types.

With that said, Meowth does an insane amount of damage. It has set variability. It is one of the best revenge killers in the tier. It's a glass cannon, but welcome to LC. And it doesnt care about hazards, or really even webs. It's going to die anyway, and it's best part is its priority. It's ridiculously splashable.

I will continue to argue for it's inclusion in B tier. It is honestly a gamechanger.
 

SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
Also would like to argue to Water mons weak to knock off.

Frillish B>B-/C+: I'm actually a Frillish user, and I have been since gen 5. Big fan of it. Very Bulky, and can surprise with the ScarfSpout. With that said, there are just too many knock off users, which cripples it, and does a ton of damage. Without its scarf especially, ScarfSpout is useless. I do love the mon. Ghost types just suffer so much in this meta, which is sad.

Slowpoke B+>B-/C+: I don't know where the Slowpoke fever started, ngl. Yes it has Regenerator. It's literally a TR mon, though. Weak to both Volt Switch and U-Turn, AS WELL as Knock Off. Literally the 3 most centralizing moves in the meta! And it's too slow to defend itself. This, really, should be C. It's a really hard niche and requires a ton of support. I'd be scared to give it an item.

I will say I have never used Slowpoke, and unless something drastically changes, I dont plan on it. I use every regen mon but it. But I really, really, really, fail to see how it's become good. It's gotten nothing, but it's suddenly just rose up the ranks? Please.
 

Merritt

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Slowpoke B+>B-/C+:
I will say I have never used Slowpoke, and unless something drastically changes, I dont plan on it. I use every regen mon but it. But I really, really, really, fail to see how it's become good. It's gotten nothing, but it's suddenly just rose up the ranks? Please.
So Slowpoke is what's called "poor on paper, good in practice". It's the inverse of the far more common "broken on paper, not in practice" that you see all the time around suspects. I'm not personally a fan of using Slowpoke, it doesn't match the playstyle I like, but I've used it a few times and played against it far more and Slowpoke is legitimately good. I could maybe see a drop to B (even that's kind of iffy tbh) but going down to C+ or even B- is absurd.

Meanwhile you also make a statement that "I'd be scared to give it an item" which seems utterly bizarre. Yes, Slowpoke is weak to Knock Off, but there's virtually never a downside to holding Eviolite (the increased defenses mean you take almost exactly the same damage from a boosted Knock Off as you do from an itemless one). I can't really see any matchup that is improved by not holding Eviolite - maybe Covet Spritzee at a huge stretch?

If it wasn't clear somehow, I can't in good faith agree with this nomination. Don't care about Frillish one way or the other, and Meowth is always either over or underhyped - personally I think it can maybe fit into B- but higher than that I'd need heavy convincing on.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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move mareanie up, good pokemon
Want to echo this by giving my own opinion. Mareanie, though it is almost 100% of the time a momentum sinker, it's a decent check to Fighting-types and a very reliable one against Fairy-types. It has Regenerator + Recover, useful utility options such as Knock Off and Toxic Spikes, and a good defensive typing. What it makes it special is it ability to counter Torchic and the incoming Baton Pass container (unless it's Diglett or a Pokémon which can stand it, then it doesn't work) thanks to Haze, which it may seem like a niche, but actually if well pulled out, puts work on. Ground-types make its existance hard, but I think it should be recognised. Therefore, I agree with tahu, at least A- is where it should move up.
 

jake

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Slowpoke B+>B-/C+: I don't know where the Slowpoke fever started, ngl. Yes it has Regenerator. It's literally a TR mon, though. Weak to both Volt Switch and U-Turn, AS WELL as Knock Off. Literally the 3 most centralizing moves in the meta! And it's too slow to defend itself. This, really, should be C. It's a really hard niche and requires a ton of support. I'd be scared to give it an item.

I will say I have never used Slowpoke, and unless something drastically changes, I dont plan on it. I use every regen mon but it. But I really, really, really, fail to see how it's become good. It's gotten nothing, but it's suddenly just rose up the ranks? Please.
dense body (Slowpoke) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 116 SpA / 116 SpD / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Slack Off

it's pretty good, though you should always consider creeping with it to catch foong and ferroseed. it tanks basically everything and 2hkos a buttload of stuff back (everything short of vullaby, basically). it's a pretty good pick in this meta because it does check fights, despite the uturn and knock weakness, and it does well against snivy/pawn/rocks balances that are reasonably popular. catching a weakened snivy/pawn with a fire blast is pretty rad. it's surely not the best pokemon but it's absolutely a solid pick in the meta. no way should it drop to c

here's the team i used it on and here's a replay
 

Corporal Levi

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Just a few comments as I think the rankings are in a pretty good state right now. Actually, C and C- are pretty bad, but that's pretty much just a glorified list of everybody's favourite nichemons so I'd rather not touch it with a ten foot pole. Good luck, Merritt.



Croagunk: A -> A-


Croagunk is one of those Pokemon that really thrives on being unprepared for, because as a standalone threat, it's exceptionally easy to build and play around. Croagunk has been up and down before; it was very popular during post-Misdreavus XY and early ORAS until Gothita/Acrofoo gained popularity, and was again bordering mid A around SPL 7 until offensive Vullaby/Flame Charge Ponyta started taking off. In the current metagame, Croagunk doesn't do a very good job at checking what it's supposed to. High Jump Kick does a good chunk if Mienfoo isn't carrying Acrobatics, Timburr sometimes forgoes Ice Punch for Fire Punch, Spritzee is carrying Psychic more often, Staryu runs Psychic more often than not, Snivy straight up muscles through Berry Juice Croagunk, and Grimer-Alola isn't as popular as before. Water spam is the only major archetype that Croagunk can check consistently, but it hasn't seen as much use at all this gen.

Of course, some (though not all) of those trends were already present in SM; the biggest hit to Croagunk's viability is that its own checks are so much more popular. A large part of Croagunk's power stemmed from its Nasty Plot set, which allowed Croagunk to act as a significant offensive threat that many teams left unaccounted for, especially if Fighting-types were lumped together while building. Nowadays, Vullaby, Onix, and Diglett are as huge as ever, while Wingull, Ponyta, and Mudbray are also large threats. Mareanie and Slowpoke, which can almost completely shut Croagunk down, are on the rise. With so many prominent checks on so many teams, NP Croagunk simply can't claim to be a large threat, forcing it to fall back on its status as a glue Pokemon to warrant a team slot to a much greater extent than before. And since it's only really solid enough to act as a secondary check to various threats, you would need multiple holes filled to justify Croagunk over a more threatening Pokemon. Croagunk will probably never drop below B+ in a metagame similar to ours just because at the end of the day, being able to check such a precise list of top threats is extremely valuable. But Pokemon in mid A tend to be consistently useful and/or threatening, able to pull their weight in almost every game, and between frequently not being able to do its job and not being able to do much else, Croagunk isn't the best choice for enough teams to warrant remaining in the subtier.

And yes, Diglett being indisputably top tier certainly hinders Croagunk's viability.



Mareanie: B+ -> A-/A


Foongus and Mareanie offer so much role compression in this metagame that I'm finding myself including one of the two on almost every team, and it doesn't look like I'm alone on this. Foongus may be more splashable overall because it doesn't stack a Diglett weakness and Spore is sort of busted, but Foongus's popularity also means that it's that much more prepared for. But the coverage moves for Foongus can't touch Mareanie Against teams without Diglett, Mareanie is almost always a godsend - a hard check to some of the biggest threats in the metagame that just doesn't die, coming in on Fighting-types, Torchic, most Spritzee variants, and some Pawniard variants over and over with little to no repercussion. Special emphasis on the lack of repercussion - several of the most prominents threats in the metagame aren't just checked by Mareanie, they're hard walled. Without Diglett, they have almost no hope of outlasting Mareanie's combination of Regenerator and Recover, turning into non-threats for the rest of the match outside of shifting momentum here and there. Mareanie is still quite passive once it's in play, but it's by no means ignorable - it can easily spread status with Sludge Bomb and Scald, and its newfound access to Knock Off doesn't hurt either.

