Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[Marigold]

it's always a good time when a person/group of people say they don't want a thread shitting up, and denounce a person as a troll, then continue to go after them even when their opinions (opinion, imagine that) have stopped being contested! great!!! even going to the lengths of citing the tiering framework like some like-fiending robot

seriously though people need to realise that not everyone is gonna interpret things in the exact same way they do.

:[ What's wrong with objectively looking at a topic? I didn't realize that proper, informed analysis of a topic was a bad thing. My apologies, I guess you'd prefer the uninformed, opinionated, no-evidence approach that messed up the thread in the first place? :]

 

[Celticpride]

:[ What's wrong with objectively looking at a topic? I didn't realize that proper, informed analysis of a topic was a bad thing. My apologies, I guess you'd prefer the uninformed, opinionated, no-evidence approach that messed up the thread in the first place? :]

Citing tier frameworks is nice and all but it's far from objective. I don't have much to weigh in on the LandoT discussion, but suspects are hardly ever objective. See: usage =/= viability. I'd rather see someone breaking down a tour replay rather subjectively showing Landorus-T isn't or is broken, than citing frameworks as some sort of objective thing when they're really just a vague guideline creating for a minimalist baseline for tiering.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Adds nothing to the discussion? Check.

Stated in a snarky and arrogant fashion? Check.

Trying to speak from atop a soap box? Check.

Talk about "like-fiending robot".

Look, the point is, feeling a way about something is fine. Nothing wrong with differing opinions.

The problem comes in when people come into threads like their shit doesn't stink. Having an opinion is one thing, stating it as fact, and insinuating anyone who disagrees with it clearly can't read is another. If you think Lando should be suspected, so be it, but don't be surprised when someone asks you why and your reasoning is poorly thought out and get called on it.

I'm not saying ad hominem is justifiable in either of these member's cases, but one of them is most certainly the root for the "discourse" that came about.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Gotta agree with Celtic. Usage is honestly one of the worst arguments you can make for banning something. Donphan is in the Top 10 for usage in RU despite being C-, and was even number one at one point. Does that mean it should be suspected? Not even close.

 

[Lotus]

Why do you all bicker and argue, I thought we were talking about Landorus-T :(
I'm not trying to make this a "christian thread" or anything, but I think it is much better for us to talk about the new generation of Pokemon OU tier than talking about just pointing out individual posts and calling them out. Everyone here have their personal opinion, and even if they sound dumb, it is their own thoughts after all and I think it is the most reasonable for us to logically and respectfully explain why some stuff are acceptable / not. One thing I am pretty sure is we aren't getting anywhere if we are just flooding this thread with mocks and other bad stuff.

Because I want this post to be related to Metagame (can someone define this for me ;-;), I will answer jdcomix's question in the previous page:

I think Mega Venusaur is always mediocre Pokemon. I have been using the balance team that is from the guy who has Garchomp avatar (everyone was posting f word in his profile page if that helps you figure out who he is) and it has been working nicely. Defensively, it seemed like it isn't a strong counter for anything but I think it can cover a big array of threats. Ash-Greninja has to go for Dark Pulse flinch for KO which is very dangerous when Mega Venusaur has Giga Drain, and Knock Off is generally a good move to staple on. I have been using Sleep Powder and while Amoonguss seems to do better job with this, Venusaur is better if you want a grass type that does some damage. Venusaur in Mega form has high Special attack and it isn't too passive.

 

[Eboera]

Why do you all bicker and argue, I thought we were talking about Landorus-T :(
I'm not trying to make this a "christian thread" or anything, but I think it is much better for us to talk about the new generation of Pokemon OU tier than talking about just pointing out individual posts and calling them out. Everyone here have their personal opinion, and even if they sound dumb, it is their own thoughts after all and I think it is the most reasonable for us to logically and respectfully explain why some stuff are acceptable / not. One thing I am pretty sure is we aren't getting anywhere if we are just flooding this thread with mocks and other bad stuff.

