Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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This thing is a menace. It's overcentralizing as hell, but I gotta admit it's pretty fun to use.

If you're gonna run Dragonium Z-probably the best set, but you can probably run Firium Z pretty well if you really are weak to/hate Magearna-I recommend trying this specific spread (not new, but just re-highlighting it).

Naganadel @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor

With the given EVs, you get a +1 to Speed after Beast Boost, letting you outspeed everything up through Thundurus-I in base (you clock in at 354 speed) and after +1 you outspeed everything that's slower than/equal to Modest Kingdra (i.e. Mega Swampert, etc.).

The only things you're missing out on outspeeding with this spread that a normal max-max spread beats at +0/+1 is ScarfTar while unboosted (and that is really uncommon), and Sand Rush Excadrill if you have +1 (which is also uncommon). Oh, and other Naganadel (but speed creep wars, I guess).

In return, the extra HP can be really valuable. You now have over a 65% chance to live Banded Weavile/Adamant LO Mamoswine Ice Shard after Stealth Rock damage (whereas you only have less than 15% to live after Rocks with 0 HP), Scarf Keldeo goes from >50% chance to 2HKO with Hydro Pump after rocks to less than 3%, and Physical Scarf Greninja (which is most common IIRC if you're running Scarf, at least that's what the calculator is assuming) cannot OHKO you with Ice Beam from full (max roll of 99.7%).
 
Having not used Rotom-W at all this gen, I was pretty surprised how much the power creep has affected its bulk. It really doesn't seem very bulky anymore. In any case, I still have really enjoyed using it as a defogger, it's typing/immunity is still very helpful and it has a lot of very good matchups against common setters. I ended up replacing Pain Split with Defog because non-WoW Rotom-W is just significantly less scary to switch into. Replacing leftovers with Iapapa berry has also been somewhat successful. I'm curious to know how other people are building Rotom-W, are they getting rid of WoW/one of its stabs and keeping lefties?

Gliscor is plenty viable but overall I've found it a bit underwhelming and much rather using Lando-t, despite its flaws as a defogger. I've gone back to using Sp Atk Timid Landorus-t and I actually think it's quite good right now because a quick kill on your opponent's lando-t can remove their defogger for the whole game which is always nice.

Naganadel is obviously super broken but I actually haven't lost many games to it. You can afford to over-prepare for it because it is literally on every single team and despite people calling its checks shaky, I think they are pretty damn solid as long as you don't fall for lures. But as soon as you use try and use any other team that doesn't have the appropriate Naganadel counterplay, the games get pretty disgusting.

Blacephalon is fun to use and I think it's a really good pokemon. It's pretty trash right now though, I stopped using it because it's a complete deadweight against any team with AV Tar (to be fair, you're almost guaranteed to get a favourable double switch if you bring it in, but all it can do in that matchup is set up a double switch)

Stakataka is good. I disagree with the sentiments about its use on TR though. Stakataka is a really good OTR mon on non-TR, and it can really turn the tide against offensive teams. On the flip side, I feel like although it's perfectly usable on TR, It doesn't really add anything new to the team, nor does it fix any weaknesses it use to have (if anything, it just makes those weaknesses worse). You end just replacing one of the sweepers with Stakataka and the results are honestly pretty similar.

Knock off on Pex and Kartana is really nice. Araquanid is pretty good, personally I like Choice Band sticky webs a lot. You can get a lot of damage done just clicking Liquidation a bunch and then finally using webs when they're scared as hell. Probably not the set of choice on a dedicated webs team though.
 
Gliscor:
What I really like about Gliscor is that has access to Taunt/Defog/Roost on a speedy + special defensive set , dealing with pretty much any passive ST/Spikes setter in the game.

The Problem is: Having only EQ means you are Landorus-Therian bait, kinda. I thought about dropping Roost for Ice Fang but without Roost you aren't able to "outstall" HP Ice Landorus if you are faster(and you should invest speed because of things like...Bisharp)

Naganadel:
I initally thought that due to Naganadel having a lot of "not-bad-mon" checks like Tyranitar/Heatran and stuff like Weavile that isn't broken, just very very good.
The problem is though, some people run crazy stuff like Yache Berry and some HP investment to avoid the OHKO after SR, and sadly it works.