Now, against teams with Diglett, Mareanie has to be a lot more careful - in addition to not being able to safely come in on Mienfoo anymore, it has to be wary of double switches against everything else. However, it's still not a dead weight since Diglett doesn't want to directly switch in, so coming in on things without VoltTurn is still an option since doubles are risky for the Diglett user too; it also acts as a safety net against a good number of sweepers. But really, its enormous presence against non-Diglett teams alone makes Mareanie worth it on so many teams that need the role compression and can pressure Diglett well; a significantly poorer matchup against a single common Pokemon is definitely a concern, but doesn't detract from Mareanie's strengths enough to prevent it from easily competing with the Pokemon in mid A in terms of splashability. If Mareanie rises in popularity enough for the things it checks to run coverage moves for it, then chances are Foongus will eclipse it and Mareanie will drop back down, but for the time being, Diglett is the only reason it isn't completely ridiculous.



Magnemite: B+ -> A-


Chinchou being on the decline is huge here. The net number of Volt Switch absorbers hasn't decreased at all, of course - Diglett and Onix are everywhere, and Mudbray is quite good as well - but none of them take Flash Cannon quite as well as Chinchou does. This makes switching into Magnemite directly quite risky and has aided the SturdyJuice set in particular, which can beat Berry Juice Mudbray / Onix if they come in on the Flash Cannon, and is tougher for Diglett to revenge-kill. Its niche as one of the more encompassing safety nets is quite valuable in a metagame that favours role compression, and it benefits from Foongus often running Synthesis, allowing Magnemite to hard wall it. It's particularly good on VoltTurn, which I feel is possibly the single strongest team type right now, acting as a slowish Volt Switch into Diglett or another VoltTurner, as well as a safety net for a lot of threats that could otherwise be quite annoying to the team, such as Shellder and birds.

ScarfMag doesn't benefit quite as much from Chinchou being less common since it always had more counterplay, and is still as annoyed by the other Volt Switch absorbers as ever, to the point where I'm not sure if it's outright more viable than SturdyJuice Magnemite anymore like it was in the past. Of course, it still has all the strengths that made it a top set back in ORAS; it's possibly the single most immediately threatening pivot out there with its Analytic boosted attacks, able to get a KO almost every time it comes in if it predicts correctly (and looking silly if it doesn't), turning it into a very high risk, high reward choice. It also works well on VoltTurn for its numerous resistances to get into play with.

Both sets are fairly splashable on general offense and offer a great deal for VoltTurn in particular, while also usually being able to play a large role in any given game. Magnemite may not be as consistently effective as most of the things in mid A, but it's far easier to include on a team than the Pokemon in B+; I think it would be a good fit in A-.


Cranidos: B- -> C+/C


First off, Choice Scarf / Eviolite support Cranidos variants that were seen in ORAS aren't very good. They were used to role compress Fletchling Pursuiting and Stealth Rock while still saving Pawniard for something else, but Fletchling no longer exists; Cranidos doesn't have the bulk to reliably check Doduo, loses to Wingull's Scald, and doesn't threaten Vullaby at all with Pursuit. With Fighting-types and Onix as common as they are, Cranidos has to predict perfectly to be able to threaten the opposing team, and even then, it's rarely able to OHKO an Eviolite-holding Pokemon and is easily forced out afterwards; in conjunction with its lack of opportunities to come into play, it's a high risk, low reward Pokemon that flat out isn't worth using. Speaking of Onix, it's a far better bird check since Pursuit isn't too useful on Cranidos.

The Life Orb set is still a decent webs abuser, but there are a few issues with this. Webs isn't nearly as good as it once was, so this isn't a particularly important niche to begin with. Furthermore, Cranidos faces a great deal of competition as a webs abuser - its vulnerability to common priority moves and the fact that it ties with many of the most important Choice Scarf users means that it's forced out far more easily than a webs sweeper should be, especially when you consider how webs teams tend not to have solid switch-ins for key threats, so it isn't consistent enough to be worth building the webs team around. It also lacks priority or a good speed tier, meaning it offers nothing for the biggest threats to webs in Snivy, Wingull, and Gastly, relegating it purely to being a dedicated abuser when it's not even a top choice for that. Cranidos's main advantage over other webs abusers is that it has the bulk to not be instantly revenge-killed by non-Wingull birds; however, this rather specific, and even if such an abuser is needed, Cranidos may not be the optimal choice, with plenty of other candidates that fit the bill and may offer something else on top of it. The fact that Cranidos has no relevant niche whatsoever puts it well below the Pokemon in B-, which are uncommon but potentially genuinely the best choice for certain teams, and even the Pokemon in C+, whose niches are extremely small but still noteworthy.


Snover: B- -> C+


Snover isn't quite as bad as Cranidos, as its unique typing and high base power STABs certainly allow it to be a fine choice on a few teams here and there, but its terrible stats hinder it from being consistently effective; for example, the standard Choice Scarf set loses to Foongus 1v1, with or without rocks. If you're looking to take advantage of a lack of Ice resists on most teams and nothing else, Amaura is generally the better choice, as it actually has the power to reliably 2HKO most Pokemon that are hit neutrally. Amaura is also the better Hail setter overall as it can also set rocks, although I'm not sure if this is relevant enough to be worth considering. When it comes to both roles, Snover can still distinguish itself by being able to take on Water-types in particular, as well as having access to (weak) priority, so it still has its niche; it's just much, much smaller and more specific than the niche of Cottonee or Salandit, which I would say are close to the middle of B-, and more in line with C+ Pokemon like Clamperl or Pumpkaboo-small in terms of how many teams genuinely have Snover as the best choice for the team.



Bulbasaur: C+ -> C


Bulbasaur is an acceptably viable Pokemon with an acceptable set of strengths that simply isn't able to find a place on a competitive team. The Celebrate set suffers from 4mss, only gets a single shot at sweeping, and generally lacks the power to break through a large portion of the metagame, making it difficult to justify building around; it's a fun set to use, and plenty of other mid C Pokemon are too, but there are far more reliable and threatening options available. You could use Bulbasaur to patch up holes with its decent typing, but access to Knock Off is nowhere near enough for Eviolite Bulbasaur to find a place on a team over Foongus, and z-Celebrate sets lack the initial bulk to check things well. Some Pokemon have a low ranking because they flat out aren't good, but Bulbasaur isn't one of them, so dropping it all the way to C- might be a bit much; it's just that other Pokemon are even better, more often.


Buneary: C+ -> C-


Why was this Pokemon ranked so high to begin with? It was never good to begin with, and as far as I know, nobody thinks otherwise. Z-Splash will never, ever sweep in a scenario where pretty much any decent sweeper couldn't, and non-Z sets are non-threats relative to any decent offensive Pokemon, with poor Buneary's poor offensive stats, lack of Knock Off, and lack of coverage on its STAB move. I'd never thought I'd say "just use Meowth", but if you're seriously considering Buneary for its offensive merits because it barely 2HKOes Timburr with LO Return, then here we are. On top of offering almost nothing from an offensive perspective, Buneary offers absolutely nothing from a defensive one. It does have one unique thing going for it: a fast Healing Wish. This isn't at all noteworthy, because Memento will usually do the trick, and there are Memento users (possibly with Z) that are better than Buneary in every other way.


