Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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The main difference here is that you don’t run these just for those threats you mentioned.
And AV TTar, SpD Heatran, Scarf Gren, and Chansey are all useful for checking more than Naganadel. It’s not like Mega Metagross where an otherwise unviable mon was run just to reliably check it. AV TTar is good in this meta even without Naga.

The main issue with this argument is while yes, AV magearna and special z move Tapu Koko aren’t bad pokemon, There is no reason to use them over Ferrothorn and Z Wild charge or choice specs Tapu Koko except to check Naganadel. This proves Nagandels unhealthy effect on the tier.
what. Rain as a playstyle isn’t nearly as linear as you seem to be implying.

I really don’t think Naga should be quick banned, at least not yet. A lot of the complaints I’ve seen are pretty kneejerk, tbh. People need some more time to play against it and let the meta develop before it can be definitively said to be broken.

The sad thing is that it seems people have already made up their minds.
 

Jordy

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Tapu Koko has and will never be(en) broken.


Rotom-Wash @ Iapapa Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp / Pain Split

This is the Rotom-W set i've been using, just the standard EV spread. Defog has actually helped this Pokemon a lot, i think the last slot is pretty debatable since its between crippling physical attackers and having a way to recover health, personally i prefer wisp because it can check a lot of physical attackers even better then without it and split is pretty unreliable. I prefer Iapapa over Leftovers because of the one time burst in hp if u opt to drop wisp Leftovers can still be pretty nice because it allows u to stay healthier easier but imo it should only be used with split.


Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower / Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog

I believe life orb Tornadus or Tornadus in general is very slept on it is extremely hard to prevent from defogging because of how fast it is to use Defog before it gets taunted and its coverage options, Superpower hits Bisharp which is OU's main measure to discourage Defog right now and U-turn lets it properly pivot out.

/

For the time i have been using webs i used Ribombee for some matches and its truly ass lmao, it seems way better on paper then it is in actual practice. Araquanid on the other hand is very good, it can't get burned by Mega Sableye which allows it to break it with liquidation defense drops, it also gets Magic Coat to potentially get up rocks if the opponent wants to go for it. Unfortunately it's very slow and fails to get up webs against mons like Mega Lopunny or Mega Medicham which Ribombee doesn't because of its immunity to flinches from Fake Out.

 
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And AV TTar, SpD Heatran, Scarf Gren, and Chansey are all useful for checking more than Naganadel. It’s not like Mega Metagross where an otherwise unviable mon was run just to reliably check it. AV TTar is good in this meta even without Naga.



what. Rain as a playstyle isn’t nearly as linear as you seem to be implying.

I really don’t think Naga should be quick banned, at least not yet. A lot of the complaints I’ve seen are pretty kneejerk, tbh. People need some more time to play against it and let the meta develop before it can be definitively said to be broken.

The sad thing is that it seems people have already made up their minds.
I wasn’t saying that Chansey, Heatran, and Scarf Greninja were horrible pokemon. All I was saying is that if people are forced to run these mons on every team, then there is a problem. Spdef heatran has its uses, but Heatran most of the time would rather be running the utitly trapper set, other teams may rather run Scarf Keldeo if they need its ability to switch into (ash) greninja, But they can’t due to Naganadel.
That being said, thinking more into it, it may be a good idea to observe tournaments and higher ladder a bit longer with Naganadel, But I’m still not entirely sure if this is the best idea, as Naganadel has been having an unhealthy effect on the tier, for the reasoning i mentioned earlier.
 

Leo

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I'm personally in favor of a Naganadel qb but seeing as this anti-ban post got a lot of support I figured I'd address these arguments since I disagree with most of them
Here's why I don't think Naganadel is broken

