Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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Martin

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This argument about Knock Off is extremely retarded (KOff is rare+not great, but at the same time KOff fits onto defensive sometimes just like how ot fits onto Scarf sets; both sides are partially wrong; end of discussion) and whether Xatu, the D rank niche hazard control mon, is usable does not deserve this much arguing over, so I’m just gonna cut it abruptly short to talk about some mons/sets that I’ve been using recently and am either really liking or kinda liking ish.


Tapu Koko @ Light Clay
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Volt Switch

Screens Koko is nice just because screens are totally borked. I can not overstate just how great they are as utility for offensive teams, and being able to turn stuff like Hawlucha, Volcarona etc. into unstoppable beasts by giving them 2 turns of setup on a consistent basis while also putting heavy pressure onto people who try to abuse Koko’s e-terrain with their own lucha under immense pressure thanks to Reflect+the threat of Volt Switch) is an extremely scary thing for a lot of team to deal with. Hell, it’s nice for more than just helping setup attackers; it can save the skins of Pokemon like Lando who would otherwise drop to HP Ice, the combo of Reflect it+Bulu’s terrain is enough to allow Heatran to fear nothing from Lando-T of all things; being able to functionally negate super-effective hits and to make all other moves functionally resisted is totally insane. just generally having pressure taken off of pivots and other bulky attackers allows them to wreak havoc versus teams, which is immense tbh. There are just so many reasons that this mon is great, so give it a try and see what you can do with it. EVs just underspeed opposing Koko without sacrificing the ability to use Reflect or Volt Switch before Weavile can knock your Light Clay off.


Magnezone @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This is a neat Magnezone set that I’ve been fucking around with earlier today that allows it to do a few things. It can take the combo of Psychic STAB+non-Z Focus Blast from Tapu Lele (or Z-Focus from near-full health) and and KO back with Flash Cannon and is generally super nice vs other ‘mons like Alakazam, Lopunny (the latter is lured out) etc. which Magnezone is able to cripple with Thunder Wave as well as giving Zone more freedom to mess Bulu around. All in all it’s pretty dirty in general. Also allows Magnezone to directly switch into, trap and remove Kartana without needing to lock itself into HP Fire with Choice Scarf ‘cuz it means ur opp can’t just casually set up on you with their Lucha or whatever, which is extremely nice in general. The listed EVs creep 60 Spe Scizor (and, by extension, adamant Azumarill/Mawile) so that the set can net a little extra bulk to help vs shit like Specs Lele and to improve comfort vs Kartana, but realistically speaking you will be having creep wars with SD Mega Scizor, so do bare that in mind and creep as much as you feel is worth creeping. Like I said, I only started pissing around with this set earlier today, so I’ve not had a good chance to get any replays of this set doing goodshit, but it’s mad as hell and has saved my skin a few times now.

+

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Stone Edge

PinsirZone is super duper nice in general; being able to BTFO people who rely on Zapdos as their only answer to Flying types pwns so hard, and birdspam is actually really potent in general IMO with Zone support; whether it be something pretty bog-standard like SEdge Pinsir+SubElectrium Zone+Lucha or something a bit more fun+less mainstream like Pinsir+Zone+Mence, Pinsir+Zone+Gyara or Pinsir+Zone+DNite or whatever, a lot of teams really struggle to take it on consistently with the correct support. Hell, even just Pinsir+Zone+a cleaner/breaker that needs Lando+Rotom+Zapdos+whatever else weakened/removed is solid—something like Pinsir+Zone+Lando/Mamo or even just Pinsir+Zyg is mad. Pinsir is a good mon. Use it.

Also got some stuff that could work (but probably won’t) that I’m probably gonna piss around with on mid ladder over the next few days that have some nice on-paper utility in hide tags below if u wanna take a look; all the stuff in there is pure theorymon tho and as suxh you need to take them with a giant tablespoon of salt ‘cuz I’ve not had a chance to fuck with ‘em yet and ‘cuz I’m probably a bit cuckoo, so don’t make them discussion points lol.


Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 200 HP / 188 SpA / 16 SpD / 104 Spe OR 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch

Noticeably less specially bulky than AV Zone but also much physically bulkier, helping it in the MU vs, like, Bulu and Kart and shit. Still gotta work out more efficient EVs, but on paper it still traps Celesteela consistently while being able to tank shit like unboosted adamant bulu superpower from full and unboosted kart’s Sacred Sword. Obviously still gotta figure out some prolly-better EV spreads, but the first spread outruns 60 speed Zor (for speed creep wars), OHKOs 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor with HP Fire after prior damage equivalent of SR+1 Spike, and maxes out overall bulk according to this tool (+1 Def/SpD modifiers and 216 remaining EVs)—allowing Magneto to take the combo of Leaf Blade+Sacred Sword from unboosted Kartana 100% of the time from full health—whereas the second spread outruns anything that creeps adamant Tar, which in turn lets it outrun the absolute fastest Mega Scizor spread that anyone sane (i.e. not me) would run—something Magnezone can’t achieve. You can do creep wars with defensive Lando-T if you want too, although at that point you may as well run max Speed to tie with, like, ada Bisharp and modest Volcanion and an item other than Evio to take better advantage of the faster/less bulky spread.


Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Sounds pretty decent on paper; can one-shot SpD Pex from full which is chill AF and is blazing fast+has ways of circumventing Scarf Lando. Prolly needs plenty of support tho.
 
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Ok lets say you pull off magic bounce, then they just defog. Its not a big deal. And if someone sees Xatu on your team, they are not going to throw rocks or spikes anyway unless they are a bad player.
Yeah but them not throwing out Spikes or Rocks is a good thing for you and actually the main reason you would use xatu so i dont get ur point
 

A

Joker fan
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Alright, moving on. Here's a slept on option on Landorus-T and it's been great with extensive playtesting.



Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic

(Run Protect if you really wanna 1v1 Hawlucha and have a rocker in the back. Generally recommended. Sr is okay if you wanna cripple Hawlu and have a backup strat in the back say Ash Greninja)

I am loving Protox Landorus so far, it effortlessly manhandles Hawlucha, guarantees eating Zyg (tect blocks the Z move), and Toxic puts a huge strain on Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, and especially Zapdos, which Pokemon like Kartana, Pinsir, Scizor, and Hawlucha appreciate. Tect lets you keep the upper hand vs Ash Greninja, and even buffers vs SD Explosion Lando which is huge. It is far from perfect, but it has been really solid for what it does.
 
Alright, moving on. Here's a slept on option on Landorus-T and it's been great with extensive playtesting.



Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic

(Run Protect if you really wanna 1v1 Hawlucha and have a rocker in the back. Generally recommended. Sr is okay if you wanna cripple Hawlu and have a backup strat in the back say Ash Greninja)

I am loving Protox Landorus so far, it effortlessly manhandles Hawlucha, guarantees eating Zyg (tect blocks the Z move), and Toxic puts a huge strain on Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, and especially Zapdos, which Pokemon like Kartana, Pinsir, Scizor, and Hawlucha appreciate. Tect lets you keep the upper hand vs Ash Greninja, and even buffers vs SD Explosion Lando which is huge. It is far from perfect, but it has been really solid for what it does.
I like this set, as much as it pains me to have even more splashability on Landog, I'll take any answer to KokoLucha at this point. I find it really hard to justify Def Lando without Rocks tho, it just gets a ridiculous number of opportunities to set up. That being said, a core of this and SpDef Heatran looks very appealing, having that as your setter and answer to Steel types which can't be Toxic'd, as well as appreciating Intimidate to make it a lot easier to swap in. Of course, the type synergy is defensively pretty lit, especially with this Lando set beating Zygarde and Hawlucha for Tran. Obviously you'd need a water type answer. Maybe Yache Berry could be slashed? Tanking a HP [Ice] from things in order to freely Toxic them (or stall out 2 more turns if you catch them on the switch), though I'm sure Leftovers are super good with the Protect turns.
 

