Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[Heldinho]

This comment above was certainly the most hilarious rsrs, on Kyogre in A + I agree because because of their good sets both the physical and the special or even the defensive are effective, not to mention that POgre is a good wallbreaker (if not one of the best ) and fits very well into many teams currently

 

[orch]

damn, this is what people must've felt when i suggested ho-oh for c+ in sm. (i still stand by it)

 

[Fire Eyes]

Serious nomination here:

Wobbuffett - Unranked ----> C- or even C/C+

I did a RMT post recently showcasing that Wobba still has a small, but viable niche in Ubers. It's main competition is Mega Gengar and Goth as a shadow-tagger, but it still has some positive traits over those 2. We all know what Wobba does in ubers. It traps certain threats, locks them into a move with Encore, then gives a team-mate a chance to set-up or revenge kill. It still has a page on the Smogon Dex but I think it could at least be ranked. It's more useful than anything in D-rank and on par with the C-/C ranks.

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 204 HP / 32 Def / 252 SpD or EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD (since it's better at tanking special hits anyway)
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm Nature
- Encore
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Safeguard

-Doesnt take the mega slot, so you could run Mega-Mence or Luke or Blaziken along side it (havn't tried using Mega-Gengar + Wobba since XY)
-One of the only pokemon on Hyper offense teams that can tank a +2 moonblast from Xern
-Gives Counter-Coat and Encore support for set-up sweepers
-Base 190Hp means it has more bulk than Gengar
-More viable on HO teams than Goth
-Safeguard support

Obviously it still gets shut-down by common threats like Yveltal and Marshadow, but it still has a small niche as a semi-bulky shadow-tagger for HO teams that dont use Gengar. With Custap berry still not around, it's not as good as it was in gen5-6, but it still has all the features and the support moves to make it a niche choice.

Since Wobba is unranked, I will give some replays. (most of these are from my RMT)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-707321819 (turn 30, removes Zygarde)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-707799824 (turn 16, traps Fairy Arceus and gives safeguard support for P-Don)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-708747494 (turn 4, prevents an early sweep from Naganadel)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-708793862 (turn 11, Wobba removes Mag. Turn 19, Wobba gives P-Don a chance to win the game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-709252302 (turn 6, Wobba traps Geo-Xern to give P-Don a free turn of set-up)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-709256730 (turn 9, Wobba revenge kills Xern at +2, something that neither Goth nor Gengar can do)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-705400468 (traps Fairy Arceus on Turn 3)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-705464453 (traps Ditto, Mewtwo X and Water Arceus against this guy's unusual stall team)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-722628182 (traps Water Arceus turn 19, to give Mega-Luke a chance to finish the game)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-763570004

 

[TayyibZ]

Would this be a good one for Zygarde-C?

Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 HP / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Note:
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 400-472 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Chessking345]

You can't always guarantee you would be in 100% form and even if you are it is pretty rare that you would be at 100% health. Also Marshadow easily beats this set by stealing those boosts and starting a counter sweep. If you are looking for a bulky sweeper try Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves, Rest, Dragon Dance with hazard support to beat sash Marshadow. Otherwise use the standard bulky spread, without defence investment you don't check the strong physical attackers you are meant to check as well, such as Offensive SD PDon.

 

[Katy]

Would this be a good one for Zygarde-C?

Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 HP / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Note:
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 400-472 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I would maybe suggest to post THIS in the uber set discussion, this is the Viability Ranking thread after all, where the VR of the mons in the current metagame are being discussed. No offense tho, but maybe post this not in the VR thread :)
I thinks this https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usm-ubers-sets-discussion.3621030/ is a better place to discuss this set and get informations out of a single set. :)

 

[Skuntank3800]

Well i going to nominated a mon's i think it might be good or not, although some people will disagree after I understand your opinion.

I nominate Kartana UR -> D/C-

The set

Kartana @ Grassium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike
- Swords Dance

Kartana is very monstrous on physical attack and he have a poor Special Defense which can be fragile but he surprise Primal Kyogre with Leaf Blade when he does not have a set up or Primal Groudon or Yveltal (Life Orb) with Bloom Doom after his set up by Sword's Dance, with Smart Strike at +2 he can killed the Big Fairy type like Xerneas or Arceus Fairy well after there is the HP fire, Fire Punch, ... that can the weakened easily. For the Dark Type i choose Sacred Sword in case to Tyranitar but he is no longer known as before, Despite due to do that Kartana is slow in front of Mega Lucario, Marshardow, Deoxys Attack, ... after if the team is so much for prepared and at this moment we set up with Sword's Dance the opponents this get a sweep. With little Argument i think i can surprised most the player after i understand that some will not agree with due to do with it poor Special Defense, well i likes this mon's but he can be outspeed by Mega Lucario, Marshardow, ...

Some Calculation.

Calcs

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 32 HP / 64 Def Kyogre-Primal: 386-456 (110.6 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 362-428 (103.7 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 484-570 (120 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 541-637 (158.6 - 186.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 382-450 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 612-722 (148.9 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 440-518 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Fairy: 474-560 (106.7 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Fairy: 474-560 (106.7 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Replays

Replay Smogon

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-747168215 ---> Yveltal was OHKO by Bloom Doom.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-747280296 ---> turnaround against a Trick Room team.

i hope that it will please you thanks for seeing my nomination.

 

[Havens]

Mega Diancie: C+ -> B- (perhaps top of B- or below Chansey)

I feel as if Mega Diancie deserves to be higher up on the list; while not as commanding as it was in previous gens, especially now with the inclusion of bulky Steels in DM Necrozma and Magearna for instance, it's one of those anti-meta picks that still finds promise in checking the same utility and offensive presences such as Ho-oh, Yveltal, Mega Sableye, and Lugia, that have grown in popularity this generation. While that might sound blatantly obvious, it also finds success against metagame titans in Zygarde-C and Gothitelle; with the former being threatened from an offensive standpoint, to the latter being outright stopped from applying its stallbreaking pressure thanks to Magic Bounce. It's also one of the few offensive Stealth Rockers that I can see, outside of PDon and Excadrill, that doesn't have to be used as lead fodder or is critical to almost every match. It has its faults though, losing to anything has Steel coverage or is faster/bulky enough to live a hit and KO it out. However, I definitely wouldn't say that Diancie deserves to be this low by any means.

