I doubt it, Victini pulls it off much better and it barely uses that set anymore.
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Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake
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I don't know, seed flare's secondary effect makes it tough to deal with, and it does have advantages that victini doesn't, namely better coverage in the form of earth power, giving a neutral hit on toxapex so no berry shenanigans (and still being able to OHKO with a modest nature in grassy terrain), not weak to rocks, resistance to water shuriken, and a helpful ability (meaning it gets rid of toxic/para just by switching out).
Also, in grassy terrain, you'll 2hko Chansey if you get the special defense drop, making it tricky for stall to deal with it outside of amoongus.
I can see it getting it's shot in OU.
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Don't wanna overhype this or anything like that, but I figured I might as well share what I've learned from playing with the calc.
I calced a lot of things while assuming a moveset of Z-Celebrate / Seed Flare / Earth Power / HP Fire and Shaymin's still pretty weak. There's a ton of things that can take it on, and the drops from Seed Flare (if it hits) can definetely apply a lot of pressure. You're able to 2HKO pretty much everything barring fat walls like Chansey and Celesteela (barely lives Seed Flare + HP Fire), and resists like Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur with a drop on the switch in. If they get in for free, then you're probably screwed or have to risk being statused or hazed hit by haze or forced out.
One thing that is impressive is how Shaymin can literally tank hits from every scarf mon and from mons that can technically switch in like Bulu and Celesteela, both before and after the Z move's boosts. At +1 Defense and SpD, Protean Greninja does 34-40% with U-turn and 42-49% with Ice Beam, Kartana's Sacred Sword (ignores Defense boosts) does 37-43%, Celesteela does ~26-32% with Flamethrower and Heavy Slam, and then Bulu has to rely on Nature's Madness.
In terms of counters, Toxapex with Haze, Hawlucha with at least 62% health to tank a Seed Flare, Amoonguss with Clear Smog and Mega Venusaur with Sludge Bomb can deal with it, but they have to be careful about the SpD drop (if it happens) as any prior chip damage from something like Spikes can leave them in range to be 1-2KO'd. If you can get in for free, then Torn-T can tank a hit and drop it with a Z Hurricane, but for other mons including Volcarona, they can't 1HKO if Shaymin's at full health, so wearing it down can be important.
As for what it sets up against, the list of common mons is actually fairly long. Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Clefable, Ash Greninja locked into Hydro Pump/Water Shuriken/Spikes, Tapu Koko, Lando (Defensive or Scarf locked into not U-turn), and then there's also a lot of stuff you can force out like Heatran and Scizor with Earth Power and HP Fire respectively.
Tl;dr
- Seed Flare drops can turn it from nice meme to big threat
- It's actually pretty fat and can tank stuff from common scarf mons
- Wearing it down is important if you don't have a solid counter nor a mon that can 1HKO it
- Counters exist and most of them prefer coming in for free and not into a Seed Flare because of a potential SpD drop
- It can set up on a handful of common mons
Looking back at this, I feel like Shaymin will probably be more relevant than Zeraora, but that's another story for another day. Hope this helped give an idea on how Shaymin will be, and if there's anything I got wrong or missed, then don't be afraid to let me know.
Edit: In case you forgot, regular Shaymin has Natural Cure and not Serene Grace. Seed Flare chance is still 40%
I calced a lot of things while assuming a moveset of Z-Celebrate / Seed Flare / Earth Power / HP Fire and Shaymin's still pretty weak. There's a ton of things that can take it on, and the drops from Seed Flare (if it hits) can definetely apply a lot of pressure. You're able to 2HKO pretty much everything barring fat walls like Chansey and Celesteela (barely lives Seed Flare + HP Fire), and resists like Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur with a drop on the switch in. If they get in for free, then you're probably screwed or have to risk being statused or hazed hit by haze or forced out.
One thing that is impressive is how Shaymin can literally tank hits from every scarf mon and from mons that can technically switch in like Bulu and Celesteela, both before and after the Z move's boosts. At +1 Defense and SpD, Protean Greninja does 34-40% with U-turn and 42-49% with Ice Beam, Kartana's Sacred Sword (ignores Defense boosts) does 37-43%, Celesteela does ~26-32% with Flamethrower and Heavy Slam, and then Bulu has to rely on Nature's Madness.
In terms of counters, Toxapex with Haze, Hawlucha with at least 62% health to tank a Seed Flare, Amoonguss with Clear Smog and Mega Venusaur with Sludge Bomb can deal with it, but they have to be careful about the SpD drop (if it happens) as any prior chip damage from something like Spikes can leave them in range to be 1-2KO'd. If you can get in for free, then Torn-T can tank a hit and drop it with a Z Hurricane, but for other mons including Volcarona, they can't 1HKO if Shaymin's at full health, so wearing it down can be important.
As for what it sets up against, the list of common mons is actually fairly long. Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Clefable, Ash Greninja locked into Hydro Pump/Water Shuriken/Spikes, Tapu Koko, Lando (Defensive or Scarf locked into not U-turn), and then there's also a lot of stuff you can force out like Heatran and Scizor with Earth Power and HP Fire respectively.