Also, I disagree with the following:

Disagree - Torchic: A+ -> S-
Torchic may be on the verge of being banned, but if it does leave (which I'm not against), it likely won't be because Torchic is flat out broken. Strictly in terms of viability, Torchic isn't on the level of the S ranks. It's less splashable than everything in S, A+, and even some of A: it 1) has extremely defined weaknesses, which makes support like hazard removal and strong Water resistances mandatory; 2) opens up extremely defined holes in your team that need to be patched up, as numerous Pokemon are able to come in on the revenge-kill or Protect and punish Torchic heavily; and 3) acts as a reliable answer to literally nothing in the game due to its frailty and lack of immunities, meaning from a defensive standpoint, your team is one Pokemon down in being able to check major threats. Furthermore, while its strengths are certainly up there, they aren't the type where you can just throw Torchic on any team and expect it to succeed. Torchic needs a great deal of support to really shine, to the point where you'll want the entire team built around Torchic, as if you don't have the right Baton Pass recipient, you'll be stuck with a fast Pokemon with terrible coverage, which isn't worth it at all when you consider how much support Torchic needs to get into play in the first place.

And then there's the fact that Torchic-centric teams don't actually win more than other top strategies because they're quite unreliable in comparison - Torchic forces a ton of 50/50s between guessing the set, guessing Protect, and guessing the recipient, which are just as likely to go poorly for the Torchic user (outside of guessing the set, possibly) as they are for the opponent. Whether the sort of games Torchic creates are what we want is a different story, but in terms of sheer viability, Torchic fits the criteria for an S rank in neither splashability nor consistency.


Disagree - Snivy: A+ -> S-
I can see where this nomination is coming from. Snivy is arguably qualified when it comes to splashability; I would say that it ranks on par with Abra / Timburr / Pawniard, but below the S ranks / Staryu / Foongus / Onix. That being said, I feel that there is a difference in how consistently Snivy is able to pull its weight compared to the S ranks and Foongus, who I feel is bordering S- as well. The only common reason Mienfoo / Vullaby / Staryu / Timburr / Foongus would do nothing in a matchup is by getting hit by a crazy z-lure set early on; and by nature, Diglett / Abra will always have the potential to hinder the opponent in a significant way regardless of matchup, with exceptions arising from mispredictions or misplays rather than team composition. On the other hand, while it's quite rare, Snivy can become a non-threat against extremely offensive teams centered around sweepers that handle Snivy well, such as certain variants of birdspam and firespam; it also does very little against teams that simply pack enough Snivy checks and not enough Snivy-weak Pokemon. Of course, Snivy is very much worth including on teams because it'll at least be able to hold its own in most matchups, and as a sweeper, there will be some matchups where it absolutely dominates, but I feel that the fact that it can falter to such an extent against relevant archetypes is enough to exclude it from S.


Disagree - Slowpoke: B+ -> B
I imagine this nomination will have more merit once Torchic gets banned, but for now, I'd honestly say Slowpoke would do well in A-. Thanks to Regenerator, it's bar none the most resilient and reliable Torchic check in the metagame, and the closest you'll get to a hard stop to Torchic; it also has Thunder Wave and a good offensive movepool to ensure that Torchic's recipients don't come in for free. Its closest competition, Mareanie, risks being trapped by Diglett or Trapinch if Torchic predicts correctly. Slowpoke does struggle against Pursuit trappers somewhat, but it has the raw bulk to survive any Pursuit if it's healthy, especially if Scald burns as they come in, and threatens Pawniard in particular with Fire Blast. Torchic isn't the only Pokemon that Slowpoke checks - its huge bulk lets it avoid the OHKO from almost anything, allowing it to soft check a huge variety of offensive Pokemon that aren't Dark-type / Snivy / Spritzee, allowing for decent role compression. Slowpoke's downsides are as heavy as they have always been, but it has a very defined niche that is needed often enough to place Slowpoke in at least B+.


Ambivalent toward Houndour/Vulpix-alola dropping, but I'm not too fond of the reasoning presented for Houndour. It doesn't really compete with Torchic as Fire-type attacks aren't its only niche - just as important are STAB Pursuit, strong priority, and, well, checking Torchic. Pawniard and Ponyta are a bit more comparable, but Houndour remains different enough from them for teams that genuinely appreciate Houndour to not do well with having the slot replaced with Ponyta/Pawniard. That being said, Houndour just isn't very good right now, so I could see it dropping for that.


Re: Meowth
Get where you're coming from. However, your more recent quote says, "And yes, technician fake out + feint is decent, but that's why it's listed in the viability rankings due to not being exactly 100% outclassed by aipom."
This quote was taken out of context - several of the posts Gummy linked (Sken's included) simply go into why Meowth isn't a good Pokemon on its own. Meowth was never directly outclassed by Aipom, which is why it had a niche; the idea is that its niche simply isn't very noteworthy to begin with.

Now, a fair warning - many a great ladder hero has fallen in an attempt to defend Meowth's virtues here on the Viability Ranking. If, after reading through the relevant anti-Meowth posts that Gummy linked, you truly believe that you have something to bring to the table on the Meowth discussion, then I encourage you to first share your thoughts with a known anti-Meowth user and weed out the more obvious counterarguments before posting here.
 
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infability rankings mark 1.1: The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God

u know what people like? stupid long posts, because if u make ur post long enough, no one will bother spending enough time to argue with u.

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spritzee: a --> a+


seriously spritzee is so good right now. yeah there's foong and pawn and gast but once you get those out of the way cm spritz just wins vs a lot of teams, even after it gets knocked.

spritz works as a check to abra, fights, and birds, though it is often a little passive. i think to use it best you basically have to decide if you want to win with cm lategame or use it as a pivot midgame. yeah, it gives a lot of stuff free switchins, but it also gets free switchins on a lot of stuff, and the process of eliminating its checks is pretty simple. spritz pairs great with dig and some pivots or as part of a defensive core with something like ferro or marinara.

spritz can also run a few neat tech sets like np, which is more of a breaker than a late game cleaner like cm, and tr, which is actually dope right now with all the speedy shit running around; np tr is obviously an option too. you can also run the standard spread as a pivot with covet or psychic over cm, which either let you reclaim your evio or fuck up poisons on the switchin.

obviously spritz has its limitations, but it's super splashable. i find myself putting a spritz on so many teams, because its niche is just so nice. you get a bird check, a fight check, and a wincon all bundled up into one. unlike a lot of role compression mons, spritzee can do all of these, in the same game, though it means you'll end up clicking wish pretty often, that's fine for a more balanced squad.

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staryu: s- --> a+


star isn't seeing much usage lately, and it's pretty clear why. star was useful because it offered role compression, but like a lot of role compression mons, it doesn't really execute any of its roles very well. you want staryu as a bulky water, a rapid spinner, and a fastmon, but it doesn't really do any of those well. it's not very bulky, especially because you want your spinners to be bulky enough to switch into attacks, and it doesn't have much offensive presence.

hydro psychic is nice coverage but with the standard spread it doesn't really threaten much. it's also really easy to chip, because even though you have recover it's very hard to find a turn to use it. it has the same problem with using spin. it definitely doesn't help that hydro psychic just lets snivy in for free, and snivy is one of the very worst pokemon to give a free turn.

if you're going to use staryu, the best set right now is evio 4 attacks. especially with analytic boosts, this is very hard to switch into and you have great coverage for the metagame.