1. It's frail. Obviously frailty isn't a good excuse by itself, but Naganadel has a typing that provides it with little set up opportunities compared to something like Pheromosa, for instance, Pheromosa had the ability to set up on the most common Pokemon in the tier (Defensive Lando-T), and was literally impossible to revenge kill Speed-wise, your only bets were your own +Spe Scarf Pheromosa, or priority assuming it wasn't paired with Lele.
Naganadel actually finds plenty of set up opportunities from my experience, mainly because mons that could punish its set up (defensive Lando, Ferro w Gyro Ball, etc) don't want to stay in on it and get nuked by either the zmove or one of its coverage moves. This is pretty big since Naga is usually paired with cleaners like Ash Gren Koko Lop that would become a nuisance if the aforementioned mons were removed from the game, turning most of these scenarios into 50-50 which favor the Naganadel user. This is in addition to the mons it naturally uses as set up fodder like Toxapex.
Naganadel is slower and obviously, it has its own slew of viable Pokemon that are capable of revenge killing it and pressuring it at +1 Spe. A list of some includes Scarf Greninja, which now has new life breathed into its niche instead of just a mediocre scarfer people slapped onto teams for Volc insurance, Granted there's only 2 scarfers (Koko is very borderline for revenging Naga anyway), theres still other methods of Speed control, including Rain, Sand Drill, Hawlucha + ANY TAPU (this one is particularly huge because its so damn threatening to offense and it shuts down so many threats too).
I think the last 3 methods of revenge killing you mentioned shouldn't be put in the same bag as scarf gren and koko since they're more team specific and don't apply to most builds. Against Rain teams Naga usually doesn't try to set up and instead break holes just with its zmoves and coverage when its on the field against Peli/Ferro since Rain can't fit a proper defensive answer for it, which pretty much guarantees it one kill or two every game with proper prediction. This is an example of a bad matchup for Naga, where it still could manage to do something despite having to deal with rain sweepers+lucha. Next is Sand, an even worse Naga matchup because Tyranitar is one of the best Naganadel defensive answers available. With the pressure of Drill always ready to rkill and Tyranitar removing it from the game without set up, Naganadel can't really do much here. That said, Sand is still a rare playstyle with low tour and ladder usage in general and not that relevant imo. Last is Hawlucha, which only gets one speed boost per game so as long as the Naga user doesn't give up a lot of hp on Naga while setting up and has a proper Hawlucha answer in the back, this shouldn't be that big of an issue.
There's also more than enough priority moves in the tier that will chip it very quickly and pressure it, this is a lot more obvious when you add in SR, potential Spikes and Sand. To list some of these moves: Mega Lopunny with Fake Out and Quick Attack, Mega Medicham with Fake Out and Bullet Punch, Mega Pinsir with Quick Attack, Mega Scizor with Bullet Punch, Weavile and Mamoswine with Ice Shard, Weavile also has Pursuit to completely remove Naga from play if needed. Zygarde with Extreme Speed, Bisharp with Sucker Punch. All of these moves go a long way in showing how how frail Naga is and how easily it can be picked off thanks to its frailty.
Priority is probably the best way to deal with Naga offensively without using Scarf Gren and I'll admit that having at least one of these mons can improve a team's matchup against Naga. However, this still doesn't prevent Naga from setting up and breaking holes in the opposing team's backbone, which is the main purpose of Naga. These mons can only revenge kill it with a free turn, which is only granted to them if a) you sack something to Naga or b) you're willing to risk switching into a predicted NP, another 50-50 that favors the Naga user because of Beast Boost. Once Naga has managed to set up and ko your pex/ferro/clef/any other defensive mon the Naga user doesn't really mind not sweeping with it since its teammates should be able to capitalize on these holes and do the job. Naga doesn't need to sweep to do its job
It provides a well needed addition for offense teams, as it currently stands, offense teams have no good Toxic Spike removers, as they will either lose to Toxapex (Gengar and Scolipede) or generally have no room on offense (Venusaur and Amoonguss), or are constantly getting ran into the dirt by metagame trends (Gengar again and Tapu Fini). Fini's not an absorber, but it usually provides /decent/ countermeasures against Pex thanks to its Terrain and Defog. As it currently stands, the tier has banned too many Pokemon that beat Toxapex, increasingly making it harder, if not NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to punish use of it, and it doesn't seem like a Toxapex ban is on the councils slate, despite nearly all of them hating it and agreeing its not a healthy presence (???), I don't get it.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean but from what I understand you think Naga's fine because it punishes Pex and its tspikes, which is something the tier needed. I don't really agree with this because, while Pex is indeed one of the hardest defensive Pokemon to punish and/or lure because of its insane bulk and Regen, and tspikes are extremely annoying for offense, keeping such a restraining mon as Naganadel for the sake of nerfing Pex is not worth it. If Toxapex's defensive capabilities make it broken then it should get a suspect when time comes but a mon with so little counterplay like Naganadel certainly isn't what the tier needs for it.
3. The immediate overreaction to Naga's presence in the tier. This is an odd one, the Pokemon wasn't even released for a day, yet people were claiming it was 100% mandatory to have AV TTar or SpD Heatran to beat it, I've played 70+ ladder games of USUM at 1800+ elo and have not used a single AV TTar or Heatran, this claim is completely false and it's just a case of builder-paranoia which puts everything into a vacuum and can make anything look like a legit threat if you look at it in the right way. I will even provide a list of all the teams I have used so far and can confirm that all of these teams work perfectly fine, despite not having any of the """"mandatory"""" Pokemon required to beat Naganadel
AV Tyranitar and SpD Heatran are two of the few defensive answers for Naganadel but that doesn't mean that teams without them are going to get swept by it as shown by some of the teams you provided. Heavy offensive pressure, Weavile, Scarf Gren, twave Chansey, etc are means you've been using to handle it and as I said before they will stop it from sweeping but it's still going to get kos before that happens.
4. Defensive answers. Albeit defensive answers are a little harder to find due to Naga's immunity to Toxic and ability to blow through all Unaware users, there's still viable options out there, SpD Tran is very solid at limiting Naga, as well as AV TTar (this mon isn't particularly good but it's found a niche in the tier so that's something, just because something encourages something out of the ordinary doesn't mean we should jump the gun!). There's also Chansey which gets off 2 tosses leaving it very weak and Naga doesn't even come out with a guaranteed kill vs it, so interpret that however you want. Ditto has also seen use on bulkier teams, it's by no means mandatory, but it's an extremely good Naga deterrent, and in general is VERY effective in this offense-heavy meta we currently have.
edit: I also forgot to mention Stakataka which is very self explanatory as it can live +2 Fire Blast and +2 DDrake and set up Trick Room in Nagas face or just OHKO it with Gyro, which is a huge deal against most of the teams you'll find Naga on.
All of these defensive answers have their flaws that make them very unreliable at checking Naganadel. Heatran is heavily pressured by all of the Ttars running around, which get good chip on it with Pursuit and this+hazards can put it in range of Naganadel's boosted moves very quickly. Chansey is extremely passive and only really fits on Stall unless you count the wish killer team you were using. Even when you use Chansey you're still weak to Naganadel if the opponent has a Weavile (which is relatively common now with all of the Nagas running around) since you either lose your Eviolite or get chipped by Pursuit and are now in range after rocks. AV Tar is probably the only reliable answer but it's still a mon with no recovery that can be weakened and pressured so you need to keep it safely just for Naga.
It's one dimensional. Scarf, Specs, and Life Orb are mediocre compared to Dragonium Z, granted they can always pick off random kills with surprise factor despite being bad, this can be applied to any high tier OU Pokemon. On top of this, after the meta has been given time to actually develop a bit, Pokemon are accommodating for it more, things like Keldeo are running Icy Wind more, other things like Natures Madness Bulu is more common and is very nice for punishing Naga considering how freely it comes in (another good point about Naga, it keeps some extremely annoying Pokemon in check like Bulu too). Also, for those that have been playing the ladder lately, you'll be familiar with the ridiculous amount of Trick Room teams on the ladder which generally hinders Naga teams a ton too.
I don't see how this is an argument in favor of Naganadel. It may be one-dimensional but the truth is NP+ZMove+Beast Boost is all it needs to tear appart pretty much any team lacking AV Tar and a mon doesn't need to be able to run 4 different amazing sets to be broken when a single set is dumb. And Naga is still able to run Scarf and Specs effectively, they aren't mediocre they're just lacking when compared to NP because it's the best set by far. You also mention Trick Room here, which is one playstyle that excels agains Naganadel for obvious reasons and I don't get how this is a counter argument for a Naganadel suspect, it's just another niche playstyle that Naga doesn't do well against like Sand.

tl;dr Naganadel has the tools to do its job effectively in pretty much all matchups and most of its defensive answers aren't reliable at all, leaving priority and revenge killers as the most reliable counterplay for it, which only works after it's done its job and may prevent a sweep but won't stop its teammates from capitalizing on the holes Naganadel punched
 

bludz

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I feel inclined to respond to p2's post because while I think he makes some valid points, I also think that the conclusions he comes to based on the facts don't really match the picture I see.

1. Sure, Phero set up on defensive Lando (albeit usually putting it into range of any priority, should Lando stay in and attack), but Naga sets up on Pex. Lando is more common but not all are defensive. Pex can't necessarily spam Haze either because it undoes Draco Meteor drops, should Naga attack instead of setting up - providing a new opportunity to set up on a 50 50 that is in their favor. Honestly, a lot of Pheros were able to setup by forcing 50 50s (attack the setup or sac your mon) rather than simply saying fuck it and setting up in the face of something always, and Naga definitely has this feel to it as well.