Heck, even Healing Wish + Veil "standard"(=best set) Naganadel works, like I understand why people say it is broken: If you still win even if you put all your eggs in one basket so to speak, well what can I say? Crazy mon.
 
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Some things I've been playing around with that do decent against Naga and haven't been brought up much in this thread. Most of them need rocks or prior chip damage.


AV Mage:

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 206-244 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Naganadel: 238-282 (82.3 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Various Mamoswine:

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 221-265 (76.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 254-302 (88.1 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Mamo doesn't even need an Ice move.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 549-650 (191.2 - 226.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, Mamo ONLY works when Naga is at neutral and has used up its Z-move, and even then you aren't totally safe.

252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 313-370 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

So yeah, Mamo basically is bad versus Naga due to speed tiers. Also, I've never seen a Banded Mamo.
 
Mamo doesn't even need an Ice move.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 549-650 (191.2 - 226.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, Mamo ONLY works when Naga is at neutral and has used up its Z-move, and even then you aren't totally safe.

252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 313-370 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

So yeah, Mamo basically is bad versus Naga due to speed tiers. Also, I've never seen a Banded Mamo.
Actually, the calc was relevant because ice shard is a priority, so it does not have to care about speed tiers.
 
Still, Naga can easily just Z-Draco at neutral or do this:

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 354-418 (98 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
If you're not using Ice Shard, why would you use Mamo at all against Naganadel. It would be extremely risky to click anything other than Ice Shard, which basically makes all of your calculations pretty irrelevant.

It's interesting though that even Banded Mamo can't guarantee OHKO this thing without chip. I've definitely had games where Nag lives on 3% and just sweeps the rest of the team
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Mamo doesn't even need an Ice move.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 549-650 (191.2 - 226.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, Mamo ONLY works when Naga is at neutral and has used up its Z-move, and even then you aren't totally safe.

252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 313-370 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

So yeah, Mamo basically is bad versus Naga due to speed tiers. Also, I've never seen a Banded Mamo.
What.

The sole reason you would be using Mamo in this meta is to Ice Shard Naga. No shit a STAB EQ coming from a Pokemon with base 130 Attack mon can kill a physically frail Poison-type. The point is, Mamo threatens out Naga or revenge kills weakened ones with LO Ice Shard. Naga outspeeding Mamo is entirely irrelevant because Shard has priority. It doesn't even kill tho funnily enough but still what you're saying is entirely irrelevant.
 
IM gonna go die now tysm guys

(I’m only half kidding but yea I was dumb guess I can’t do OU OR ANY META)

But on a serious note, Veil is awesome. Honestly, Veil allows Naga to set up so easily it’s not even funny. Combine that with something like Ditto and you have a great core ahead.

Inb4 people say THATs a bad opinion too
 

Indigo Plateau

is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
UU Leader
Most of my thoughts are just regurgitating what people have said, but I'd figure I'd chime in bc why not.


Everyone knows that this over-centralizes the tier, and tbh it probably won't be long until it goes. You don't need any other set besides NP + 3 Atks, where I have seen some of them running HP Ground to lure the likes of Heatran and Stakataka. I haven't found this too hard to deal with, but then again, I have a TTar and Mamoswine on basically every team now lol.

Good Partners: Basically anything offensive that can pressure the likes of TTar and Heatran.
(CM Z)



Not gonna lie, the clown has been better than what I expected. Fire/Ghost stab is incredible and is hitting basically the entire meta neutrally. I have personally had more success with a Specs set, as I usually find myself using a different Scarfer if I'm in need of one, and I like Specs' ability to break through any fat team without TTar. TTar isn't hard to lure or weaken by other means, but personally, I really haven't had a hard time dealing with this because I'm able to consistently keep my TTar healthy to counter it. When I see a Latios, for example, I come to expect EQ or Surf now and play accordingly. While we're at it, I do think that Blacephalon will get better in the long run - hopefully TTar won't be everywhere after Naganadel gets banned and then Blacephalon will be even more of a threat (seriously, it destroys Mega Venu balance almost by itself. Probably my favorite out of the lot.

Good Partners:



My two cents on things that I have been enjoying more atm and things I feel aren't as good as they're made out to be:


I've been pretty much using this on almost every team. It really appreciates the rise of slow, bulky Tar, SpDef Tran, as well as Naganadel. Being an offensive SR that can pressure Gliscor/Landorus-T is a huge plus for it, and with its massive attack stat + Ice/Ground coverage, it's bound to be a pain in the ass for most teams. It still hates Greninja being everywhere (at least from my one day of ladder testing lol), but if you can play aggressively with it, you'll see good results.