Because I want this post to be related to Metagame (can someone define this for me ;-;), I will answer jdcomix's question in the previous page:

I think Mega Venusaur is always mediocre Pokemon. I have been using the balance team that is from the guy who has Garchomp avatar (everyone was posting f word in his profile page if that helps you figure out who he is) and it has been working nicely. Defensively, it seemed like it isn't a strong counter for anything but I think it can cover a big array of threats. Ash-Greninja has to go for Dark Pulse flinch for KO which is very dangerous when Mega Venusaur has Giga Drain, and Knock Off is generally a good move to staple on. I have been using Sleep Powder and while Amoonguss seems to do better job with this, Venusaur is better if you want a grass type that does some damage. Venusaur in Mega form has high Special attack and it isn't too passive.

1. I like you you bring up good points and are constructive and try to keep things on topic. So you are S Tier
2. This very specific community has a lot of thoughts surrounding Lando-T about if it should be in the tier or not. I think overall it comes down to is a lot of people have stared at Lando-T on every team for years at this point and are tired of it, and a lot of people want it suspect tested mostly just because they don't want to play against it ever again. To compare Lando-T to the most recent thing everyone here hated, Naganadel, Naga was banned out because it was completely warping the meta game, and you would almost always lose because it was so powerful, unless you had 1 of a specific few answers on your team just to deal with it. Also what made it broken was even though it essentially only did 1 thing, it did it so well you had to have it on your team, in the end it was sorta viewed as let's say suddenly Mewtwo was OU allowed, why would you ever not just put it on your team.
Compared to Lando-T, yes it is at the very top of the meta game, but that is because it is very strong, and is super flexable for whatever job you want it to fill, from a sweeper to a lead, to a stall set, ect ect. The difference being multiple pokemon in the OU tier can deal with it, and even though it is S tier, I don't run it very often and tend to climb just fine when I want to. It's an argumentative difference of do people think it defines the metagame, or is it warping the metagame to much.
3. Part of this whole thread and everything is talking over what does the meta look like, and right now it is in hard flex as people figure it out. M-Venu at A- is not a set in stone thing, if people show that they think other mons in comparison to it are way better, then it can move down. For me what makes Mega-Venu so strong is, it is probably the most solid mega you can have on a team. What's nice about Mega-Venusaur is as you said, it doesn't outright counter a whole lot of things in the meta, but it does check a large amount of threats. It's a Pokemon that unless you just happen to have it's hard counters, M-Pinsir, M-Alakazam and M-Medicham come to mind, it's something that can be very hard to take down and often at the end of the battle where all your mons are crippled and statused, it can just sit and stall and be perfectly happy and healthy while your opponent can struggle to find an answer. Again though I said all this, this thread is suppose to be discussing how we think the meta is, and the meta is wildly in flux, so I can both see a world where it stays A-, and one where it could drop.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

So I tried SubPunch Tapu Bulu to mostly deal easier with Ferrothorn and I am torn up about one thing:

Is Fightium-Z really that good on Focus Punch Tapu Bulu?

252 Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 294-346 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

I hate this calc. This means that good old Ferrothorn which switched into the sub might live your Z-move which is essentially "wasted in the process". Now I won't say that deleting Ferrothorn is a bad thing, but honestly +2 SD "standard" Superpower accomplishes the same thing and about Focus Punch: You can't use it freely as you want because you have lower move priority from your opponent which might u-turn/vswitch on you and even if you catch Ferrothorn what can you do? Due to Focus Punch having lower priority you can't even "double-hit" Ferrothorn compared to Superpower.

Another major problem about Sub:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 81-96 (28.8 - 34.1%)

Even Power Whip breaks Bulu Subs due to Grassy Terrain...

This is the set I tested:

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Leech Seed
- Wood Hammer

SubSeed means that in certain situations which would be very bad (against TR Teams) you are able to stall the enemy out.

However, I am mostly disappointed by this set and I wonder how it could be improved. I mean SubPunch does have potential after all:
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 128-151 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

... or not. I think I play it wrong. Also this set loses to Mega Venusaur, Amoongus etc. Help


CelticEdit: removed what was more of a SQSA type question.

