Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

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You can't late game sweep with those mons without taking out the threats to them first, which Mewtwo can do. I agree with those sets not being as good as the LO set but they still have their pros. That Yveltal calc is the lefties set as Mewtwo is obviously not living a LO sucker. Why would xern be boosted? Of course Mewtwo doesnt beat a geomancy boosted xerneas lol. Unless you are talking about a defense boosting nature which Xern still isnt coming in on a Mewtwo as its 2hko'd or forced to rest which is countered by taunt. It also cant geomancy up on Mewtwo as it can just taunt. Also if you're running scarf xern you aren't going to be bulky. Mewtwo vs Mgar is all based on a speed tie anyway and Mewtwo taunts the Waterceus and beats it 1v1. The point im trying to make is Mewtwo has close to no absolutely safe switchins and demands counterplay.
Isn't Yveltal normally LO? Even if it isn't, we often see Scarf Yveltal, which does this:
252+ SpA Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo: 420-494 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mewtwo doesn't demand counterplay when it straight loses to both of the major sets of one of the most popular mons in the tier. I agree that it should be ranked higher, but not too much higher, maybe just a bit within C+.
 
I said its ability to put rocks is its niche and why u use it. It doesnt do other things as well as other mons in the tier. It cant setup like Xern and cant defog like giratina or other arceus. I think I shoulda made that clearer.
you did make it clear. thats my point exactly. you can't compare sr fairyceus to setup sweeper xerneas. you can't compare sr fairyceus to defog giratina. you can't compare sr fairyceus to defog arceus forms. compare sr fairyceus to other sr setters. compare it to other ygod checks. compare it to other marshadow checks. compare it to other mence checks. don't compare it to things that play completely different roles.
 
you did make it clear. thats my point exactly. you can't compare sr fairyceus to setup sweeper xerneas. you can't compare sr fairyceus to defog giratina. you can't compare sr fairyceus to defog arceus forms. compare sr fairyceus to other sr setters. compare it to other ygod checks. compare it to other marshadow checks. compare it to other mence checks. don't compare it to things that play completely different roles.
At the same time, u do kinda have to compare to other Arceus formes, as u can only use one on a team. Comparing the usefulness of the biggest arceus formes like Fairy, Flying, and Water is kinda necessary.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
So I've been holding onto this one for a while, but I think its about time for probably one of the most controversial mons I have used. I am going to nominate:
Mega Venusaur: Unranked --> B-

You probably think I am crazy or just doing some stupid esm nom, which is kind of the truth but hear me out at least. I have made two very good Venusaur teams that I personally believe are near the top of meta, and Venusaur I also believe to be not only the best defensive mega in Ubers, but also the best Mega on Balance atm. Mega Venusaur answers a large portion of the meta, including threats like Arceus-Fairy (all sets), Xerneas (all sets except the rare Psyshock), Primal Kyogre (Sub CM can be scary), SpDef Primal Groudon (-Speed variants are countered as they will be outpaced by Venusaur and Synth gets the extra healing), Supportceus (Water and Ground and aforementioned variants of Fairy), non ZMove Marshadow, Celesteela and many others. Those are just the common mons that it counters, not counting those that it checks. On top of this, due to its versatile moveset, it can run different things to respond to things its weak to including options like Toxic, Roar, Knock Off, Sleep Powder and Earthquake alongside its standard GK, Synth, Leech, meaning it can potentially cripple would be switchins. Depending on the moveset, it can be a very potent mon against Stall, heavily pressuring a good portion of the members (if run with Knock).

Of course, I am not nomming Mega Venusaur for something absurdly high for now (I believe it to a lot better than the rank I am nomming it for), because I recognize that it does have significant weaknesses. In a current meta where Dusk Mane is a huge threat, and Yveltal can be very much a threat and the meta moving away from balance teams, Venusaur isn't as potent as it once was. It also takes up a mega slot, which can be a limitation for some teams and it doesn't provide much team utility like SR or Defog. It also does generally have ways to break it built into many teams (Yveltal, Ho-oh etc.) and can invite some mons to setup.

TL;DR Mega Venusaur should deserve a spot on this list because of its amazing blanket check ability in the current meta and punish switchins with various options. It can be a crucial mon to constructing Balance teams, however it is obviously not without its flaws. I wanted it on this list because I feel that it is definitely good enough (also cuz ppl dont believe me when i say its good but wtv). Also if you need any evidence of its performance, I have many replays on this account in different tour matches performing.
 
So I've been holding onto this one for a while, but I think its about time for probably one of the most controversial mons I have used. I am going to nominate:
Mega Venusaur: Unranked --> B-

You probably think I am crazy or just doing some stupid esm nom, which is kind of the truth but hear me out at least. I have made two very good Venusaur teams that I personally believe are near the top of meta, and Venusaur I also believe to be not only the best defensive mega in Ubers, but also the best Mega on Balance atm. Mega Venusaur answers a large portion of the meta, including threats like Arceus-Fairy (all sets), Xerneas (all sets except the rare Psyshock), Primal Kyogre (Sub CM can be scary), SpDef Primal Groudon (-Speed variants are countered as they will be outpaced by Venusaur and Synth gets the extra healing), Supportceus (Water and Ground and aforementioned variants of Fairy), non ZMove Marshadow, Celesteela and many others. Those are just the common mons that it counters, not counting those that it checks. On top of this, due to its versatile moveset, it can run different things to respond to things its weak to including options like Toxic, Roar, Knock Off, Sleep Powder and Earthquake alongside its standard GK, Synth, Leech, meaning it can potentially cripple would be switchins. Depending on the moveset, it can be a very potent mon against Stall, heavily pressuring a good portion of the members (if run with Knock).