I used this a bit and imo, it's really underwhelming. It suffers from 4MSS and I usually just ended up dropping Pain Split and made it the typical berry set because the other 3 are too important to pass up on. It's really easy to wear down, even with the spikes immunity because its bulk is just not enough to withstand the power present in OU. I think Rotom's case is more of a new toy syndrome due to Defog + nostalgia from Gen 6 + Volt Switch, but I probably see it getting worse in the future.


Although not as good as I initially thought, I've found ways to make Gliscor work with fatter teams. It has good defensive typing and utility in Toxic / Taunt / Knock / SD / Roost plus the newly acquired Defog now, giving it very solid role compression overall. Still a bit unexplored if you ask me due to Lando-T also gaining Defog and being so damn versatile, but a core like Gliscor + Tox can get annoying very easily.


From my short ladder experience, Scarf Greninja was aboslutely everywhere as it's one of the easiest ways to kill Naga after a speed boost. Apart from checking Naga, it forms a solid offensive core with it, being able to force so may things out due to its vast coverage and bring Naga in for a potential sweep. I even saw Ash-Gren a good amount of times since it pressures the hell out of TTar and Tran, two mons which have spiked in popularity due to Naga & Blace.


There's a few other things that I don't have much time to talk about, like Knock Off Pex (I usually keep Scald tbh), Mega Latios, and Stakataka, but those have been mentioned before and I haven't used them enough. I'm really excited for what the meta holds once (hopefully) Naganadel gets banned. Not too different, but definitely more versatile :toast:
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Here's why I don't think Naganadel is broken

1. It's frail. Obviously frailty isn't a good excuse by itself, but Naganadel has a typing that provides it with little set up opportunities compared to something like Pheromosa, for instance, Pheromosa had the ability to set up on the most common Pokemon in the tier (Defensive Lando-T), and was literally impossible to revenge kill Speed-wise, your only bets were your own +Spe Scarf Pheromosa, or priority assuming it wasn't paired with Lele. Naganadel is slower and obviously, it has its own slew of viable Pokemon that are capable of revenge killing it and pressuring it at +1 Spe. A list of some includes Scarf Greninja, which now has new life breathed into its niche instead of just a mediocre scarfer people slapped onto teams for Volc insurance, Granted there's only 2 scarfers (Koko is very borderline for revenging Naga anyway), theres still other methods of Speed control, including Rain, Sand Drill, Hawlucha + ANY TAPU (this one is particularly huge because its so damn threatening to offense and it shuts down so many threats too). There's also more than enough priority moves in the tier that will chip it very quickly and pressure it, this is a lot more obvious when you add in SR, potential Spikes and Sand. To list some of these moves: Mega Lopunny with Fake Out and Quick Attack, Mega Medicham with Fake Out and Bullet Punch, Mega Pinsir with Quick Attack, Mega Scizor with Bullet Punch, Weavile and Mamoswine with Ice Shard, Weavile also has Pursuit to completely remove Naga from play if needed. Zygarde with Extreme Speed, Bisharp with Sucker Punch. All of these moves go a long way in showing how how frail Naga is and how easily it can be picked off thanks to its frailty.

2. It provides a well needed addition for offense teams, as it currently stands, offense teams have no good Toxic Spike removers, as they will either lose to Toxapex (Gengar and Scolipede) or generally have no room on offense (Venusaur and Amoonguss), or are constantly getting ran into the dirt by metagame trends (Gengar again and Tapu Fini). Fini's not an absorber, but it usually provides /decent/ countermeasures against Pex thanks to its Terrain and Defog. As it currently stands, the tier has banned too many Pokemon that beat Toxapex, increasingly making it harder, if not NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to punish use of it, and it doesn't seem like a Toxapex ban is on the councils slate, despite nearly all of them hating it and agreeing its not a healthy presence (???), I don't get it.

3. The immediate overreaction to Naga's presence in the tier. This is an odd one, the Pokemon wasn't even released for a day, yet people were claiming it was 100% mandatory to have AV TTar or SpD Heatran to beat it, I've played 70+ ladder games of USUM at 1800+ elo and have not used a single AV TTar or Heatran, this claim is completely false and it's just a case of builder-paranoia which puts everything into a vacuum and can make anything look like a legit threat if you look at it in the right way. I will even provide a list of all the teams I have used so far and can confirm that all of these teams work perfectly fine, despite not having any of the """"mandatory"""" Pokemon required to beat Naganadel.