 

[Sabbio]

So I tried SubPunch Tapu Bulu to mostly deal easier with Ferrothorn and I am torn up about one thing:

Is Fightium-Z really that good on Focus Punch Tapu Bulu?

252 Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 294-346 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

I hate this calc. This means that good old Ferrothorn which switched into the sub might live your Z-move which is essentially "wasted in the process". Now I won't say that deleting Ferrothorn is a bad thing, but honestly +2 SD "standard" Superpower accomplishes the same thing and about Focus Punch: You can't use it freely as you want because you have lower move priority from your opponent which might u-turn/vswitch on you and even if you catch Ferrothorn what can you do? Due to Focus Punch having lower priority you can't even "double-hit" Ferrothorn compared to Superpower.

Have you tried out Life Orb?
Moreover, doing that much to a Ferro is nice for an eventual Kartana/Gren in the back to set up for their sweeps.

This is the set I tested:

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Leech Seed
- Wood Hammer

SubSeed means that in certain situations which would be very bad (against TR Teams) you are able to stall the enemy out.

However, I am mostly disappointed by this set and I wonder how it could be improved. I mean SubPunch does have potential after all:
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 128-151 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

... or not. I think I play it wrong. Also this set loses to Mega Venusaur, Amoongus etc. Help

This set looks very cool on paper though. Maybe pair it with a Sub Electrium Zone/Gravity Flyinium Lando?
Which set besides the quite bad Psychium Bulu doesn't lose to Venu, anyway?

 

[Finchinator]

Hide

Just want to post this as a reminder that this thread is intended to be used for healthy metagame discussion, not as a serious suspect discussion or as a place to complain about whatever you dislike about the metagame in the early stages. The OU Council will very much be on top of things and act in the future if any tiering decisions must be made. If any posts happen to not keep this in mind, then the OU moderator team will be quick to delete and/or infract them. I am looking forward to the metagame developing and seeing what all of these new toys can do and threads like these can be great for sharing ideas and perspectives, but they have to be handled properly if they want to be of any use at all, so keep this in mind.

Alright, I get it. I truly do -- Landorus-T is that big bad presence that storms all over your favorite tier, finding itself on almost every single team and you can't help but buy into this new, appealing "ban Landorus-T" hype wave haha. And, hell, I'll even go a bit further -- there are some actual reasons provided within this thread that would make getting rid of Landorus-T appear to be a reasonable decision, I will not deny this. The thing is that this thread is not the place to discuss that (see: the hide tag!) and, as a council member, I can safely say that this is not happening atm and if there were to be a discussion, it would happen in the badgeholder subforum Policy Review, not here.

The purpose of the OU forum is not to discuss prospective suspects or quickbans unless a suspect is happening and a suspect thread is open. The purpose is to generate healthy metagame discussion, help newer users, and give resources for players of the tier for building/gameplay. There is no place for this discussion and the next time the thread gets derailed, I am locking it. I know none of you want that, so post with caution.

 

[minusleaf]

Been a lurker on this forum for Arceus knows how long now, and I'd like to contribute another Lando-T post given my experiences on the ladder.

In terms of what Lando can do compared to other ground types, I never find myself preparing specifically for it. Ground resists and immunities are just generally important when teambuilding anyway, otherwise that no drawback move Earthquake would have a field day rampaging through teams. Lando can run multiple sets well, sure, but the consequences of guessing its set wrong are not as gamebreaking as something like Volcarona where a bad guess will let it steamroll through your entire team because of its expansive movepool. Due to the combination its non-stellar speed, a movepool that doesn't let it take advantage of its good offensive typing, a typing that leaves it vulnerable to common neutrally-effective attacking types from pokes that can abuse them, and lack of reliable recovery, Z-move variants usually get at most one kill or heavily weaken a poke, but that's honestly the least any good Z-move user should be able to do (Tapu Lele, Kyurem-B, Magearna, to hell with Volc). Scouting for sets is also rather easy given the damage output difference between its offensive and defensive sets, by how much damage you deal to opposing Landos, and whether or not it prioritizes setting Stealth Rock over spamming U-Turn.