Of course, I am not nomming Mega Venusaur for something absurdly high for now (I believe it to a lot better than the rank I am nomming it for), because I recognize that it does have significant weaknesses. In a current meta where Dusk Mane is a huge threat, and Yveltal can be very much a threat and the meta moving away from balance teams, Venusaur isn't as potent as it once was. It also takes up a mega slot, which can be a limitation for some teams and it doesn't provide much team utility like SR or Defog. It also does generally have ways to break it built into many teams (Yveltal, Ho-oh etc.) and can invite some mons to setup.

TL;DR Mega Venusaur should deserve a spot on this list because of its amazing blanket check ability in the current meta and punish switchins with various options. It can be a crucial mon to constructing Balance teams, however it is obviously not without its flaws. I wanted it on this list because I feel that it is definitely good enough (also cuz ppl dont believe me when i say its good but wtv). Also if you need any evidence of its performance, I have many replays on this account in different tour matches performing.
I agree it definitely deserves to be ranked, but I feel B- is to much to start of with, especially since Yveltal is still prevalent. Looking at B-, I see Chansey, Cloyster, Smeargle, and Arceus-Dragon, all of which I feel are on a tier above it. C+ seems more appropriate.
 
I believe that Mega Mewtwo X should be moved to at least a B. Unlike it’s counterpart M-Mewtwo Y, It has a decent amount of bulk, and has a decent defensive typing. Having access to Bulk Up allows it to compensate for its lack in Special Defense for Defense, while raising it’s already high Attack stat. It’s movepool and learnable moves up to USM makes its attacks very diverse. It can learn all elemental punches, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, and other well covering moves. The one thing that I say would keep Mewtwo X in B tier would be status conditions, like Paralysis and Burn. Halving it’s stats is detrimental to Mewtwo, and it needs a Heal Bell or Aromatherapy user for synergy option within the team. That is argument for Mega Mewtwo X.

(Mega Venusaur)
I agree. It is a very overlooked mon who has great bulk and STAB movepool, and can play out in various ways. I support this. But make it C class.
 
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So I've been holding onto this one for a while, but I think its about time for probably one of the most controversial mons I have used. I am going to nominate:
Mega Venusaur: Unranked --> B-

You probably think I am crazy or just doing some stupid esm nom, which is kind of the truth but hear me out at least. I have made two very good Venusaur teams that I personally believe are near the top of meta, and Venusaur I also believe to be not only the best defensive mega in Ubers, but also the best Mega on Balance atm. Mega Venusaur answers a large portion of the meta, including threats like Arceus-Fairy (all sets), Xerneas (all sets except the rare Psyshock), Primal Kyogre (Sub CM can be scary), SpDef Primal Groudon (-Speed variants are countered as they will be outpaced by Venusaur and Synth gets the extra healing), Supportceus (Water and Ground and aforementioned variants of Fairy), non ZMove Marshadow, Celesteela and many others. Those are just the common mons that it counters, not counting those that it checks. On top of this, due to its versatile moveset, it can run different things to respond to things its weak to including options like Toxic, Roar, Knock Off, Sleep Powder and Earthquake alongside its standard GK, Synth, Leech, meaning it can potentially cripple would be switchins. Depending on the moveset, it can be a very potent mon against Stall, heavily pressuring a good portion of the members (if run with Knock).

Of course, I am not nomming Mega Venusaur for something absurdly high for now (I believe it to a lot better than the rank I am nomming it for), because I recognize that it does have significant weaknesses. In a current meta where Dusk Mane is a huge threat, and Yveltal can be very much a threat and the meta moving away from balance teams, Venusaur isn't as potent as it once was. It also takes up a mega slot, which can be a limitation for some teams and it doesn't provide much team utility like SR or Defog. It also does generally have ways to break it built into many teams (Yveltal, Ho-oh etc.) and can invite some mons to setup.