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mareanie: b+ --> a or a-


levi talked about this above and pointed out most of this mons good points. the regenerator poisons are really great in this meta, especially because marinara now has knock.

obviously getting trapped by diggy isn't great, and that's why foongus is a little better, but marinara makes up for that drawback with a couple advantages over foon. first, it's not nearly as scared of birds, which is really nice for some teams, especially those that also use foo. second, it can check chic, which is a really centralizing mon right now (not gonna go into if it's broken), instead of inviting it in like foon does once something's spored. third, and really important imo, is that you have tspikes, which are really nice in the current meta.

tspikes are really good right now because so much stuff is weak to them. take the classic balance build of vulla/foong/onix/foo/2 fillers. yeah, you're only hitting 4 mons with tspikes at best, and foong can get rid of them, but snagging a poison on just something like foo, pony, onix, etc. is really nice. they are terrific chip and help you get a bunch of kos with offensive mons. tspikes also chip snivy, which is cute because even if they defog they're still taking a bunch of chip which helps you pick it off.

on the topic of tspikes, there's two things i want to mention. first of all, and this applies to all tiers but especially little cup, you almost always want 1 layer, not 2. it takes 4 turns for toxic to total more damage than regular poison, and in a very pivot based, momentum centric meta like lc, that's just not happening often. second, just because your opponent has a poison on their team doesn't mean you can't set up tspikes. if you do, that puts more pressure on them to either let something get poisoned or switch into their poison, so they place pressure on the opponent in a really unique way.

mareanie also just beats so many things right now, like levi said, and even though you have to play carefully vs diglett, diglett also has to play carefully vs you, because it doesn't want to switch into scald. if you have mareanie, you most definitely need a secondary foo check, because you can't switch in on it against diggy teams, but there's plenty of foo checks right now.

good partners for mareanie are willohex gastly, other regen mons, and grounds to beat opposing poisons. you probably also want stuff to beat diglett. mareanie is one of the most splashable mons in the current meta, and if you aren't using it, you're missing out.

support all levi's other noms, they gucci.

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mudbray: a --> a-


mudbray is a nice pokemon in theory, but it gives snivy and waters monogrammed invitations to switch in, and that is very ungood. sure, it's nice having great defense, but it's also really easy to chip if you have something to force it out. stealth rock were a neat buff but it only rose because of new toy syndrome. it's not good, basically any set you want to use feels like there's a better option that does the same stuff. it's nice if you want a rocker that sorta checks birds and has better offensive presence than onix, but the loss in speed is really significant.

1520040815709.png

slowpoke: b+ --> a-


sorry scheff, but poke is really good right now. it looks like it would kinda play similarly to marinara, but they actually function very differently. poke can lure grasses, for one, and being knock weak isn't a huge deal cause you've got a ton of defense and great typing anyway. twave is also a really nice, click-vs-anything option. poke isn't really a foo check, but it blanket checks a bunch of stuff and serves as a really nice in-between pivot. poke also doesn't get trapped by diggy like marinara does.

my dude merritt said most of what needed to be said, and i just want to reiterate what he said about poke being way better in practice than on paper. that's a pretty rare occurrence in mons, so i can see why you wouldn't expect it, but once you try it out on a nice simple balance squad of the dundies variety you'll get it.

finally:

1520040830663.png

crabrawler: unranked (???) --> c


the crab is a neat little mon, sure it's mostly outclassed by other fighters, but it can work really well as a fighting-type breaker. bulk up with z psychium zen headbutt beats basically every non-fairy fight check, and it's got a great speed tier. crab is definitely not a great mon, probably not even a good mon, but it definitely has a niche and i think that should be noted. that said, the lower ranks are a mess right now and i can see why nobody wants to touch them, so i get it if this doesn't get ranked.

peace yo, hope yall hear the wisdom. praise to big g, the original original gangster, the realest nigga of em all!
 
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SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
u know what people like? stupid long posts, because if u make ur post long enough, no one will bother spending enough time to argue with u.
disgusting

I'm willing to try poke, ergo, I'll drop my nom. A lot of LC players that I respect (and obviously, one that I've been managed by) swear by it. Regen is amazing. I'll talk about the other noms.

Maraenie > Anywhere in the A place. This mon has 14/14 defs W/O evio. Regen core. Amazing synergy with some of the other Regeners in the tier (altho, notably, not slowpoke). Agree, heavily.

Sprit > A+. I'd lean yes, but just a lean. Learning Psychic helps it lure in poisons that would otherwise flush it out. Steel types aren't as big as they should be in LC, other than ferro. O Sprit, however, can even run HP fire. Obviously, we all know about D Sprit, which is pretty amazing. But Sprit isn't as predictable anymore, ergo, Lean Yes.

Bray > A-. Heavily agree with everything inf said. It was supposed to outclass onix, yet, Onix just can't be outdone. I was an Onix hater at first, but Mudbray just. UGH. I want it to be good so badly, but it just doesn't perform.

Staryu > A. Agree, if only because I think it should have been there from the start. Role compression is something you have to do, but Staryu just has too many roles. With new defoggers, and spinning being less common, Staryu isn't anymore the #1 hazard mon. Snivy has more firepower, and a more reliable move. Staryu still has speed, but it's bulk is mediocre.

Crabrawler > C. Allstar had a rage because he almost lost to it. Most of my good battle experience comes from laddering with Allstar. It played really well. Ergo, agree.
 

Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
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(Sorry dew love ya)
B- -> C+
Well to start out,dew had the same thing that happened with bray: New toy syndrome(not gonna lie that I had the feeling that rocks would be a huge addition to it but it wasn't that much)
continuing,Dew has the same typing as skit when talking about webs,while webs is indeed an more offensive and dew isn't a very "hit hard mon" while Skit can spread fast scald burns and maybe use haze on opposing mons,dew suffers touch some mons bc of it's speed tier,it can't also really shut most of defoggers or spinners such as vulla,staryu,wingull,Snivy(if it isn't using bug move) and some more other less important ones such as tenta,kabuto,etc
Not gonna drop it lower bc it is indeed better than spinarak tbh,but B- seems not fitting for it at the moment
 
gotta disagree, dewpider hits super hard, especially cause you can run max atk/spatk and still hit 21/14/14 defenses. sure, it basically only hits hard when you're clicking water moves, but once you knock foo:

196+ Atk Water Bubble Dewpider Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
196+ SpA Water Bubble Dewpider Scald vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)

that's a dead weasel!

most teams nowadays carry one of foong/snivy/marinara/ferro for their water resist, all of which are passive af, and the only other major threats to dewp are birds and onix, neither of which likes switching in on water bubble scalds or liquidations (surf also nets a few extra koes if ur feeling wild). 16 spdef weak armor vully, which people are running to check snivy, falls over to scald:

196+ SpA Water Bubble Dewpider Scald vs. 0 HP / 156+ SpD Vullaby: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

i remember dcae talking about this early in usum, and he's right: dewpider has a totally different niche from surskit. skit is a mon that sets webs fast and reliably. dewp is a mon you use for offensive presence and decent bulk and it also has the option to set webs. dewp shouldn't be on dedicated webs teams, because in those circumstances it's outclassed by skit, but when you appreciate a fight and fire resist that does a lot of damage and a webs option as another type of speed control for your team, dewpider is the pick.

tl;dr: if ur using dewpider just to set webs ur using it wrong.
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
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while I agree with everything else infamy I'm gonna have to disagree with the spritzee nomination. I just do not think fairy-typing is that great in this meta, with an abundance of steels / poisons / fires to check spritzee. it struggles right now against threats like ponyta and torchic, as well as traditional checks like pawniard / magnemite / ferroseed / foongus / grimer, all common enough to pressure it immensely. i think that a neutral is a perfect tier for it, with its mixture of defensive and offensive sets. in close to 200-300 games on the ladder i have yet to ever lose to a calm mind spritzee sweep, as its just easy to prepare against. even mons that its supposed to check like foo just knock its item off then uturn out into something like mareanie to deal with it, and i think the influx of phazers / hazers like mareanie / onix can limit its ability to actually sweep, and thats a whole slew of mons that spritzee just cant deal with.