And yes, Naganadel is kinda frail, but generally you need to hit it with more than one priority move, unlike Mosa which sorta just dropped to almost anything after minimal prior chip. Naganadel resists Water Shuriken which is probably the most common and strongest form of priority, as well. I'd also argue that Rain is a poor countermeasure as you would be forced to run Timid Kingdra, and Hawlucha needs about 2 SR switchins on Naga to win 1v1 (still a roll btw). I guess the main premise of my counter argument here would be that almost none of these things are sufficient countermeasures standalone, and you usually need multiple factors to revenge kill it. That or to secure sufficient chip damage, which is generally more than 1 SR switchin. Also Naga doesn't exactly have issues setting up.

2. This sorta boils down to keeping Naga to limit Pex's influence on the tier. Citing the council's unwillingness to suspect Toxapex doesn't make a broken checking broken argument valid.

3. All these teams contain either Heatran, Tyranitar, Stakataka, AV Magearna, and/or multiple forms of priority. It's pretty obvious that it's quite restricting if all teams are going to pack one (or multiple, in the case of most of your teams) of these 5-6 things to not be steamrolled.

4. Heatran, Tyranitar, Stakataka, AV Mage, Chansey, Blissey. That's a pretty short list, and you even admitted that Chansey has to be a sacrifice that allows you to revenge it after. Ditto fits more into point #1 about revenge killing.

5. Being one dimensional isn't a deciding factor for not being broken if that one dimension is just that good. I think the point about Magearna is debatable, but that's a separate argument if you ask me.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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tapu koko and lele have been broken along with at least 5 blatantly obvious mons minimum that make this tier incredibly awful to invest any sort of real effort or time in.


Not sure why you post if you are going to say the tier is not worth investing time into. Also, not sure why you would bother to make assertions like this, that clearly are not reflective of the popular opinion or even remotely accurate, without justifying them with any reasoning whatsoever (yea, I am aware you were on phone, but still, I feel like this could have either been avoided completely or saved for a better time if you actually felt it was the truth and had reasoning). With this said, I could not disagree more. The tier has Naganandel, which is clearly banworthy and should go soon, and then it is actually a pretty decent metagame. Do I think 1-2 things could potentially warrant a suspect in the future? Yea, maybe. Does that mean anything is blatantly broken? No. Does that make the tier "incredibly awful to invest any sort of real effort or time in (to)"? Absolutely not, that's an absurd stretch.

--

Here's why I don't think Naganadel is broken
Here's why this is one of the worst posts in this thread.

1. It's frail. Obviously frailty isn't a good excuse by itself, but Naganadel has a typing that provides it with little set up opportunities compared to something like Pheromosa, for instance, Pheromosa had the ability to set up on the most common Pokemon in the tier (Defensive Lando-T), and was literally impossible to revenge kill Speed-wise, your only bets were your own +Spe Scarf Pheromosa, or priority assuming it wasn't paired with Lele.
Ok, let's start here. This is flat out wrong and if you have been assuming this throughout your arguments and playing of the tier, then obviously you do not understand how Naganandel functions or why it is as broken as it is. Pheromosa had 71/37/37 bulk, meaning it died to a lot of priority from very high amounts of health and even uninvested, resisted hits like Earthquake from Landorus-T are doing over 60%. On the contrary, Naganandel has 73/73/73 bulk, which is by no means spectacular, but it allows it to set up often enough and much more than something like Pheromosa -- it can set up on Tapu Koko, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Clefable, Tapu Bulu, Chansey, Keldeo, Rotom-Wash, Mega-Sableye, Tangrowth, Zapdos, Mantine, Alomomola, etc. and plenty more if you force a switch-out, which is pretty much the only way your Pheromosa set-up ever. It is pretty easy for a Naganandel user to get a free turn to set-up. The only remote "trouble" would be running into healthy AV Tyranitar or SDef Heatran, which is the only defensive counterplay the tier truly has and the means of stopping Naganandel from sweeping.

Naganadel is slower and obviously, it has its own slew of viable Pokemon that are capable of revenge killing it and pressuring it at +1 Spe. A list of some includes Scarf Greninja, which now has new life breathed into its niche instead of just a mediocre scarfer people slapped onto teams for Volc insurance, Granted there's only 2 scarfers (Koko is very borderline for revenging Naga anyway), theres still other methods of Speed control, including Rain, Sand Drill, Hawlucha + ANY TAPU (this one is particularly huge because its so damn threatening to offense and it shuts down so many threats too). There's also more than enough priority moves in the tier that will chip it very quickly and pressure it, this is a lot more obvious when you add in SR, potential Spikes and Sand. To list some of these moves: Mega Lopunny with Fake Out and Quick Attack, Mega Medicham with Fake Out and Bullet Punch, Mega Pinsir with Quick Attack, Mega Scizor with Bullet Punch, Weavile and Mamoswine with Ice Shard, Weavile also has Pursuit to completely remove Naga from play if needed. Zygarde with Extreme Speed, Bisharp with Sucker Punch. All of these moves go a long way in showing how how frail Naga is and how easily it can be picked off thanks to its frailty.
Your list is basically everything that deals with Pheromosa already plus Scarf Greninja -- your whole focal point of this paragraph is grossly misleading given what you follow up with and generally untrue in the scheme of things. Going through this list, the only true consistent RKers of Nagannadel are legitimately Scarf Greninja and Ice Shard users. The others need significant chip, like over 50% of Naganandel's health gone (pretty much every other priority user you mentioned), are things you should not be relying upon for counterplay (Hawlucha + terrain lmao), or do not even do the trick more often than not (Scarf Tapu Koko). Nobody should be convinced by this point at all and your comparison to Pheromosa is invalid.

2. mimimimimimi toxapex is finally manageable, pls don't ban Naga noooo!!!
I mean while having a TSpike absorber for offense is really nice and I will be the first person to agree, but this is absolutely no reason to keep Naganadel in the tier. If something is broken, then you ban it. This means that if Naganandel is an issue right now, it should go, but also that if Toxapex or Regenerator or Toxic Spikes or whatever you might think would be problematic in the future is broken, then we should also ban that. Keeping Naganandel in the tier to provoke some broken keeps broken in check is never ideal and your entire point promotes that idea. Ftr I/nobody else said we will never entertain Toxapex, just not rn w/ other things clearly taking priority. But yea, this point is not doing it for me either.

3. The immediate overreaction to Naga's presence in the tier. This is an odd one, the Pokemon wasn't even released for a day, yet people were claiming it was 100% mandatory to have AV TTar or SpD Heatran to beat it, I've played 70+ ladder games of USUM at 1800+ elo and have not used a single AV TTar or Heatran, this claim is completely false and it's just a case of builder-paranoia which puts everything into a vacuum and can make anything look like a legit threat if you look at it in the right way. I will even provide a list of all the teams I have used so far and can confirm that all of these teams work perfectly fine, despite not having any of the """"mandatory"""" Pokemon required to beat Naganadel.