I'd also like to mention Lando-T's presence actually promotes diversity in the tier. Being so good at soft-checking other pokes by virtue of Intimidate frees up spots in my team for pokes who don't have to be there to solely deal with a smaller subset of other mons or merely to set up/remove entry hazards and take hits.

(Crap, just read the post above... will not happen again)

 

[Eboera]

Just to put this thread back on topic, I'd like to float this up as a topic for people to discuss.
A pokemon that I've seen rise a bit, partially because it got a lot of fancy new toys to play with, is Kommo-o.

So far I've run 3 different sets in OU, about 7-10 games each. All of them using it's special Z move

252 atk, 252 speed, 4 Sdef, Brave
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Outrage
Pretty standard physical sweeper, it was probably the most effective and straight forward set, and other than close combat Iron Head and Outrage can be changed in and out depending on preference, Outrage STAB Dragon, Iron Head for Fairy. Poison Jab, EQ, ect ect

184 HP, 72atk, 8 spAtk, 244 Spdef, brave
- Clanging Scales
- Drain Punch
- Poison Jab
- Stealth Rocks
This has been a fun set I put together as a lead, and late game more bulky threat. get your rocks up and if you can go Clanging Scales and just do as much damage with Drain punch and Poison Jab until it get's taken down. It's really bad into Ferrothorn but you are not suppose to rocks directly into Z move. Probably my personal favorite set to use even though clearly there are better version.

252 SpAtk, 252 Speed, 4 Spdef
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- HP Poison/ Ground
- Flamethrower
Probably the best set to deal with Ferrothorn, but other than that, it's a special variation of Kommo-o, it works, I don't like it as much but it's more effective than my bulky agro lead set.

** I should probably put how each set did.
1. 5-3
2. 6-6
3. 4-1

 

[ZiodyneDX]

Another Pokemon that could beat the Stakataka/Cresillia combo that was being discussed earlier is M-Gyrados with Taunt, Crunch and Earthquake. However then it will have to forgo a water STAB move to run DD

 

[Lotus]

Eboera Kommo-O was something I have been talking about with my friends for a while because it got a spotlight due to its new Z-move. But unfortunately I do not believe it will have much use in overused tier.
It lacks power even after the boost.

252+ Atk Kommo-o Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Assume this is Unaware Clefable.

Even outsides Clefable, there are many Fairy-types out there like Tapu Fini or Choice Scarf Tapu Lele which can easily revenge kill Kommo-O. Also I have heard that Kommo-O's Z-move will not give boosts if it was used against Fairy-types. And don't you think having Brave nature is quite counterproductive when you are trying to sweep with Kommo-O? I would say something like Naughty / Naive natures are good options since they don't reduce damage of your moves while you keep your speed as high as you can. Also Magearna with Assault Vest, while it will take lots of damage in the process, can live any hit barring Close Combat after the boost maybe.

I am not trying to sound rude, but the sets you have posted seems to be outclassed by other Dragon-type Pokemon like Zygarde, Dragonite, or Salamence. Sets you posted are still interesting set that can function as late-game cleaner but I think Victini outclasses in that aspect too.

 

[Eboera]

Eboera Kommo-O was something I have been talking about with my friends for a while because it got a spotlight due to its new Z-move. But unfortunately I do not believe it will have much use in overused tier.
It lacks power even after the boost.

252+ Atk Kommo-o Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Even outsides Clefable, there are many Fairy-types out there like Tapu Fini or Choice Scarf Tapu Lele which can easily revenge kill Kommo-O. Also I have heard that Kommo-O's Z-move will not give boosts if it was used against Fairy-types. And don't you think having Brave nature is quite counterproductive when you are trying to sweep with Kommo-O? I would say something like Naughty / Naive natures are good options since they don't reduce damage of your moves while you keep your speed as high as you can. Also Magearna with Assault Vest, while it will take lots of damage in the process, can live any hit barring Close Combat after the boost maybe.