Martin

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Honestly non-SR defensive Lando-T is totally fine when you build it into your team properly; as much as it gets a lot of opportunities to set them there are loads of other Pokemon that you could say the same about which Lando pairs extremely well with–Heatran, like Altervisi said, is one of them (although I'm not huge on SpD Tran in this meta and think that max Spe timid is probably better just 'cuz opposing Trans are bastards and 'cuz of that feel when you lose to the one SD bulu on the ladder), but other good examples also include Ferrothorn, Clefable, Chansey, and Mega TTar. Often when a person sees a Heatran or Clefable or w/e on a Lando team they will assume that they are the rocker anyway until they see that the lando is defensive at which point they assume other utility or coverage>SR, which in turn allows you to play mindgames with them due to the way that they're conditioned to think that defensive lando = SR lando, affecting the way that they will play the game over the few turns before they realise that Lando doesn't actually have SR–which is more than enough time for you to generate an opportunity to lay with your actual setter. Just being able to carry Toxic for like Lucha/Zapdos/etc. without sacrificing the ability to run Hidden Power for Scizor/Kart or for opposing Lando/Zygarde is incredibly handy in general in cases where that utility and role compression is really needed, and teambuilding in the tier is versatile enough that you can afford to do that. This isn't me saying that I'm expressly happy with the state of teambuilding in this meta–far from it–but there are still plenty of options for variety like this which allow sets like this to flourish.
 
I like this set, as much as it pains me to have even more splashability on Landog, I'll take any answer to KokoLucha at this point. I find it really hard to justify Def Lando without Rocks tho, it just gets a ridiculous number of opportunities to set up. That being said, a core of this and SpDef Heatran looks very appealing, having that as your setter and answer to Steel types which can't be Toxic'd, as well as appreciating Intimidate to make it a lot easier to swap in. Of course, the type synergy is defensively pretty lit, especially with this Lando set beating Zygarde and Hawlucha for Tran. Obviously you'd need a water type answer. Maybe Yache Berry could be slashed? Tanking a HP [Ice] from things in order to freely Toxic them (or stall out 2 more turns if you catch them on the switch), though I'm sure Leftovers are super good with the Protect turns.
Set seems to work fine with ferrothorn setting up rocks or spikes.
All out attack lando-t
Defog
Knock off
Fly-move for supersonic skystrike
earth quake

Set also can remove knock off for u-turn
as you can see though for lando-t, you don't need rocks for it, even chansey can run rocks or clefable
Other then that Im just going to ignore users from now on, with narcissistic elitist mind set.
 
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Speaking about Dual Screens there's onde mon i like using sometimes since it's about the only one that can afford to set Screens up and still retains it's main niche and purpose:

Serperior @ Light Clay
Ability: Contrary
Evs: 4 HP / 252 SPA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-Leaf Storm
-Hidden Power Fire

I know, this mon isn't exactly really good, but screens fits almost perfectly on it's movepool without "giving up" on what is supposed to do. Leaf Storm and Hidden Power are commonly its only attacking options anyway, and Contrary Leaf Storm compresses the movepool so Seprerior can use anything it wants to on the remaining 2 slots. While people often choose SubSeed and some goes for Z-Hyper Beam, why not going for screens? Serperior main niche is untouched but it can also support if needed.
 

Finchinator

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Speaking about Dual Screens there's onde mon i like using sometimes since it's about the only one that can afford to set Screens up and still retains it's main niche and purpose:

Serperior @ Light Clay
Ability: Contrary
Evs: 4 HP / 252 SPA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-Leaf Storm
-Hidden Power Fire

I know, this mon isn't exactly really good, but screens fits almost perfectly on it's movepool without "giving up" on what is supposed to do. Leaf Storm and Hidden Power are commonly its only attacking options anyway, and Contrary Leaf Storm compresses the movepool so Seprerior can use anything it wants to on the remaining 2 slots. While people often choose SubSeed and some goes for Z-Hyper Beam, why not going for screens? Serperior main niche is untouched but it can also support if needed.
While I do think there are a number of interesting exploits that can be found throughout the OU metagame when it comes to role compression and combining of niches, I feel as if this is not an optimal, nor necessarily effective one in practice. Generally speaking, the best setter of dual screens is Tapu Koko, which is thanks to higher base Speed, the ability to run Taunt to stop opposing Defog and set-up, and the ability to run U-turn to pivot out, thus giving momentum to a Pokemon that can abuse the screens being set and perhaps saving Tapu Koko to set up again later on.