It's funny because I've played roughly 150 games on the ladder and I feel that if I lack AV Tyranitar, SDef Heatran + removal, or like Ditto Veil, then I am clearly weak to Naganandel and it is not even too easy to play around because if it gets a kill and an NP, then it just fucking wins a ridiculously high amount of the time. The proportion of games this thing sweeps is at an unprecedented high compared to even other broken Pokemon in the tier and it is no fluke, nor builder's paranoia -- it is the fact that there is not sufficient counterplay on either side of the spectrum (offensive or defensive) to Naganadel and the fact that with smart play it can work around even that sometimes (smart play cannot really be assumed or argued, however, so I do admit that there are some games where Naganandel is kept in check).

I find it funny that you're going like "ok look I don't have this problem practically everyone else is and here are my teams to prove it" without actually explaining how you manage to work around it. For example, your first team is weak to Naganadel no matter how you look at it, but it can probably get away with only losing 1-2 Pokemon or so if you play it well with priority, I suppose. The others have actual counters or checks for the most part, but that's the point -- if you don't use one of like Stakataka, which is rare outside of Trick Room and will fall in usage even more as time elapses, AV Tyranitar, which I assume yours are if you don't want to lose to Naganandel, or SDef Heatran, which I also assume yours are, then you can very well be fucked without having much control over things. I think you are legitimately proving my/other pro-ban points by showing these teams, if anything. In addition, I feel like you are trying to gloss over the true issue and just saying "ok here's my perspective and here are my teams and I do not find it troublesome, so listen to me for I have a name and can spread an opinion without justifying it" at this point because I really fail to see how this translates to it not being broken just because you claim it is no problem to you and your teams that pretty much all happen to have Heatran, Stakataka, or Tyranitar.

4. Defensive answers. Albeit defensive answers are a little harder to find due to Naga's immunity to Toxic and ability to blow through all Unaware users, there's still viable options out there, SpD Tran is very solid at limiting Naga, as well as AV TTar (this mon isn't particularly good but it's found a niche in the tier so that's something, just because something encourages something out of the ordinary doesn't mean we should jump the gun!). There's also Chansey which gets off 2 tosses leaving it very weak and Naga doesn't even come out with a guaranteed kill vs it, so interpret that however you want. Ditto has also seen use on bulkier teams, it's by no means mandatory, but it's an extremely good Naga deterrent, and in general is VERY effective in this offense-heavy meta we currently have.
edit: I also forgot to mention Stakataka which is very self explanatory as it can live +2 Fire Blast and +2 DDrake and set up Trick Room in Nagas face or just OHKO it with Gyro, which is a huge deal against most of the teams you'll find Naga on.
Ok, I mean I more or less agree that there are these small handful of defensive answers, but this does not mean it is manageable and the fact that the metagame is so restricted/centralized around them just kinda is a testament to how bad Naganadel is. Also, Chansey needs TWave to actually be a soft-check to Naganandel, but if it has that or is paired with strong enough priority, then you at least cut your losses to 1 Pokemon + getting it RKd or forced out after, which is fair enough (although stall teams often lack those means, which is what the main problem is seeing as Naganandel throws traditional stall in the dumpster).

5. It's one dimensional. Scarf, Specs, and Life Orb are mediocre compared to Dragonium Z, granted they can always pick off random kills with surprise factor despite being bad, this can be applied to any high tier OU Pokemon. On top of this, after the meta has been given time to actually develop a bit, Pokemon are accommodating for it more, things like Keldeo are running Icy Wind more, other things like Natures Madness Bulu is more common and is very nice for punishing Naga considering how freely it comes in (another good point about Naga, it keeps some extremely annoying Pokemon in check like Bulu too). Also, for those that have been playing the ladder lately, you'll be familiar with the ridiculous amount of Trick Room teams on the ladder which generally hinders Naga teams a ton too.
Sorry, but can you please explain why the fuck it matters that it is one dimensional if the one dimension is clearly broken??? Like shit man, if the Nasty Plot Z-Draco Meteor set breaks the tier, then it should get banned. There's no real care in the world for me how the other sets are, even if I do personally think they lack in comparison (still very viable, just not nearly as ridiculous). I do think the metagame would adapt a bit around Naganandel if it had to, but it would be insanely unhealthy and specific to the point where the tier loses a lot of the diversity, creativity, and variation that we previously were developing a great amount of after the Arena Trap ban. You could argue that gimmicky archetypes like Trick Room and Webs would gain usage, sure, even opening up an outlet for minor innovations, but at the end of the day there will never be a balance or any form of highly competitive tier attained when Naganandel is the centerpiece of just about everything and you have to use one of a very few things or go wayyyyy out of your way from generally optimal means in order to cover it. Your whole plea here is an extension of your Toxapex point, leading me to believe that you just want it in the tier to be a departure from previously established norms. This just isn't how it works, however -- we do not keep things that are broken for the sake of changing the tier up. We ban them and then look to improve the metagame afterwards in order to get the changes we truly do need.

With all that said, I really do not think Naganadel is a broken force in the tier, and rather should be welcomed as a fine addition to the tier, nerfing Toxapex which made the SM meta stale and extremely centralised around it for the longest time, making for a fine buff to offense. I think its sweeping capabilities are weaker than Magearnas, mostly due to the lack of versatility in comparison. Magearna has the potential for 5 different Z-moves in its sets, and 3 forms of set up, and an incredibly useful defensive set too, and has the most powerful scouting punishing capabilities in the entire tier.
With all that said, I disagree with just about every point you made and I think your wanting to keep it in the tier stems more off of avoiding the metagame state we had during late SM as opposed to actually looking to move forward and improve the tier. Perhaps you should be preaching for us to ban Naganadel and then look into suspecting Toxapex afterwards instead of what you're doing now if you feel this way, just a thought.
 
On a serious note, OTR Stakataka seems to go pretty well with Mega Heracross, which works under trick room and resists ground and fighting attacks while Staka murders any fairy mon standing in the way for Mega Hera (and laughs at flying attacks). Throw a Slowbro in the equation with Psychic for Toxapex and Scald for Landorus as well as being reliable enough to keep TR up while also having good synergy (takes water and fire attacks; Staka and Hera provides Knock Off/U-turn and some grass protection) and it seems a pretty great core to work with.
 
This Kartana set is really good!


Paper Kutz OP! (Kartana) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Night Slash
- Sacred Sword
- Leaf Blade

With Z-Tailwind, you not only get a tailwind up, but you increase your critical hit ratio. I swear I got a crit with every leaf blade and night slash and even got a couple of sacred sword crits.
 