Tl;dr
- Seed Flare drops can turn it from nice meme to big threat
- It's actually pretty fat and can tank stuff from common scarf mons
- Wearing it down is important if you don't have a solid counter nor a mon that can 1HKO it
- Counters exist and most of them prefer coming in for free and not into a Seed Flare because of a potential SpD drop
- It can set up on a handful of common mons
Looking back at this, I feel like Shaymin will probably be more relevant than Zeraora, but that's another story for another day. Hope this helped give an idea on how Shaymin will be, and if there's anything I got wrong or missed, then don't be afraid to let me know.
Edit: In case you forgot, regular Shaymin has Natural Cure and not Serene Grace. Seed Flare chance is still 40%
actually i completely forgot about serene grace, it may have some potential thinking about it. ill be sure to give it a go when it becomes legal.
i think zeraora will be decent personally, me and a few others have been looking into elecspam as an archetype and zeraora is hella strong w a life orb under terrain.
Minor correction, but Skymin's the one with Serene Grace. Shaymin's normal forme has Natural Cure. That said, Seed Flare has a 40% drop chance, still pretty good odds. This thing could be ranked in the future.
oh yeah oops lol my b
on another note, i wonder how good z celebrate skymin will be (i have a feeling this will be wrong too bc idk how you get skymin from shaymin lol)
you can get skymin from shaymin since it transforms when exposed to gracideae.
No more theorymon in this thread please. TPP and others bring up great points and we have touched on the matter sufficiently now. Let’s keep it to current pokemon and sets — we can discuss Shaymin more once it is more established.
Not really anything new, if anything this is actually a relic of the past! But it's been performing really well recently and with the rise of Gastrodon it's definitely something to look forward to.
Heatran @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Solar Beam
Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 36 Def / 76 SpD / 68 Spe
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Nature's Madness
Bloom Doom Heatran is insanely fun to use and is fairly effective, blowing out usual answers like the rising Tapu Fini, Gastrodon (also rising in usage) out of the water, and it can also stunt on Tyranitar. With Grassy Terrain, Bloom Doom does ridiculous feats such as OHKOing Zygarde and beating Gliscor 1v1 (eq tickles under terrain and it just flat out dies). Tapu Bulu is fairly self explanatory, using Assault Vest to sponge a lot of Heatran's weaknesses like Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Ash-Greninja and weakens EQ.
This just adds another layer of Heatran's diversity and I feel like is a good decision to be on the look out going forward on the metagame. The cool thing too is that it isn't even 100% obvious, as Heatran + Tapu Bulu is a natural core in the first place and has existed for a while now.
Heatran @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Solar Beam
Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 36 Def / 76 SpD / 68 Spe
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Nature's Madness
Bloom Doom Heatran is insanely fun to use and is fairly effective, blowing out usual answers like the rising Tapu Fini, Gastrodon (also rising in usage) out of the water, and it can also stunt on Tyranitar. With Grassy Terrain, Bloom Doom does ridiculous feats such as OHKOing Zygarde and beating Gliscor 1v1 (eq tickles under terrain and it just flat out dies). Tapu Bulu is fairly self explanatory, using Assault Vest to sponge a lot of Heatran's weaknesses like Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Ash-Greninja and weakens EQ.
This just adds another layer of Heatran's diversity and I feel like is a good decision to be on the look out going forward on the metagame. The cool thing too is that it isn't even 100% obvious, as Heatran + Tapu Bulu is a natural core in the first place and has existed for a while now.
tagging 3017 and Qplaz to let you know that I clicked rocks with kommo-o. go team oceania! also apologising to Finchinator for bugging you about this post
The Underrated, Part Two
Clefable itself isn't underrated per say - it's the combination of Wish + Soft-boiled that is. As someone who capitalised on this trend I believe it's safe to say that this has become a personal favourite set to use. It provides unparalleled support for 'mons that lack no reliable recovery including, heatran, landorus, magearna and ferrothorn - which more than often results in a gigantic momentum shift if properly conducted. This is especially important when considering that most games revolve around weakening a certain mon to the point where a 'mon cannot perform to its full extent. Clefable's wishes have the potential to swing momentum from a loss into a potential comeback, especially if timed properly. Now, you may say that a slight shift in momentum isn't exactly important, but you have to consider how important HP is in the long run. I won't go on about that because I could be here for quite some time, but I will give you some other thoughts about Wish + Softboiled Clef. If your team is slightly weak to stall, you kind of miss knock off, but can be resolved by pairing it with the likes of Firium Z Heatran.
Amoonguss is a 'mon that has gained quite a lot of traction in the recent months - and it's not hard to see why. Amoonguss is quite easily one of the most splashable 'mons in the tier, wit the Assault Vest set being able to operate on nearly every team archetype - whether that is Balance, Bulky or Hyper Offense, even on Sand Offense and Stall, nearly all playstyles appreciates the utility it offers. The ability to compress a koko, ash gren, magearna and kart check while being immune to toxic and possessing the ability to absorb tspikes is really cool in the current meta. While you kind of miss spore with the AV set, you more than make up for it by being noticably bulkier than the black sludge variant. Speaking of the black sludge variant, it's still pretty cool, especially on sand builds. Spore is always a pain to deal with outside of electric terrain and the additional utility of toxic is incredibly useful against bulkier builds while stun spore is a really cool option against offense. You may wonder why i've lumped venusaur with amoonguss - and that's because they play rather similarly, with the most notable difference is that venusaur is incredibly t h i c c - it has tremendous bulk that when combined with it's interesting ability of T h i c c fat, which allows venu to check everything that guss checks in addition to more reliably check Magearna, Zygade, Kartana, Zapdos, Mawile, Ferrothorn and Heatran. After I was reintroduced to this mon by patlop2307, i've found that 3 attacks is the most consistent set, as (similarly to zapdos) it allows it to super effectively hit everything it walls. Leech seed is cool and all, but you just don't have enough moveslots to justify using it, as you really want to be able to recover with Giga Drain and Synthesis and hit its checks with Earthquake and HP Fire or Ice. HP Ice is still pretty cool on this 'mon, as it grants it the ability to deter zygarde from setting up on it, while hitting it for quite a decent amount of damage. Speaking of zygarde...