In addition, Serperior's best place in OU right now is as a balance breaker/offensive threat. While it is far from common, let alone particularly effective on a consistent basis, the Substitute + Leech Seed and Z Hyper Beam variants are all that sees usage and without the former to increase longevity, pressure common counterplay, and take away opposing momentum or the latter to give a direct, offensive answer to common opposing counterplay, Serperior really has little-to-no actual niche in the tier as the minimal effectivness and niche it did have is taken away. This set itself seems interesting, but it feels like you are trying to do too much and compromising the actual potential your Pokemon has.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
If You want to use it, You want it for its high speed utitly grass typing

I really think running bulk on it ,speed creeping what Your team needs is the way to go. Then abuse taunt/glare/hp fire based on what Your team really needs and really You don't need to use leaf storm very often unless You think there's a 2 hit ko anyhow because it's easy to play around with most teams if that's its focus
 
There's a pokemon I used in these days and I really liked it so I wanted to have ur thoughts on it:


Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Drill Run
- Knock Off
I feel like Mega Beedrill is a really underrated mon, having knock off means u can remove rocky helmet / Leftovers from lando or Shed shell from skarmory which makes trapping it easier, while chipping lando is really easy, especially if u koff rocky helmet, having u-turn as a stab is really cool because u can rkill mons with it while taking momentum, while its bad defense makes it easy to rkill via priority it has a decent spdef which lets it even live specs water shuriken from ash ninja, 145 base speed lets it outspeed greninja and koko and poison stab is really nice on the tapu meta, Drill run lets u not be walled by heatran while also having a nice chance to 2HKO magearna, while it has bad defense its typing may be handy as it resists x4 both fighting and grass so it come on bulu while taking around 30% with wood hammer and recovering life thanks to its grassy terrein and not be rkilled too easily by scarftana even if rocks weakness sucks a bit... I toyed a bit with the volturn core Mega Beedrill + Rotom-Wash, rotom wash threatens ground types which can't directly switch on it so they usually have to go to grass types but that's when the volturn begins, u volt switch on their grass type and go beedrill, u force it out and u u-turn or koff on its check which usually is Landorus-therian, Celesteela, Gliscor or Skarmory, all of them which can be kind of forced out by rotom-wash permitting to volt switch again, also rotom-wash being able to slow pivot is really good as u can volt switch on things like mew as it defogs and let beedrill come safely, another cool mon with mbeedrill is magnezone as beedrill's ability to koff shed shell from skarmory can really help magnezone to trap kill it, also magnezone traps the biggest counters of mbee as scizor, celesteela and skarmory... after losing skarmory stall isn't really going to have an easy time to mbee as even gliscor can't come in safely because of knock off while it also is volt switch bait from rotom-wash.
 
There's a pokemon I used in these days and I really liked it so I wanted to have ur thoughts on it:


Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Drill Run
- Knock Off
I feel like Mega Beedrill is a really underrated mon, having knock off means u can remove rocky helmet / Leftovers from lando or Shed shell from skarmory which makes trapping it easier, while chipping lando is really easy, especially if u koff rocky helmet, having u-turn as a stab is really cool because u can rkill mons with it while taking momentum, while its bad defense makes it easy to rkill via priority it has a decent spdef which lets it even live specs water shuriken from ash ninja, 145 base speed lets it outspeed greninja and koko and poison stab is really nice on the tapu meta, Drill run lets u not be walled by heatran while also having a nice chance to 2HKO magearna, while it has bad defense its typing may be handy as it resists x4 both fighting and grass so it come on bulu while taking around 30% with wood hammer and recovering life thanks to its grassy terrein and not be rkilled too easily by scarftana even if rocks weakness sucks a bit... I toyed a bit with the volturn core Mega Beedrill + Rotom-Wash, rotom wash threatens ground types which can't directly switch on it so they usually have to go to grass types but that's when the volturn begins, u volt switch on their grass type and go beedrill, u force it out and u u-turn or koff on its check which usually is Landorus-therian, Celesteela, Gliscor or Skarmory, all of them which can be kind of forced out by rotom-wash permitting to volt switch again, also rotom-wash being able to slow pivot is really good as u can volt switch on things like mew as it defogs and let beedrill come safely, another cool mon with mbeedrill is magnezone as beedrill's ability to koff shed shell from skarmory can really help magnezone to trap kill it, also magnezone traps the biggest counters of mbee as scizor, celesteela and skarmory... after losing skarmory stall isn't really going to have an easy time to mbee as even gliscor can't come in safely because of knock off while it also is volt switch bait from rotom-wash.
Unfortunately Beedrill is comepletely invalidated by a number of top OU threats, while Knock Off can be pretty handy, it's still doing less than 20% to Landorus-T, which can in turn OHKO it with Earthquake. It can do some damage against Heatran and Magearna sure, but it can't switch in to a Magma Storm and taking a Fluer Cannon then Iron Head from Magearna is a KO. It can't even 2HKO Pex with Black Sludge, so the Burn threat is real. There's so much else it is beaten by and it will be too long and obvious to explain them all, so I'll just list all the mons in A that beat it easily. +1 Volcarona, Zygarde, Ferrothorn, Ash-Greninja (Shuriken after Rocks), Scarf Tapu Lele, Celesteela, Hawlucha, Mega-Scizor, Gliscor, Scarf Greninja, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Zapdos (defensive). All very common mons right now.