With Z-Tailwind, you not only get a tailwind up, but you increase your critical hit ratio. I swear I got a crit with every leaf blade and night slash and even got a couple of sacred sword crits.
That might be because after the 2 stage boost from Z-Tailwind, Leaf Blade and Night Slash do crit every time. Sacred Sword, which lacks the 1 stage crit-rate boost that Leaf Blade and Night Slash have, will crit 50% of the time.

This is indeed a fun set but it's kind of a gimmick, especially since the Speed boost from Tailwind doesn't last long enough to facilitate a sweep usually, and the damage output is noticeably lower than a typical Swords Dance set.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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As it currently stands, the tier has banned too many Pokemon that beat Toxapex, increasingly making it harder, if not NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to punish use of it, and it doesn't seem like a Toxapex ban is on the councils slate, despite nearly all of them hating it and agreeing its not a healthy presence (???), I don't get it.
Okay so now that I'm apart of the OU council I'm going to try and fix the most common issue that seems to come up about the council, which is transparency. I've been a part of the OU community since early BW, and can definitely say that the council/community interaction has always been quite shit, and is only really applicable during suspects, because the council is basically forced to post at that point (it's still better now than it ever has been tbf). But after seeing posts like the one above where people are basically just putting words into the councils mouths or making bold assumptions, it definitely makes me want to change this. Unfortunately the loud minority does exist and ruins a chance at more disclosure, because some people just gotta ruin it for everyone else and take one small thing that may or may not be 100%, and make a huge deal about it. But, regardless, I can definitely help improve council/community involvement by trying to keep you all updated, or I can just peer pressure the rest of them until they submit or kick me off ez -outl. Don't ask for name disclosures or shit cause that's not gonna happen. Privacy.

I was not around during this time but Discord logs are a thing, and as a matter of fact, a Pex suspect was indeed discussed not too long ago, during October. Many council members deemed it to have a very overbearing presence on the metagame due to its ability to basically blanket check 90% of the tier while also being able to provide a ton of support with T-Spikes, which were very good at the time. However, Snake tour was going on, and right after Snake ended, USUM was basically a few weeks away. After Naga gets quickbanned, which is pretty much guaranteed to happen at this point unless a council member all of the sudden completely flips for some reason (all council members as of now are very adamant on a QB), and after the meta settles a bit, it could potentially come back up, who knows. So yeah, Pex is not off our slate. It's just not a priority when Naganadel is in the tier, and we are not going to keep Naga around to avoid a Pex suspect. That's just dumb.

tapu koko and lele have been broken along with at least 5 blatantly obvious mons minimum that make this tier incredibly awful to invest any sort of real effort or time in. That revenge kill logic is so surface to begin with, its used as a point to justify banning stuff to in terms of team constraint and Im beginning to hate that logic when we flip flop on what should be banned or not based off of a situational aspect of revenge killing that is never certain. Im on my phone so long posts arent fun to type out, but the status quo of OU needs to change before there can be any sort of true balance in the tier. A lot of the points mentioned in p2s post directly or hint towards this.
I was going to delete this post but considering Finch and a few other people already had good responses to this I felt like I'd rather just leave it to set an example. I'm not entirely sure why it got so much support considering you literally stated no evidence to back up your extremely controversial claims; I honestly can't remember the last time Koko and Lele have ever been brought up as being broken un-ironically. Like it's one thing to actually sit down and actually write a well thought out post to explain your controversial claims, much like p2 did, but nah you just basically admitted you were too lazy to write up a worthwhile post because "phone" and proceeded to post it anyway. As Finch said, if the meta truly isn't worth investing time in, than I'm not sure why you even care about trying to "save" it, or at least ATTEMPT to make it clear what you think needs fixed. Making such an insanely bold claim such as, "council gotta change the entire status quo to make the tier balanced" and then not listing anything is like, actually arrogant as shit my dude. Like bro I see posts like this all the time, but not by someone who was a former OU Mod, council member, and well respected contributor such as yourself. It kinda just sets a bad example don't you think?

Don't think any amount of badges can protect you from having your post being treated the same as someone with 1 post and 2 day join date, so hope y'all keep that in mind before you think it's okay all the sudden.
 
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i don't see the point in aggressively piling on AM's post considering he was seemingly echoing p2's sentiment that certain fundamental aspects of the tier need to be improved. i don't think that's such an outlandish claim. with that said, i'm not going to support or oppose any of these claims right now because i want to see how certain things change with the additions in USUM.

in SM (i got back into it post duggy ban), i've noticed some pokemon that are borderline broken and just really unhealthy for the tier. i don't think these things were bannable or even suspectable simply because of the volume of them. i've discussed this with a lot of people, and my point of view is that gen7 is fundamentally different from gen6 for more reasons than just simple mechanics changes. gen7 is a fundamentally more "wild" meta due to some really "one-sided" and/or unpredictable threats and the introduction of z moves. there are some super powerful threats that are pains to deal with like volcarona, zygarde, kartana, tapu koko, offensive magearna, z move landorus-t, and even toxapex. ok pex isn't a "threat" like those are, but it was/is just a stupidly annoying and unhealthy pokemon that makes the game unfun as fuck. in ORAS (the only other meta i've played a considerable amount of), there were some obnoxious threats like this (zard-x, mega metagross, mega medicham, mega lopunny), but i don't think they were as difficult to combat or prep for. additionally, more "unconventional" playstyles weren't as prominent (webs, tr, rain, veil).

i'm not trying to speak for AM, but as someone who was also really big into ORAS, i can say that i agree with him about things just feeling fundamentally off because i am still not used to how fundamentally different things are. building in gen7 requires a bit of a different mindset: things are much less formulaic, and surprise answers seem to be even more potent than gen6. i don't think these fundamental differences make for a meta with an awful status quo. a more "wild" meta has its merits, and i wouldn't say things are unbalanced. still, i think there comes a point where certain things are just a bit too much.

naganadel is a great example of what is too much. i didn't like the toxapex dominance that p2 outlined either, but i don't want the solution to that to be keeping around a blatantly broken offensive threat that totally dominates and centralizes the meta in such an unhealthy way. i don't think av ttar is a fundamentally bad set, but when that, ditto, and aurora veil are rising to greater prominence, i don't think we're seeing a very competitive or balanced meta in the slightest. yes, this pokemon is quite one dimensional, but as others have pointed out, this one dimension is broken as fuck.

i want to see how the meta is with naganadel gone (which seems inevitable at this point lmao), and i want to take a step back and ask if what we have is just a bit too wild still. i do want to see how some of these offensive threats and toxapex are with the new additions of USUM in a more reasonable environment (aka one without naganadel). i think it'd make more sense to discuss these things at that point rather than during the unstable af meta we have now.