Let me just say this now - Tangrowth is still amazing. Yes, AV Bulu serves as direct competition, but I believe there are a lot of instances where tang just performs better as the bulky grass. The most attractive feature of tangrowth's is its expansive movepool - which I believe to be a hidden treasure. Knock Off is fantastic in this balance and bulky offense-run meta, as well as being able to really punish rain by removing the resurgent Damp Rock from pelipper. Grass Knot, an interesting option first utilised in tournament play by our esteemed tier leader, abr is an interesting and dare I say superior option ,allowing you to forgo HP Ice as a method of punishing Zygarde, preventing setup and punishing it for attacking. Speaking of interesting picks, i've noticed one oddity in its movepool that prevents setup from one of the most dangerous cleaners in the tier - Hawlucha. This move is none other than shock wave, and yes, you have read this correctly. Shock wave is an incredibly interesting option i've used (granted only twice) to punish hawlucha's that decide to set up on you, dealing at most 72%. This, combined with the niche pick of Leaf Storm, ultimately removes Hawlucha, especially after it has roosted on the predicted double shock wave and is vey handy on certain builds. Now, returning to our scheduled program of not heat, Tangrowth's amazing physical bulk in tandem with its amazing movepool has lead me to choose Tangrowth over Tapu Bulu more than just a couple times, but quite frequently. The addition of moves such as Earthquake and Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and the increased potency of moves such as Hidden Power Fire also prevents it form being setup fodder from the likes of Kyurem Black, Magearna, Tapu Lele and Kartana and is especially helpful on many common balance builds today.
Stealth Rock Tyranitar is still something to be feared. Possessing the ability to break through just about every defogger in the tier through the means of either Pursuit, Stone Edge or either Fire or Ice Punch, this monster almost guarantees rocks up. I'll be honest, there isn't much to say about this 'mon that hasn't previously been said, but the resurgence of mega Lati@s, Amoonguss and Heatran, there is little reason not to use Mega Tar. Mega Tar on balance is an incredibly potent threat, and while admittedly the lack of power when compared to its choice banded counterpart, I've come to greatly appreciate the amazing bulk and the ability to free up its moves. One thing you may complain about is the sheer abundance of hawlucha in the tier, but Hawlucha (especially Psychic and Misty Seed Variants) must be careful of Ice Punch, which does incredible damage to it. Stone Edge also does similar amounts of damage (0.5% less damage off of a neutral move) and both moves will OHKO after sand. I will say that I personally love using Ice Punch more than EQ of Fire Punch due to the ability to snipe just about every common defogger out of existence and the ability to punish zygarde, which would otherwise wall you. Ttar is also one of the greatest partners for Hawlucha as it has the potential to outright remove Magearna and Zapdos, whilst also putting Koko in +2 hjk range after a turn of sand and rocks, whilst lucha beats the bulky grasses for it. Edit the recent increase of Mega Latios and Latias immensely help out mttar, as it counters all variants of Mega Latias, whilst still being able to take minimal damage from mega latios' earthquake, and being able to either trap it or outright kill it.
(That's Latios and Latias, respectively)
While these two 'mons recently found their new homes in the OU tier, I cannot stress how little people prep for these mons. I'll start off with Latias, which was introduced to me via Simia. This 'mon can legitimately run just about any combinations of moves and reliably get away with it. Stored Power variations have and will be Mega Latias' greatest threats, especially when combined with TSpikes, which is largely underprepared for rn. This set does wonders against literally every team archetype, as it just finds itself soo many good opportunities to reliably set up in front of everything. Stall can't do much to it, especially if running sub, where the only option is for chansey to spam stoss while it boosts up with calm mind, balance builds have to be especially careful (might add a replay) when dealing with it, as it gets so many free switch-ins, especially on Scarf mons like landorus, victini and magnezone but none more than Heatran, which is easily countered by Mega Latias. There really aren't many faults i've noticed with Mega Lati, except for the annoyances that are dark types, but running literally any fighting or fairy type alongside it can easily mitigate this issue.
Mega Latios is surprisingly similar to Mega Latias, in the sense that it has soo many free switch in opportunities, but also has very little switch ins on its own. The HP Fire set absolutely shreds balance apart without ever needing to switch while the draco set is one of the hardest hitting breakers in the tier. There really ins't much to say about Mega Latios that hasn't already been said, but I will say that Hawlucha loves Latios' breaking abilities, as it notably removes Clefable with relative ease, while absolutely demolishing Zapdos with Draco.
I'll conclude this by saying that there will be another big post like this in the near future, so stay tuned!