Some examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-705673980
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-745549466

 

[Cookees]

Hi, I'd like to nominate:

Buzzwole for C+ -> B

I'm not really an Ubers expert, but I honestly believe this Pokemon is heavily underrated after some playtesting. Few other Pokemon can reliably check and defeat Marshadow, M-Lucario, Zygarde, SD Arceus, M-Scizor, Tyranitar, M-Gyarados and Necrozma-DM (without Photon Geyser). Forgot to save replays unfortunately, so don't have much to show.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-747236328 Buzzwole Checking Arceus and M-Lucario
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-745158077 Around Turn 14, Marshadow can't really touch Buzzwole, and takes Rocky Recoil.

The set I run http://pokepast.es/50511ed03506166b

 

[TheSnoozySea]

Zygarde-C: A+ --> S-

I don't know if this have been brought up before in the nominations but lately offensive Zygarde sets have relatively good setup sweepers. It has immense bulk for longevity and an item slot for Groundium Z to provide even more offensive power and substitute also provide good status shield and helps it set up against more defensive mons. Practically, it can punch huge holes into teams rather easily and open holes for itself or teammates to sweep. Also almost nothing can switch in safely into an offensive Zygarde once it sets up subtitute or so (Giratina and Defensive Zygarde gets phased and most of the tier either gets 2hko by +1 Tarrows or KO by +1 Trage) , which is rather easy since it can find opportunities to switch into defensive mons. Also its good not just because of itself . its also good because of how well it does with support like t-spikes, spikes, Mgar and even Goth, nothing can use those support as well as it can as it can cheese through all of its checks with team's help. With the ever presence of Primal Groudon and Dusk Mane Necrozma and the combination of these two mons in teams ever common, Zygarde is able to find even more opportunity to set up on them. Mono- attacking sacred fire defensive ho oh and Pdon without roar is literally setup foddle for Offensive Zygarde. Defensive Zygarde is also great but I have a feeling that this VR is just ranking it by its defensive capabilities and not its offensive set.

Here are just some dmg calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 421-496 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 385-454 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO(offensive pogre)
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Kyogre-Primal: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock(defensive pogre)
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 270-318 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Ropalme1914]

Agree with Zygarde-C to S-. I know that this could be pretty controversial (like any nom to S tiers), but Zygarde-C is just too good and versatile right now. Defensive sets still are as good as ever, but DD are better than they ever were, with each team having its own variation. You can see it running DD, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed, Substitute, Toxic, Glare, Thousand Waves, Protect, Dragon Tail and other moves while also having lots of item options like Groundium Z, Dragonium Z, Earth Plate, Leftovers, etc. On UPL, it has been at least top 6 on usage on every round, with only one of them having below 50% winrate (with the other 5 rounds having 60% or higher), showing that its power is not only backed up by theory. Not only very few Pokémon can actually counter it, but even those that can have to watch out for Dtail on the switch, risking giving even more setup opportunities to Zygarde. Also, it probably is the only setup sweeper that does not care phazing outside Z-Geo Xerneas, and Z-Geo comes with other risks like the amount of turns it needs to setup. It can simply adapt to almost any threat in the metagame to the point that most of the time the way you deal with Zygarde is when they sack it to deal damage to some important Pokémon of yours. I would even say that it should be above Marshadow, but I have no problem with it being below it.

 

[Cynara]

Since UPL is almost over, I feel like it would finally be sufficient to post my thoughts on the viability of some Pokemon in the metagame, after the past couple months and UPL, the meta has developed a bit, I don't post much in VR Threads but I feel like I should publicly give my views and some nominations.

Zygarde from A+ to S

While it has been used in the past for the defensive rest sets. Zygarde is arguably one of the top defining offensive threats in the metagame at the moment, with the most common set being Dragon Dance, so my main focus of the nomination will be based around that set. The metagame has been moulded in such a way that it's actually perfect for Dragon Dance Zygarde to exploit it very effectively. Zygarde is also able a various array of items on offensive sets aside from Groundium-Z such as leftovers, Dragonium-Z and lastly, Earth Plate, an item that has been gaining traction in UPL, due to its ability to still have a worthwhile damage output and create freedom of the Z-Crystal slot, allowing it to be used more efficiently on common team partners such as Lunala or Necrozma-DM.

The Dragon Dance set is extremely versatile being able to adapt it’s move slots for any team, such as Dragon Tail, Glare, Thousand Waves, Coil, Outrage and rest. The most common being DD + Dragon Tail due to its utility and being able to phaze mons before they phaze Zygarde such as Lugia. It is also capable of taking advantage of hazard stacks such as Spikes or Toxic Spikes, Spikes + D-Tail Zygarde is therefore quite potent and a technique players such as Terracotta have been utilising and getting a myriad of successes with, in tournaments such as Seasonal runs and UPL.

Glare has also seen a fair deal of usage on teams, Glare combined with Dragon Dance is really strong against offense teams, Glare provides good speed control against common setup sweepers that would otherwise provide troublesome to standardised Bulky Offences, and help hinder amount of damage Pokémon such as double dance Necrozma-DM do to them. Glare is also very potent when partnered with Hex staples such as Mega Gengar due to the plethora of Pokemon it is able to status, such as Primal Groudon and Support Arceus. Glare can also give Zygarde / team mates free turns and increase Zygarde's likelyhood of pulling a sweep in scenarios it otherwise wouldn’t be able to.

Niche sets are also making an appearance, one example of such is Thousand Waves which gives zygarde a unique ability of luring in and trapping common switch ins such as support Arceus’ and paired with Gothitelle this can be very threatening as it can guarantee the traps of the most common zygarde answers with how team architecture is being constructed at the moment, such as the aforementioned support Arceus. Thousand Waves Zygarde is also capable of operating on its own to trap passive pokemon and set up on them and continue to rest until it obtains +6 in boosts, a good example of where this set has been showcased is the game 1 of Magsy vs GunnerRohan in week 1 of UPL: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-368110

Factoring in stealth rock there are very little answers to a +6 Zygarde besides max Defense Zygarde Complete which is quite uncommon on teams these days, if given the potential to trap and set up, this set can spell endgame against particular archetypes such as balance with steels such as Ferrothorn.

Outside of Dragon Dance, Coil Zygarde is also effective with the right team support, though quite niche, Coil can be literally unbreakable once all it’s checks have been removed due to immense bulk it naturally provides and is able to function as a late-game winning condition against bulkier teams.