edit: stop suppressing my anti mods bullying am145 sentiments >:[[
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
i don't see the point in aggressively piling on AM's post considering he was seemingly echoing p2's sentiment that certain fundamental aspects of the tier need to be improved. i don't think that's such an outlandish claim. with that said, i'm not going to support or oppose any of these claims right now because i want to see how certain things change with the additions in USUM.

in SM (i got back into it post duggy ban), i've noticed some pokemon that are borderline broken and just really unhealthy for the tier. i don't think these things were bannable or even suspectable simply because of the volume of them. i've discussed this with a lot of people, and my point of view is that gen7 is fundamentally different from gen6 for more reasons than just simple mechanics changes. gen7 is a fundamentally more "wild" meta due to some really "one-sided" and/or unpredictable threats and the introduction of z moves. there are some super powerful threats that are pains to deal with like volcarona, zygarde, kartana, tapu koko, offensive magearna, z move landorus-t, and even toxapex. ok pex isn't a "threat" like those are, but it was/is just a stupidly annoying and unhealthy pokemon that makes the game unfun as fuck. in ORAS (the only other meta i've played a considerable amount of), there were some obnoxious threats like this (zard-x, mega metagross, mega medicham, mega lopunny), but i don't think they were as difficult to combat or prep for. additionally, more "unconventional" playstyles weren't as prominent (webs, tr, rain, veil).

i'm not trying to speak for AM, but as someone who was also really big into ORAS, i can say that i agree with him about things just feeling fundamentally off because i am still not used to how fundamentally different things are. building in gen7 requires a bit of a different mindset: things are much less formulaic, and surprise answers seem to be even more potent than gen6. i don't think these fundamental differences make for a meta with an awful status quo. a more "wild" meta has its merits, and i wouldn't say things are unbalanced. still, i think there comes a point where certain things are just a bit too much.

naganadel is a great example of what is too much. i didn't like the toxapex dominance that p2 outlined either, but i don't want the solution to that to be keeping around a blatantly broken offensive threat that totally dominates and centralizes the meta in such an unhealthy way. i don't think av ttar is a fundamentally bad set, but when that, ditto, and aurora veil are rising to greater prominence, i don't think we're seeing a very competitive or balanced meta in the slightest. yes, this pokemon is quite one dimensional, but as others have pointed out, this one dimension is broken as fuck.

i want to see how the meta is with naganadel gone (which seems inevitable at this point lmao), and i want to take a step back and ask if what we have is just a bit too wild still. i do want to see how some of these offensive threats and toxapex are with the new additions of USUM in a more reasonable environment that doesn't include naganadel. at that point, i think it'd be a lot more reasonable to point out things.

also don't bully AM or i'll fuck yr shit up >:[
No one is bullying or aggressively piling. Obviously if someone comes in here and starts saying shit about the council needing to change fundamental aspects on tiering without providing any real evidence other than calling the meta something not worth investing time in or explaining why such things are an issue, council members are going to defend their stance. Fact of the matter is, posts stating such bold claims as that one need real hard evidence to back up their claims and half assing it, just don't fly in here. P2's post had legit hard evidence and compelling arguments to support his unpopular opinion, which is why it was a good post even if I don't agree with most of what was said. Quit trying to point fingers at council members for addressing out the obviously huge flaws in such a post. You can view it as "aggressively piling" sure whatever, but we aren't just going to keep quiet about something we so heavily disagree with, especially when there is barely anything helpful to take from that post, and it sets a bad example.
 
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That might be because after the 2 stage boost from Z-Tailwind, Leaf Blade and Night Slash do crit every time. Sacred Sword, which lacks the 1 stage crit-rate boost that Leaf Blade and Night Slash have, will crit 50% of the time.

This is indeed a fun set but it's kind of a gimmick, especially since the Speed boost from Tailwind doesn't last long enough to facilitate a sweep usually, and the damage output is noticeably lower than a typical Swords Dance set.

it doesnt sweep, but it gets rid off a lot of mon. In late game, it can pretty much garantee to kill any mon against it late game; since the majority of mon already lost tons of Hp. In addition, its speed isnt bad at all, so unless one of the last mons alive is a fast offensive mon, you can still continue to hit hard even without the tailwind boost. Also, Kartana has 131 defense, so it can still stand even after the tailwind ends and can set another tailwind for its team. However, I am not that high on the ladder, so it might not be that good.
 
I'm not the most experienced with the USUM meta (who is at this point?) but personally I thought the end of the SM meta was almost perfect in high level play.
Hyper Offensive teams were strong, based around strong cores like Koko + Hawlucha, good sweepers like Ash-Greninja and Volcarona, and a general lack of consistent hazard removal that would prevent consistent sweeps.
Bulky Offensive teams were strong, with sets like Stall Breaker / Utility Heatran, CB Ttar, CM magaerna, and of course OU's flagship pokemon, Lando-T.
Stall teams were slightly weak, but still very much played in high ladder (1900+) due to their ease of use and continually creative teambuilding. Sets like Whirlpool Tapu Fini with wish support emerged to beat CelePex.
Trick Room was moderately strong, with the Uxie/Cress/Crawdaunt/Mawile/Marowak/Magaerna team copy and pasted for a bunch of players that was actually pretty strong.
Rain was moderately strong, with an easy template of Rain Sweepers Swampert + Kingdra and the Koko/Hawlucha offensive duo.

My point is, I feel that USUM has upset the old SM in good ways. This includes more Defog options so that your hazard removal isn't just Excadrill/Latios/Fini, and new fun sweepers to use in creative ways with Stakataka and Blace that shift the meta in their own way, but still allow a balance of playstyles to thrive in relative harmony.

Nagandel completely upsets this balance. The NP Z-Draco set is a massive threat to traditional stall, being able to blow by both Chansey and the unaware duo. It also can blow its way through Rain teams without too much preparation or thought, and can even outspeed rain sweepers with Beast Boost. Bulky Offense and Balance are extremely limited in teambuidling, practically forced to run Mamo, SpecDef Heatran, or AV Ttar (None of which I consider true counters, with how easily they get worn down or chipped). Hyper Offense needs ice shard priority or Scarf Greninja, otherwise it simply loses. Naga on its own invalidates certain playstyles and very heavily constricts others. To be honest, I think Mega-Metagross and Lando-I both deserve suspect tests if this thing is allowed to stay in OU. I think they all restrict teambuilding to about the same point. I'm not sure if a Quick Ban or Suspect Ban of Naga is the best route (Because I'm pretty confident a suspect would get > 80% easily), but once this things goes I think the meta will settle back to a much more comfortable equilibrium.
 