4. Defensive answers. Albeit defensive answers are a little harder to find due to Naga's immunity to Toxic and ability to blow through all Unaware users, there's still viable options out there, SpD Tran is very solid at limiting Naga, as well as AV TTar (this mon isn't particularly good but it's found a niche in the tier so that's something, just because something encourages something out of the ordinary doesn't mean we should jump the gun!). There's also Chansey which gets off 2 tosses leaving it very weak and Naga doesn't even come out with a guaranteed kill vs it, so interpret that however you want. Ditto has also seen use on bulkier teams, it's by no means mandatory, but it's an extremely good Naga deterrent, and in general is VERY effective in this offense-heavy meta we currently have.
edit: I also forgot to mention Stakataka which is very self explanatory as it can live +2 Fire Blast and +2 DDrake and set up Trick Room in Nagas face or just OHKO it with Gyro, which is a huge deal against most of the teams you'll find Naga on.

5. It's one dimensional. Scarf, Specs, and Life Orb are mediocre compared to Dragonium Z, granted they can always pick off random kills with surprise factor despite being bad, this can be applied to any high tier OU Pokemon. On top of this, after the meta has been given time to actually develop a bit, Pokemon are accommodating for it more, things like Keldeo are running Icy Wind more, other things like Natures Madness Bulu is more common and is very nice for punishing Naga considering how freely it comes in (another good point about Naga, it keeps some extremely annoying Pokemon in check like Bulu too). Also, for those that have been playing the ladder lately, you'll be familiar with the ridiculous amount of Trick Room teams on the ladder which generally hinders Naga teams a ton too.

With all that said, I really do not think Naganadel is a broken force in the tier, and rather should be welcomed as a fine addition to the tier, nerfing Toxapex which made the SM meta stale and extremely centralised around it for the longest time, making for a fine buff to offense. I think its sweeping capabilities are weaker than Magearnas, mostly due to the lack of versatility in comparison. Magearna has the potential for 5 different Z-moves in its sets, and 3 forms of set up, and an incredibly useful defensive set too, and has the most powerful scouting punishing capabilities in the entire tier.
 
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I think its sweeping capabilities are weaker than Magearnas, mostly due to the lack of versatility in comparison. Magearna has the potential for 5 different Z-moves in its sets, and 3 forms of set up, and an incredibly useful defensive set too, and has the most powerful scouting punishing capabilities in the entire tier.
I'm about to go to bed and I don't have the time for a full reply (maybe tomorrow) but I'm definitely going to respond to this bit right now, because I don't understand how this even makes sense to you. You've literally just said you believe Magearna is a better sweeper because it has about 5 different Z-Moves it can use to hit various checks while ignoring the fact that Naga only needs 1 set to absolutely demolish like 90% of the metagame. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that seems like a blatant contradiction to me to say a Pokemon that can't hit everything it wants to hit with one set is better than one that can.
 

A

Joker fan
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
I made a somewhat popular AV Tyranitar spread along the first two days of USM's release and it has indeed to be proven notable, though reception to it is extremely mixed (the concept of AV TTar in general, ppl either really love it or hate it)

Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 232 HP / 24 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Ice Beam / Fire Blast

The spread allows you to deal 94% minimum to Naganadel with EQ, which guarantees a KO with Sand Stream. The bulk lets you greatly stomach a +2 DDrake as well as other devastating special attacks. Something to note is that the 4th moveslot is pretty open and flexible, Ice Beam is a good catch all since Naga often tries to at least weasel out to something like Defensive Landorus-T which Ice Beam can generally answer, or Fire Blast if you're all about busting through Kart, Ferro or Mega Scizor. Another thing to note is since you're running Tyranitar, the option of Excadrill as a partner is pretty solid as it lets you punish common partners such as Specs Koko.

Ironically, this TTar could also be a legit partner for Naga as one way or another you can give some pressure to some of its common answers like Heatran and Magearna (whilst taking little to no damage), as well as possibly play the 50-50 and trap something like Scarf Greninja locked into Ice Beam and secure a safe Naganadel sweep later down the line.