Taking in the versatility of what Zygarde is capable of running, the immense bulk even without investment and the complete forme also makes Zygarde a formidable setup sweeper, despite it’s mediocre offensive stats, which can be patched with Groundium-Z or strong wallbreaker team options such as CM Lunala for bulkier builds and only having to rely on Thousand Arrows for un-resisted coverage which is what also contributes to its versatility. Few Pokémon are able to take it out, and being extremely difficult for offense teams to revenge-kill, making it a go to pokemon for dealing with offense archetypes and making offense move away from the usual conventions of dealing with threats and running techs such as HP Ice Primal Groudon or bulky offense being forced to run a very reliable answer such as a support arceus running Ice Beam / Fairy Arceus in itself or even Scarf Xerneas as it is the only Pokemon that is able to revenge kill +1 Zygarde efficiently, which is also becoming a noticeable glue to some bulky offenses/balances. This factor of durability is what makes it just as threatening as GeoXern Necrozma-DM and Swords Dance Groundceus as set up sweepers, as it is able to accumulate multiple boosts and outlast most set up sweepers throughout games.

Considering all these traits combined, I feel it has all the attributes to be a meta defining Pokémon and has already forced the metagame to be shaped around with dealing with it and the sheer bulk and versatility, being able to run a plethora of sets both offensively and defensively feel it should deserve a place in S under Necrozma-DM.

Lunala from B+ to A- (below Rayquaza)

Lunala is arguably one of the strongest wallbreakers in the metagame at the very moment under Kyogre, Zygarde + CM Lunala is one of the most effective offensive cores to consider right now as Arceus-Dark with Judgment and Ice Beam is the only Pokémon that can somewhat reliably deal with this pairing.

Lunala’s wallbreaking power is insane and Ghost is a great typing for a wallbreaker, Ghost-types have always been very potent in the metagame and Lunala is no exception to this rule. Ghost resistances are hard to conclude on in the teambuilder these days, Yveltal usually being the Pokémon of choice and Arceus-Dark on balance, which is seeing a trend of usage recently.

Lunala can be compared to Marshadow somewhat, as Lunala is comparable in the ascept of how it threatens bulkier teams is similar to how Marshadow can be a strong threat to offense teams and both are strong ghost-types to consider in their own respective rights.

Lunala also has a variety of coverage moves such as Ice Beam, Psyshock and Focus Blast that it’s able to equip itself with to deal with Pokémon that would otherwise wall it such as Blissey and this attributes make it one of the most menacing threats to Stall and Balance.

+1 Spa Lunala combined with Lunalium Z is able to break most common defensive Pokémon, such as Support Arceus, Defensive Ho-Oh at full is the only thing that is able to survive the Z-Move, Yveltal can’t switch into the Z-Move and fears taking Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. Players have been also adapting techs such as Fightium-Z (which has been used in UPL here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-372504 ) which still does the job and is able to lure an unsuspecting Arceus-Dark and OHKO it at +1 with All Out Pummeling from Focus Blast and is still capable of performing its role as Moongeist Beam after a Calm Mind boost is still threatening to a considerable amount of Pokémon.

Calcs

+1 252 SpA Lunala Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 856-1008 (119.8 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Lunala Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 435-513 (97.9 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Lunala Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 288-339 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although Lunala has a mediocre speed tier, it is still ideal for the role it performs outspeeding everything at and below, Max speed base 90’s such as Jolly Primal Groudon, though this means it requires support from team options to help deal with offense archetypes, similar to Kyogre it can force at least one trade against offense on it’s own.

All these traits considered, they make Lunala a strong choice for offenses to consider as it can force defensive threats to fold to its immense power and this creates space for team members to set-up and sweep due to its sheer efficiency of removing or severely weakening their checks, while helping out Lunala with it’s matchup against offenses, making GeoXern, Rock Polish Primal Groudon and Zygarde strong options to consider.

Arceus-Ground from A to A+ (below Mega Salamence)

While Arceus-Ground is as threatening as ever; current metagame trends mean Arceus-Ground is able to perform with more versatility, with the Swords Dance set and support being effective as before, Calm Mind Arceus-Ground has attracted quite a bit of traction recently, due to surge of Zygarde Bulky Offenses and Hyper Offenses being almost steamrolled single handedly by this set, the decline in Ho-Oh usage also makes it more effective as before.

Being able to be an immediate answer to Dragon Dance Zygarde along with the common offense staples such as Primal Groudon + Dusk Mane cores makes it a strong choice for teams, it is able to set up on a plethora of Pokémon such as Life Orb Yveltal, which isn’t able to out damage recover after one Calm Mind boost. The effectiveness of this set can be evidenced mainly in Serial Ekiller vs Terracotta: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-745497699 however, it has been used numerous times before throughout UPL, but I feel this replay truly explifies what the set is capable of and the consideration of inclusion of multiple offensive sets Arceus-Ground is able to utilise in the current metagame.

Yveltal from S- to A+ (below Mega Salamence)

Yveltal is something I’ve been considering nominating from a move down the viability rankings for a while, Fairy types are becoming increasingly becoming a stronger presence in the metagame, and this is troublesome for Yveltal such as Arceus-Fairy and Xerneas along with Magearna starting to make a small presence on Bulky offense teams with techs such as Choice Specs. These changes to team structures mean Yveltal is increasingly becoming more linear, as the Scarf set struggles against common defensive backbones such as Fairy + Support Arceus / Ho-oh + support Arceus or standalone Pokémon such as Arceus-Fairy, meaning most Yveltal are moving towards Life Orb sets for the most consistency and ability to deal with defensive backbones. Durable fairies still can cause Life orb some issues. Scarf Yveltal can’t also handle the threats it’s supposed to check very well at all, such as SD Arceus and Marshadow, as Yveltal is unable to switch into them, so they are getting at least one kill in exchange, and also means the set needs to be kept considerably healthy to achieve its role.

Xerneas being the dominant fairy for bulky offense teams that accommodate a support Arceus such as Water or Dark Arceus, is another troublesome factor and is able to be a strong stop any offensive Yveltal. Xerneas is able to do what Scarf Yveltal does, but better, while providing support such as Aromatherapy to remove status or Defog to remove hazards for these kind of teams and this creates more freedom in the teambuilder.

These are just my thoughts on the Pokémon I feel are worthy of moving in the viability rankings, where they have been showcased recently and I hope to see some discussion and input on these nominations.

 

[TheAuraUser]

Agree with Zygarde-C to S-.

Zygarde is just so good both offensively and defensively, it has Thousand Arrows spam and Glare sets, DDance Outrage, SubCoil+Toxic, RestTalk, Groundium/Dragonium Z. With DDance up it can even OHKO Xern and Marsh after a Close Combat Def & SpDef drop. It only loses to a Specs set on Xern unless SubCoil Toxic. Overall it's a great mon, threatens a large amount of the meta, that deserves to be same rank as Marsh, M-Geng and Yveltal.