TL;DR Mega Venusaur should deserve a spot on this list because of its amazing blanket check ability in the current meta and punish switchins with various options. It can be a crucial mon to constructing Balance teams, however it is obviously not without its flaws. I wanted it on this list because I feel that it is definitely good enough (also cuz ppl dont believe me when i say its good but wtv). Also if you need any evidence of its performance, I have many replays on this account in different tour matches performing.
I would disagree on this. Okay, maybe it shouldn't be unranked, but probably down in C. If you look at every pokemon from A- to S+ (meta defining mons), 7/21 of the mons counter this mon. Even if it were to be tier-specfic, look at Lunala, Deoxys-A, Lugia, Mega Mewtwo Y, Psychium Z Tapu Lele, Celesteela with Air Slash (Not so common, but could still happen), Chansey with Seismic Toss. So many things to knock it back to OU. The 2 most meta mons (Yveltal and DM Necrozma) can easily slay Mega Venasaur and benefit from it. DM Necrozma can use it to set-up and have a 50% chance to OHKO with +2 Sunsteel Strike and SR. Yveltal 2HKOs this thing with Oblivion Wing and SR (6.3% to OHKO with Specs) and gains much HP in the process (Both these cals are using it's OU Defensive set).
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
I would disagree on this. Okay, maybe it shouldn't be unranked, but probably down in C. If you look at every pokemon from A- to S+ (meta defining mons), 7/21 of the mons counter this mon. Even if it were to be tier-specfic, look at Lunala, Deoxys-A, Lugia, Mega Mewtwo Y, Psychium Z Tapu Lele, Celesteela with Air Slash (Not so common, but could still happen), Chansey with Seismic Toss. So many things to knock it back to OU. The 2 most meta mons (Yveltal and DM Necrozma) can easily slay Mega Venasaur and benefit from it. DM Necrozma can use it to set-up and have a 50% chance to OHKO with +2 Sunsteel Strike and SR. Yveltal 2HKOs this thing with Oblivion Wing and SR (6.3% to OHKO with Specs) and gains much HP in the process (Both these cals are using it's OU Defensive set).
Lugia and Chansey will straight out lose to Venu, both being unable to touch it while getting sapped by Leech, and they both fear Knock while Lugia fears Toxic. I have ceded that Mega Venusaur does have a couple major flaws, and probably the biggest is Dusk Mane, as offensive variants can come in and set up, however outside of this mon, all other relevant switchins are punished by or fear one of MVenus options. MVenu has a 4th slot to tech, so if the team you use is specifically weak to DM, good options include Roar and Sleep Powder. Of course Venusaur does have issues, but its boons cannot be ignored, and there are few mons that are able to check this many of the top meta threats in a slot while still being able to maintain threat against a good portion of the mons that beat it.
 
A bad news for you, but I too have problem with your nomination on Mega Venusaur.

Apart from the fact that you have nominated already niche Pokémon for B-, I don't see a reason why you would believe Mega Venusaur has similar level of viability as things listed in such rank. Majority of them have strengths that often outshines their weakness. If you run Mega Venusaur, it means you are dedicating a Mega slot to check specific threats and that doesn't sound too appealing in the first place.

Let's go over your points. Yes, it does wall Arceus-Fairy, Xerneas, and Primal Kyogre with its typing. SpDef Pdon? It 2HKOs mega venusaur with any moves after Stealth Rock and you are forced to stay there and press Synthesis that has only 8 PP. Chances are, if one switches mvenu into offensive pdon with a thought that it is spdef and you can stall with Synthesis, you can be hit by full-powered Overheat which does upward 81% to max spdef mvenu or give a free turn for something like Swords Dance. Support Arceus, yes, mvenu checks them. Non ZMove Marshadow? If you run spdef it 2HKOs you with Spectral Thief after Stealth Rock. Celesteela is one of the worst declining Pokémon at this moment and I do not believe it is a good example to make a comparison with.

Until now mvenu seems okay. But here is the next issue; if mvenu runs maxdef, it is 2hkod by Origin Pulse after minimal chip and groundceus Judgment does upwards 42% meaning you have to spam Synthesis. If you run max spdef to alleviate these issues, that is the point where you worsen mvenu's ability to handle defensive Pdon and let it get 2HKOd by Marshadow after Stealth Rock.

You still end up with this much shaky wall that handles only couple specific threats when you dedicate a Mega slot. This already leaves us with a question related with opportunity cost. Also you also have mentioned utility moves but in reality you can't fit them all in one slot. First off you will obviously need Synthesis and Leech Seed. You already have two moveslots left when you theoretically wish to fit Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Earthquake / Sleep Powder / Roar / Giga Drain.

Roar has to fit here; otherwise you will get straight up steamrolled by just about every Substitute users which are becoming increasingly common (and again, you should know this if you have been experimenting in the ladder). mmence / arceus / groundceus and pogre when you lack giga drain. That leaves you one slot. Knock Off is just awful because every switch-in to mvenu barring ho-oh and yveltal have irremovable items, Eathquake doesn't do jack outides hitting mega gengar (and you still lose to wis + hex), Sleep Powder is just bad with aforementioned reasons with Substitute users, and Giga Drain has like no coverage - not to mention pogre takes upwards 30% after a single Calm Mind and 2HKOs you back with Origin Pulse.

This much flaws come from the opportunity risk of handing over Mega Stone to mvenu. I seriously doubt that it is worth to dedicate a mega slot to a pokemon that has this much inconsistency issues as well as moveslot syndrome.
Those are just the common mons that it counters, not counting those that it checks.
This statement is invalid at this point. Counter is when you can deal with a mon in all circumstances but there are clearly more than few occasions where mvenu fails to even check the threats it desires to switch into.
Depending on the moveset, it can be a very potent mon against Stall, heavily pressuring a good portion of the members
Giratina-A and Ho-Oh are just nightmares to deal with, and Chansey barely carries Seismic Toss when employed in stall teams and thus has no reason to switch into or stay in against mvenu. Mega Sableye is also a hard stop if you don't run Sludge Bomb and running it causes a loss of another utility move.

Another serious problem with this Pokémon is that you have to build around it when Mega Venusaur does very little in return for its team outsides seeding a switch-in and occasionally using sleep powder (which means you forgo sludge bomb / giga drain and become more passive). What I can say the better alternative is Ferrothorn - it doesn't check Xerneas and Marshadow but it is one of the three viable Spikes setter in the tier, checks CM ogre if carries Power Whip.