Lastly I think Mew can get away with running Psychic for the time being, it can dent Toxapex and has a pretty nice shot of bopping Naganadel as most try to setup vs Mew because IB only ever does around 65% max.
 
I have a feeling that Naganeel is sort of like the Tapu Lele hype that happened in early SM that landed it in S class, only for people to find out that it isn't as broken at it seems to be. I think it is too early in the meta to tell whether or not naganeel is too unhealthy for the tier as the meta hasn't even settled down yet, with it only released a days ago. Give it another week or two, and if it still quite over-centralizing as it is now, then it would make more sense for people to say it is broken. Look at Tapu Lele, who was an S class offensive mon who is now only an A tier mon. Also, I feel that people might find other more reliable checks to naganeel, like what happened to Tapu Lele.

Wait for a while people. Although it cannot be disagreed that Naganeel is a very powerful and dominant force in OU atm, it still is too early.
 
I have a feeling that Naganeel is sort of like the Tapu Lele hype that happened in early SM that landed it in S class, only for people to find out that it isn't as broken at it seems to be. I think it is too early in the meta to tell whether or not naganeel is too unhealthy for the tier as the meta hasn't even settled down yet, with it only released a days ago. Give it another week or two, and if it still quite over-centralizing as it is now, then it would make more sense for people to say it is broken. Look at Tapu Lele, who was an S class offensive mon who is now only an A tier mon. Also, I feel that people might find other more reliable checks to naganeel, like what happened to Tapu Lele.

Wait for a while people. Although it cannot be disagreed that Naganeel is a very powerful and dominant force in OU atm, it still is too early.
We have already seen enough. People are being forced to run either ice shard, Spdef heatran, Scarf greninja, or mediocre sets like av tyranitar or empoleon, and Naganadels team can play around defensive checks through spikes, as all of them are grounded. Naganadel completely invalidates rain, which used to be everywhere, is now nowhere to be seen. It also 2HKOs the entire meta except for spdef heatran or AV tyranitar. It’s constraint on teambuilding and lack of defensive or offensive counterplay make it too much for ou too handle.
We didn’t wait 2 weeks for marshadow to ban it, as it was clearly broken. Therefore, your point is moot.
If you have a legitimate anti ban argument, trust me, I would love to hear it, and I bet others would too.
 
Having not used Rotom-W at all this gen, I was pretty surprised how much the power creep has affected its bulk. It really doesn't seem very bulky anymore. In any case, I still have really enjoyed using it as a defogger, it's typing/immunity is still very helpful and it has a lot of very good matchups against common setters. I ended up replacing Pain Split with Defog because non-WoW Rotom-W is just significantly less scary to switch into. Replacing leftovers with Iapapa berry has also been somewhat successful. I'm curious to know how other people are building Rotom-W, are they getting rid of WoW/one of its stabs and keeping lefties?
I've been using the following set and foregoing Volt Switch and WoW.

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP + Stuff
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Defog

Haven't been a huge fan of Rotom without some kind of recovery. It just gets worn down way too easily. As for WoW, Burns are always nice but with the nerf coming into SM some mons don't mind them all that much and I've still found the para chance from Discharge really nice to discourage free switchins. No Volt Switch for momentum sucks sometimes but I haven't missed it all that much in practice. Actually beating Pex and Steela 1v1 without having to switch to another mon is also really nice.

We have already seen enough. People are being forced to run either ice shard, Spdef heatran, Scarf greninja, or mediocre sets like av tyranitar or empoleon, and Naganadels team can play around defensive checks through spikes, as all of them are grounded. Naganadel completely invalidates rain, which used to be everywhere, is now nowhere to be seen. It also 2HKOs the entire meta except for spdef heatran or AV tyranitar. It’s constraint on teambuilding and lack of defensive or offensive counterplay make it too much for ou too handle.
Almost any legitimate threat in OU can seem like this if you talk about it in this exaggerated context. People are already forced to run bulky af Steels cuz of Lele, Ground types cuz of Koko...etc.

Also I don't understand these "Naga invalidates Rain" comments I've been seeing. If anything Naga doesn't have the easiest time with Rain at all since it's very hard pressed to set up against Rain. Steels like Magearna and Celesteela also cause it a lot more problems as it can't just nuke them with w/e Fire move it's running. Hawlucha TERrain is also a problem for it. Imo rain will be fine.
 