ive tried myself to make np spritzee work and it works ok but has massive troubles dealing with steels. its awkward speed tier leads trick room sets in a weird position where it outspeeds a lot of mons but also notably is undersped by foongus and grimer unless you specifically dont build speed on it, and otr isn't reliable enough imo to start running traditional trick room evs. its often just too slow to sweep and only really does well against super passive pokemon that dont deal super effective damage like slowpoke. on offensive teams it often struggles to actually get a sweep going because of voltturn momentum and knock off support, leading to it being worn down and 2hkoed as long as you arent too passive (which is a death sentence in this metagame).

i think that it definitely needs seperation from snubbull, as its better than snubbull by a good degree. covet sets basically fill the niche that thief snubbull has only it does it better because spritzee actually has its own recovery. as a result, i propose keeping spritzee at a neutral but knocking snubbull to b+. imo snubbull suffers from all the same issues that i mentioned spritzee doing only its so much easier to actually bait in and trap with groundium diglett. both only technically check timburr (or scraggy i guess) and neither really do well against mienfoo except as something you can always switch in to, but you just get knocked then turned on so really whats the point? imo poisons are a far better fighting check than solo fairies which sounds a little counterintuitive i guess due to digletts prescence but really in practice it plays out far better as seen by mareanie.
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
nah, snubs is still really good imo. intimidate is so useful as a blanket check for a lot of things. sure, it can't singlehandedly beat a lot of things, but if you have one alive and somewhat healthy you're never getting swept by stuff like shellder. i really don't see how snubs "doesn't check" mienfoo, because forcing it to turn out doesn't seem half bad when you have a mon with stuff like twave and thief. besides, we can't forget how snubs is basically one of the best vulla checks now that nobody runs NP anymore. i'd readily put snubs on my team when it checks some of the biggest threats in the meta (vulla, fights), and can even carry fpunch to deal with ferro, or eq for poison-types, something spritz can't do. sure despite that spritzee is overall better, that's why snubs is in the rank below it. snubs is leagues better than the stuff in B+. i don't think it should be moving out of A- anytime soon.
 

Fiend

someguy
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LC Leader
I think the issue with Snubbull is it falls into the catagory that Chinchou does, as it really sucks at actually continually being an good check against what is is suppose to check. Granted, Snubbull is a lot harder to manage, and it still hard answers Timburr. It has more general utility at the expense of momentum as well, and it actually does okay damage so this comparison seems rather weird. However, the point is that both Pokemon thrive on teams which do not rely on them and instead use their posatives as redundancy which aids the choosen offensive pressure, and their consistency almost exlcusively relies on finding themselves on these teams.

For instance, Chinchou + Onix gives you a fairly solid matchup against Flying-types and Fire-types and a good amount of significany utility. Further, Chinchou has Volt Switch which it will tend to get off versus Grasses (or Mienfoo since it pivots 80% of the game, s/o totally fair regen!), which enables the likes of Torchic, Ponyta, Wingull, Vullaby, etc to get in versus an ideal opposing Pokemon. It helps you swing games, despite Chinchou being aggressively underwhelimg all around.

Snubbull does this part significantly less well -- between Thief or simply popping a Fairy-resist with coverage move, that's all it brings to the table for game swinging. However its general use outside of enabling another Pokemon (which it does somewhat well, but gets pivoted on a lot and Regen mons check it forever...), Snubbull is far stronger as a defensive answer to Fighting-types and general physical attackers than Chinchou is to Flying-types.

Ultimately, I think Snubbull is losing its place in the metagame, but it has some distictly good traits. I feel like it is the definition of a B+ Pokemon though, as it needs so much to go correct for it to shine. This being said, it should share a rank with Chinchou, or be ranked higher than it. And as a whole B ranks need to be trimmed, and aptly handled.

A post-suspect adjustment should really be done with preliminary rankings.
 
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Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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C+ -> C(or C-)
Rowlet isn't really a great mon tbh,with chic's ban It lost one of it's jobs as Bpass recipient
As deffoger It is kinda outclassed by snivy (and vullaby as well) which is much more splashable and has ways to deal a lot better vs rockers
And as of LO set,It is pretty bad tbh,Very slowish to be something that threats your team ATM,while seed also annoys this thing a lot
 

Camden

Hey, it's me!
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View attachment 105814
C+ -> C(or C-)
Rowlet isn't really a great mon tbh,with chic's ban It lost one of it's jobs as Bpass recipient
As deffoger It is kinda outclassed by snivy (and vullaby as well) which is much more splashable and has ways to deal a lot better vs rockers
And as of LO set,It is pretty bad tbh,Very slowish to be something that threats your team ATM,while seed also annoys this thing a lot
While I agree that Rowlet isn't that great of a Pokemon, you should know that the reason for its viability is because of its versatility as a bulky passer, not as a recipient.

On that note, there's probably a case now for Venonat to be C-. It's obviously super early so I'm not going to consider it a real nomination just yet, but I'm mainly just trying to get some thoughts going on the topic of post-Torchic speedpassing, and whether people will still do it at all.
 

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
Magnemite: B+ to A- or even A

Levi already mentioned this a while back but I think mag definitely deserves a higher ranking than B+. Mag usage has shot up recently, as it provides a very solid and strong volt switch to compliment voltturn teams, as well as solid secondary stab and three great abilities. Scarf mag is difficult to switch into, as volt provides solid chip against most electric resists barring foongus while providing momentum. Scarf mag decimates teams with no electric immunity and the two most common current electric immunities in dig and onix die to a well predicted flash cannon. Scarf mag can also clean weakened teams or pick up free kills when the elec or steel resist is gone. Analytic boosts mag's already impressive damage output even further, and scarf magnet pull can be nice for trapping ferros/damaging scarf pawns locked into iron etc.

Bj mag also finds itself being quite solid in the current meta, especially against the regencore mons. Bj mag hard walls and happily switches into the current foongus set if something else has been spored and, while it doesn't appreciate switching into mareanie and poke, volt does a huge amount of damage to both. Foo beats mag 1v1 but doesn't appreciate switching into any attack, especially since foo's tend to exchange knocks turn 2. Being able to threaten common regen core mons, while threatening other common mons in the meta like bj vull, onix, spritzee etc is super nice. With good knock support, theres little in the metagame comfortable with switching into mag, barring the uncommon chinchou.

Mag does suffer somewhat from dig's influence in the meta, but the fact that dig can't always reliably trap mag is a positive for mag imo. Scarf mag has a 50% to ohko dig from full with flash, meaning dig can reliably only trap mag if it's not locked into flash (risky switch into volt/tbolt or revenging after mag has trapped something with bolt/hp fire) or if dig is also scarf. The fact that mag can pick up kills with volt ensures that sacking then trapping doesn't occur which is nice. Bj endure mag is never trapped by dig at full and requires winning 50/50s to trap if bj is intact (although dig is heavily favoured in the 50/50s if carrying sub).

I think mag is better than chinchou, which currently sits at A-. Chinchou boasts better speed as a scarfer but suffers heavily from being really weak and being unable to punish switchins heavily, unlike mag. Unless a 25 speed scarfer or mag check is needed on a team, mag's power is usually desired over chinchou's speed.

I have no idea how good mag would be if regen gets banned, as I imagine the vr rankings would massively change with regen gone but, if regen stays, mag should be at least A- in rankings.
 