This much flaw exists with mvenu when you use your mega slot for it. The mega mon you build around loses to extremely common threats: pdon, necrozma-dm / any ultra necrozma, yveltal, mgar, mmence, sub zyg-c, ho-oh, subcm ogre, and rayquaza. I just went through current VR down for couple seconds and it turns out this many threats can take advantage of mvenu. That is not to mention it is also prone to Gothitelle trapping. I personally think mvenu has a similar level of viability as mega slowbro - which is currently unranked - because of the very few specific niche it has in exchange of countless, crippling flaws. You might say the "boons" cannot be ignored, but the so-called-unique role mvenu compresses is hold back due to it adding more defensive flaws than it covers, meaning it will entirely depend on its teammates to make a defensive team together and thus cannot afford to fit in BO - again, it has to be built around.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
A bad news for you, but I too have problem with your nomination on Mega Venusaur.

Apart from the fact that you have nominated already niche Pokémon for B-, I don't see a reason why you would believe Mega Venusaur has similar level of viability as things listed in such rank. Majority of them have strengths that often outshines their weakness. If you run Mega Venusaur, it means you are dedicating a Mega slot to check specific threats and that doesn't sound too appealing in the first place.

Let's go over your points. Yes, it does wall Arceus-Fairy, Xerneas, and Primal Kyogre with its typing. SpDef Pdon? It 2HKOs mega venusaur with any moves after Stealth Rock and you are forced to stay there and press Synthesis that has only 8 PP. Chances are, if one switches mvenu into offensive pdon with a thought that it is spdef and you can stall with Synthesis, you can be hit by full-powered Overheat which does upward 81% to max spdef mvenu or give a free turn for something like Swords Dance. Support Arceus, yes, mvenu checks them. Non ZMove Marshadow? If you run spdef it 2HKOs you with Spectral Thief after Stealth Rock. Celesteela is one of the worst declining Pokémon at this moment and I do not believe it is a good example to make a comparison with.

Until now mvenu seems okay. But here is the next issue; if mvenu runs maxdef, it is 2hkod by Origin Pulse after minimal chip and groundceus Judgment does upwards 42% meaning you have to spam Synthesis. If you run max spdef to alleviate these issues, that is the point where you worsen mvenu's ability to handle defensive Pdon and let it get 2HKOd by Marshadow after Stealth Rock.

You still end up with this much shaky wall that handles only couple specific threats when you dedicate a Mega slot. This already leaves us with a question related with opportunity cost. Also you also have mentioned utility moves but in reality you can't fit them all in one slot. First off you will obviously need Synthesis and Leech Seed. You already have two moveslots left when you theoretically wish to fit Sludge Bomb / Knock Off / Earthquake / Sleep Powder / Roar / Giga Drain.

Roar has to fit here; otherwise you will get straight up steamrolled by just about every Substitute users which are becoming increasingly common (and again, you should know this if you have been experimenting in the ladder). mmence / arceus / groundceus and pogre when you lack giga drain. That leaves you one slot. Knock Off is just awful because every switch-in to mvenu barring ho-oh and yveltal have irremovable items, Eathquake doesn't do jack outides hitting mega gengar (and you still lose to wis + hex), Sleep Powder is just bad with aforementioned reasons with Substitute users, and Giga Drain has like no coverage - not to mention pogre takes upwards 30% after a single Calm Mind and 2HKOs you back with Origin Pulse.

This much flaws come from the opportunity risk of handing over Mega Stone to mvenu. I seriously doubt that it is worth to dedicate a mega slot to a pokemon that has this much inconsistency issues as well as moveslot syndrome.

This statement is invalid at this point. Counter is when you can deal with a mon in all circumstances but there are clearly more than few occasions where mvenu fails to even check the threats it desires to switch into.

Giratina-A and Ho-Oh are just nightmares to deal with, and Chansey barely carries Seismic Toss when employed in stall teams and thus has no reason to switch into or stay in against mvenu. Mega Sableye is also a hard stop if you don't run Sludge Bomb and running it causes a loss of another utility move.

Another serious problem with this Pokémon is that you have to build around it when Mega Venusaur does very little in return for its team outsides seeding a switch-in and occasionally using sleep powder (which means you forgo sludge bomb / giga drain and become more passive). What I can say the better alternative is Ferrothorn - it doesn't check Xerneas and Marshadow but it is one of the three viable Spikes setter in the tier, checks CM ogre if carries Power Whip.

This much flaw exists with mvenu when you use your mega slot for it. The mega mon you build around loses to extremely common threats: pdon, necrozma-dm / any ultra necrozma, yveltal, mgar, mmence, sub zyg-c, ho-oh, subcm ogre, and rayquaza. I just went through current VR down for couple seconds and it turns out this many threats can take advantage of mvenu. That is not to mention it is also prone to Gothitelle trapping. I personally think mvenu has a similar level of viability as mega slowbro - which is currently unranked - because of the very few specific niche it has in exchange of countless, crippling flaws. You might say the "boons" cannot be ignored, but the so-called-unique role mvenu compresses is hold back due to it adding more defensive flaws than it covers, meaning it will entirely depend on its teammates to make a defensive team together and thus cannot afford to fit in BO - again, it has to be built around.
I'll address all of these issues that you present, some valid and others not so much. First off, there exists a mixed bulk spread (which I won't give away here for the purposes of hiding my teams) that deals with both Marshadow and Xerneas. Also the moveset should always include GK, as it is main way of pressuring a good portion of the meta, any mon that is weak to it will take a substantial amount, while anything neutral will not be allowed to set up for free in front of venu. Sludge is completely passable as the things it hits are already beaten etc. I mention the last moveslot as changable depending on the team, because altho there may be sub users, the primary ones that I have seen in tour play (which is where I would be using this team) are mmence, arceus, zygarde and occasionally yveltal, where you would have to run some sort of mmence counter on your team, (rockceus or groundceus are preffered here) and zygard/arceus' sub is broken by GK.

