Metagame USUM AG Metagame Discussion Thread

One thing I don't get is how old ORAS Primal Groudon techs seemingly aren't around for AG's more offensive Primal Groudons (see: Dragon Tail). Why is this the case? Why is it that some Primal Groudon also opt to drop Precipice Blades for Rest? What does Rest do for it in most games that would actually ensure that Mega Rayquaza doesn't just get free switchins?
 
One thing I don't get is how old ORAS Primal Groudon techs seemingly aren't around for AG's more offensive Primal Groudons (see: Dragon Tail). Why is this the case? Why is it that some Primal Groudon also opt to drop Precipice Blades for Rest? What does Rest do for it in most games that would actually ensure that Mega Rayquaza doesn't just get free switchins?
Which other old ORAS PDon techs (for offensive sets) are you referring to? As for Dragon Tail, it's really only used on defensive sets. A good answer to why people don't run Dragon Tail on an offensive set is because MRay will always come in after something dies and do a minimum of 80% just about guaranteed, while usually OHKO'ing if running LO Draco Meteor, Surf, Waterfall, or CB Earthquake. The defensive set lives all of these attacks mentioned above and can hit it back with a DTail, so, that's why people sometimes run DTail on defensive rather than offensive. I'd also say that there are more useful moves like Dragon Pulse/HP Ice or Stone Edge/Rock Tomb that some offensive sets may wanna run instead of DTail

As for Rest PDon.. it's really not that good imo. The purpose of that set is usually to get a better matchup vs stall and bulky balance by being an annoyance that can set rocks and poison everything or while not dying. For example, mons like Giratina, Arceus-Water, and Defensive Ho-Oh strongly rely on Toxic to wither down PDon. There are a couple of Rest sets, none amazing

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Precipice Blades / Fire Punch / Earthquake
- Rest

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Lava Plume
- Toxic / Roar
- Precipice Blades / Earthquake
- Rest

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Swords Dance
- Rest
- Precipice Blades / Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Fire Punch / Rock Tomb

People also don't opt for Rest > Precipice, rather Fire Punch > Precipice. Mono Fire attack PDon is sometimes used on the SR Toxic Rest set because it hits Yveltal, Celesteela, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and chips MRay I guess. Toxic and Rest allows you to beat POgre anyways (barring CM Rest) so Precipice isn't completely necessary. Though, I still think Rest PDon is fairly bad lol. Unless you have a handy heal bell user or are using it on a Stallish/Bulky team with tons of good MRay switch ins then it's absolute MRay bait like you said


TL;DR/Summary:
Not sure what other offensive ORAS sets/techs you're referring to but PDon will always struggle hard asf vs MRay (which is why people don't utilize offensive PDon as often in AG, defensive has always been some pretty broken shit)

Dragon Tail usually isn't that optimal of a move to run on an offensive set and is better on a defensive set

Rest PDon is buns and isn't really even used on teams that don't have an Aroma/Bell user or tons of checks like Celesteela/Tyranitar/Skarmory/Lugia/Arceus-Fairy/MGar/Etc.
 
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Which other old ORAS PDon techs (for offensive sets) are you referring to? As for Dragon Tail, it's really only used on defensive sets. A good answer to why people don't run Dragon Tail on an offensive set is because MRay will always come in after something dies and do a minimum of 80% just about guaranteed, while usually OHKO'ing if running LO Draco Meteor, Surf, Waterfall, or CB Earthquake. The defensive set lives all of these attacks mentioned above and can hit it back with a DTail, so, that's why people sometimes run DTail on defensive rather than offensive. I'd also say that there are more useful moves like Dragon Pulse/HP Ice or Stone Edge/Rock Tomb that some offensive sets may wanna run instead of DTail.
It might not have been a thing in AG but offensive Stealth Rock sets used to run Dragon Tail in Ubers due to Lati twins + Giratina-Origin being fairly prevalent as checks - the Lati twins being gone means that Primal Groudon is much safer going mixed now. This is what I am referring to, running Dragon Tail over Rock Tomb on an offensive Stealth Rock set.

As for the argument put down here - isn't this a fundamental issue with Primal Groudon in the first place? I get that defensive sets can live all of these but is it so much better than getting a much stronger hit on bulky Arceus, and thus having a better ability to set Stealth Rock? Is that not a good enough niche to see usage?

Regardless, thank you for your answer. I can definitely see that some Rock Tomb sets from Ubers being much less effective in AG, especially with more Zygarde-Complete usage.
 