Disagree with Buzzwole C+ --> B.
Buzzwole sure is underrated, but it's not deserving of a B rank. It loses hard to any faster(and bulkier) flying type, M Geng, Xern, Goth, and of course Pogre and Pdon. It loses hard to all the B ranks like Giratina and Mew2 Y, only providing a winning matchup against TTar and maybe Blissey. Of course, it gets Fell Stinger and Leech Life, so maybe a Fell Stinger set might work. But it loses so hard to many things(just like Heracross before it got it's mega) that I think it should not rise, or if it really needs to, go to B-. Even then, Lele in B- OHKOs with Moonblast and Celesteela just straight up walls it.

 

[TheAuraUser]

I would like to nominate hydreigon to be added to the viability rankings. I don't have a specific rank in mind and am unclear about the methodology which results in each Pokemon's position, so I will analyse Hydreigon and its position in the metagame (or potential position?) and then compare its utility relative to other certain Pokemon that are ranked. At the outset, I would like to note a few key qualities of hydreigon: (1) it's dark typing; (2) it's dragon typing in conjunction with levitate; and (3) its access to defog. The role I would envisage for hydreigon is in a similar position as that which is currently occupied by giratina-o and, less commonly, (mega) latias: a check to primal groudon which also defogs on primal groudon. However, I believe it holds specific advantages over both. Starting with giratina-o, as I understand it, a large component of what makes giratina-o good relative to other p-don answers is its ability to check most groudon sets whilst exerting significant offensive pressure on groudon in return. A second quality of giratina is it's positive matchup vs goth and invulnerability to trapping in general. However, despite these significant positives, I think a recognised issue for giratina is both its lack of a reliable recovery move and it's inability to hold an item, the second exacerbating the first. Moreover, with the much increased popularity of special groudon sets (fire-blast/ eruption/ overheat), giratina-o seems to struggle significantly more than in days gone by:

252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Giratina-Origin in Harsh Sunshine: 164-193 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Giratina-Origin in Harsh Sunshine: 223-263 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In comparison, Hydreigon whilst not sharing the same BST (although it is by no means a slouch in that category) does get access to a reliable recovery move, roost; shares a similarity positive matchup against trappers (although there really is little such thing as a positive matchup vs mega-gar for anything less than 130 speed and not a ghost type, a mon which imo is patently and comically uncompetive and broken, but anyway...); and does get to hold an item. Potential items on Hydreigon, of course, vary, but I think a z-move could potentially augment this role of 'defogging answer to p-don which exerts significant offensive pressure in return'. Furthermore, whilst Hydreigon does naturally take this hits harder than gira-o, could as a function of its speed tier actually fare better than gira-o, threatening through offensive pressure. Moreover, as quoted above, giratina-o actually gets 2HKO'd on the switch into eruption groudon so any simple argument centring on hydreigon's relative frailty seems slightly unconvincing. The calcs for uninvested hydreigon are as follows:

252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Harsh Sunshine: 179-211 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Harsh Sunshine: 244-288 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In return, z-draco from hydriegon runs as follows:

252 SpA Hydreigon Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 144 SpD Groudon-Primal: 289-342 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


Overall, then, I believe hydreigon can be understood as a midpoint between mega-Latias and giratina-o, largely retaining the benefits of each without sharing any their aforementioned significant weaknesses. A final point I would make in favour of hydreigon, less specific and less precisely delineated than those before but I think no less relevant for it, is the agency it gives a player. Whilst all three of the mentioned Pokemon are by no means super passive and this is partly why they are favoured, I think there is a lot to gained from appropriating typically offensive mons into defensive positions in USUM, where there are so many threats, not all of which are envisionable, many of whom get out of hand with free turns. Being able to dictate play , the difference between being passive/assertive, it seems to me is very valuable indeed. One of the criticisms hydreigon has always been subjected to is its apparently awkward speed tier of 98; missing out on a whole host running at 100, but I think for the Ubers tier 98 is relatively impressive, if only missing out on xern/ yv by one. To be clear, I wouldn't argue that Hydreigon is the best mon out and suitable for every team: (1) it is relatively frail for the role I have described; (2) it certainly still invites in dangerous fairy types, but even this weaknesses has been bandaged if not healed by the advent of necrozma dusk mane: a cycle through xern is not as threatening as it once was and can even be an opportunity to set rocks etc.

!

Honestly, I disagree with your points on Hydreigon. Hydreigon currently resides in UU. It does not carve a niche for itself in the Ubers meta, being outclassed by Giratina-O and Latias-M, with its speed tier lacking too. Sure, it’s Draco Meteors are powerful, but Giratina-O, Dialga and Palkia(with Spacial Rend) do that better with more power. The only niche I can think of for Hydreigon would be a fairy lure—involving the fairy-damage reducing berry and a bait switch in, for Hydreigon to spam Flash Cannon. But even Specs Hydreigon can’t OHKO Xern, While even through berry-reducing damage Xern OHKOs or sets up, leaving room for your team to be swept. Same with Magearna.

 

[Vengeance417]

Honestly, I disagree with your points on Hydreigon. Hydreigon currently resides in UU. It does not carve a niche for itself in the Ubers meta, being outclassed by Giratina-O and Latias-M, with its speed tier lacking too. Sure, it’s Draco Meteors are powerful, but Giratina-O, Dialga and Palkia(with Spacial Rend) do that better with more power. The only niche I can think of for Hydreigon would be a fairy lure—involving the fairy-damage reducing berry and a bait switch in, for Hydreigon to spam Flash Cannon. But even Specs Hydreigon can’t OHKO Xern, While even through berry-reducing damage Xern OHKOs or sets up, leaving room for your team to be swept. Same with Magearna.

While I agree that Hydreigon shouldn't be ranked, it shouldn't be because it's in a lower tier. Blissey also resides in UU yet it's currently B rank in the Ubers VR. Smeargle is PU, yet it happens to be B- as well.

Besides, that niche you mention isn't feasible. Every single viable Fairy-type in Ubers can OHKO Hydreigon through Roseli Berry, even without offensive investment.

calcs

0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Hydreigon: 380-450 (116.9 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Hydreigon: 330-390 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Hydreigon: 372-440 (114.4 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Anyways, I also agree with Zygarde-C going to S- rank. Everyone who's nommed this Pokemon basically summed everything up, but there's barely anything this Pokemon CAN'T do amazingly right now. DD variants are god-tier and defensive sets haven't wavered in viability, either. Anyone who team builds in Ubers has to account for this thing, and it's a perfect time for Zygarde-C to run rampant with Necrozma-DM being everywhere and keeping Xerneas and Arceus-Fairy in check.

 

[TheAuraUser]

While I agree that Hydreigon shouldn't be ranked, it shouldn't be because it's in a lower tier. Blissey also resides in UU yet it's currently B rank in the Ubers VR. Smeargle is PU, yet it happens to be B- as well.