Drowzee: Nominating to C- Rank

Drowzee performs surprisingly well against multiple top tier threats in the metagame, almost always picking up a KO due to it's ability to live almost any hit and generating momentum for it's team by deterring the use of physical moves and being able to directly switch into sleep inducing ones.​

Drowzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Insomnia
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 236 Def / 12 SpA / 36 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Psychic
- Protect
- Wish
What role does Drowzee perform in the metagame?
Drowzee functions well as a check to Foongus, fighting types and to a lesser extent physical attackers in general. In the above set it reaches 25/22/24 bulk, allowing it to live all but LO Pawniard's Knock Off and KO in return with Counter. What sets Drowzee apart from Abra as a user of Counter is that a Drowzee that's been knocked off can often find an opportunity later in the game to come in and recover it's HP with Wish against Foongus, weaker special attackers or slower pokemon susceptible to it's STAB Psychic. This allows Drowzee to function as a Spore absorber often for the entirety of the match, while picking up KO's with Counter against physical attackers.
Calculations
vs. Mienfoo
Eviolite
0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO​
0 Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO​
236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO​
236 Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO​
236+ Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
No Eviolite
0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO​
0 Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO​
236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO​
236 Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO​
236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO​
236+ Atk Mienfoo U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
12 SpA Drowzee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mienfoo: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO​
12 SpA Drowzee Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

All variants of Mienfoo are either forced out or OHKO'd by Drowzee's Counter from Knock Off barring a minimum roll and often leave it with enough HP to sponge an attack later on to recover with Wish. If U-turn is used the pokemon switching in takes 20-32 damage depending on Mienfoo's attack stat and damage rolls, either resulting in a KO, a popped Berry Juice or a heavily damaged pokemon. Both U-turn and Knock Off leave Drowzee with enough HP to attempt to recover it's HP later on in the match. With a min roll into a max roll 0 Atk Mienfoo can 2HKO with Knock Off and live to tell the tale, but that will rarely ever happen.​
vs. Vullaby
Eviolite
76 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
156 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
156 Atk Vullaby U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO​
236 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236 Atk Vullaby U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO​
236+ Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236+ Atk Vullaby U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
No Eviolite
76 Atk Vullaby Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
156 Atk Vullaby Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
156 Atk Vullaby U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO​
236 Atk Vullaby Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236 Atk Vullaby U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO​
236+ Atk Vullaby Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236+ Atk Vullaby U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO​

Same deal as Mienfoo. All physical variants are KO'd with Counter from Knock Off, and pivoting with U-turn means the pokemon coming in is taking heavy damage. If it's special Vullaby you're forced to switch out, but at least you haven't activated Weak Armor in the process. It's worth noting that STAB Knock Off from Vullaby variants with higher Atk stats will sometimes leave you without enough HP to recover it later with Wish.​
vs. Pawniard
Eviolite
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236 Atk Pawniard Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 8-12 (32 - 48%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO​
236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO​
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO​
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Drowzee: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO​
No Eviolite
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
236 Atk Pawniard Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO​
236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO​
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO​
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

All Pawniard variants barring the Life Orb set fail to OHKO with Knock Off and are KO'd in return from Counter. Iron Head -> Knock Off can win Pawniard the 1v1 but 236 Atk variants are usually scarf and don't have that liberty. Pawniard will almost always leave Drowzee with a trickle of HP so at best you trade Drowzee to take it out or switch out if you don't anticipate pursuit.​
vs. Foongus
Eviolite
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO​
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO​
No Eviolite
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Drowzee: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO​
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Drowzee: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO​
12 SpA Drowzee Psychic vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO​
12 SpA Drowzee Psychic vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Foongus: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

Drowzee absorbs Spore like there's no tomorrow and needs only 7-13HP of chip damage to force out or KO Foongus with Psychic, depending on whether it's Eviolite has been knocked off already. The damage done by Foongus' Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain even after Drowzee's Eviolite has been lost means it can come in on a predicted Spore and proceed to recover it's HP with Wish. Drowzee will usually have enough HP left over to do this after facing Mienfoo or Vullaby.​
vs. Everything Else
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO​
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Drowzee: 26-34 (104 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
196 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
196 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Drowzee: 20-26 (80 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO​
12 SpA Drowzee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Gastly: 20-26 (105.2 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
It needs it's Eviolite intact to take on LO Gastly but otherwise handles it just fine if you've wished back HP after losing the Eviolite.​
196+ Atk Grimer-Alola Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
196+ Atk Grimer-Alola Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drowzee: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO​
Grimer-A is another trade pokemon for pokemon situation.​
240 SpA Abra Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Drowzee: 9-11 (36 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
Sash Abra lacking Shadow Ball is an example of a special attacker Drowzee can recover it's HP on later on in the match after taking on a physical Knock Off user.​
116 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO​
232 SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Drowzee: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO​
If it's Eviolite is kept intact it walls many special attackers while recovering HP / passing wishes.​
12 SpA Drowzee Psychic vs. 196 HP / 100+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 12-14 (50 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
Mareanie is 2HKO'd and can at worst remove Drowzee's Eviolite.​
12 SpA Drowzee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
Timburr has similar Knock Off rolls to Mienfoo and is deterred from setting up Bulk Up as Psychic 2HKO's.​

Drowzee is quite passive and does give free turns to Spritzee and Snivy, but used well and with good prediction it can perform as a physical check, a Spore absorber and a special wall throughout the match. I think it's a pretty good pokemon and deserves a ranking.​
Replays:
 
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SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
Drowzee: Nominating to C- Rank
im somehow agreeing with hawkie... no hard feelings i hope

but yes, in this meta, psychic is actually a good typing (!). The issue is, you aren't gonna see these memes like chingling and what not outside of really really low ladder (ooh pretty bell to go with my nice ice cream). But bulky psychic flat out counters poison, at least checks fighting (knock/turn spam is the real hindrance to psychic, and it always will be), and fares well with a lot of glass cannons around.

i tried playing with it, and, it was surprisingly... OK. not gonna call it great lol. pawn, regardless of your calcs, just forces you out. i would recommend a bulky z move abuser (especially z [mirror move!] vully), as your flat out switchin. gastly is common ish. the thing about drowzee is
*sigh*
spritzee
someone said fairy isnt as good this meta, which, what? pawn exists, sure, but it resists fighting, knock off, and uturn.
and it has wish.

i'd agree with the nom. if you are using like snub, flabebe (lOL), cottonee, or morelul (dont), or have sufficient checks to the moves that run this meta, i'd say its a nice tank. counter is definitely underappreciated.

however, it grants free setup turns, is a lil bit outclassed (read: flat out outclassed), and just. ykno. isnt.

tl;dr agree with nom, but don't get carried away.

also, your opponent either knows you have insomnia, or has just typed /dt drowzee foon is running anyway. if you're that concerned, just use natu (dont)
 

SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
and, #doublepost, some nitpicky things i have after the momentous ban of regenerator torchic.

First of all, I'm looking at the slowpoke nom y'all said to hold until after the suspect. and. i really had tothink there's an enormous divide between b+ and b in these rankings. i was floored to see that magnemite and maraenie (ill get to the m&ms) sit in a tier above vulpix-a, zig, tailow, and surskit in a non-webs meta. with that said. i still gotta go Slowpoke > B. Its nice way to deal with torchic is a niche no longer required. It has a terrible typing. It's bulky but it doesnt matter when you don't have a solid niche and have nothing in the way of utility. it really just brings to the table not taking as much from super effective common moves (knock, uturn, volt switch). and it has slack off.

BRONZOR FROM UNRANKED WHAT > B- i will confess to being the #1 bronzor fan. and i have quite a few replays where it has just won me a game. recycle + incredible bulk, rocks, heavy slam, psychic. has levitate. it is weak to knock off, and that really hurts it because of recycle, but, outside of band pawn, bronzor. doesn't. die. from. it. (it also can't hit pawniard but be impressed by that). bronzor is really good because it can set up rocks early game, and then wear mons down late game when it's own checks are gone. this mon is actually terrific. Sealette tag. y'all gotta at least put this thing on the board. remoraid is on the rankings and im not sure i've ever actually battled one.