It might not have been a thing in AG but offensive Stealth Rock sets used to run Dragon Tail in Ubers due to Lati twins + Giratina-Origin being fairly prevalent as checks - the Lati twins being gone means that Primal Groudon is much safer going mixed now. This is what I am referring to, running Dragon Tail over Rock Tomb on an offensive Stealth Rock set.

As for the argument put down here - isn't this a fundamental issue with Primal Groudon in the first place? I get that defensive sets can live all of these but is it so much better than getting a much stronger hit on bulky Arceus, and thus having a better ability to set Stealth Rock? Is that not a good enough niche to see usage?

Regardless, thank you for your answer. I can definitely see that some Rock Tomb sets from Ubers being much less effective in AG, especially with more Zygarde-Complete usage.
I see. Tbh I wasn't actually thinking about an offensive DTail Stealth Rock PDon set, but more of some SD 3 Atks or even a 4 Atks PDon. It's definitely something you don't really see in AG though, so I can get why you're wondering why people aren't using it. I'm assuming it would run SR, DTail, Precipice, and could have a lot of options for a 4th move filler. I'll give my thoughts on some of the filler options

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch / Toxic / Stone Edge / Thunder Wave

Looking at running Fire Punch or Stone Edge as the 4th move, I think a little problem is that you're going to be walled by bulky Defog Arcs that will Toxic and spam Recover for eternity. I'm pretty sure max Atk Precipice does less than 50 vs a 248 HP / 244+ Def Arc (pretty standard in AG, bulky arcs are really everywhere, we're talking Fairy, Ground, Water, and Dark all sometimes run this set) so you can usually just wait for a Precipice miss. This calc is pretty depressing but this is why I think Toxic or even Thunder Wave is crucial for crippling defensive Arceus

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Arceus-Ground in Harsh Sunshine: 165-195 (37.2 - 44%)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Arceus-Ground: 177-208 (39.9 - 46.9%)

You CAN run Swords Dance as a 4th move filler but that honestly just sounds pretty horrible like, yeah my only attack that hits flying types is dragon tail and now Yveltal and Ho-Oh wall. If you go with Toxic as your filler then this brings me back to my point of "just use defensive", since it lives all of the attacks from MRay. I think the optimal set to use if you're ever going with offensive SR DTail is probably going to be the SR 3 Atks set because you'll want to get the most out of max Atk PDon, but, it's still is really sad that it gets walled by support Arcs.

Tbh offensive SR PDon is super rare in AG in the first place. SR is almost never ran on offense because better rock setters like Excadrill and Deo-S exist. I think it has a niche on Webs but those sets would primarily be eruption or SD, not DTail. SR DTail might be possible to run on some sort of BO but I don't think there's any reason to invest in Atk EVs when going standard SpD Toxic SR allows you to live lots of crucial attacks. Max Atk PDon possibly could be good for Cteaming Stalls that don't utilize defensive Arcs, but DTail isn't too useful in that situation, even if it can Dragon Tail a mon like Giratina, Precipice does 40% anyways so there's not much of a point

Some better offensive SR sets in my opinion:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Tomb / Fire Punch

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Stealth Rock
- Eruption
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Tomb / Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Ice


I do think living attacks with the SpD set is more important than doing more damage. I'd be open to change my mind if there's a calc that you can only achieve with max Atk PDon but it looks like defensive Arcs wall non Toxic, SD, or special PDon variations
 
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
- Stealth Rock
- Eruption
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Tomb / Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Ice / Dragon Tail
In the end I think this is what I was supposed to say - the final option on this set as it prevents Mray / Zyg from coming in somewhat freely and Eruption still punishes bulky Arcs.
 
This is my anti lead darkceus set which almost never fails
Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Magic Coat
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

just use this as your lead pokemon, and it surprises the foe by bouncing the webs and spore or predicted toxic or you can simply wisp the oppsosing ray, since this is a defensive darkceus it isn't usually 2hkoed by the dragon ascent without a boost.
It also works fairly well against psyspam when using it along with a scarfed ray or xern against. it just does wonders and is hard to predict this set and the best part is most of the lead pokemons in current meta don't resist dark type. Also defog can be used in place of wisp if excadrill often annoys you.

HOPE YOU LIKE THIS POST
THANKS


btw its my first post on smogon :)
 
This is my anti lead darkceus set which almost never fails
Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Magic Coat
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

just use this as your lead pokemon, and it surprises the foe by bouncing the webs and spore or predicted toxic or you can simply wisp the oppsosing ray, since this is a defensive darkceus it isn't usually 2hkoed by the dragon ascent without a boost.
It also works fairly well against psyspam when using it along with a scarfed ray or xern against. it just does wonders and is hard to predict this set and the best part is most of the lead pokemons in current meta don't resist dark type. Also defog can be used in place of wisp if excadrill often annoys you.