Besides, that niche you mention isn't feasible. Every single viable Fairy-type in Ubers can OHKO Hydreigon through Roseli Berry, even without offensive investment.

calcs

0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Hydreigon: 380-450 (116.9 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Hydreigon: 330-390 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Hydreigon: 372-440 (114.4 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes, I meant that niche wasn’t feasible. I was just trying to think of one. Being stuck between Latias-M and Giratina-O, even without sharing weakness(they’re all weak to Fairy) means Hydreig’s outclassed by both of them. Also, I’m just mentioning Hydreigon in UU. Blissey has a niche as a Special wall, thus finding use in Ubers. Smeargle has the gimmick of learning every move in the game(with reason). It’s because of their niche/gimmicks that they find use in Ubers. Hydreigon doesn’t have any notable niches.

 

[Serial]

Ultra Necrozma: A- to A

Ultra Necrozma benefits from the dominance of Dusk Mane, allowing it to prey on opponents assumptions and claim surprise KOs, sweeps or revenge kills with a well timed Ultra Burst, transforming into an entirely different Pokemon with a different set of checks. Even when Ultra is suspected, many common teams are forced to go into their checks for Dusk Mane and lose them to Ultra (eg Pdon, POgre and Ho-Oh) because common Ultra checks (Scarf Xern, Marshadow, Mgar) cannot switch into pre-bursted DM at all, and if it does turn out to be DM then giving away a free double dance often just ends the game.

Offensively, Ultra Necrozma is one of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, and is able to pick and choose its defensive checks with various Neuroforce boosted coverage moves or powerful STABs. Ultra Necrozma is able to outspeed and take advantage of common Dusk Mane checks such as Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre and Ho-Oh, with its different primary STAB and Neuroforce-boosted coverage. Common answers to SD Ultra Necrozma on more defensive teams such as Mega Sableye and Arceus-Dark can also be broken through with Outrage and a small amount of chip, which is often easy to force in practice.

Defensively, Ultra brings with it a reduced vulnerability to common Ground-type moves, as well as Fire and Water, while still being able to maintain the perks of Dusk Mane's typing and bulk if necessary, letting it situationally check a huge range of threatening Pokemon, ranging from both Primals, to Steels to Fairies, being able to survive a powerful attack by choosing its typing, before hitting back hard. The access to DM's typing and bulk, and the ability to run various moves like Sunsteel Strike, Stone Edge and Outrage on its Swords Dance set to check or break different threats also gives teams with Ultra a lot of flexibility when building, and the viability of its Calm Mind set grants it an additional level of versatility.

Although Ultra is prone to revenge killing, it can easily claim a KO on a common DM switchin before being forced out. The ubiquity of Dusk Mane also means an opponent could have already sacked their Ultra check, expecting DM, allowing Ultra to sweep. Even when forced out, many checks such as Scarf Xern are easy to punish by switching to the right teammates, allowing Ultra to possibly come in again on a double and nuke another KO with its Z-move. MGar and Pursuit Marsh can prevent this from happening, but if kept at full health Ultra can survive a Marsh Sneak or unboosted MGar Hex (and even Shadow Ball if it has a Calm Mind boost), giving it a chance to outplay this matchup.

All in all, while Ultra is nowhere near as strong as it was initially hyped to be, is still a formidable force that can easily take advantage of the potency of Dusk Mane by exploiting both its base form's common checks and defensive qualities.

Arceus-Dark: B+ to A- (or somewhere higher in B+)

Ice Beam Arceus-Dark is one of the few Pokemon that can safely check DD Zygarde backed up by the support of Shadow Tag, and is also one of the best switchins to Calm Mind Lunala. Both are currently massive threats to Balance and Stall, and I think Arceus-Dark's ability to cover them both, in addition to what it normally does, means it deserves a small raise.

Magearna: A to A-

I think that Magearna just isn't good enough on many bulky offenses where its commonly run to justify its ranking right now. Its always been a safe switchin to Xern and Yveltal, while also allowing a safe switchin for Pdon/Steels/Ho-Oh. However, common reactive switchins to what it invites in such as Mence/Groundceus/Ogre etc. often just can't switch into Pdon/DM as much as Magearna can switch into Xerneas/Yveltal/etc. Bulky offenses have many ways to check what Magearna checks in a fashion that doesn't lose as much momentum as Magearna does to a Pdon coming in on Volt Switch. While Ground switch-ins can be punished with good hazards or Toxic damage, this limits Magearna's splashability as it can't really function well as a blanket check to special attackers without that kind of support.

It still shines on more defensive teams where its teammates can more securely switch into the threats it invites in, or can afford to run utility moves that punish Pdon coming in on Volt Switch, and appreciate Magearna bringing unique utility and being untrappable. However, its a lot less effective outside of those teams, and I believe this more limited niche warrants a drop to A-, where somewhat similar mons like Ferrothorn and Toxapex reside.

 

[Cynara]

Serial brought up some interesting noms that are worth commenting on and I also have two nominations to share too, that didn't make the initial post.

Ultra Necrozma: A- to A



Ultra Necrozma benefits from the dominance of Dusk Mane, allowing it to prey on opponents assumptions and claim surprise KOs, sweeps or revenge kills with a well timed Ultra Burst, transforming into an entirely different Pokemon with a different set of checks. Even when Ultra is suspected, many common teams are forced to go into their checks for Dusk Mane and lose them to Ultra (eg Pdon, POgre and Ho-Oh) because common Ultra checks (Scarf Xern, Marshadow, Mgar) cannot switch into pre-bursted DM at all, and if it does turn out to be DM then giving away a free double dance often just ends the game.



Offensively, Ultra Necrozma is one of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, and is able to pick and choose its defensive checks with various Neuroforce boosted coverage moves or powerful STABs. Ultra Necrozma is able to outspeed and take advantage of common Dusk Mane checks such as Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre and Ho-Oh, with its different primary STAB and Neuroforce-boosted coverage. Common answers to SD Ultra Necrozma on more defensive teams such as Mega Sableye and Arceus-Dark can also be broken through with Outrage and a small amount of chip, which is often easy to force in practice.



Defensively, Ultra brings with it a reduced vulnerability to common Ground-type moves, as well as Fire and Water, while still being able to maintain the perks of Dusk Mane's typing and bulk if necessary, letting it situationally check a huge range of threatening Pokemon, ranging from both Primals, to Steels to Fairies, being able to survive a powerful attack by choosing its typing, before hitting back hard. The access to DM's typing and bulk, and the ability to run various moves like Sunsteel Strike, Stone Edge and Outrage on its Swords Dance set to check or break different threats also gives teams with Ultra a lot of flexibility when building, and the viability of its Calm Mind set grants it an additional level of versatility.