I've been lurking in OU forum since I've played VGC for a long time and that's my first post in Smogon. I was decided to play some games in USUM OU. The OU metagame is become crazy and unpredictable due to z moves and move tutors. Naganadel is a pokemon that's too much in the metagame, what Naganadel push over the edge is able to set up Nasty Plot and receive the speed boost from Ultra Boost ability which it's become almost zero counterplays in offensive teams. You are forced to use AV Tyranitar, SpDef Heatran, Ditto, Thunder Wave Blissey, Ice Shard users and some things I forgot to order to not lost to Naganadel which all of them is grounded to take damage from spikes and Heatran can get trapped by pursuit Tyranitar. Naganadel in Sticky Web or Aurora Veil team is really scary to play against. Some people comment that Naganadel is one-sided dimension, it doesn't matter because it's too good at what it's suppose to do. All of my teams in my teambuilding have AV Tyranitar, SpDef Heatran, scarf Greninja and Magearna to not weak to Naganadel, I feel Naganadel is really constricts teambuilding and metagame. Hopefully Nagadanel can get the fuck out of the OU as soon as possible so this metagame can have a direction to the healthy and balance metagame.
 
In my 3 years or so being in OU, I don't see how AV Tyranitar or Max SpA/SpD Heatran would be bad. Now Naganadel constricting teams is not a worry for me, because an Occa Berry Magearna could one shot it, or a scarf greninja, or even regular greninja if the opponent isn't on top of their game. If anything, it caused me to innovate, and to think outside of the box, something Mega Meta, Mega Luke, or Landorus T ever caused me to do, partially because they were broken beyond belief, and because something had 41 or so percent usage. If I could raise my ELO, I'd vote no to the suspect that never happened. And one last note, we can easily defeat Lando Incarnate with OU Pokemon, so why isn't it OU yet?
 
we can easily defeat Lando Incarnate with OU Pokemon, so why isn't it OU yet?
Been around the scene since BW and I will say that I'm adamantly against Landorus-I dropping back down.

Admittedly, there are a couple Pokemon that seem to theoretically defeat it; Mantine, Mega Latias, and Celesteela in particular come to mind for some, I'm sure. Problem is, Landorus-I seems to have just the right movepool in just the right places, able to swap specific moves out for other options to hit potential switch-ins. Take Mantine, for example; an all-out Special Attacking set is walled pretty well by Mantine, sure, but what if the user forgoes a move (Psychic, for example), goes mixed, and uses Rock Slide? It's boosted by Sheer Force, mind you, and is a guaranteed 2HKO without rocks, while boasting a 37.5% chance to OHKO it with rocks (assuming Landorus-I has 0 Attack IVs, neutral nature, and Mantine is using the Mixed OU wall set).

If Rock Slide would be a worry, just switch Gliscor or Landorus-T in, right? Not the case. Landorus-I can simply run Hidden Power Ice and, despite no Sheer Force boost, threaten to KO either one with it.

Now Defensive Celesteela and Latias do a decent job keeping it at bay, but now we have a third issue; Landorus-I can ALWAYS forgot a move for U-Turn to pivot into a check without losing momentum, bringing in something that can handle them better and...now what do you do? Landorus-I goes away until it's needed again and you're now paired up against a different Pokemon (if Landorus-I WERE in OU, I'm sure Magnezone would be an easy partner specifically to remove Celesteela and sometimes Mantine). Not to mention, Mega Latias is taking a decent bit from U-Turn, enough to make it more susceptible to checks like Tyranitar, Weavile, etc.

Defensively, not too much was added that could easily switch into this monster (all calcs above we're assuming Life Orb). Landorus-I's checks all depend on what moves it would be running, something that can and has been a problem with it since it received Sheer Force in BW2, as it has plenty enough moves to switch between to take opponents off guard any time they needed.

inb4 Uxie and Cresselia, but I don't want to mention extremely niche Pokemon since they're typically relegated to one specific type of playstyle, anyways. Plus, if using a fringe niche is the defensive answer to an overpowered Pokemon, it only makes it look better since one would have to use subpar options in order to defeat it (see AV Tyranitar vs Naganadel for the most recent example).

What about offensive threats?

Well, Ash-Greninja comes in as a check, for sure, being able to outspeed both Life Orb AND Choice Scarf variants thanks to Water Shuriken. Ice Shard users like Mamoswine and Weavile definitely threaten it like before. Anything generally faster, of course, threatens Landorus-I, like Mega Lopunny, the aforementioned Greninja, and Tapu Koko. The problem with faster Pokemon?

Sticky Web. This one hazard can single handedly negate faster checks and neuter multiple attempts at Revenge Killing, as Landorus-I will now outspeed whatever would naturally outspeed it before Webs (mind you, it's quite a list since Base 101 Speed is not entirely shabby).

I know much of this seems like theorymoning--admittedly, some is. Newer Pokemon and generally newer threats wouldn't have been tried in practice because it's been gone for so long now; how would one be able to properly test that without a form of a Suspect Test? In the case of Mantine and Celesteela, I have to use some of that (after looking calculations up, of course) in order to form an opinion on how they'd handle Landorus-I in a theoretical situation.

The way I currently see the state, Landorus-I should not drop. Just because it would threaten Toxapex (not saying you said it, but I'm saying this before somebody else brings it up) doesn't mean it should be allowed back.

It's 4 in the morning and I might've made a couple mistakes in my post. Will likely make minor edits later.

tl;dr There were extremely few new threats added that scare off Landorus-I and it would still wreck the meta. Keep it out.
 

zbr

Criss crossed into another dimension.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
In my 3 years or so being in OU, I don't see how AV Tyranitar or Max SpA/SpD Heatran would be bad. Now Naganadel constricting teams is not a worry for me, because an Occa Berry Magearna could one shot it, or a scarf greninja, or even regular greninja if the opponent isn't on top of their game.
so you either need your opponent to be off their game? or sack a mon for revenge killing / pseudo revenge killing with whatever the fuck occa magearna is? AVtar literally couldnt do anything in an EQ / fighting spam environment other than just being a fat mon to set sand and try to absorb special hits. you cant tell me all of a sudden its "good for 3 years".
If anything, it caused me to innovate, and to think outside of the box, something Mega Meta, Mega Luke, or Landorus T ever caused me to do, partially because they were broken beyond belief, and because something had 41 or so percent usage.
cool. so you play a mon that counter 1 of such mon (let's call it x) and if your opponent doesnt run x, you have a pretty much dead weight on your team. thats a good idea? people used to defend that weezing and arcanine were good mons to use cause they solely countered mega mawile back in ORAS, but that doesnt detract from the fact that are better mons to run that do their job more optimally other than being just a sole dedicated mega maw counter.