I am not trying to sound rude, but the sets you have posted seems to be outclassed by other Dragon-type Pokemon like Zygarde, Dragonite, or Salamence. They are still interesting set that can function as late-game cleaner but I think Victini outclasses in that aspect too.

Correct on if the Z move targets a fairy, you not only get the boost but your Z Move get's used up sooooooo that sucks.
I found a lot of more bulky sets serve Kommo-o better, because it's in an awkward speed tier even after the boost where it's not faster than most revenge killer or sweepers, but it's to fast for a trick room. Even if you go bulky and Brave where you drop it's speed, it still to fast for a trick room. It's a neat mon though, and you can see that it was like 10 stat points in a single category away from being OU.

 

[ZiodyneDX]

Oh Komono-o... Dragon/Fighting would have been an absolutely incredible typing offensively and defensively.... If we were still back in Gen V.

But now I cannot see how the new pseudo-legendary can find footing iwith the Tapu's, Mimikyu and many other fairy types frolicking around in the current meta. Unless you give it some serious support to keep anything Fairy from getting close to it anyway

 

[minusleaf]

Eboera Kommo-O was something I have been talking about with my friends for a while because it got a spotlight due to its new Z-move. But unfortunately I do not believe it will have much use in overused tier.
It lacks power even after the boost.

I've actually had quite a bit of success using Kommo-O. Using its Clangorous Soulblaze Z-Move (effective at forcing switches) and adding a Dragon Dance to the mix (why did I bother with Automotize in the first place) makes it really hard to revenge kill and one shots most relevant fast pokemon (use Poison Jab instead as most relevant fairies are Tapus and are all vulnerable to poison). Given its natural bulk, it would have to be pretty damn weakened to be picked off by priority (Weavile's CB Ice Shard does 42% at most given +1 defense) and also has a very easy time setting up in front of Heatran, Ferrothorn, Zapdos (HP Ice does lol damage), and Tyranitar, whose usage is going up due to being a good check to Blacephalon. Having Bulletproof as an ability is pretty clutch given how spammable Shadow Ball is as a move. AV Magearna straight up dies to a +2 Close Combat after a little bit of prior damage with a +Spd nature and Landos do not like a +1 Clanging Scales, so it can hit hard on both sides of the spectrum when needed. Unaware Pokemon are a problem, yes, but that's because they only exist to stop set-up sweepers and aren't common enough outside of stall to warrant much worry.

Your point on it being outclassed by other Dragon-type sweepers isn't very valid. Salamence is checked by plenty of Pokemon even after a boost, Dragonite is slow as molasses, and that's not to mention Stealth Rock makes it easier to revenge kill each of them of which Kommo-O resists. Zygarde's a different story, though, but what I'm saying is that Kommo-O is not as bad as you make it out to be.

 

[Lotus]

I agree that I was wrong on the last part. Kommo-O has that useful resistance to Stealth Rock and has bulk to set up on passive Pokemon like Ferrothron. Now that I have done some calculations, it looks like Kommo-O can be differentiated from other Dragon-types because it can effectively run mixed stats.

Probably it is the most ideal to run it under sufficient team support, such as Aurora Veil from Ninetales-A. Slapping in Substitute might be handy because you can set up on Toxapex's face but that means we are giving up on one move which is going to hurt.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Kommo-O definitely has potential. It's got the movepool and mixed attacking stats to gives its counters a headache.

Clefable and Fini's uninvested Moonblast still has a high chance to OHKO even at +1 SpDef.

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Kommo-o: 252-300 (86.5 - 103%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously Koko and scarf Lele revenge it easily too. There are probably too many strong Fairies in the tier for Kommo-o to be really threatening.