Although Ultra is prone to revenge killing, it can easily claim a KO on a common DM switchin before being forced out. The ubiquity of Dusk Mane also means an opponent could have already sacked their Ultra check, expecting DM, allowing Ultra to sweep. Even when forced out, many checks such as Scarf Xern are easy to punish by switching to the right teammates, allowing Ultra to possibly come in again on a double and nuke another KO with its Z-move. MGar and Pursuit Marsh can prevent this from happening, but if kept at full health Ultra can survive a Marsh Sneak or unboosted MGar Hex (and even Shadow Ball if it has a Calm Mind boost), giving it a chance to outplay this matchup.



All in all, while Ultra is nowhere near as strong as it was initially hyped to be, is still a formidable force that can easily take advantage of the potency of Dusk Mane by exploiting both its base form's common checks and defensive qualities.

Strongly agree, this was going to be one of my nominations and I actually had this drafted up, I’m glad you brought it to light.

This will probably look like a controversial nomination to some, but Ultra Necrozma is the strongest wallbreaker available at the moment, defensively there are almost zero answers to Ultra Necrozma, depending on the coverage it is running, and the uprising of players utilising techs such as Outrage on SD Sets to get past it’s usual checks such as Arceus-Dark and Mega Sableye and this has helped to push Ultra Necrozma further up the threatlist on it’s own.

One of the strongest points about Necrozma is how it has reconstructed how bulkier archetypes such as stall are approached in this metagame these days, moving away from the standard of using Mega Sableye / Lugia, as it simply isn’t enough anymore, but more so, being forced to use Pokemon such as Mega Gengar + Arceus-Dark cores to ensure both Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma are covered as the only workable method stall teams have is to rely on Mega Gengar to trap and revenge-kill Ultra Necrozma to effectively deal with it or risk facing an auto loss dependent on its coverage.

The ability to start off as Necrozma-DM is also an interesting point to bring up for the argument of the rise and I do agree this contributes to its effectiveness for sure as it allows Ultra variants to bypass the normal convention of setting on threats base Necrozma-DM would not be able to, such as Primal Groudon, as it can Swords Dance and burst, meaning the opponent is now facing a +2 Necrozma that doesn’t need any speed boosts to wreck havoc, and also outspeeds the Primal Groudon it just set up on. it also creates some degree of mind games between players, however despite this, the strongest of players will be able to identify Ultra Necrozma teams accordingly most of the time, due to support it will usually require against Xerneas such as additional steels or a bulkier Primal Groudon or an extra steel-type in general to perform the duties of the support steel role. Whether as Necrozma-DM is usually a standalone steel-type on most bulky offenses these days, which makes it safe to assume it is not ultra Necrozma.

I do feel that the revenge-killing aspect is what holds Ultra Necrozma back from higher ranks, after it has Ultra Bursted it is quite prone to Mega Gengar teams (something Rock Polish Necrozma-DM is able to bypass) or Yveltal Sucker Punch or Choice Scarf sets and this is what really pulls Ultra Necrozma down, if it was faster than Mega Gengar, this would probably be a truly meta defining Pokemon in its own right.

Arceus-Dark: B+ to A- (or somewhere higher in B+)



Ice Beam Arceus-Dark is one of the few Pokemon that can safely check DD Zygarde backed up by the support of Shadow Tag, and is also one of the best switchins to Calm Mind Lunala. Both are currently massive threats to Balance and Stall, and I think Arceus-Dark's ability to cover them both, in addition to what it normally does, means it deserves a small raise.

Agree, though this is usually an Arceus forme where it’s viability usually fluctuates depending on metagame trends, it’s probably at the peak of it’s viability at the moment. As you have pointed out, it is absolutely one of the only stops to Lunala defensively, which is important for any team that desires a strong defensive backbone or a bulky offense team that wouldn’t benefit from running Yveltal. Zygarde bulky offenses that usually use Mega Gengar / Shadow Tag users as its partner have been dominating the metagame and for good reason, Arceus-Dark is the only Arceus forme that is able to compress dealing with these top of the list threats into one slot and do a relatively good job of it.

It is probably one of the strongest support Arceus-formes next to Arceus-Water at the moment. It is effective at compression and is also capable of running Stealth Rock sets such as Arceus-Water, which is something I have been utilising in UPL and general Ubers games at the moment, which is really important, as it can free up slots for other team members and allows for more breathing space in the teambuilding process. alongside this, due to the presence of shadow tag users such as Gothitelle, Arceus-Dark is probably one of the few support Arceus that is comfortably able to perform the Defog support role and not worry about the matchup against Gothitelle team, which in itself is a huge advantage over its other support Arceus counterparts such as Arceus-Water or Arceus-Ground.

Magearna: A to A-



I think that Magearna just isn't good enough on many bulky offenses where its commonly run to justify its ranking right now. Its always been a safe switchin to Xern and Yveltal, while also allowing a safe switchin for Pdon/Steels/Ho-Oh. However, common reactive switchins to what it invites in such as Mence/Groundceus/Ogre etc. often just can't switch into Pdon/DM as much as Magearna can switch into Xerneas/Yveltal/etc. Bulky offenses have many ways to check what Magearna checks in a fashion that doesn't lose as much momentum as Magearna does to a Pdon coming in on Volt Switch. While Ground switch-ins can be punished with good hazards or Toxic damage, this limits Magearna's splashability as it can't really function well as a blanket check to special attackers without that kind of support.



It still shines on more defensive teams where its teammates can more securely switch into the threats it invites in, or can afford to run utility moves that punish Pdon coming in on Volt Switch, and appreciate Magearna bringing unique utility and being untrappable. However, its a lot less effective outside of those teams, and I believe this more limited niche warrants a drop to A-, where somewhat similar mons like Ferrothorn and Toxapex reside.

This is a nomination I am really on the fence about and I could see a good argument for dropping it, it’s simply a pure reactive Pokemon in a metagame that sees more proactive playing as days go by.

I have never been a strong Magearna fan, but you can get away from the passiveness, with the Choice Specs set gaining a small amount of traction, which is probably gonna be an uncommon taste for some, but it really pulls Magearna away from some of negative traits, and provides a bit more versatility and making the Pokemon less one dimensional, it allows it to apply some pressure to common switch ins that would otherwise punish it, allowing it to get some game changing damage on Pokemon such as Primal Groudon. Though I do agree that Pokemon such as Ho-Oh or a predicted Magearna switch in from the opponent can lead to a punish. Though most defensive steels suffer from this problem as a whole.