I've been using the following set and foregoing Volt Switch and WoW.

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP + Stuff
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Defog

Haven't been a huge fan of Rotom without some kind of recovery. It just gets worn down way too easily. As for WoW, Burns are always nice but with the nerf coming into SM some mons don't mind them all that much and I've still found the para chance from Discharge really nice to discourage free switchins. No Volt Switch for momentum sucks sometimes but I haven't missed it all that much in practice. Actually beating Pex and Steela 1v1 without having to switch to another mon is also really nice.



Almost any legitimate threat in OU can seem like this if you talk about it in this exaggerated context. People are already forced to run bulky af Steels cuz of Lele, Ground types cuz of Koko...etc.

Also I don't understand these "Naga invalidates Rain" comments I've been seeing. If anything Naga doesn't have the easiest time with Rain at all since it's very hard pressed to set up against Rain. Steels like Magearna and Celesteela also cause it a lot more problems as it can't just nuke them with w/e Fire move it's running. Hawlucha TERrain is also a problem for it. Imo rain will be fine.
The main difference here is that you don’t run these just for those threats you mentioned. Bulky steels have a bunch of other uses besides checking lele because of how much they Wall, and bulky ground types wall a bunch of other Pokémon, while offensive ground types are a pain in the butt to switch into. Even then, if you lose these Pokémon in the battle or you chose not to run them for some reason, you don’t auto lose, as Tapu Koko can be revenged by scarfers, and Tapu Lele is very easy to revenge kill for offensive teams, while balance teams have celesteela, a hard counter, (not just for lele) and other bulky steels. Balance also usually has Pokémon faster than lele to revenge kill.
 

AM

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tapu koko and lele have been broken along with at least 5 blatantly obvious mons minimum that make this tier incredibly awful to invest any sort of real effort or time in. That revenge kill logic is so surface to begin with, its used as a point to justify banning stuff to in terms of team constraint and Im beginning to hate that logic when we flip flop on what should be banned or not based off of a situational aspect of revenge killing that is never certain. Im on my phone so long posts arent fun to type out, but the status quo of OU needs to change before there can be any sort of true balance in the tier. A lot of the points mentioned in p2s post directly or hint towards this.
 
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I'm not going to argue about the state of the OU metagame outside of Naganadel but I am going to point out that it is entirely irrelevant in the face of a discussion about Naganadel's impact on the metagame. Pex, Koko, and Lele might very well be broken but that is no reason to keep Naga in the tier.
 
Banning/Unbanning mons as well as defining "broken" has always been too subjective with the current system and that in itself trickles down into meta discussion about mons that may or may not be broken regularly. Everyone has their own opinion and ideal metagame so this is pretty expected.

Nothing is going to change in the future unless the system does. I've always thought deciding on some kind of statistical and objectively identifiable criteria would help the process and thus discussion/mentality of the status quo a lot but this probably isn't the place for this discussion...
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
So I'm currently running a rain team in USUM, and a friend of mine who is 1800+ keeps telling me that Naga invalidates my team. I run Koko (Fairium Z which OHKOs) +hawlucha (outspeeds +1 nag) and AV Mag (Immune to both stabs, takes like no damage from even firium under rain) to check Naga, and sure while one may claim that half my team is needed to check Naga, all of these pokemon are incredibly good on their own and play absolutely fine on their own. Can someone tell me how exactly Naga invalidates my team any more than it is a huge issue for any other team?

This obviously isn't a teambuilding thread, just a metagame discussion thread. That being said, I think rain as an archetype is totally fine and not really constrained too much by Naga's presence, it just needs some of the mons I mentioned above. Of course, this is just me talking out of my ass at a 1700 ladder level, if there are weaknesses at the super high levels I'd love to here about them so I can improve my team or move to a different archetype.
 
So I'm currently running a rain team in USUM, and a friend of mine who is 1800+ keeps telling me that Naga invalidates my team. I run Koko (Fairium Z which OHKOs) +hawlucha (outspeeds +1 nag) and AV Mag (Immune to both stabs, takes like no damage from even firium under rain) to check Naga, and sure while one may claim that half my team is needed to check Naga, all of these pokemon are incredibly good on their own and play absolutely fine on their own. Can someone tell me how exactly Naga invalidates my team any more than it is a huge issue for any other team?