What I saw is a dude getting clowned on for his opinion with valid points with context about centralization and teambuilding constraint because of his slowpoke avatar and being told corny shit like "respect your intelligence." Then the pack of posters that typically hound on one different opinion in an attempt to invalidate it. This looks incredibly whack especially when the guy made no indication of actually trolling and fighting an uphill battle against the toxicity of this thread. How many replays and calcs would you want when his point is predominately based on usage to begin with. Like come on be real here.

Edit: his learn to read statement was justified because again you're asking for calcs for a point based on overcentralization and its easy to make a somewhat emotional statement like that when you get hounded with the same opinion told in 10 different ways.

It's okay, I got called dumb and had all my posts deleted for suggesting Serp would be too good for UU.

Anyway, I guess this is not the place for this discussion so I won't bring it up again.

 

[MANNAT]

I'm sure many of you guys have been waiting for this post since I've been gassing up offensive Rotom-Wash lately and here it is!

Rotom-Wash @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog

A lot of people have been claiming that Rotom-Wash is "overhyped" lately, but I think it's because they're using the wrong set. People are focusing on making Rotom into a defensive pivot when I think its abilities as an offensive pivot are much more valuable in this metagame and it really shouldn't be used as your primary switch in for very much at all. With an offensive set, Rotom can still get hazards off the field vs Lando-T, Toxapex, and Heatran while actually having an offensive presence to properly threaten some of the tier's bulkier hazard setters that otherwise would be able to get free hazards vs it in Ferrothorn and Clefable. Aside from just pressuring bulkier hazard setters more, Rotom-Wash can also wear down defensive Pokemon that don't mind taking Volt Switches that much like Toxapex a lot faster with its increased damage output. Additionally, this set can be huge in late game scenarios where you can't afford to miss Hydro Pump or you just need to snipe an offensive threat coming in to get the advantage in the sac game. Obviously you only get one Hydro Vortex per game, but I really want to stress its ability to completely wipe offensive threats off of the board later in games. This thing is probably my favorite mon right now, it's a ton of fun to use :]

Calcs

252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 192-228 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 295-348 (108.8 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKOalth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 253-298 (84 - 99%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 298-352 (118.7 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 327-385 (125.2 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 280-331 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 363-427 (129.1 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[readytolose]

Kommo-o's only good (I use that somewhat lightly) set in OU uses both Dragon Dance and Clanging Scales. Like seriously I cannot properly articulate how much this thing improves once you add Dragon Dance to it. Having Dragon Dance is imperative in order to punish people playing around the Z-Move and actually outspeed scarfers when at +2. It also lets it actually take advantage of the increased bulk to set up more. Last moves should be Close Combat and probably Earthquake or Poison Jab. Earthquake covers a few fairy types like Koko, Diancie and Magearna and does more to Toxapex too. I've used CC more than Drain Punch, I imagine Drain Punch is too weak most of the time. DD is amazing because the threat of the Z-move can really force the opponent's hand and cause them to potentially throw away their Koko/whatever and get swept.

It's been rightfully criticized for being really weak for a sweeper and having a bad speed tier, but it makes up for it by having a lot of set-up opportunities and generally being fat as fuck. Like, at +1 defense it takes 30% from defensive Lando-T's earthquake letting it just dd up more if it really wants to (HP Ice does less). It sets up on stuff like Tyranitar, Blacephalon (w/ bulletproof), Ferrothorn, Greninja not locked into Ice Beam, Heatran, Stakataka, really any physical attacker that can't hit it super-effectively. In my experience this mon does nothing against bulky balance teams, like it lacks the power to break Toxapex without getting hazed, it can't do anything to Clefable, pretty much any bulky mon can check it easily. But against offense where it can kill off something with the Z-move it becomes really difficult to revenge outside of a fairy move. Like even scarf greninja's Ice beam is a roll to 2HKO at +1 SpDef which is hilarious. Really this mon is a lot of fun and I feel like it's received some unfair flak from good players who haven't tried it yet. That said it's by no means amazing. I will admit I may have expounded a bit much on this mon, but I think it's a more than a gimmick. But not too much more.