HOPE YOU LIKE THIS POST
THANKS


btw its my first post on smogon :)
ok then i'm a problem for you because i always lead scarf xern
 
252 SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 168-200 (38 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Wouldn't really call that a "ton". Also, he obviously wouldn't stay in against lead xern lmao. His set is fine, just make sure magic coat darkceus isn't your only form of hazard control, e.g add some defog arc and you should be alright.
 
252 SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 168-200 (38 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Wouldn't really call that a "ton". Also, he obviously wouldn't stay in against lead xern lmao. His set is fine, just make sure magic coat darkceus isn't your only form of hazard control, e.g add some defog arc and you should be alright.
i mentioned that in th post that you can use defog in place of wisp or simply have a support groundceus in your team
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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Guys please try to keep the random 1-liners to a minimum, nothing after the Darkceus set needed to get posted whatsoever.

For what it's worth, I think lead arcs are probably better now than they have been in a while, rocks + possibly cripple one thing is a weird tradeoff compared to what excadrill and deo-s (or even shuckle/smeargle ig) can do but it just feels like a more reasonable trade atm. However I would always recommend Toxic or Roar over Wisp, which is just so much less threatening. Setting rocks and just dying isn't worthwhile at all, and I'm hard pressed to think of many teams that are threatened by this set between the Fairyceus's and Yveltal's and whatnot.
 

pulsar512b

Banned deucer.
aerodactyl op



In all seriousness, for rock-weak teams, aerodactyl is literally the best suicide lead due to a fast taunt, pressure, defog, everything! TTTG's Aerodactyl RMT is a good example of this, as is GRNxBLN's aerodactyl webs. While I was banned, I became an aerodactyl addict and found a new way to abuse use it; smashpass. Traditionally, smashpasses have used some form of lead arceus. now im busting down the door

In addition to aerodactyl, I also came up with a unique xerneas set that lets it break through THE MOST things:
Xerneas @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 4 Atk / 164 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Rash Nature
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Close Combat

evs are very similar to the standard geoxern


So lets start discussing aerodactyl!
 
aerodactyl op



In all seriousness, for rock-weak teams, aerodactyl is literally the best suicide lead due to a fast taunt, pressure, defog, everything! TTTG's Aerodactyl RMT is a good example of this, as is GRNxBLN's aerodactyl webs. While I was banned, I became an aerodactyl addict and found a new way to abuse use it; smashpass. Traditionally, smashpasses have used some form of lead arceus. now im busting down the door

In addition to aerodactyl, I also came up with a unique xerneas set that lets it break through THE MOST things:
Xerneas @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 4 Atk / 164 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Rash Nature
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Close Combat

evs are very similar to the standard geoxern


So lets start discussing aerodactyl!
aerodactyl is fine but you're overestimating it. I thought aero should be moved to D rank because it's a sr lead that is able to beat shuckle but it really has no other tools that make it better than deo-s. stab rock tomb and tailwind are just aight. but yea, definitely not the best suicide lead when deo-s gets spikes, screens, skill swap, and so on

there's also no reason to run z fight xereneas. if beating chansey is so important then geo moonblast sub twave/calm mind/endeavor works better, even though those are mediocre sets as well. geo xern is such a big threat right now, using this would be handicapping yourself. having no speed and -spd is seriously awful


here's a wack lead i've thought about using btw. it's just the basic bitch lead fairyceus set except being iceceus, which arguably gets better matchups vs common defoggers. taking sr damage also isn't an issue if you lead with it

Arceus-Ice @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Judgment
- Magic Coat
- Roar / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
 

pulsar512b

Banned deucer.
aerodactyl is fine but you're overestimating it. I thought aero should be moved to D rank because it's a sr lead that is able to beat shuckle but it really has no other tools that make it better than deo-s. stab rock tomb and tailwind are just aight. but yea, definitely not the best suicide lead when deo-s gets spikes, screens, skill swap, and so on

there's also no reason to run z fight xereneas. if beating chansey is so important then geo moonblast sub twave/calm mind/endeavor works better, even though those are mediocre sets as well. geo xern is such a big threat right now, using this would be handicapping yourself. having no speed and -spd is seriously awful


here's a wack lead i've thought about using btw. it's just the basic bitch lead fairyceus set except being iceceus, which arguably gets better matchups vs common defoggers. taking sr damage also isn't an issue if you lead with it

Arceus-Ice @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Judgment
- Magic Coat
- Roar / Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
I specifically said that it's the best lead for rock weak teams. In other cases, yeah it kinda sucks. i know my xern sucks but what the fuck its a meme set anyways
 

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