Another issue you bring up is the Mega Evolution. In my opinion Mega evolution since USM has become a significantly less important aspect of teambuilding, as while Gengar is very potent it is not super splashable and MMence is good but its roles can often be found in other slots anyway. On many offense and Balance teams I have found myself forgoing a mega altogether to pick up some other threats, for example PDon/DuskMane/Marshadow/Yveltal/Xerneas/Arceus is a team comp that is somewhat common and very much viable which forgoes a mega altogether.

Now for your next issue, which deals with its viability against stall, I shall give you this replay which shows you the reason why its very good. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-697364927
So if you watch the entire replay, (this was a test match between myself and hyw for smogexhi, hyw being the best stall player of usm), and you see the momentum of the battle is shifted in his favor as he manages to slowly chip away at all my mons, which lack any sort of recovery, and the only mon he really allows to get weakened is Bliss. But then, after a couple times when Venu comes in, it gets the Leech on blissey and is able to heal both Xern and Yveltal into a range to take hits from Ho-oh. On top of this, Venu is able to consistently come in on a number of mons which include Defog Ho-oh, Lugia, and he lacks a true way of being able to kill it at any point in the game outside of PP Stall. As such it allows for a reliable pivot should I ever be presented in a bad situation, i.e. I just choice locked myself into Aroma on Xern or something similar. And importantly this game, It was able to PP Stall the Ho-oh out of Sacred Fires (many times Defog Ho-oh will forgo BB on stall) and made Arceus Ground a nonfactor. Although you could claim a similar thing be done by other mons, this isn't exactly true, as it is able to be Toxic Immune while maintaining a neutrality to Fire and providing the team with Leech Support. If you believe this to be niche, then so be it, but a similar situation applies in many stall/bulky matchups as long as you have some sort of breakers within the team. Not to mention, in this game I had not brought any anti-stall tech (I was experimenting with HP Fire, which I later deemed is a useless move), as if Venu was carrying Toxic or Knock, the game would have been much easier.

Now this is where I cede some points as to its weaknesses, obviously you aren't always going to get matched into no flying stab hooh or no flying stab yveltal, and those mons can generally come in for free on Venu, barring Toxic/Leech chip. However, it should also be noted that MVenu balance provides great reactive play with it being easy to slot in answers to pretty much everything within a team with MVenu barring maybe Duskmane, and it relies on you to play the game well and win 50/50s. Of course its weaknesses are glaring as a lot of common meta mons do beat it, like SD PDon, Ekiller, Hooh, Offensive Yveltal, Ray, Arc Flying, Wisp Hex Gar, mmence and ofc DM, however it should also be noted how many of those same mons are checked by Arceus Ground, and then you just need a couple of other slots to cover the remaining weaknesses. I don't mean to downplay MVenu's weaknesses in anyway, I recognize it is a mon only suited to a specific teamcomposition, however I feel that team composition is a very viable G1 team in a bo3 (in fact I have won many of my bo3s in ubers ssnl by opening this team against ppl like Edgar and Arifeen).

Now finally to try to make this as nonbiased as possible, let's compare it to Arceus Dragon which is in the same tier. Much like MVenu, running Arceus Dragon has a high opporunity cost since it is taking up an Arceus form (arguably more important than a mega, but lets just say they are of comparable value) Arceus Dragon will have to run Recover and Judge and the last two moves are there to help in specific matchups, and depending on what is chosen, it will lose to a similar amount of mons within the top of the via rankings. From what I have seen Arceus Dragon is normally running Defog and either of the status moves, and I assume that those 3 moves are the viable other 2 slots. Regardless of what it picks, it will lose to defensive Pogre Xerneas Magearna and Gothitelle, while depending on the set it can lose to variants of DM, Hooh, Arceus Fairy, Ferrothorn and Spdef Don. Further beyond this, the threats it is supposed to beat, can chose specific tech options to cripple it. The threats that each of these mons check are of similar, each one having a multitude of counters, I would say Arc-Drag is even more passive, however also has Defog for some more team support. If you notice, the situation is similar, both of these mons check a subset of the top tier, Arc Drag specifically offensive Pdons, mixed Ogre, MMence etc, and doesnt straight lose to stuff like Zygarde and Marsh, offering a soft check to them. Venu I've gone over already, but both of these mons also remain very passive vs. another portion of the meta. Then each provides valuable team support through status, potential healing, Defog, Toxic Immunity etc.

TL;DR
When making this comparison, I think it is fair to rank MVenu alongside Arceus Dragon, because they are mons of a similar calibur used in a similar playstyle. I would even argue that MVenu is better but that is perhaps too ambitious and part of my personal bias. So in general, I think it definitely has a lot of flaws, but also a lot of things going for it.
 
March update! With UPL right around the corner this lines up perfectly to get a "before and after" look at the meta between the past and UPL. Hopefully we can all expect to see some large metagame advancements with the hype of our biggest tour this year. Let's get straight to the point.

As for the council, Hack has been too busy to participate and will be stepping down for the time being. Cynara has joined the council!