 

[Siggu]

As much as I'd like it to work in OU, I don't think Clamorous Soulblaze Kommo-o has any place here. All but two Fairies are slower than it (Tapu Fini has the same base Speed) just in case they want to switch into that Clamorous Soulblaze, while unboosted Poison Jab fails to reliably OHKO anything other than Tapu Bulu (and has an impossible matchup with Clefable) if Kommo-o is carrying a Kommonium Z (so you can't even lure them). And Tapu Fini can avoid the 2HKO after Rocks, so it can even risk losing the speed tie.

However, with, at the very least, an Expert Belt...

Hopeless calcs vs fairies

252+ Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 150-178 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 180-214 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 216-256 (76.8 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 259-307 (92.1 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 235-278 (83.6 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 180-214 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (if Magic Guard)
252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 180-214 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (if Unaware)

If Kommo-o has any chance of being worth using in OU, it would be something like this IMO.

Kommo-o @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch / Earthquake

The new thing with Kommo-o is its significantly improved physical movepool thanks to Close Combat and the elemental punches, giving it coverage most other physically attacking dragons lack. It's... pretty much a faster and stronger Scrafty which is neat given what they have that separates them from other Fighting-type Pokemon, namely the means to raise both Speed and Attack at once (if only Kommo-o had High Jump Kick)

Close Combat and Poison Jab are non-negotiable - +1 Kommo-o outspeeds all fairies bar Scarf Lele so you can Dragon Dance on a switch and Poison Jab them back to whatever kalosian hell they came from.

The last slot is a toss-up on what you wish to beat, considering that thing always beats you if without the move. Ice Punch is obviously for Landorus-T, while Earthquake is for Toxapex, as well as Magearna, the only other fairy Poison Jab can't take out. Similarly, there's the choice between Expert Belt and Life Orb - safety or overall damage boost.

Expert Belt vs Life Orb and Ice Punch vs Earthquake

252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 307-365 (80.3 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kommo-o Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 333-395 (87.1 - 103.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Kommo-o Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 231-273 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Expert Belt Kommo-o Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 338-401 (96.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(no need to show Life Orb calcs vs Magearna)

Overcoat is the better ability as it gives Kommo-o decent Aurora Veil potential, making it immune to Hail damage.

 

[Lotus]

I'm sure many of you guys have been waiting for this post since I've been gassing up offensive Rotom-Wash lately and here it is!

Rotom-Wash @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog

A lot of people have been claiming that Rotom-Wash is "overhyped" lately, but I think it's because they're using the wrong set. People are focusing on making Rotom into a defensive pivot when I think its abilities as an offensive pivot are much more valuable in this metagame and it really shouldn't be used as your primary switch in for very much at all. With an offensive set, Rotom can still get hazards off the field vs Lando-T, Toxapex, and Heatran while actually having an offensive presence to properly threaten some of the tier's bulkier hazard setters that otherwise would be able to get free hazards vs it in Ferrothorn and Clefable. Aside from just pressuring bulkier hazard setters more, Rotom-Wash can also wear down defensive Pokemon that don't mind taking Volt Switches that much like Toxapex a lot faster with its increased damage output. Additionally, this set can be huge in late game scenarios where you can't afford to miss Hydro Pump or you just need to snipe an offensive threat coming in to get the advantage in the sac game. Obviously you only get one Hydro Vortex per game, but I really want to stress its ability to completely wipe offensive threats off of the board later in games. This thing is probably my favorite mon right now, it's a ton of fun to use :]

Calcs

252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 192-228 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 295-348 (108.8 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKOalth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 253-298 (84 - 99%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 298-352 (118.7 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 327-385 (125.2 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 280-331 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 363-427 (129.1 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I didn't know how to quote a post until now.