Mudbray > A-/B+ isn't onix. still has a place but onix

Magnemite > A- not actually as big on the mag train. volt switch is not nearly as useful as uturn. needing to be locked into a move, and having your primary click being voltswitch literally means ground control. however, it's just deadly. a correctly predicted flash cannon just ruins said ground types. volt switch is still a godly move. amazing spa. but be cautious.

Staryu > A+/A staryu doesn't even check torchic any more. snivy and staryu don't coexist. snivy is better 70% of the time. staryu still has sets to run, but it has one less good one. (the bulky one) 19 speed tho.

Bunny > B-/C+ huge power isn't as nice as you think with bunnelby's terrible stats. timburr and mienfoo just ruin the mon, as bulky sets of both are only 2hkoed (a weak 2hko at that) by return.

Zigzagzoon > C+ is the literal embodiment of a c tier mon. has a usable niche, but needs tremendous support.

Budew > B- yes this is drastic. the torchic ban was drastic. this mon has sleep powder, spikes, tspikes, usable defense, and an okish type. before you say oh no my favorite foon. they play different roles. sure i wouldn't advise using the two on the same team, but it's doable (dont use sleep powder tho). but a hazard setter (And tspikes are underrated this meta. one layer) with sleep powder and a fighting resist isn't bad. i know other people will echo this nom in particular, maybe less drastically, but the torchic ban might have helped this particular mon the most.

Archen > B praise flyspam. is usually gonna get hard enough to just activate that bjuice and
boom.
requires prediction. but good. ish.

Anorith > B- put em down, pick em up (But keep your own rocks), with excellent attack and great speed. however, 4mss is a *****************. ajet isnt even stab and you actually have to run it, leaving only one movement to actively use. but nb

Stunky > C+ huh? it isnt grimer a, but its again, an okish defogger with great typing, priority (this time strong stab). not really feeling C-

Snivy > S- other people have made better arguments. torchic is banned now, though.

finally some fun bulletpoints of mons that i think should be ranked. c-, though, not bronzor level
  • skiddo (bulkyish with horn leech)
  • sandygast (fighting check wit dat 80 def)
  • pineco
  • ducklett
  • bidoof (PAUSE PAUSE. simple is a meme. but we have numel ranked. we have munchlax ranked really high. memes should be c-. they have a niche: being a meme) please note i dont mean meme as in haha bidoof is funny, i mean, haha, good players can usually stop this and groan when they see this.
please raise bronzor and budew. at least read the rest

so yeah these are a lot, and a lot of em regard the lowish part of the tiering. torchic changed a lot. seriously consider budew. i know a lot of you already have. and the b+ to b divide could be bigger than [insert something large]
 
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Altariel von Sweep

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Ok, I'm going to do an answer to some nominations scheff and other users have made, and talk about some of mine.

Disagree. Slowpoke still accomplishes a description of what a B+ rank is, despite the common flaws it has. It's a solid check to Ground-types in the metagame, and can scare Snivy and Steel-types (Ferroseed and Pawniard) out, as well as still pressuring Fighting-types although they have Knock Off. It's true that Torchic is gone, but Slowpoke's niche wasn't checking it all the time: it's to be a defensive pivot with available utility options and double recovery in Regenerator + Slack Off (though only Ponyta in the metagame and how trends move, it's the only Regenerator user that doesn't struggle too much against it). Keep it at B+.

Regarding to Mareanie, I have already made a post about it, defending why should it rise to A-, and reasons are better now, as it's not forced to run Haze anymore (can still run it, but Torchic's departure enhanced it to extend its other utility options even further). Rise it.

I agree on rising Bronzor, but B- is WAY too much. Typing and bulk make it a cool counter to Abra and Mudbray that sets up Stealth Rock, can wear down Fairy-types, as well as dealing consistently against Wingull and other Water-types. Main flaw is slowness and reliance on Berry Juice to keep itself healthy throughout a match, but when threats are removed, it's annoying to deal with. In my opinion, a solid C or C- fit better.

My lord, please rise this up to A-. It has flourished in a metagame filled with Regenerator and less Chinchou with all of its three sets being useful. Scarf Analytic hits like a truck despite already being really strong, SturdyJuice is a safety net against some threats, and Magnet Pull, though it's more team specific, deals with Pawniard and Ferroseed. Its typing and power makes it a great member for VoltTurn teams, and hits most of the common threats, being most of them 2HKOed. While it's ability to check Flying-types is kinda poor, all its other traits make it up for a rise.

Disagree. While Staryu has lost use as a Spinner due to Defog's prevalence (Snivy, Vullaby and Wingull), it can still threaten many teams with its offensive sets, which run very great coverage to hit a wide array of the metagame. 19 Speed is still a great benchmark to couple with its offensive prowess, and Rapid Spin can still be run for having hazard control. All these traits make it a good Pokemon to use in Water spam teams, with partners such as Shellder or Carvanha. Keep it at S-.


Disagree on Anorith's rise. Kabuto still does its niche even better with Weak Armor and typing + bulk. Keep it at C.
While on Kabuto's hand, I'd like a drop to B instead of Slowpoke. Its niche gets almost fully invalidated with Snivy and other Defog users running everywhere, as well as Electric- and Grass-types. Note that three actions (rocks, spin, flying check) cannot be fully accomplished with an aggresive metagame that discourages passive playing.

Nah, not C+. Zigzagoon is still a big threat, with Return hitting stronk to normal resists after BD'ing up. Still, has a very hard time setting up without great support, so I'd drop it at B-.

Disagree. Bunnelby, while it has a hard time hitting Fighting-types such as Bulky Mienfoo and Timburr (which get 2hkoed, but, why would you switch them in without knowing its item?) Life Orb can hit like a truck, being able to knock out a big chunk of the metagame, amd make matchup against those really easy, being Onix the real check to it. Keep it at B.

Disagree. Solid Stealth Rock user that exerts quite a big offensive pressure and hits things very strong, as well as being a good Electric inmunity that can deal with Magnemite. Keep it at A.

Yup, Torchic's gone, and Budew can flourish now (sorry for the really bad pun). Reasons above get more valid with one of its terrors gone, being able to scare Snivy and Fairies out, check Foongus and put something to sleep + set a layer of Spikes for every change. Has a hard time thinking on running recovery or coverage, as it'd like to keep itself healthy, but wants also to hit Ferroseed. C+ is my point for it.

Absolutely rise this to C-. Solid Foongus check that can take physical checks out and keep itself healthy with a forced change.

Though it might be rejected, I'd like Chinchou to rise back to A. I have been running Berry Juice Chinchou, and it does really well in this metagame, offering a good pick for VoltTurn teams that can manage Magnemite quite well, as well as use a Hidden Power of election (in my case, HP Fire hits Ferroseed, which is a great benefit for it to put pressure) and exert Speed control with Thunder Wave. Though you can expect Diglett to come in, it's a good way to bluff Scarf and take it out. Rise it.

I have no opinion on the others.

tl;dr:
keep slowpoke in B+, staryu in S-, anorith in C, bunnelby in B, and mudbray in A
drop kabuto to B and zigzagoon to B-
rise mareanie and magnemite to A-, bronzor to C-/C, drowzee to C-, budew to C+ and chinchou to A
 

Fille

Afk
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LCPL Champion
SCHEFF sparking some discussion, that's fun. I hate discussions so I'll note down 3-5 thoughts and they'll be 100% correct and impossible to argue with.



Disagree (for now) Slowpoke is pretty decent for Twave support and can threaten any likely switch-in with Fire Blast or Psychic bar Elec types, and by bar Elec types I mean bar Chinchou. It's not a fantastic mon by all means, but the sheer bulk and decent coverage+utility makes it one of the better B+ mons.