Spreadsheet for this month is here.

March Update:

S-: Unranked >> Exists (above A+)

Yveltal: S >> S- (#1)
Mega Gengar: A+ >> S- (#2)
Marshadow: A+ >> S- (#3)
Ho-Oh: A >> A+ (above Zygarde-C)
Primal Kyogre: Rises in A (top of A)
Arceus-Dark: B >> B+ (bottom of B+)
Mega Mewtwo Y: Rises inside B (below Blissey)
Cloyster: B- > B (above Tyranitar)
Deoxys-S: B >> B- (above Celesteela)
Excadrill: B >> B- (above Skarmory)
Mewtwo: Rises inside C+ (top of C+)
Mega Venusaur: Unranked >> C+ (above Mega Diancie)
Palkia: C >> C+ (above Shuckle)
Landorus-T: C+ >> Unranked

Next update is aiming for UPL midseason, as ideally we want to update around this UPL's development. We hope you all enjoy the tournament!
 
March update! With UPL right around the corner this lines up perfectly to get a "before and after" look at the meta between the past and UPL. Hopefully we can all expect to see some large metagame advancements with the hype of our biggest tour this year. Let's get straight to the point.

As for the council, Hack has been too busy to participate and will be stepping down for the time being. Cynara has joined the council!

Spreadsheet for this month is here.

March Update:

S-: Unranked >> Exists (above A+)

Yveltal: S >> S- (#1)
Mega Gengar: A+ >> S- (#2)
Marshadow: A+ >> S- (#3)
Ho-Oh: A >> A+ (above Zygarde-C)
Primal Kyogre: Rises in A (top of A)
Arceus-Dark: B >> B+ (bottom of B+)
Mega Mewtwo Y: Rises inside B (below Blissey)
Cloyster: B- > B (above Tyranitar)
Deoxys-S: B >> B- (above Celesteela)
Excadrill: B >> B- (above Skarmory)
Mewtwo: Rises inside C+ (top of C+)
Mega Venusaur: Unranked >> C+ (above Mega Diancie)
Palkia: C >> C+ (above Shuckle)
Landorus-T: C+ >> Unranked

Next update is aiming for UPL midseason, as ideally we want to update around this UPL's development. We hope you all enjoy the tournament!
Yee C+ looks pretty good for MVenu. Better than B- in my opinion, that would be giving it too much of a boost. Also, kind of ironic to give Ho-oh a boost while also giving Pogre, Palkia and Cloyster one.
 
I liked seeing Mega Gengar and Marshadow going up to Rank S - I think now it's only going to increase their popularity a little more, about Yveltal I did not understand why the descent to S-.And about Mega Venu I also liked being in C +
 

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I just want to thank Smogon for creating an S- tier as I proposed, although Xern is not in it. But after a lot of playing, I've come to the conclusion that as for now A+ is just fine for it. Also thnx for dropping Yveltal to S- as I proposed because that previous ranking didn't reflect its viability precisely. I get the M-gar rise, that thing is stupidly potent with the drop of Goth, though I don't really get Marsh rising. Could someone explain?
btw I did nominate Xerneas to S- as opposed to Nayrz saying noone did. Check out my comment on page 3.
 
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Kyogre-primal A -> A+
I personally believe this because of how good max speed max spa is on it.
I use the move set Water Spout, ice beam, thunder, and origin pulse
This move set works for it because with the calm mind it doesn't do much to mons that counter it like Groudon-primal which you have to hope it misses one of the two precipes blades. with water spout, you can hit things much harder than origin pulse and when you get low you just switch to origin pulse. This allow you to ohko or 2hko mons that normally origin pulse cant ohko/2hko. Waterspout really hits a meta hard if switching into Groudon-primal. Then theres the coverage. It gets two great moves with thunder that can hit lugia somewhat well and ho-oh decently well and dooing major damage to yveltal. Ice beam allows it to 3hko Groudon-primal if max speed or 4hko it with max hp. (Although with 4hko it usually just switches)
 
Kyogre-primal A -> A+
I personally believe this because of how good max speed max spa is on it.
I use the move set Water Spout, ice beam, thunder, and origin pulse
This move set works for it because with the calm mind it doesn't do much to mons that counter it like Groudon-primal which you have to hope it misses one of the two precipes blades. with water spout, you can hit things much harder than origin pulse and when you get low you just switch to origin pulse. This allow you to ohko or 2hko mons that normally origin pulse cant ohko/2hko. Waterspout really hits a meta hard if switching into Groudon-primal. Then theres the coverage. It gets two great moves with thunder that can hit lugia somewhat well and ho-oh decently well and dooing major damage to yveltal. Ice beam allows it to 3hko Groudon-primal if max speed or 4hko it with max hp. (Although with 4hko it usually just switches)
Agreed. If you look at every meta-defining mon (A- to S+), it can destroy most without a boost and Primordial Sea and all 21 of them with a boost.

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 282-334 (92.7 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 573-675 (125.9 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna in Heavy Rain: 372-438 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Almost no special attacker in Uber can kill this thing with +1 Sp.Def, even when not investing in HP or Sp.Def.
252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-White Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Necrozma-Ultra Light That Burns the Sky vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 175-207 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO


I think Primal Kyogre should be at the top of A+. It might even make to the bottom of S-. Admit it, this thing is just so powerful.
 