So to use Beedrill you have to avoid taking a hit which means constantly pivoting in and out, which is fine except everyone is running Rocks+Spikes now, which Beedrill is extremely vulnerable to, particularly as it is weak to Rock type, so it can't really even fulfill this role effectively.

Edit: Bolded to emphasize this is the better point lol. I listed these mons to show that it is required that Beedrill constantly pivots, which is why the bolded text is so important. While I agree with Pokepals, I'd say meet half way, as my perspective what more what will Beedrill switch into, his being what can switch into it. Sorry, MultiAmmiratore you still a G tho.

Magnezone @ Chople Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This is a neat Magnezone set that I’ve been fucking around with earlier today that allows it to do a few things. It can take the combo of Psychic STAB+non-Z Focus Blast from Tapu Lele (or Z-Focus from near-full health) and and KO back with Flash Cannon and is generally super nice vs other ‘mons like Alakazam, Lopunny (the latter is lured out) etc. which Magnezone is able to cripple with Thunder Wave as well as giving Zone more freedom to mess Bulu around. All in all it’s pretty dirty in general. Also allows Magnezone to directly switch into, trap and remove Kartana without needing to lock itself into HP Fire with Choice Scarf ‘cuz it means ur opp can’t just casually set up on you with their Lucha or whatever, which is extremely nice in general. The listed EVs creep 60 Spe Scizor (and, by extension, adamant Azumarill/Mawile) so that the set can net a little extra bulk to help vs shit like Specs Lele and to improve comfort vs Kartana, but realistically speaking you will be having creep wars with SD Mega Scizor, so do bare that in mind and creep as much as you feel is worth creeping. Like I said, I only started pissing around with this set earlier today, so I’ve not had a good chance to get any replays of this set doing goodshit, but it’s mad as hell and has saved my skin a few times now.
How did I miss this last time I read this thread? Lowkey I think this could possibly become the new standard Magnezone set, Scarf absolutely sucks for this mon but Kartana's prevalence right now makes it necessary for your Zone to have some way to beat it. Thunder Wave is also really nice tech right now with everything being so goddamn fast, will definitely use this.
 
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TPP

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Head TD
Unfortunately Beedrill is comepletely invalidated by a number of top OU threats, while Knock Off can be pretty handy, it's still doing less than 20% to Landorus-T, which can in turn OHKO it with Earthquake. It can do some damage against Heatran and Magearna sure, but it can't switch in to a Magma Storm and taking a Fluer Cannon then Iron Head from Magearna is a KO. It can't even 2HKO Pex with Black Sludge, so the Burn threat is real. There's so much else it is beaten by and it will be too long and obvious to explain them all, so I'll just list all the mons in A that beat it easily. +1 Volcarona, Zygarde, Ferrothorn, Ash-Greninja (Shuriken after Rocks), Scarf Tapu Lele, Celesteela, Hawlucha, Mega-Scizor, Gliscor, Scarf Greninja, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Zapdos (defensive). All very common mons right now.

So to use Beedrill you have to avoid taking a hit which means constantly pivoting in and out, which is fine except everyone is running Rocks+Spikes now, which Beedrill is extremely vulnerable to, particularly as it is weak to Rock type, so it can't really even fulfill this role effectively.
Just gonna say that Mega Beedrill (when being used by the tiny number of people that use it), has a move called U-turn that lets it pivot out from threats that switch in. Yes Lando comes in, but since Scarf and Leftovers are being the more common choices, his point in utilizing Knock Off is still valid as Lando comes in and gets crippled, and can potential be worn down as Poison Jab can poison and then Stealth Rock + U-turn damage can do a good amount over time. Beedrill won't break anything by itself immediately, but being a glass cannon, it's not gonna tank anything let alone stay in against a mon that beats it 1v1.