Anyways, I really like your creativity. This Rotom is totally outside the box by being offensive. This would definitely fit in offensive teams that appreciate Rotom luring and weakening the likes of Ferrothorn, doing some chip damage dealt on Toxapex, while reliably being able to use Defog on stuff like defensive Landorus-T. This set looks like it will struggle a lot against Tangrowth with Assault Vest, but I still like how this Rotom can fit in offensive teams and be a safety net against stuff like Pinsir, Heatran, and Mega Charizard X, while letting its teammates run more effective sets by being able use Defog. Lack of recovery sucks but I still like this.

 

[Finchinator]

I'm sure many of you guys have been waiting for this post since I've been gassing up offensive Rotom-Wash lately and here it is!

Rotom-Wash @ Waterium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog

A lot of people have been claiming that Rotom-Wash is "overhyped" lately, but I think it's because they're using the wrong set. People are focusing on making Rotom into a defensive pivot when I think its abilities as an offensive pivot are much more valuable in this metagame and it really shouldn't be used as your primary switch in for very much at all. With an offensive set, Rotom can still get hazards off the field vs Lando-T, Toxapex, and Heatran while actually having an offensive presence to properly threaten some of the tier's bulkier hazard setters that otherwise would be able to get free hazards vs it in Ferrothorn and Clefable. Aside from just pressuring bulkier hazard setters more, Rotom-Wash can also wear down defensive Pokemon that don't mind taking Volt Switches that much like Toxapex a lot faster with its increased damage output. Additionally, this set can be huge in late game scenarios where you can't afford to miss Hydro Pump or you just need to snipe an offensive threat coming in to get the advantage in the sac game. Obviously you only get one Hydro Vortex per game, but I really want to stress its ability to completely wipe offensive threats off of the board later in games. This thing is probably my favorite mon right now, it's a ton of fun to use :]

Calcs

252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 192-228 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 295-348 (108.8 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKOalth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 253-298 (84 - 99%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 298-352 (118.7 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 327-385 (125.2 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 280-331 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 363-427 (129.1 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 122-146 (40.1 - 48%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This set is really cool and I'm glad you posted it; I've been using something similar myself over the past week or so when I have gotten the chance to play and it has insane utility. I think that the ability to beat pretty much the entire hazard setting metagame is great and something that other offensive, momentum generating defoggers lack the ability to do. On top of that, the damage output on Hydro Vortex and even HP Fire is so surprisingly high in contrast to that of the normal, tank Rotom-W set. I strongly recommend trying this on bulky-offense/offensive teams that can fit it and take advantage of the offensive presence + utility it brings.

Let's keep our existential quarrels with Smogon and off-topic posts out of this thread, by the way.

 

[mertyville]

What do buys think about:

UB-Burst@Scarf
Modest
252 Spe / 252 Spa / 6 SpD
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic/Psyshock/Trick?
- Flamethrower
?

Per kill with Overheat you lose only one point in Special attack. You don't get worn down as fast like with Mind Blown and it is more likely to hit than Fire Blast. Flamethrower could be used to pick on weakened foes to pick up quickly on Special attack boosts with Beast Boost. Or you can just run Fire Blast regardless in the last slot too.

 

[Altervisi]

What do buys think about:

UB-Burst@Scarf
Modest
252 Spe / 252 Spa / 6 SpD
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic/Psyshock/Trick?
- Flamethrower
?

Per kill with Overheat you lose only one point in Special attack. You don't get worn down as fast like with Mind Blown and it is more likely to hit than Fire Blast. Flamethrower could be used to pick on weakened foes to pick up quickly on Special attack boosts with Beast Boost. Or you can just run Fire Blast regardless in the last slot too.

I haven't run calcs but do you know of any situation where Blace is getting a KO with Overheat and not with Fire/thrower? It seems to hurt momentum to point where Mind Blown is more worth it for the extra damage, KO'ing AV Magearna and you won't be wanting to swap much as Blace is more late game and weak to rocks. I think Hidden Power Ice is well worth running for hitting Landorus-T for a OHKO and the others 4x weak to Ice, or HP Ground to get nice damage on non-SpDef Heatran and Ttar.

Also with Scarf you should be running Timid or you're outsped by the top speed tiers, and pretty much all other Scarfers.