Kyogre-primal A -> A+
While I don't have any problem with recognizing Primal Kyogre as a more threatening Pokémon itself, I am not quite sure if A+ is the right place for it just yet. Current place (top of A) seems okay to me.

The set you have mentioned (3 attacks + spout) isn't what makes Primal Kyogre so much threatening at this moment, it is the physical set that most teams have trouble dealing with. Special sets, while they seem to be good on paper, is hold by the fact that the most common Pokémon in the tier, Primal Groudon, simply prevents Primal Kyogre from spamming Origin Pulse by existing. Physical set, on the other hand, can deal with said threat much easier with Earthquake, which 2HKOs offensive variants.

Despite very limited switch-ins' available against Primal Kyogre in general the reason why I disagree with its rise to A+ is that while it excels in a role of wallbreaking, it doesn't provide team with much other utility. Simply talking about the fact that Water Spout / Origin Pulse / Ice Beam / Thunder threatens the majority of the metagame doesn't do the best job making persuasions about the rise. I would gladly make a civic argument with anyone who makes the same nomination about Primal Kyogre as long as they back up with a reasoning that justifies Primal Kyogre above or around the Pokémon currently listed in A+. Speaking of Pokémon in A+, I don't believe Primal Kyogre's viability should be considered parallel with them. Every Pokémon currently listed in A+ rank, just like Primal Kyogre, have a role or two they extremely excel at, and they have another strength by providing some key defensive utilities that allow them to be easily fit in common team archetypes - in Xerneas' case, being offensive check to Yveltal and Marshadow in offensive teams, Mega Salamence being one of the best pivots into Primal Groudon and one of the most relevant Ground-immune Pokémon in offensive team, Ho-Oh that can annoy anything that isn't called Zygarde-C or Rest Tyranitar while marginally checking around 1/3 of the tier, and Zygarde-C, which blanket checks essentially most physical attackers just by being fat and being one of the best status absorber.

Should we make a comparison with these A+ - ranked threats with Primal Kyogre, it turns out Primal Kyogre doesn't check anything in particular and fails to provide much defensive utility to the team (the two most relevant Fire-types have ways to 2HKO it). One may say Primal Kyogre's ability to consistently wallbreak somewhat compensates this, but again, the fact that the most common Pokémon in the tier neuters Primal Kyogre's general offensive capabilities holds it back from being extremely effective.

Supporting nom
Something I have noticed about your way of backing up claims is using calculations. You did similar when supporting Xerneas for higher rank, but realistically one wouldn't really switch a check into a threat after they boost; it is more than obvious that Ferrothorn should promptly switch into Primal Kyogre before it sets up CM and reaches the point where Origin Pulse with 2HKO. It is more than obvious that Xerneas and Magearna wouldn't switch into or try to revenge kill Primal Kyogre at +1 when they have a far better teammate called Primal Groudon. In general, it is obvious that you wouldn't switch in a check to a setup sweeper after it has boosted. If you understand Necrozma-DM doesn't switch into Geomancy Xerneas at +2 but it reactively switches into Xerneas as it has entered the field, you wouldn't make claims that say 'when boosted, this threat is essentially unstoppable', which is not so widely accepted. Apart from your reasoning with firepower, it isn't impossible to stop Primal Kyogre at +1. You wouldn't use unsavory Pokemon like Kyurem-W, Shaymin-S, and Arceus-Electric to stop it. CM Primal Kyogre is outsped by significant portion of the tier; this is worsened by the fact that it has to run SubCM majority of the time, meaning it can't afford to invest in Speed but will have to invest in HP to make 101 HP Substitutes, meaning it wouldn't take a hell of a journey to revenge kill Primal Kyogre in the meta where powerful physical threats that can bypass Special Defense boosts from CM are ubiquitous.
 
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While I don't have any problem with recognizing Primal Kyogre as a more threatening Pokémon itself, I am not quite sure if A+ is the right place for it just yet. Current place (top of A) seems okay to me.

The set you have mentioned (3 attacks + spout) isn't what makes Primal Kyogre so much threatening at this moment, it is the physical set that most teams have trouble dealing with. Special sets, while they seem to be good on paper, is hold by the fact that the most common Pokémon in the tier, Primal Groudon, simply prevents Primal Kyogre from spamming Origin Pulse by existing. Physical set, on the other hand, can deal with said threat much easier with Earthquake, which 2HKOs offensive variants.

Despite very limited switch-ins' available against Primal Kyogre in general the reason why I disagree with its rise to A+ is that while it excels in a role of wallbreaking, it doesn't provide team with much other utility. Simply talking about the fact that Water Spout / Origin Pulse / Ice Beam / Thunder threatens the majority of the metagame doesn't do the best job making persuasions about the rise. I would gladly make a civic argument with anyone who makes the same nomination about Primal Kyogre as long as they back up with a reasoning that justifies Primal Kyogre above or around the Pokémon currently listed in A+. Speaking of Pokémon in A+, I don't believe Primal Kyogre's viability should be considered parallel with them. Every Pokémon currently listed in A+ rank, just like Primal Kyogre, have a role or two they extremely excel at, and they have another strength by providing some key defensive utilities that allow them to be easily fit in common team archetypes - in Xerneas' case, being offensive check to Yveltal and Marshadow in offensive teams, Mega Salamence being one of the best pivots into Primal Groudon and one of the most relevant Ground-immune Pokémon in offensive team, Ho-Oh that can annoy anything that isn't called Zygarde-C or Rest Tyranitar while marginally checking around 1/3 of the tier, and Zygarde-C, which blanket checks essentially most physical attackers just by being fat and being one of the best status absorber.