The Underrated, Part Two
Clefable itself isn't underrated per say - it's the combination of Wish + Soft-boiled that is. As someone who capitalised on this trend I believe it's safe to say that this has become a personal favourite set to use. It provides unparalleled support for 'mons that lack no reliable recovery including, heatran, landorus, magearna and ferrothorn - which more than often results in a gigantic momentum shift if properly conducted. This is especially important when considering that most games revolve around weakening a certain mon to the point where a 'mon cannot perform to its full extent. Clefable's wishes have the potential to swing momentum from a loss into a potential comeback, especially if timed properly. Now, you may say that a slight shift in momentum isn't exactly important, but you have to consider how important HP is in the long run. I won't go on about that because I could be here for quite some time, but I will give you some other thoughts about Wish + Softboiled Clef. If your team is slightly weak to stall, you kind of miss knock off, but can be resolved by pairing it with the likes of Firium Z Heatran.
Amoonguss is a 'mon that has gained quite a lot of traction in the recent months - and it's not hard to see why. Amoonguss is quite easily one of the most splashable 'mons in the tier, wit the Assault Vest set being able to operate on nearly every team archetype - whether that is Balance, Bulky or Hyper Offense, even on Sand Offense and Stall, nearly all playstyles appreciates the utility it offers. The ability to compress a koko, ash gren, magearna and kart check while being immune to toxic and possessing the ability to absorb tspikes is really cool in the current meta. While you kind of miss spore with the AV set, you more than make up for it by being noticably bulkier than the black sludge variant. Speaking of the black sludge variant, it's still pretty cool, especially on sand builds. Spore is always a pain to deal with outside of electric terrain and the additional utility of toxic is incredibly useful against bulkier builds while stun spore is a really cool option against offense. You may wonder why i've lumped venusaur with amoonguss - and that's because they play rather similarly, with the most notable difference is that venusaur is incredibly t h i c c - it has tremendous bulk that when combined with it's interesting ability of T h i c c fat, which allows venu to check everything that guss checks in addition to more reliably check Magearna, Zygade, Kartana, Zapdos, Mawile, Ferrothorn and Heatran. After I was reintroduced to this mon by patlop2307, i've found that 3 attacks is the most consistent set, as (similarly to zapdos) it allows it to super effectively hit everything it walls. Leech seed is cool and all, but you just don't have enough moveslots to justify using it, as you really want to be able to recover with Giga Drain and Synthesis and hit its checks with Earthquake and HP Fire or Ice. HP Ice is still pretty cool on this 'mon, as it grants it the ability to deter zygarde from setting up on it, while hitting it for quite a decent amount of damage. Speaking of zygarde...
Let me just say this now - Tangrowth is still amazing. Yes, AV Bulu serves as direct competition, but I believe there are a lot of instances where tang just performs better as the bulky grass. The most attractive feature of tangrowth's is its expansive movepool - which I believe to be a hidden treasure. Knock Off is fantastic in this balance and bulky offense-run meta, as well as being able to really punish rain by removing the resurgent Damp Rock from pelipper. Grass Knot, an interesting option first utilised in tournament play by our esteemed tier leader, abr is an interesting and dare I say superior option ,allowing you to forgo HP Ice as a method of punishing Zygarde, preventing setup and punishing it for attacking. Speaking of interesting picks, i've noticed one oddity in its movepool that prevents setup from one of the most dangerous cleaners in the tier - Hawlucha. This move is none other than shock wave, and yes, you have read this correctly. Shock wave is an incredibly interesting option i've used (granted only twice) to punish hawlucha's that decide to set up on you, dealing at most 72%. This, combined with the niche pick of Leaf Storm, ultimately removes Hawlucha, especially after it has roosted on the predicted double shock wave and is vey handy on certain builds. Now, returning to our scheduled program of not heat, Tangrowth's amazing physical bulk in tandem with its amazing movepool has lead me to choose Tangrowth over Tapu Bulu more than just a couple times, but quite frequently. The addition of moves such as Earthquake and Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and the increased potency of moves such as Hidden Power Fire also prevents it form being setup fodder from the likes of Kyurem Black, Magearna, Tapu Lele and Kartana and is especially helpful on many common balance builds today.
Stealth Rock Tyranitar is still something to be feared. Possessing the ability to break through just about every defogger in the tier through the means of either Pursuit, Stone Edge or either Fire or Ice Punch, this monster almost guarantees rocks up. I'll be honest, there isn't much to say about this 'mon that hasn't previously been said, but the resurgence of mega Lati@s, Amoonguss and Heatran, there is little reason not to use Mega Tar. Mega Tar on balance is an incredibly potent threat, and while admittedly the lack of power when compared to its choice banded counterpart, I've come to greatly appreciate the amazing bulk and the ability to free up its moves. One thing you may complain about is the sheer abundance of hawlucha in the tier, but Hawlucha (especially Psychic and Misty Seed Variants) must be careful of Ice Punch, which does incredible damage to it. Stone Edge also does similar amounts of damage (0.5% less damage off of a neutral move) and both moves will OHKO after sand. I will say that I personally love using Ice Punch more than EQ of Fire Punch due to the ability to snipe just about every common defogger out of existence and the ability to punish zygarde, which would otherwise wall you. Ttar is also one of the greatest partners for Hawlucha as it has the potential to outright remove Magearna and Zapdos, whilst also putting Koko in +2 hjk range after a turn of sand and rocks, whilst lucha beats the bulky grasses for it. Edit the recent increase of Mega Latios and Latias immensely help out mttar, as it counters all variants of Mega Latias, whilst still being able to take minimal damage from mega latios' earthquake, and being able to either trap it or outright kill it.