This obviously isn't a teambuilding thread, just a metagame discussion thread. That being said, I think rain as an archetype is totally fine and not really constrained too much by Naga's presence, it just needs some of the mons I mentioned above. Of course, this is just me talking out of my ass at a 1700 ladder level, if there are weaknesses at the super high levels I'd love to here about them so I can improve my team or move to a different archetype.
The main issue with this argument is while yes, AV magearna and special z move Tapu Koko aren’t bad pokemon, There is no reason to use them over Ferrothorn and Z Wild charge or choice specs Tapu Koko except to check Naganadel. This proves Nagandels unhealthy effect on the tier.
 
the difference between naganadel and other strong pokemon is one of compromise. lele needs to run sets that compromise on at least one major strength it has to take advantage of others, often choice locking itself for the sake of speed or damage, so even if it has a lot of strengths, it can't really use all of them at once. ash-greninja is just a mediocre pokemon with no protean until it gets a kill, so it's also either choice locking itself into what isn't going to be the best STAB coverage in the world, or it's going to have an even harder time getting that first kill. neither of these pokemon are tolerable solely because some pokemon can wall it, or because it's frail, because those weaknesses on their own really don't mean too much.

naganadel, otoh, has bar-none one of the best, easiest sets in gen 7 with draco-z NP, if not the best and easiest outright. choice sets aren't nearly as good, because dragon/poison/fire is only good coverage when you can choose between the three freely, but naganadel already has good speed that becomes amazing speed after a single kill, and nasty plot mixed in with a +2 z-draco lets it kill a majority of the metagame on its own, so in practice there's no meaningful reason for it to be choice-locked.

The biggest problems one could give it is that it needs a free turn to set up, that a very small handful of sets can consistently wall it, and that priority ice moves exist, and none of those actually, truly require it to change anything, because set up moves taking time, pokemon being walled sometimes and priority being really good is the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel when it comes to weaknesses. the reason you can technically apply such weaknesses to any other pokemon in OU is because you can apply those weaknesses to damn near every pokemon not named mega-rayquaza, because if you don't have something else holding them back on top of it, none of those weaknesses actually matter.

"it's one-dimensional" is only a valuable argument when that one dimension isn't so good that everything else becomes wrapped around it. if it does only one thing, and the entire metagame is shaped around that one thing being done really, really well, then if anything, that simply solidifies how much of a threat it is, and even if you want to argue that tapu lele is still bad for the meta, it wouldn't change how the strength gap between lele and naganadel is mountains.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
The main issue with this argument is while yes, AV magearna and special z move Tapu Koko aren’t bad pokemon, There is no reason to use them over Ferrothorn and Z Wild charge or choice specs Tapu Koko except to check Naganadel. This proves Nagandels unhealthy effect on the tier.
So heres the thing. I'm totally for banning Naga. I made an alt to try and learn this new meta, and it was so clear the restrictions that it put on team building, I was 1700 on my main account and I could barely make it to the 1500s because I tried to play Naga-less (until I tried this rain team I made which had enough counterplay to Naga). I just don't think rain is dead, even if Naga remains a presence in the tier, it just needs to adapt. Its just weird to think that one character is supposedly invalidating an archetype when I think that its gravely untrue.
 
So heres the thing. I'm totally for banning Naga. I made an alt to try and learn this new meta, and it was so clear the restrictions that it put on team building, I was 1700 on my main account and I could barely make it to the 1500s because I tried to play Naga-less (until I tried this rain team I made which had enough counterplay to Naga). I just don't think rain is dead, even if Naga remains a presence in the tier, it just needs to adapt. Its just weird to think that one character is supposedly invalidating an archetype when I think that its gravely untrue.
Rain certainly doesn't die, but if you run the Speed-Boosting Z-Dragonium set and get rid of Ferrothorn, Naganadel outspeeds everything outside of Jolly Kingdra (which isn't a set). You also resist priority like Aqua Jet, which feels bad for Rain.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Rain certainly doesn't die, but if you run the Speed-Boosting Z-Dragonium set and get rid of Ferrothorn, Naganadel outspeeds everything outside of Jolly Kingdra (which isn't a set). You also resist priority like Aqua Jet, which feels bad for Rain.
Sorry don't mean to multi post, but thats why I'm running AV Mag, and hawlucha, specifically to wall and outspeed Nag respectively. I don't even run Kingdra.
 
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