As for the list you made, all the scarf mons and mons with priority can beat a lot of other mons they're used to revenge kill, and stuff like Volcarona at +1 and Hawlucha beat a ton of things, so I think it's a bit unfair to use them against Beedrill specifically without considering how they're used to revenge kill a lot of other common threats. I agree that a handful of defensive threats are what usually stop Beedrill from doing anything (including the most common mon in the tier in Lando-T), and I'll agree with the other ones listed, but wallbreaking isn't Beedrill's strong point, as it's a pivot meant to get other things in with a bit of power to boot.

The last point you made is the one that feels more/most appropriate for describing why Beedrill isn't good in OU. Pretty much every other Volt turn user doesn't have a rocks + spikes weakness (outside of Torn-T, which has Regenerator) and it requires a ton of support with hazards and wallbreaking and defensive teammates to compensate for it being a glass cannon. Not trying to say Beedrill is good or above decent, but wanted to point out that the last reason was a better way to explain why Beedrill struggles as opposed to naming common revenge killers and mons that handle other more viable mons in the current meta. That or mentioning a shift in the meta that promotes a higher use of counters that aren't crippled by Knock Off, as at the moment, isn't too many besides Mega Scizor since Lando and Celesteela and Ferrothorn all appreciate their items to increase their longevity.
 

A

Joker fan
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
This sounds really unorthodox but this is a really unique spin on a fairly common offensive core and is super lowkey fun.

(note youd almost always would probably want spikes and just smth else deal with bulu but this is a thing, also like you can actually gunk on its face w some chip or sr into mid roll/high roll hydro then mid-high gunk does the job, and youd probably argue that water z prot is better but water z prot cant turn into ash :( )



Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam




Greninja-Ash @ Waterium Z
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Gunk Shot
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken

"But A muh spikes!" Alright that is a very valid statement but hear me out. KokoGren in this case lure out each other's prominent defensive answers extremely well, and the sets in particular do an amazing job at that. Koko volting on Bulu, or it switching into Hydro after rocks leads to Gunk Shot deleting it entirely, and an established Battle Bond Ash that can still use its Z-move. Specs HP Fire Koko chunks Ferrothorn extremely hard, about 67% which is a big deal for the core. The loss of spikes is unfortunate for sure but the ability to establish Ash Gren off of its biggest counter is unprecedented. For what its worth, it also chunks Tangrowth a good amount and poison heavily chips it, Fini takes 42-50.1% and can potentially get 2HKOd as well, and the uncommon Mantine can potentially be outmuscled by Poison plus Dark Pulse flinches.

4 Atk Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 36+ Def Tapu Bulu: 260-308 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

(Non impish which still is fairly common just flat out dies)
 
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Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake
- Roost

Been playing with this set a bit on the ladder and it's surprising me, to be honest. People seem to forget that Zard X has a Special Attack stat that is also 130 like its Attack stat, and this allows HP Ice, with a hindering nature and no investment, to 2HKO defensive Lando-T, Gliscor, and Zygarde. For the record, with Stealth Rock up, Flare Blitz into HP Ice is a guaranteed kill vs defensive Lando-T, and even without rocks, it's still a pretty high chance to kill. Offensive sets are BTFO with the combination regardless. I've even had scenarios where I'd stay as base Charizard against Landos, as HP Ice can still 2HKO max HP variants without the need of Mega Evolution.

I haven't missed Dragon Claw yet despite it being the best move to hit the Latis on switchin, and the Water-type matchup gets a bit tricky as well without the good neutral damage, but that's why mons like Specs Dazzling Gleam Tapu Koko and Ferrothorn makes for amazing partners to this set as they can handle those pretty easily (Ferro has to watch for HP Fire Mega Lati tho), and Zard X running HP Ice allows Koko to run HP Fire as a backup for opposing Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. The only other common Dragon-type I can think of is Kyube but it just needs the smallest amount of chip damage to be killed by Flare Blitz after Stealth Rock anyways, and Garchomp, which is a rare mon at this point, is also hit hard by HP Ice thanks to 4x weakness.