While these two 'mons recently found their new homes in the OU tier, I cannot stress how little people prep for these mons. I'll start off with Latias, which was introduced to me via Simia. This 'mon can legitimately run just about any combinations of moves and reliably get away with it. Stored Power variations have and will be Mega Latias' greatest threats, especially when combined with TSpikes, which is largely underprepared for rn. This set does wonders against literally every team archetype, as it just finds itself soo many good opportunities to reliably set up in front of everything. Stall can't do much to it, especially if running sub, where the only option is for chansey to spam stoss while it boosts up with calm mind, balance builds have to be especially careful (might add a replay) when dealing with it, as it gets so many free switch-ins, especially on Scarf mons like landorus, victini and magnezone but none more than Heatran, which is easily countered by Mega Latias. There really aren't many faults i've noticed with Mega Lati, except for the annoyances that are dark types, but running literally any fighting or fairy type alongside it can easily mitigate this issue.
Mega Latios is surprisingly similar to Mega Latias, in the sense that it has soo many free switch in opportunities, but also has very little switch ins on its own. The HP Fire set absolutely shreds balance apart without ever needing to switch while the draco set is one of the hardest hitting breakers in the tier. There really ins't much to say about Mega Latios that hasn't already been said, but I will say that Hawlucha loves Latios' breaking abilities, as it notably removes Clefable with relative ease, while absolutely demolishing Zapdos with Draco.
I'll conclude this by saying that there will be another big post like this in the near future, so stay tuned!
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I think Grassium Heatran is going to surge in use in the coming weeks, especially in the context of Gastro being such a glue to BO builds. I think Bloom Doom Tran pairs incredibly well withNot really anything new, if anything this is actually a relic of the past! But it's been performing really well recently and with the rise of Gastrodon it's definitely something to look forward to.
Heatran @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Solar Beam
Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 36 Def / 76 SpD / 68 Spe
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Nature's Madness
Bloom Doom Heatran is insanely fun to use and is fairly effective, blowing out usual answers like the rising Tapu Fini, Gastrodon (also rising in usage) out of the water, and it can also stunt on Tyranitar. With Grassy Terrain, Bloom Doom does ridiculous feats such as OHKOing Zygarde and beating Gliscor 1v1 (eq tickles under terrain and it just flat out dies). Tapu Bulu is fairly self explanatory, using Assault Vest to sponge a lot of Heatran's weaknesses like Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Ash-Greninja and weakens EQ.
This just adds another layer of Heatran's diversity and I feel like is a good decision to be on the look out going forward on the metagame. The cool thing too is that it isn't even 100% obvious, as Heatran + Tapu Bulu is a natural core in the first place and has existed for a while now.
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
This set has seen plenty of recent use and for good reason, Clef + Tran is an old ORAS core that has evolved with the meta. This particular Clef set opens up Heatrans moveset and item by acting as both the SR setter and Healer for Bloom Doom Tran's lack of leftovers. I think this Clef set will be the single largest meta shifter in the near to medium future because of how much role compression it provides. This compression will allow for more flexible and creative movesets on a variety of bulky mons that lack recovery.
Is anyone else using HP Ice over HP Fire on Alakazam?
It's much less popular than HP Ice (5% to 25%), but it has distinct advantages over HP Fire such as beating Garchomp, Gliscor and non-sash and non-scarf Lando-T (65% of all Landos).
Celesteela still walls it even after rocks (252 SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 116-138 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery ), and Ferrot dies to two focus blasts (although that's kind of a coinflip).
The only disadvantage seems to be that it's losing hard against Scizor without HP-Firce, but that seems minor in comparision to the benefits HP-Ice has.
Am I missing something here, or is HP-Ice the better choice over HP-Fire on MegaZam?
It's much less popular than HP Ice (5% to 25%), but it has distinct advantages over HP Fire such as beating Garchomp, Gliscor and non-sash and non-scarf Lando-T (65% of all Landos).
Celesteela still walls it even after rocks (252 SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 116-138 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery ), and Ferrot dies to two focus blasts (although that's kind of a coinflip).
The only disadvantage seems to be that it's losing hard against Scizor without HP-Firce, but that seems minor in comparision to the benefits HP-Ice has.
Am I missing something here, or is HP-Ice the better choice over HP-Fire on MegaZam?
if you have focus blast you still won't be using hp fire and hp ice doesn't really do much as lando/zygarde aren't good checks of alakazam-mega, I would still prefear using shadow ball/Energy ball> hp ice if you want to use focus blast>hp fire
My first post( be gentle )
Would like some community opinions on one of my key ou team members:
Empoleon.
Does anyone have a problem with bringing up lower tiered pokemon into OU battles?
I'm also looking for a more "OU" tier appropriate pokemon to do what he does. I use the following set
Empoleon- choice scarf
252 speed
252 sp attack
Ice beam
Scald
Flash cannon
Defog
Runs with Zard X, togekiss, breloom, mamoswine, and raikou
I run him this way to clear hazards and get the surprise outspeed on anything slower than jolly 252 speed garchomp. It has a certain "surprise muthatrucka" feel when you OHKO the land shark or mega salamance. Basicly its ran as a bulkier greninja that doesnt get poisoned on switch in for hazard control. Thoughts?