Agree (With AVS) B- is wayyyy too high, as it's only niche is really setting up and Mudbrays, Onixes and Abras and very bulky things without knock off. However, in the current metagame, that is a pretty nifty niche, and far better than alot of the C tier mons, as this thing is actually reliable in quite a few matchups. I'd say C tier as well.



Disagree You're right Scheff, it isn't an Onix. Elec immunity that beats Mag, SR and sick offensive prowess. You're just sleeping on it because you run bronzor all the time :[


Agree with Avs again. STAB Volt Switch > U-turn my God please yes.


Drop this to A+. Staryu is a great mon, and while Snivy now is better as a remover 70% of the time, the spin set is still viable and the offensive sets are all great etc like AVS said. I just ought to remember though that these abilities were what kept it in A+, and what rose it to S- was solely based on the rapid spin set being the only viable remover in the tier without being what felt like a niche pick (Bjuice Vullaby laughing at it rn ig). Whoever argues it still is hasn't paid much attention to the meta or is stuck in BW2. I'm just bored of Staryu being ranked so high right now lol.



Disagree True fighting types check it well, but they just check it, and otherwise the only semi-hard counters are shit like Gastly, Pumpkaboo, Ferroseed and Bronzor. Thing is, while it's not a fantastic mon by all means, it keeps the pressure up for the opponent, meaning Foo can't take any knock offs or it'll die to a scarf return and Timburrs needs to be kept healthy (but then again not a huge issue) also Gastly can die to the wrong prediction, so can steel checks not named Ferroseed. Bronzor and Pumpkaboo are both rather uncommon atm so idk why I'm even mentioning those.


Agree Scheff put this one really nicely tbh, go read that one.



Agree I don't see how Budew hasn't been upped yet. Sleep+Hazards+Decent coverage+Reliable recovery+Poison Typing. It's like a mix between Foongus and Trubbish, Foongus gave up Regen for hazards which was a worse deal but great for team support on slightly more offensive teams. It's not a dead end momentum killer like Ferroseed, and doesn't die turn 3 like Dwebble, making it (arguably) the best spiker for any offensive team. Ferroseed still has a say, but let's be honest Dwebble as a spiker is dead.


Disagree Archen had it's glory highlights when Jox brought it to LCPL last year, but the surprise value from the Hero set is gone, and while it's a fun mon to bring for Flying spam, it's got little value > Taillow/Doduo/Vullaby, all of which can dismantle Onix's and Ferroseeds, just a bit more reliably (Unless you predict the wrong set but then again that fucks Archen too so why bother?).


Disagee Good Speed tier, Great attack stat, Stealth Rocks and Knock Off. That's it though. Know quite a few other things with similar traits that lacks the horrendous Rock/Bug typing, AND if you compare it to Pawniard, while lacking an equal Speed Tier, makes up for that with STAB Sucker Punch. Aqua Jet is fun n shit, but doesn't do much when it's not STAB. I'd make a case for it in C- tbh, as other things in the C tier are actually quite useful, like Axew, Natu, Lileep, Tyrunt and Spinarak.


Refrain from arguing on this one, I just think it looks cute :3


Not sure how I feel about a rise for this. I think maybe it should just stay the same tier as Staryu tbh, as while this is by far the better option for hazard removal and groundcheck nowadays, Staryu is slightly more versatile in its roles outside hazard removal, roles that they both do very similarly in spite of typing, coverage and speed. Then again I may just be wrong in my assumption that both of them do a wallbreaking thing to break down otherwise common checks like foongus, mareanie(staryu), pawniard (Snivy) and shit like Spritzee. In case of my analysis of Staryu (or 5 sentence gibberish whatever the fuck you call it) I'd keep it in A+, but if everyone so keen on keeping the fidget spinner in S- then let Snivy rise as well.


C rank With the inflasion of Snivy and Onix in the tier, as well as other stuff like Mudbray being slightly more common I think it warrants a C rank for a pretty fucking great niche. Definitely better than shit like Anorith and Dratini.



C- Rank Yeah it actually worked somehow. Foongus counter is always fun, and checking shit like Abra as well as counter being a fun option (And Psychic Terrain if u wanna).


Agree with AVS, A rank While Chinchou is not a great counter to anything but Water types and Chinchous on paper, it is a pretty decent blanket check to many things like birds for example, if you don't feel like running Onix+Foongus on every team and need a small momentum regainer in Volt Switch. Also got fun coverage moves and an offensive presence that is admittedly lackluster, but possible to invest in.


Rise to C+ Actually a pretty legit late-game sweeper, it has decent bulk and the coverage to beat Fairies if chipped. Z Outrage from a +1 Axew is by all means not easy to tank, and Mold Breaker is a fantastic ability in a tier with so many Sturdy mons that would otherwise check it. dcae support tyvm


Drop to C- Why is this the same rank as Axew and Tyrunt? All 3 are dragon type Dragon Dance sweepers, except Axew and Tyrunt has an easier time setting up AND can actually do other things. Dratini can't, and arguably has trouble dancing due to lack of bulk or feet.
 

SCHEFF

I COULD BE BANNED!
Ok so a couple more mons that I just assumed were ranked and they aren't.

why isn't ferroseed ranked? something to do with it being "pu" because of usage? WHAT! B+ at least.

Karrablast > C not C-. Stab No Guard Megahorn with nice coverage options. Gets Knock Off, Drill Run, PJab, Pursuit, Aerial Ace, DEdge, Facade. With Scarf, this thing can actually shine. I know some good players that really like scarf blast.

Froakie > C- hardest hitting uturn in the tier. can set hazards. protean. is weak, though, but has a niche.

Yamask > C- has tspikes and a good typing and mummy can cripple regen type mons.

Growlithe > C- has good spa and atk, usable speed, and intimidate, which is nice. also has morning sun.

Klink > C isn't bad. set up sweeper with a 2 hit move. The big problem is said 2 hit move has 85% accuracy

Woobat > C- simple stored power cm roost heatwave is a niche, but its one you should be prepared for.

Some mons that I think should leave the rankings

Remoraid: has a good movepool. that's it. Ledyba has an amazing movepool (no, seriously. look!). I doubt Ledyba will ever be ranked. Even if you want to argue for a specs or a scarf set, staryu just outclasses it in every possible way. If you argue for a physical set, it'd rely on 2 mutli-hit moves, at which point, you need to really rethink why you arent using shelder.

Exeggcute: 40 base speed and not good offenses. not even sun can save this mon (edit: i guess harvest is kind of a niche? i dont see it though)

love the discussion its fun and what not and gets people to use new mons.
 
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Merritt

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Ok so a couple more mons that I just assumed were ranked and they aren't.

why isn't ferroseed ranked? something to do with it being "pu" because of usage? WHAT! B+ at least.
rank ferroseed
Ferroseed is in A. Are you ok?

ok let's not make this a one liner.

Karrablast's niche is Megahorn, but Bug is actually a really bad offensive type in the current metagame. U-turn makes it look good, because U-turn is amazing, but Bug really doesn't do that well. It definitely shouldn't move up - there's plenty of better scarfers in general.

Froakie is nowhere near good enough to rank, it's got a niche that you can make work but it doesn't really contribute to teams without having to build around its specific attributes in order to just get a vaguely usable mon.

Yamask is shit. Don't use it. If you're going to nom this then you damn well better have some spectacular replays to prove its worth.

Growlithe is worse Ponyta 95% of the time. Burns are better than Intimidate.

Klink is workable in theory but it's awful in practice. Go try it out and see what it does. Shouldn't be in C.

Woobat has been terrible every time I've tried it - like a worse Vullaby. Again, replays if you want an unranked mon like this to be ranked.

No comment on Remoraid, but Ledyba lacks any kind of stats to back up its movepool. Remoraid at least has stats to back up its fantastic movepool.
 
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