I wish this mon got Ice Punch ;_;

0- SpA Charizard Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 133-157 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Charizard-Mega-X Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 236-280 (61.7 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Charizard Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 152 SpD Gliscor: 180-212 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
0- SpA Charizard-Mega-X Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 152 SpD Gliscor: 204-244 (57.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

0- SpA Charizard Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 176-208 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Charizard-Mega-X Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 204-244 (56.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Edit: here's some replays of the set in action. The last one in particular shows how you can bluff a potential Mega Charizard Y when you use HP Ice as regular Charizard to potentially throw your opponet off.

 
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So i've noticed a few things about the meta. I'll try to subdivide this post into sections - as I feel it might make it that much easier to read and not as confusing.

The Underrated



While the latest edition of the Flying Press recently showcased it, I still firmly believe that reuniclus is one of the greatest balance and stall breakers in the meta, as well as one of the most slept on threats in the tier. Reuni as a breaker possesses an incredible matchup against most of the tier - with its most notable matchups being against bulkier builds. Most common balance builds - including my own - are quite weak to reuniclus, as most balance builds lack the means to break it, even before it has started to boost. The most "reliable" answers to Reuniclus being Ash Greninja, which cannot reliably remove it - prior to its transformation, it must risk being ohko'd by signal beam or focus blast if it doesn't achieve the flinch or the appropriate roll - and the other being Banded Tyranitar, which must risk a 50 / 50 in which it risks an OHKO from Focus Blast or Reuniclus freely switching. Against stall, Focus Blast variants can easily clean once sableye has been removed. Another often overlooked set on Reuniclus is the Psychium Z set, which allows it to reliably break past Quagsire and Clefable, while still possessing the utility of a breaker, though it does miss leftovers recovery, especially when switching into the likes of lucha and mmedi.

I've found that Greninja, Ferrothorn and Toxapex are the best partners for this mon - the former especially works well with it, as Greninja provides invaluable spikes support, whilst being able to check many 'mons on offence that have the capability to break through Reuni - namely SD Kart, Volc and Ttar. Reuni's capabilities of stallbreaking is incredibly helpful to Greninja, especially being able to remove Toxapex and Chansey. With the removal of the mentioned, Greninja is able to singlehandedly break stall. Ferrothorn and Toxapex essentially serve the same role, but with different additional benefits. Both act as a stop to greninja, relieving reuni of quite alot of pressure. Ferrothorn - similarly to greninja - also provides spikes support for reuni while pex provides tspikes or toxic support.



I don't know why people consider Gastrodon to be something that should only be used in tournaments, because it does soooo much work on the ladder. Being able to effectively shut down effectively invalidate a large amount of the meta (if i'm correct, it easily handles 44 give or take of the listed mons on the vr) without much effort, while completely invalidating an entire play style, which is currently at an all time high (iirc pelipper has close to 6% usage, feel free to correct me on this) and being quite splashable, there's little reason not to use Gastrodon, especially on teams desperate for a compressed electric and water immunity. When compared to other bulky waters, it isn't as passive, especially when factoring in the special attack boost from storm drain, combined with Scald. Though toxapex gives it major competition, as it possesses fantastic physical bulk even if uninvested, the niche of being able to take on Koko and Greninja in the same slot is fantastic. Contrasting my previous statement, Gastrodon has one very notable flaw - the lack of physical bulk when uninvested and is especially detrimental against HO. Furthermore, it serves as setup bait against most psychics in the tier (notably Lele, MLatias and Hoopa), CM Waters (Suicune and Keldeo) - hell even Volc freely quivers on it, but again, these are the same problems that Toxapex faces (especially non-haze variants), so it's no big deal in the long run.
 
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So i've noticed a few things about the meta. I'll try to subdivide this post into sections - as I feel it might make it that much easier to read and not as confusing.

The Underrated



While the latest edition of the Flying Press recently showcased it, I still firmly believe that reuniclus is one of the greatest balance and stall breakers in the meta, as well as one of the most slept on threats in the tier. Reuni as a breaker possesses an incredible matchup against most of the tier - with its most notable matchups being against bulkier builds. Most common balance builds - including my own - are quite weak to reuniclus, as most balance builds lack the means to break it, even before it has started to boost. The most "reliable" answers to Reuniclus being Ash Greninja, which cannot reliably remove it - prior to its transformation, it must risk being ohko'd by signal beam or focus blast if it doesn't achieve the flinch or the appropriate roll - and the other being Banded Tyranitar, which must risk a 50 / 50 in which it risks an OHKO from Focus Blast or Reuniclus freely switching. Against stall, Focus Blast variants can easily clean once sableye has been removed. Another often overlooked set on Reuniclus is the Psychium Z set, which allows it to reliably break past Quagsire and Clefable, while still possessing the utility of a breaker, though it does miss leftovers recovery, especially when switching into the likes of lucha and mmedi.