Would like some community opinions on one of my key ou team members:
Empoleon.
Does anyone have a problem with bringing up lower tiered pokemon into OU battles?
I'm also looking for a more "OU" tier appropriate pokemon to do what he does. I use the following set
Empoleon- choice scarf
252 speed
252 sp attack
Ice beam
Scald
Flash cannon
Defog
Runs with Zard X, togekiss, breloom, mamoswine, and raikou
I run him this way to clear hazards and get the surprise outspeed on anything slower than jolly 252 speed garchomp. It has a certain "surprise muthatrucka" feel when you OHKO the land shark or mega salamance. Basicly its ran as a bulkier greninja that doesnt get poisoned on switch in for hazard control. Thoughts?
I haven’t used Empoleon in OU but Scarf seems pretty bad since it’s pretty weak and slow. It’s typing is cool though, and it’s stats are useable, so a defensive Defog may work.
Empoleon is outclassed by almost every water in the tier, and scarf defoggers are usually Lando/Kartana, and Is outclassed and can not do much because it has 60 base speed and i think that it only has a small niche, but a small niche that still doesn't do much.
Thats just what I thought until I tried it. It sucks when you get "outscarfed" but thats why I bring priority in breloom/mamoswine. Barring the outscarf, he almost always get that surprise ice beam KO, then I switch into togekiss for fighting/ ground or raikou for electricity (and its pretty easy to predict which of those 3 is coming). Empoleon has a tendency to get walled by bulky pokemon, but what scarfer is immune to that? + Sometimes he can at least score a torrent boosted scale with burn when things are not looking good.
Hi Medic Jordan, Empoleon's only real niche in OU is as a bulky defogger. There are many mons which perform the role of a scarfer better. If you'd like a choice scarf user that can defog, try Latios:
Latios @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Trick
Trick has the benefit of letting Latios cripple a bulky Pokemon like Chansey or Toxapex by removing Eviolite or Healing items and locking it into a single move, forcing it to choose between healing or support/attack every time it comes in.
Thanks! This is exactly what I've been looking for.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Hey guys, Entei is kinda
ahem
FIRE right now.
i possess not a shred of regret for that one
With the rise of strong Grass types like Amoonguss, Kartana and Tapu Bulu on the rise, Steel types like Magnezone and Magearna being prevalent, and with special walls like SpDef Pex and Chansey also being essential picks, being a physical attacking Fire type is an incredibly anti-meta trait right now.
But with that lies a problem. Said Physical Fire types are lacking. The best one in the tier is undoubtedly Megazard X, but that has flaws, such as being hard-walled by the two best mons in the tier, being slow-ish without set-up (which it doesn't really find the room to run these days), and consuming a mega slot, which while not as essential as Gen 6, is still a bummer to use at the expense of stuff like Pinsir, the Latis and Scizor. Aside from Zard, the only thing left to fill that cool niche is Victini, which has even more faults than Megazard X and isn't that good.
That's where Entei comes in. Its coverage may not the best, mono Fire may be eh as a typing, but it has qualities that give it a niche over Victini and Megazard X as a physical attacking Fire type.
For one, Entei has the tools to circumvent nearly every Fire check in the tier. Landorus-Therian despises Sacred Fire burns, which renders even stronger Lando sets into useless mush. Mega Gyarados is in a similar situation, where despite having 95/109 physical defense with a Water typing and Intimidate pre-mega, Sacred Fire can disable it and render it worthless for the rest of the game. Toxapex is cleanly two-shotted by Stomping Tantrum, especially after rocks. Greninja gets crapped on by Extreme Speed, which out-prioritizes Water Shuriken. Mega Diancie... Who even runs that thing anymore? Oh, and it loses to Stomping Tantrum regardless, so kek. Pelipper gets nailed by Stone Edge. Tyranitar despises Sacred Fire burns, gets hit by Stomping Tantrum, and Entei doesn't even mind Pursuit that much. Zygarde also hates Sacred Fire burns unless it is a RestTalk variant. Heatran? Throw a (stomping) tantrum. You get the idea...
So yeah. Entei has the movepool to either remove Fire checks or, if it can't beat them 1 on 1, severely cripple them or ward them off from directly switching in with the threat of Sacred Fire burns.
Stat-wise, it's also nice. It has good Attack, 100 speed (faster than lando and the same as Zard X, its biggest rival) and has good bulk too. In other words, its stats are perfect for the role it performs.
Here's the set I use. Perhaps I'll find a better one, perhaps I won't. Idk.
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stomping Tantrum
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
Moves are self-explanatory, item choices are self-explanatory. Speed EVs allow it to outrun Timid heatran.