It’s defensive traits are what I feel give a good choice to consider on teams that need a Yveltal / Xerneas stop, which is what gives it an edge over Ferrothorn as a defensive steel, however as a whole, I feel like Ferrothorn has much more useful utility such as Leech Seed or Spikes, which makes it attractable over considering Magearna if one decides to go with a purely defensive steel-type.

I can see strong arguments for this Pokémon to drop, but overall I feel like it’s a nomination that could go either way, but overall I feel like I would have to abstain from the nomination, as I neither agree or disagree strong enough.



My own nominations

Xerneas to S- (above Marshadow)

Xerneas is the most versatile than it ever has been since the start of the USM Ubers metagame, with it’s most popular set being Choice Scarf amongst users. A good portion of teams such as balance and bulky offense have a strong requirement for fairy-types due to the abundance positive qualities they are able to bring to a team.

Xerneas is arguably the strongest Fairy type in terms of offensive presence with sets like Geomancy being the flagship of it’s offensive sets, but Calm Mind + Z-Crystal Techs are also promising. While also being the most dominant terms of team support at the moment, what makes it stand out and superior as a support fairy when compared to Arceus-Fairy,it has vital moves for balance and bulky offense archetypes support in such as Aromatherapy and Defog. Both of these moves Choice Scarf Xerneas is able to use these moves, effectively on the types of teams it fits, furthermore, this cements Choice Scarf for being one of the most dominating Xerneas sets in the metagame right now, as unlike other support fairies it is able to provide more of a offensive presence and revenge kill important offensive threats such as Marshadow and Ultra Necrozma. In commonplace, Arceus-Fairy can find itself folding to Ultra Necrozma, due to its sheer power and superior speed making it out of reach for Arceus-Fairy, a notable threat Scarf Xerneas is capable of revenge killing.

The amount of support Xerneas is able to provide is very beneficial, meaning teams are able to make much use of the Arceus slot, allowing for the accommodation of stronger support Arceus such as Arceus-Water, which allows for Ho-oh security, something quite a few Arceus-Fairy teams suffer from, as I feel most Arceus-Fairy teams require forced teammates such as Mega Salamence or risk being Ho-Oh weak. They also have the option of going offensive such as Swords Dance/Calm Mind Arceus-Ground.

Scarf Xerneas, still arguably face the threat of Mega Gengar like Arceus-Fairy, but I feel Xerneas is probably the one least prone to this, losing a support Arceus to Gengar can be very deterrent to a team, Mega Gengar forces ultimatums against Xerneas in later parts of the game, it either risks pulling off the much needed Aromatherapy in exchange of being trapped by Mega Gengar or it can click Moonblast and deter it from switching in, but compromise the rest of the team and this alone, means it requires a good tangent of high level play to be successful.

Though I still feel this is a factor and taking everything into weight, I feel Xerneas is worthy of S-.

Mega Salamence to A (below Arceus-Ground)

Mega Salamence is probably at the lowest it has been since ORAS. With the initial Aerilate damage nerf at the beginning of SM, the current metagame is as ideal for Mega Salamence. While Dragon Dance is still on the threatlist, Mega Salamence checks are being naturally built into teams , with more checks being introduced with USM Offensive variants are requiring more team support to function than before, therefore becoming more of a utility mega with Defog. Due to the rise of Dragon Dance Zygarde, more teams are packing support Arceus, and Arceus such as Ice Beam Arceus-Water, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Fairy, Ice coverage is also becoming common practice on Pokemon such as Marshadow and Primal Groudon. Mega Salamence also doesn’t actually beat many physical attackers either, offensive Arceus have been on a decline since the introduction of SM. Ultra Necrozma and Necrozma-DM, Marshadow are all able to threaten Mega Salamence, Dusk Mane is also bulky enough to trade out Mega Salamence. Overall teams are more than prepared for Mega Salamence than they have been.

The issue with the utility set is, it’s defensive capabilities become somewhat limited and shaky when Stealth Rock is up, meaning if it has to switch into a target such as Primal Groudon, it doesn’t really get any benefit out of it and infact actually lose a turn, due to the fact it is forced to roost. numerous Stealth Rock users are actually capable of threatening Mega Salamence either naturally such as Arceus-Fairy or with the aforementioned ice coverage such as Arceus-Water or Primal Groudon, making it a ineffective defogger in the long run against some matchups

Despite all this, it can be a considerable threat when given the chance, that it is essential that teams don't leave it off their threatlist.

This will probably be my last big post for a bit, while the meta tries to settle again, but eventually I will give my views of the metagame and post future nominations, but there isn’t much to say until a good period of time after UPL concludes.

 

[Nayrz]

Just providing an update as we are currently evaluating the VR update internally and have been doing so since UPL ended. There is a lot of internal discussion going on about how we perceive S rank that has somewhat stalled our ability to make a straightforward update. Some believe S rank should be purely for those that define the metagame (Primal Groudon, Dusk Mane Necrozma), whereas others believe that simply being better than those in A+ is enough for S-.

The result of the discussion may mean that we downshift the ranks overall and remove S-, leaving A+ for the very good mons and S for the meta definers, aiming to shift stuff down rather than into S- or S. It could also just come out with a straightforward ranking update. I'm hoping to have this all finalized and an update ready by the weekend. If we can show how we came to a decision in the sheet properly I will aim to do that.

 

[Grand Integrator]

Just providing an update as we are currently evaluating the VR update internally and have been doing so since UPL ended. There is a lot of internal discussion going on about how we perceive S rank that has somewhat stalled our ability to make a straightforward update. Some believe S rank should be purely for those that define the metagame (Primal Groudon, Dusk Mane Necrozma), whereas others believe that simply being better than those in A+ is enough for S-.

The result of the discussion may mean that we downshift the ranks overall and remove S-, leaving A+ for the very good mons and S for the meta definers, aiming to shift stuff down rather than into S- or S. It could also just come out with a straightforward ranking update. I'm hoping to have this all finalized and an update ready by the weekend. If we can show how we came to a decision in the sheet properly I will aim to do that.

Nayrz, would it be possible to provide a short summary of the expected changes to be made in VR (as in which mons are expected to move up or down), before formally posting over the weekend?

I'd expect to see a large amount of movements around the high and lower end ranks with some shifts in the middle. Too many to note individually - Nayrz

 

[EternalSnowman]

So I have made my personal viability rankings for post upl involving my general experience in the tier through seasonal, and of course playing and watching during upl. My entire thoughts are in the video here (there are two parts)

part 2

the full pb is here: https://pastebin.com/zZgFXTVY

I will go through some of the most major changes that I believe should happen, I know my opinions in general are radical so I will just go through the points that I strongly believe in and I won't specify how much higher/lower I want them to rise.