Should we make a comparison with these A+ - ranked threats with Primal Kyogre, it turns out Primal Kyogre doesn't check anything in particular and fails to provide much defensive utility to the team (the two most relevant Fire-types have ways to 2HKO it). One may say Primal Kyogre's ability to consistently wallbreak somewhat compensates this, again, the fact that the most common Pokémon in the tier neuters Primal Kyogre's general offensive capabilities hold it back from being extremely effective.


Something I have noticed about your way of backing up claims is using calculations. You did similar when supporting Xerneas for higher rank, but realistically one wouldn't really switch a check into a threat after they boost; it is more than obvious that Ferrothorn should promptly switch into Primal Kyogre before it sets up CM and reaches the point where Origin Pulse with 2HKO. It is more than obvious that Xerneas and Magearna wouldn't switch into or try to revenge kill Primal Kyogre at +1 when they have a far better teammate called Primal Groudon. In general, it is obvious that you wouldn't switch in a check to a setup sweeper after it has boosted. If you understand Necrozma-DM doesn't switch into Geomancy Xerneas at +2 but it reactively switches into Xerneas as it has entered the field, you wouldn't make claims that say 'when boosted, this threat is essentially unstoppable', which is not so widely accepted. Apart from your reasoning with firepower, it isn't impossible to stop Primal Kyogre at +1. You wouldn't use unsavory Pokemon like Kyurem-W, Shaymin-S, and Arceus-Electric to stop it. CM Primal Kyogre is outsped by significant portion of the tier; this is worsened by the fact that it has to run SubCM majority of the time, meaning it can't afford to invest in Speed but will have to invest in HP to make 101 HP Substitutes, meaning it wouldn't take a hell of a journey to revenge kill Primal Kyogre in the meta where powerful physical threats that can bypass Special Defense boosts from CM are ubiquitous.
Guess that is true. But what about with the physical set? Would that be able to make it to A+?
 
Guess that is true. But what about with the physical set? Would that be able to make it to A+?
Despite very limited switch-ins' available against Primal Kyogre in general the reason why I disagree with its rise to A+ is that while it excels in a role of wallbreaking, it doesn't provide team with much other utility... I don't believe Primal Kyogre's viability should be considered parallel with them. Every Pokémon currently listed in A+ rank, just like Primal Kyogre, have a role or two they extremely excel at, and they have another strength by providing some key defensive utilities that allow them to be easily fit in common team archetypes... Should we make a comparison with these A+ - ranked threats with Primal Kyogre, it turns out Primal Kyogre doesn't check anything in particular and fails to provide much defensive utility to the team (the two most relevant Fire-types have ways to 2HKO it)....
One may say Primal Kyogre's ability to consistently wallbreak somewhat compensates this, but again, the fact that the most common Pokémon in the tier neuters Primal Kyogre's general offensive capabilities holds it back from being extremely effective.
 
Dawn-Wings Necrozma C- to bottom of C-/D
When news was released about this thing along with the stats, I wanted to love it because it was based off of Lunala. Now, I understand it's uselessness. Sure, it could transform into Ultra, but that is a different mon altogether. A stupid ability for it's weaknesses, both of which are 4x. Ridiculously low base 77 speed, and almost no coverage moves. The only thing it has to counter dark types is Signal Beam, which is useless to Tyranitar and Muk-Alola, the best Pursuit users in the tier. As for Trick Room, it will be killed before it ever gets a chance to set it up. Mons in D have no real niche, right? Neither does this thing. A Mega Lucario switch-in? Outclassed by Marshadow and Ghostceus. This thing is literally useless. Just wastes another slot on your team.

As for Ultra, DM is much better to transform. Who would replace DM just for Moongeist Beam??
 
Dawn-Wings Necrozma C- to bottom of C-/D
When news was released about this thing along with the stats, I wanted to love it because it was based off of Lunala. Now, I understand it's uselessness. Sure, it could transform into Ultra, but that is a different mon altogether. A stupid ability for it's weaknesses, both of which are 4x. Ridiculously low base 77 speed, and almost no coverage moves. The only thing it has to counter dark types is Signal Beam, which is useless to Tyranitar and Muk-Alola, the best Pursuit users in the tier. As for Trick Room, it will be killed before it ever gets a chance to set it up. Mons in D have no real niche, right? Neither does this thing. A Mega Lucario switch-in? Outclassed by Marshadow and Ghostceus. This thing is literally useless. Just wastes another slot on your team.

As for Ultra, DM is much better to transform. Who would replace DM just for Moongeist Beam??
Dusk Mane has 77 Speed too, in which it can use Autotomize. DW can do the same thing too
 
Dusk Mane has 77 Speed too, in which it can use Autotomize. DW can do the same thing too
Set up Autotomize, sure. Then what, do some 20% on an incoming Muk? Or get forced out by Drakceus? It can't do jack even when it sets up with Autotomize. Also, why compare the two? Might have the same pokedex number, but the usefulness is just unexplainable. One might argue that when it does set up, Deoxys and Marshadow are screwed. But they most likely have some very powerful friends to back them up. Also, forgetting that:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 351-413 (104.7 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
One might also state that people might invest in HP or Defense. Then what about Stealth Rock?
 
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