I've found that Greninja, Ferrothorn and Toxapex are the best partners for this mon - the former especially works well with it, as Greninja provides invaluable spikes support, whilst being able to check many 'mons on offence that have the capability to break through Reuni - namely SD Kart, Volc and Ttar. Reuni's capabilities of stallbreaking is incredibly helpful to Greninja, especially being able to remove Toxapex and Chansey. With the removal of the mentioned, Greninja is able to singlehandedly break stall. Ferrothorn and Toxapex essentially serve the same role, but with different additional benefits. Both act as a stop to greninja, relieving reuni of quite alot of pressure. Ferrothorn - similarly to greninja - also provides spikes support for reuni while pex provides tspikes or toxic support.



I don't know why people consider Gastrodon to be something that should only be used in tournaments, because it does soooo much work on the ladder. Being able to effectively shut down effectively invalidate a large amount of the meta (if i'm correct, it easily handles 44 give or take of the listed mons on the vr) without much effort, while completely invalidating an entire play style, which is currently at an all time high (iirc pelipper has close to 6% usage, feel free to correct me on this) and being quite splashable, there's little reason to use Gastrodon, especially on teams desperate for a compressed electric and water immunity. When compared to other bulky waters, it isn't as passive, especially when factoring in the special attack boost from storm drain, combined with Scald. Curse is also a solid pick in this meta, but isn't quite as effective as the standard set



- will finish post later
First of all thanks for the post lol, I used to really love posting in this thread but the meta is looking really stable right now, and it doesn't look like it will change before the next generation, unless Zeraora exceeds expectations and really shakes things up, of course no theorymonning, so we will have to wait.

I love Reuniclus, aside from it being a personal favourite of mine from design and the memories from BW, it is so slept on, even by me.

Magic Guard is a fantastic ability, especially on Calm Mind users which often are prone to getting worn down, particularly by Toxic, in addition hazards seem to be more rampant than ever thanks to Ferrothorn and Landorus and Greninja being dropped from Users.

Just to play devil's advocate, Reuniclus hates Knock Off, and the addition of Celesteela, Toxapex, the older mons like Heatran, Landorus, Ferrothorn and the nessecity of Choice Scarf users all heavily relying on their respective items means that Knock Off is everywhere, personally, I like to carry two users per team where I can. This is pretty easy seeing as Knock Off got a new Tutor is USM. Reuniclus also suffers a weakness to U-Turn, which is huge because it is slow and often can't hit your strong, slower U-Turn users and whatever you decide to do your opponent gets the momentum (that being said boosted Reuniclus is pretty hard to switch into). Also Assault vest users like Magearna and Tapu Bulu being really popular annoys Reuniclus, as even Psyshock struggles against them. Taunt is super annoying as without Recover and Calm Mind Reuniclus really struggles to do much of anything except act as set up fodder. Particularly against Heatran if unboosted, and lacking Focus Blast. Which leads me into my last point, dreaded 4MSS, without Calm Mind your bulk and attack will be lacking, without Recover you are prone to being worn down by U-Turn, without Focus Blast Steel-types are impossible to break, without Trick Room low speed means you're always relying on taking a hit before doing anything, which is a HUGE shame because it has such a deep move pool that could be taken advantage of.

As for Gastrodon, there is little bad I have to say, unfortunately Toxapex acts as direct competition, with far far better utility as a mixed wall thanks to its sky high defense and with Regenerator Pex is much easier to play and sustain, plus it is immune to Toxic. However, Gastrodon really forged a good niche, Storm Drain, Earthquake and an Electric immunity, role compressing a Koko check with a bulky water type and beating Heatran is amazing and it's a special wall that is criminally underprepped for, but of course, Bulu and Kartana exist.

Just to reiterate, I totally agree with you and I love both these Pokemon! I'm just playing devil's advocate to hopefully promote some discussion.
 
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