Pogre higher: one of the best mons in the tier, with 3 amazing sets (CM, mixogre, resttalk) and can threaten a large set of builds, and puts a lot of teambuilding pressure on non-ferro builds in general. All 3 sets saw a lot of usage during upl, and this makes it very scary, as not knowing pogres set can be very dangerous when it comes to dealing with it (unless ur using ferro), this is also notable since its notable partner can be exploited by goth.

MMeta higher: underrated mega, and imo the best pressure offense mega, with the ability to heavily pressure many builds with any sort of hazards, also a notable xerneas check on offense, which can be relatively hard to come by. While it is not as good at sweeping as duskmane, and they will inevitably be compared, it is faster, stronger, has prio and has access to lots of coverage right off the bat at the cost of some bulk and lack of setup. it is defo not a plug and play mon, but in pressure offense it has a lot of potential.

mvenu higher: I think since it has been added to the vr, it has shown a lot of success in different tours (im talking mostly about ssnls and such, it was brought to upl once and won), and I defo think it does deserve to be higher for the reasons i already posted, and can be a great glue piece and defensive core on balance, recent meta trends help it in general as it is a p good mon at dealing with zygarde (beating both tspikes and beats glare if u get averagely lucky)

Magearna lower: abusable mon, while it can do its job, its quite passive at what it does and can be exploited somewhat easily by the mons its supposed to check

dialga higher: one of the best rocks setters at pressuring stall, it can absolutely be a good mon on offense and BO, its prevalence comes from its ability to beat or toxic all defoggers and being toxic immune gives it a large boon vs. stall. it has the option to run either adamant orb to captalize vs. its strength vs. stall or shuca berry to help vs. balance builds (namely duskmane).

chansey, skarmory lower: honestly these seem too high for their opportunity cost, feels like kinda outdated to rank them this high, as being trapped lowers their stock by so much. especially chansey who has a counterpart that almost outclasses it bc of its ability to run shed shell.

I didnt list every single change, as it literally spans a 2 hour video, but these are just some of the most important ones I felt, and especially ones that I felt I alone would rep and not many other people would.

 

[Nayrz]

We finally managed to finish this damn thing. First, the changes to the council. Serial EKiller and Melee Mewtwo have joined the council! The Trap God is dealing with IRL and had to pass on this update but had some internal contributions and got behind all of Melee Mewtwo's rankings. Omfuga has stepped down for the time being.

Let's talk the update. As I mentioned previously we took a closer look at what we believed the ranks to mean and realized we had different views. We eventually figured that S should represent the true meta defining mons, and rather than move stuff up, we should have a general downshift to combat the rank inflation. The first tab of our spreadsheet is a personal VR from the S ranks to A-, and the second tab is a typical nominations sheet for the B+ to D areas. Here it is. Due to the amount of shuffling, my previous way of displaying the update list gets... very confusing. I'll just format it to show old and new in hide tags, with a quick indication if something moved an entire subrank.

New Rankings (S to A-)

S+

Primal Groudon

S

Dusk Mane Necrozma

S- (Removed!)

A+

Zygarde-C
Mega Gengar (was S-)
Xerneas
Marshadow (was S-)
Yveltal (was S-)

A

Arceus-Ground
Mega Salamence (was A+)
Primal Kyogre
Arceus-Water
Ultra Necrozma (was A-)
Ho-Oh (was A+)

A-

Lunala (was B+)
Magearna (was A)
Gothitelle
Arceus-Dark (was B+)
Ferrothorn
Arceus-Fairy
Giratina-O
Toxapex
Rayquaza

Old Rankings (S to A-)

S+

Primal Groudon

S

Dusk Mane Necrozma

S-

Yveltal
Mega Gengar
Marshadow

A+

Xerneas
Mega Salamence
Ho-Oh
Zygarde-C

A

Primal Kyogre
Arceus-Ground
Magearna
Arceus-Water

A-

Gothitelle
Rayquaza
Ultra Necrozma
Giratina-O
Arceus-Fairy
Ferrothorn
Toxapex
Arceus-Flying

And a standard listing for B+ and below stuff:

Arceus-Flying: A- >> B+ (top of B+)
Naganadel: B >> C+ (above Mega Tyranitar)
Tapu Lele: B- >> C+ (below Naganadel)
Mega Gyarados: B >> B- (top of B-)
Ditto: C+ >> B- (below Excadrill)
Dialga: C >> C+ (above Dugtrio)
Shaymin-Sky: C+ >> C (below the newly placed Mega Slowbro)
Mega Slowbro: Unranked >> C (top of C)
Alolan Muk: Unranked >> C- (top of C-)
Wobbuffet: Unranked >> C- (below Alolan Muk)
Shuckle: C+ >> Unranked
Bronzong: C- >> Unranked

Plenty of stuff moved and we felt we still lacked time to properly sort some other noms out and have us all here to do the sheet, so I'm expecting some discussions to pop up on stuff that we will better address in the next update.

 

[Rhmsitb]

Kangaskhan mega should atleast have B+ ranking. Because its parental bond ability threatens the opponent.Body slam has 60% chance of paralysing the target.It can learn fake out,sucker punch, crunch, seismic toss, power up punch, rock tomb. All these moves make it a real monster.

 

[Lotus]

There were some discussions about Necrozma-DW while the revamp was going on in C&C section. Both me and others came to an agreement that the only viable way to use it is just using its Ghost typing to block Rapid Spin and use Ultra Burst afterwards. I assume Necrozma-DW was ranked at C- earlier because Necrozma-DW had its own set (Trick Room + Lunalium Z) on the dex site, which will be removed as soon as revamp is done. Do these mean that Necrozma-DW should now be sent to the shadow realm as its only viable use is technically using it as Ultra Necrozma, which is separately ranked on VR?

 

[snakey77]

I don’t quite understand why mega slowbro is c. It is perhaps the most reliable counter to many physically offensive threats like offensive dusk mane/ultra necrozma, mega lucario, extreme killer arceus, etc, and it doesn’t get crippled after it does, since it can set up iron defences, heal off any damage and then use foul play at a good time and is left with a relatively high amount of health, and can continue to counter the above threats. It does have some problems, like a vulnerability to gothitelle and mega gengar and using up a mega slot, but using up mega slots isn’t really such a big deal imo and pursuit trappers can help deal with mega gengar (although if it has subsitute it can prove to be a real problem). But still, it has a great niche in countering physical attackers which nothing else can do as reliably as it can, and I feel it should be moved up a bit.