idk man, this whole "i can use shit mons to do very dedicated stuff in OU" is the largest scream from the OU metagame that it needs some fixing and looking into.

no thoughts on the whole naganadel thing going on at the moment since i need a lot more play testing with him but majority of the points being brought up about it being OU worthy are just slippery slopes and end up falling apart when looked into it further so that kinda tells you how more scrutiny should be used when touching this subject of naganadel
 
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On phone rn so excuse potential sloppy grammar and pacing while I post my thoughts on big N

What pushes Naganadel over the edge imo is beast boost, because it's kinda like arena trap where counter play becomes limited to non-existant.
Like against normal setup sweepers you can just stay in and attack to prevent setup (or at least severely punish setup), so even if they don't setup and instead just kill ur mon, at least u don't lose like 3 mons and you can go out to the next offensive threat and gain momentum from there.
Beast boost (in Naga's case at least) puts immense pressure on the opposing team and kinda forces them into a lose-lose situation with the threat of setup. (which is why I believe choices sets are mediocre in comparison, you can't take advantage of beast boost as efficiently since u lack setup)

Like you can't just stay in to prevent setup because Naga just dumpsters you, gets the speed boost and sweeps your team. And you can't switch out because Naga just sets up, z-dracos your "check", gets the speed boost and sweeps your team.
Obviously it's a 50/50 but it's HEAVILY in Naga's favour. And what happens when u predict correctly? Either Naga gets a strong hit on your check, only to switch out and repeat the same 50/50 later on, OR you get massive hit off when Naga plots (or kill it, but most of the time Naga isn't setting up in front of a Lando or something), take a massive hit in return from draco-z and probably die which frees up room for the rest of Naga's team. There's really no winning scenario unless your opponent decides to be ballsy and setup in front of your lando as u EQ or something.
This explains the sudden surge of AV tar and spd Tran (among others). The pressure of Naganadel setup is so immense that you need the most counter-teamy type of mons just to minimize the threat of it (I say minimize because there is no single mon in OU or below as far as I'm aware that can 100% counter Naga - not even super niche ones!)

It kinda reminds me of Pheromosa back when people were running pex on their offense teams (lol) just because of the immense pressure she put on offense.
Idc what anyone says, AV tar is an unmon and is proof of Naga's overbearing chokehold on the metagame.
"but AV tar is not just for Naga it's a great check to a plethora of special attackers" yeah and so is bandtar but it also has the ever so slight benefit of shredding everything in its path with its ridiculous stab coverage. IDK I guess it does have a niche but it just seems dumb to me that some people think its a good set outside of checking Naga.

But ye, Naga = filthy, get it outta here asap.
 
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I just wanted to mention that mimikyu also counters the most common naganadel set. you need a z-move or lo and your disguise to not be broken to do so, but it nevertheless does the job.

Aside from that, I agree that there are a lot of 50/50 when playing with naganadel. It doesnt have a lot of Pokemon to Setup, so one often has to hope for the opponent to switch to get the np off.
 
I agree that Naganadel is a ridiculous mon that will go out of the tier soon. This is just a godsen for Hyper Offense.

But.... it have to be followed by a Toxapex, as well as Landorus-T (which have outstaye his welcome in OU. No Pokémon should be allowed to be that used since it was released) suspect test to give OU a new breath of fresh air.

I'm actually more concern by Landorus-T more than Naganadel. Landorus-T lacks reliable universal counter. Fighting against Landorus-T is a 50-50. If you predict the wrong set out the 6 sets Landorus-T can effectively run, you'll get smacked by it. It restrain teambulding in a sense you must pack something against it (same for Toxapex and Naganadel). Its presence in OU is as unhealthy as Naganadel.

In my opinion, no Pokémon should be allowed to stay in the S Rank that long without getting smacked by the banhammer.
 
I've used Fightinium Z OTR Stakataka in a sand team, and it works surprisingly well so far.
The SpD boost from sand helps it a lot and allows it to easily counter Naganadel, it can come in, set up a TR and start sweeping.
Thanks to Fightinium Z, Ferrothorn is easily dealed with, which had been the most popular switchin against Stakataka so far. Without the Z-Move, Ferro easily tanks a Superpower, avoids the 2HKO with Leech Seed recovery and I get annoying stat drops.
Far more annoying is Toxapex of course, and Skarmory, which only takes ~60-70% from +1 All-out pummeling.

A great partner is Tapu Bulu, which resists all of Stakataka's weaknesses and provides Grassy Terrain support to weaken opposing Earthquakes. The Skarmory problem however remains; I'n considering replacing one of my team members with a Magnezone to deal with it
 
Here's why I don't think Naganadel is broken
We all owe a great deal of thanks to p2 for basically providing the only thoughtful opposition to quick-banning Naganadel from the tier.

For those who do not understand why gratitude is justified: Good decisions are the result of high-quality debate and high-quality debate is the result of rigorously exploring all possibilities. Even if you disagree on a personal level it’s important to understand how the community benefits as a whole. Unfortunately, the knee-jerk reaction to this thing in OU and corresponding vitriol towards anyone that does not preach for its immediate demise suggest his efforts were futile.

It stands to reason that members of the community who previously may have offered us a valuable contrarian perspective are unlikely to do so after reading this thread. Given USM has been out for a whole 5 days, there is very little downside to taking a step back while things cool off a bit.
 
I agree that Naganadel is a ridiculous mon that will go out of the tier soon. This is just a godsen for Hyper Offense.

But.... it have to be followed by a Toxapex, as well as Landorus-T (which have outstaye his welcome in OU. No Pokémon should be allowed to be that used since it was released) suspect test to give OU a new breath of fresh air.

I'm actually more concern by Landorus-T more than Naganadel. Landorus-T lacks reliable universal counter. Fighting against Landorus-T is a 50-50. If you predict the wrong set out the 6 sets Landorus-T can effectively run, you'll get smacked by it. It restrain teambulding in a sense you must pack something against it (same for Toxapex and Naganadel). Its presence in OU is as unhealthy as Naganadel.

In my opinion, no Pokémon should be allowed to stay in the S Rank that long without getting smacked by the banhammer.
Landorus-T has 6 viable sets, but you can narrow it down easily by looking at meta trends and the opponent's team. If Lando is the only possible SR setter on the team, you can assume that it's not Scarfed, whereas a Magnezone partner suggests that it is, as it needs Skarmory and Celesteela gone. Flynium Z is common, while Rockium Z and Earth Plate sets are almost non-existent (at least on the ladder). Zygarde and Garchomp's (and Gliscor's?) presence indirectly keeps it in check, since most Pokemon that check them can also check Lando.

qways: Mimikyu is only a check to Naga, and a very shaky one, since it can only switch in on a NP or Draco Meteor.
 
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