That's all folks have fun with the set freinds
Other than Extreme Speed I see literally no reason to use this over Victini. Victini's movepool is much, much wider and has Bolt Strike for Bulky Waters, U-turn to keep up momentum and V-create is just so powerful that Victini can use a Scarf set with base 100 attack. It can also run lure sets with Glaciate or clean with Z-Celebrate. I think this is one of those very obvious comparisons where one mon just completely outclasses the other, think Tapu Lele vs Mega Gard or Excadrill vs umm... Sandslash? Every single thing Entei can do, Victini does better (and there's a legitimate level of suprise factor before Victini reveals its moveset). Victini also has a smidge of defensive utility compared to Entei in that Victini can check Tapu Lele.Engay (Entei) @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Hey guys, Entei is kinda
ahem
FIRE right now.
i possess not a shred of regret for that one
With the rise of strong Grass types like Amoonguss, Kartana and Tapu Bulu on the rise, Steel types like Magnezone and Magearna being prevalent, and with special walls like SpDef Pex and Chansey also being essential picks, being a physical attacking Fire type is an incredibly anti-meta trait right now.
But with that lies a problem. Said Physical Fire types are lacking. The best one in the tier is undoubtedly Megazard X, but that has flaws, such as being hard-walled by the two best mons in the tier, being slow-ish without set-up (which it doesn't really find the room to run these days), and consuming a mega slot, which while not as essential as Gen 6, is still a bummer to use at the expense of stuff like Pinsir, the Latis and Scizor. Aside from Zard, the only thing left to fill that cool niche is Victini, which has even more faults than Megazard X and isn't that good.
That's where Entei comes in. Its coverage may not the best, mono Fire may be eh as a typing, but it has qualities that give it a niche over Victini and Megazard X as a physical attacking Fire type.
For one, Entei has the tools to circumvent nearly every Fire check in the tier. Landorus-Therian despises Sacred Fire burns, which renders even stronger Lando sets into useless mush. Mega Gyarados is in a similar situation, where despite having 95/109 physical defense with a Water typing and Intimidate pre-mega, Sacred Fire can disable it and render it worthless for the rest of the game. Toxapex is cleanly two-shotted by Stomping Tantrum, especially after rocks. Greninja gets crapped on by Extreme Speed, which out-prioritizes Water Shuriken. Mega Diancie... Who even runs that thing anymore? Oh, and it loses to Stomping Tantrum regardless, so kek. Pelipper gets nailed by Stone Edge. Tyranitar despises Sacred Fire burns, gets hit by Stomping Tantrum, and Entei doesn't even mind Pursuit that much. Zygarde also hates Sacred Fire burns unless it is a RestTalk variant. Heatran? Throw a (stomping) tantrum. You get the idea...
So yeah. Entei has the movepool to either remove Fire checks or, if it can't beat them 1 on 1, severely cripple them or ward them off from directly switching in with the threat of Sacred Fire burns.
Stat-wise, it's also nice. It has good Attack, 100 speed (faster than lando and the same as Zard X, its biggest rival) and has good bulk too. In other words, its stats are perfect for the role it performs.
Here's the set I use. Perhaps I'll find a better one, perhaps I won't. Idk.
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stomping Tantrum
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
Moves are self-explanatory, item choices are self-explanatory. Speed EVs allow it to outrun Timid heatran.
That's all folks have fun with the set freinds
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I guess Sacred Fire is really more spammable than v-create thanks to no drops and the 50% chance to burn crippiling its checks, and espeed is an amazing move which can let it easily clean late game vs offensive team, still victini can be a better choice in some teams but it doesn't completely outclass it
Not going to comment on the viability of Entei but just figured I'd point out that you definitely want more speed on this set. Timid Heatran is a decent benchmark but the extra bulk will rarely come into play and you definitely want to take advantage of that base 100 Speed stat. For one you're outsped by Gliscor creeping Heatran (which is most if not all Gliscors), Hoopa and even the rare Mamo can force you out. You could get away with 285 for the aforementioned mons but you have no reason not to invest more into speed to outpace zygarde, timid lele, offensive landos etc. Just max out on speed imoEngay (Entei) @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Hey guys, Entei is kinda
ahem
FIRE right now.
i possess not a shred of regret for that one
With the rise of strong Grass types like Amoonguss, Kartana and Tapu Bulu on the rise, Steel types like Magnezone and Magearna being prevalent, and with special walls like SpDef Pex and Chansey also being essential picks, being a physical attacking Fire type is an incredibly anti-meta trait right now.
But with that lies a problem. Said Physical Fire types are lacking. The best one in the tier is undoubtedly Megazard X, but that has flaws, such as being hard-walled by the two best mons in the tier, being slow-ish without set-up (which it doesn't really find the room to run these days), and consuming a mega slot, which while not as essential as Gen 6, is still a bummer to use at the expense of stuff like Pinsir, the Latis and Scizor. Aside from Zard, the only thing left to fill that cool niche is Victini, which has even more faults than Megazard X and isn't that good.
That's where Entei comes in. Its coverage may not the best, mono Fire may be eh as a typing, but it has qualities that give it a niche over Victini and Megazard X as a physical attacking Fire type.
For one, Entei has the tools to circumvent nearly every Fire check in the tier. Landorus-Therian despises Sacred Fire burns, which renders even stronger Lando sets into useless mush. Mega Gyarados is in a similar situation, where despite having 95/109 physical defense with a Water typing and Intimidate pre-mega, Sacred Fire can disable it and render it worthless for the rest of the game. Toxapex is cleanly two-shotted by Stomping Tantrum, especially after rocks. Greninja gets crapped on by Extreme Speed, which out-prioritizes Water Shuriken. Mega Diancie... Who even runs that thing anymore? Oh, and it loses to Stomping Tantrum regardless, so kek. Pelipper gets nailed by Stone Edge. Tyranitar despises Sacred Fire burns, gets hit by Stomping Tantrum, and Entei doesn't even mind Pursuit that much. Zygarde also hates Sacred Fire burns unless it is a RestTalk variant. Heatran? Throw a (stomping) tantrum. You get the idea...
So yeah. Entei has the movepool to either remove Fire checks or, if it can't beat them 1 on 1, severely cripple them or ward them off from directly switching in with the threat of Sacred Fire burns.
Stat-wise, it's also nice. It has good Attack, 100 speed (faster than lando and the same as Zard X, its biggest rival) and has good bulk too. In other words, its stats are perfect for the role it performs.
Here's the set I use. Perhaps I'll find a better one, perhaps I won't. Idk.
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stomping Tantrum
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
Moves are self-explanatory, item choices are self-explanatory. Speed EVs allow it to outrun Timid heatran.
That's all folks have fun with the set freinds
I appreciate the effort put into this but I kindly disagree with Entei bringing any sort of considerable viability to the table.Engay (Entei) @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Hey guys, Entei is kinda
ahem
FIRE right now.
i possess not a shred of regret for that one
With the rise of strong Grass types like Amoonguss, Kartana and Tapu Bulu on the rise, Steel types like Magnezone and Magearna being prevalent, and with special walls like SpDef Pex and Chansey also being essential picks, being a physical attacking Fire type is an incredibly anti-meta trait right now.
But with that lies a problem. Said Physical Fire types are lacking. The best one in the tier is undoubtedly Megazard X, but that has flaws, such as being hard-walled by the two best mons in the tier, being slow-ish without set-up (which it doesn't really find the room to run these days), and consuming a mega slot, which while not as essential as Gen 6, is still a bummer to use at the expense of stuff like Pinsir, the Latis and Scizor. Aside from Zard, the only thing left to fill that cool niche is Victini, which has even more faults than Megazard X and isn't that good.
That's where Entei comes in. Its coverage may not the best, mono Fire may be eh as a typing, but it has qualities that give it a niche over Victini and Megazard X as a physical attacking Fire type.
For one, Entei has the tools to circumvent nearly every Fire check in the tier. Landorus-Therian despises Sacred Fire burns, which renders even stronger Lando sets into useless mush. Mega Gyarados is in a similar situation, where despite having 95/109 physical defense with a Water typing and Intimidate pre-mega, Sacred Fire can disable it and render it worthless for the rest of the game. Toxapex is cleanly two-shotted by Stomping Tantrum, especially after rocks. Greninja gets crapped on by Extreme Speed, which out-prioritizes Water Shuriken. Mega Diancie... Who even runs that thing anymore? Oh, and it loses to Stomping Tantrum regardless, so kek. Pelipper gets nailed by Stone Edge. Tyranitar despises Sacred Fire burns, gets hit by Stomping Tantrum, and Entei doesn't even mind Pursuit that much. Zygarde also hates Sacred Fire burns unless it is a RestTalk variant. Heatran? Throw a (stomping) tantrum. You get the idea...
So yeah. Entei has the movepool to either remove Fire checks or, if it can't beat them 1 on 1, severely cripple them or ward them off from directly switching in with the threat of Sacred Fire burns.
Stat-wise, it's also nice. It has good Attack, 100 speed (faster than lando and the same as Zard X, its biggest rival) and has good bulk too. In other words, its stats are perfect for the role it performs.
Here's the set I use. Perhaps I'll find a better one, perhaps I won't. Idk.
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stomping Tantrum
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
Moves are self-explanatory, item choices are self-explanatory. Speed EVs allow it to outrun Timid heatran.
That's all folks have fun with the set freinds
First off, I'd definitely only run CB -- Life Orb only 2HKO's Pex on a roll and it can always get up TSpikes and Regen pivot out, and it also makes you get worn incredibly easily. I'd really just run max/max because 84 HP makes you take 1/4 from rocks and 172 Speed makes you slower than stuff like 252 Zygarde and 252+ Mega Gyara for instance (Good things to burn if they try to revenge mind you.) Secondly, Sacred Fire is hardly a niche when Entei fails to deliver on everything else. Lack of power (This'd be fine if its Fire STAB was consistently spammable like say CB Zygarde which it isn't. Spammability should be a no-brainer considering how great its secondary effect is, right? But Fire is a terrible type to locked into, things you'd ideally burn have counterplay like Scarf Lando and Sub Zygarde, you have to 50/50 for burns and getting off hazard/toxic chip might be all you need anyway), vulnerability to all hazards, abysmal movepool which in turn makes it one-dimensional and predictable, and in general it has fierce competition with mons of its kind that can break down a lot more builds. It was a better RKiller back in XY/ORAS when many of its checks were frail like the Latis and Keldeo but now a ton of fat builds completely mess it up. Gliscor picking up in usage isn't doing it any favors either :/
e: this is entei we're talking here, anyone competent should know not to directly switch their physical check in and risk a 50/50 with Sacred Fire
These are just my two cents though, Sacred Fire is p cute no lie
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Don't forget that Entei is locked into an adamant nature when it runs Extreme Speed, so that you will never be able to outrun timid Lele.
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